2016 F1 Constructor tech info/development thread. (READ 1ST POST)Formula 1
- Thread starter LMSCorvetteGT2
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LMP1 cars have larger cockpits, and any air being ducted in is factored into the design of the car. Here, we're talking about much tighter confines, meaning that there is less air in the cockpit to begin with. And there are further questions that need to be asked - how do you deal with the air ducts being blocked? How does a driver escape if the car rolls? What happens if the canopy is damaged but the car is otherwise unaffected?
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- HamiltonMP427
Teams if we pretend that Williams of current has never been nothing more than a Mercedes customer team. But that's an evil lie.
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I can't see any data on Mercedes flowing back to Ferrari from Williams. They might have Massa and Smedley, but they were cut loose by Maranello. They weren't placed.
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LMP1 cockpits was just an example. For comparison sake, you're right, they are quite a bit larger than an enclosed F1 cockpit would be. That said, there are plenty of vehicles that have closed cockpits which are very small. Fighter jets, Formula 1 Powerboats, and Top Fuel drag cars would be some examples.
You mention that in an LMP1 car, the air being ducted into the cockpit is factored into the design. Why would it be any different with an F1 car?
Like I said before, I don't think air in the cockpit would be that big of an issue. For one, it's not a sealed, airtight space, and two, there are engineering solutions already in use which could be adapted onto an F1 car. If there was even a hint of airflow in the cockpit being an issue, they would very quickly adapt a breathing mask like what fighter pilots wear.
As far as the ducts being blocked, I think that is a pretty elementary engineering problem that has been solved many times over. What happens if the "air ducts" on a fighter jet get blocked? Answer, they don't, because they've been engineered to not get blocked.
If the concern is that they could be blocked in an accident, I think you're over estimating how sealed the cockpit actually would be. No one would be in danger of suffocating due to running out of air in the cockpit.
How a driver escapes when he roles over? First, do the drivers now "escape" when the car rolls? I can't recall a roll recently where the driver escaped without assistance. The first place I would look is top fuel drag racing. Some of those cars have full canopies, so I would see what procedures they use for getting a driver out of a rolled vehicle. F1 Powerboats deal with it while the cockpit is submerged under water when a boat flips, so I'm sure the F1 brain trust can figure out how to get it done on dry land.
I don't really understand the last question, about the canopy being damaged but the rest of the car being fine. What happens when a wing gets damaged? You either fix it and continue, or you retire. The canopy is just another piece of the car, no different than all the rest of the pieces.
I'm repeating myself, but I really don't think air in the cockpit would be an issue. Heat would definitely be a factor. With the heat, moisture in the cockpit might be an issue, with the inside getting fogged up; but again, there are engineering solutions to this.
I think the tear aways would be an issue as well, especially with how much rubber, along with bugs and dirt, would be splattered on the canopy. I don't know how many tear aways a driver typically goes through in a race, but it definitely more than the 1 or two you'd be able to pull off a canopy during a pit stop. An engine blow, resulting in oil spraying all over a following cars canopy, could become a major issue. At the same time though, that can happen in any form of tintop racing, and they just deal with it.
Lastly, just to be clear, I'm not really advocating, or pushing for closed cockpits. I just think some people are getting a little alarmist, making claims of "it can't be done," when it very well can be done. I actually would prefer if the cars stayed open cockpit, I think they look badass that way. From an engineering perspective though, a fully closed cockpit is very doable, and far from the toughest engineering task asked of F1 designers.
I own 402 cars....in Gran Turismo
Do you want to do this all night?
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If I am being genuinely honest, I think canopies are wrong for Formula One. I think they're a massive over-reaction to a problem that cannot be cured, and misrepresented as a solution to a problem that has been over-stated. Jules Bianchi's accident was a tragedy and an avoidable one at that, but the regulatory changes introduced after his death are more than sufficient to counter the issue. If you want Formula One to be absolutely, perfectly safe, the solution is simple: ban it.
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Both ideas that have been put out there don't look like good ideas. A fully enclosed cockpit has more risks than positives, and that halo device by Mercedes looks like it would be a hazard to driver vision and be cumbersome to deal with in the event that the car lands upside-down after a rollover.
If they do anything, they only need to go as far as creating a shroud that protects the drivers by stopping just above the crown of the helmet and is angled in a way that any potential debris won't strike a driver's head.
If they do anything, they only need to go as far as creating a shroud that protects the drivers by stopping just above the crown of the helmet and is angled in a way that any potential debris won't strike a driver's head.
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- mustafur
I think the design of the car handling a canopy is a non issue, we have teams here with 100+ million dollar budgets they would have the capability of designing something that handles it, however the safety of releasing the driver and such has to be sorted first before it should be implemented.
I would be In favour of such an idea mainly because it would be a much more Aero efficient design and provide much more revolutionary design measures and that appeals to me when it comes to F1.
I don't fall into the category of people that think closed cockpit isn't F1, I think closed wheel would be more of a change in direction of it's routes then that as the category is defined by being an open wheel series(even though closed wheel has been done before).
I would be In favour of such an idea mainly because it would be a much more Aero efficient design and provide much more revolutionary design measures and that appeals to me when it comes to F1.
I don't fall into the category of people that think closed cockpit isn't F1, I think closed wheel would be more of a change in direction of it's routes then that as the category is defined by being an open wheel series(even though closed wheel has been done before).
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- TenEightyOne
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- mustafur
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- pezzarinho17
My understanding was that they wanted the opposite of "maximum speed" since those tyres would only be good for 1 flying lap. I know what they mean though when they want a set of tyres they can abuse for a stint / race length and never fear "the cliff" or even worse, failure... But THOSE tyres would be much harder in compound, offering less grip...
Basically, I'm not sure Pirelli can win this one. Maybe they should just do both?! That or we lose control tyres altogether and let teams spend the time and money researching and developing race tyres.
Basically, I'm not sure Pirelli can win this one. Maybe they should just do both?! That or we lose control tyres altogether and let teams spend the time and money researching and developing race tyres.
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Very good point. Like I said, I'm not pushing for cockpits, just keeping an open mind. I definitely agree it is an over reaction to Jules, as sad and unfortunate as his accident was (I think Massa's incedent from Imola is part of it too).
I'm a firm believer that in many ways, F1 over reacted to Senna's and Ratzenberg's. All the good tracks were butchered, and we saw the rise of the Tilke-drom and paved runnoff. 20+ years later, we're trying to figure out how to make the sport exciting again, because people are finding it boring to watch cars race between two parking lots. I may be wrong, but Im pretty sure I've heard claims made that, with a modern F1 car, and modern crash protection like SAFER Barrier, or a similar system, a corner like Tamborello wouldn't even be an issue today (side not, the Tamborello Chicane is, IMO, one of the better chicanes in all of racing. It's tricky, challenging, and rewarding when done right).
So it would be a shame to knee jerk to losing Jules, and then look back 20 years from now and say, "Ya if we would have been a little patient, we could have found better solutions than a closed cockpit. Oh well, too late to turn the clock back now, I guess open cockpit will forever be a memory."
Buuuuut, thinking about what @mustafur said, eventually, whether its F1 or something different (something crazy like F-Zero
), the fastest racing things on the planet will have closed cockpits. As speeds increase, the aero benefit of a closed cockpit would be too much to ignore. So if that change is going to come eventually, why delay the inevitable.
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- mustafur
Taking out one of the biggest drag elements of the car would have a massive effect on the entire cars aero balance, the cars would need a near complete redesign from top to bottom to get the best from it, that alone would make things interesting by it self, given it would change soo much we would see distinctly different cars with their own design to handle the challenge, and combined with an open-ish engine war would allow teams with a worse off engine to claw back huge time not possible at present.
Aero development has stagnated alot after the first years of the 2009 Aero change, this would change things dramatically and most likely more then we have seen in the last decade or two.
Aero development has stagnated alot after the first years of the 2009 Aero change, this would change things dramatically and most likely more then we have seen in the last decade or two.
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Woops my bad, it's early, the coffee is still brewing
Edit: day two of tire testing
Everything seems back to normal. Vettel at the top, then Kvyiat, with Vandoorne spending a large amount of time in the pits chasing a problem.
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- TenEightyOne
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Pirelli wanted to test drying conditions today. Yesterday was heavy wet conditions. It's very possible his fastest time came near the end when the track was at it's driest in the session.
These testing times mean absolutely nothing anyway. 2015 cars on conceptual 2016 wet weather tread, which may not even be the final pattern/compound.
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I realise yesterday and today's number mean little to nothing. Just a little light hearted, off-season banter in the context of the order we saw yesterday, with a McLaren faster than a Ferrari (which again, in reality, means nothing).
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- HamiltonMP427
What the hell are you talking about?
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- pj-gm
- PJwasHere876
It's not unfair or ridiculous to demand a tyre compound that won't rip to shreds or quickly become several seconds slower if you try to push them beyond a lap or 2. I remember in 2011, at the Chinese Grand Prix, the Mercedes drivers complained about the tyres overheating and being damaged if you tried to take turn 1 full speed, in qualifying.
Think back to the Bridgestone tyres in 2010 that were grippy, and durable, so durable that the softer compounds could easily manage most of a race distance, without ultra conservative driving. Unfortunately these tyres didn't cause much on track action that we see nowadays thanks to the more drastic differences in tyre grip that will occur between cars during a race in this Pirelli era.
Pirelli should be aiming for a middle ground, where the tyres won't fall off a massive cliff or be extremely fragile, are still fairly grippy, but won't last a whole race distance like the Bridgestones. I think the drivers are tired of this era characterized by saving fuel and tyres above all else and never being able to push as hard as possible.
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- HamiltonMP427
Eh, I don't know why you'd use probably the most ill managed car when it came to tires on the grid for about 2 to 3 year (11-13). Mercedes at that time always had issues with tires and especially at more of the humid or hotter tracks than any where else. This wasn't so much Pirelli as just bad balance engineering on the cars. Also Bridgestones were built and asked to be built to a different standard. The problem you don't seem to hit at, is that of the FIA and FOM, the FIA mandates a specific quick wear tire and the FOM seems okay with this due to it providing a "show" rather than real racing.
Even if they wanted middle ground, which I think isn't even radical enough, scare them due to repercussions. Also your middle ground still would at some point call in for conservation at some point of the race.
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The tyre performance cliff will return in 2016:
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2016/...1-tyres-will-have-prominent-performance-peak/
From the sounds of things, Pirelli are creating tyres where the drivers can push to get the most out of the tyre, but they can't be reckless about it. They seem to be trying to balance the demand for "maximum attack" whilst still punishing mistakes.
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2016/...1-tyres-will-have-prominent-performance-peak/
From the sounds of things, Pirelli are creating tyres where the drivers can push to get the most out of the tyre, but they can't be reckless about it. They seem to be trying to balance the demand for "maximum attack" whilst still punishing mistakes.
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- HamiltonMP427
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/a...re-rules-help-ferrari-topple-mercedes-670597/
Finally Ferrari go with the better front end suspension. Push instead of Pull rod after all these years.
Finally Ferrari go with the better front end suspension. Push instead of Pull rod after all these years.
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Teaser of the new Renault ahead of tomorrow's team launch:
Rumours are flying around that McLaren will also change their livery, reintroducing silver for a West-style design, but it doesn't appeae to ge anything more than speculation dressed as fsct.
Rumours are flying around that McLaren will also change their livery, reintroducing silver for a West-style design, but it doesn't appeae to ge anything more than speculation dressed as fsct.
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- pezzarinho17
Black and yellow for Renault once again then, no blue and yellow as was one of the rumours.
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Black and yellow have always been their colours. They only ever used blue because it was a Mild Seven colour. The rumours that they would return to blue and yellow were fuelled by nothing more than nostalgia.
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I thought it was Formula E fuelled?
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That might have helped things along, but even when Renault were running back in 2010, there was talk of a blue and yellow livery. It's not a new rumour.
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- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
They're also Alonso's home colours (the Cruz de la Victoria), it was a nice tie-in.
Robin
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I just hope they don't do a rehash of the Bee style one they did just before they left F1, it looked so dated even then. I welcome yellow because we need more colour variety in F1, it would be great is all teams had very different primary colours.
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