2024 Formula 1 Constructors threadFormula 1

[GingerBredMan]

The problem is, as soon as you say 'you'll get this penalty for breaking this rule', the teams start calculating how to absorb the penalty and whether the advantage gained is better than the punishment. By leaving it open ended, it makes the punishment fitting of the breach.

However, Toto Wolff came up with a good point - if a team has massively overspent last year to gain an advantage, and massively overspent this year because it wasn't caught last year, then whatever punishment they receive at the end of this year, they'll still have a massive advantage next year unless they're excluded - which the FIA won't do for Red Bull because they're too much of a draw (and they'll find some legal way around it by declaring themselves a new team or suchlike).

Make the penalties severe enough that teams can’t strategize around them. They say a team can get excluded from a championship for a severe infraction, but I don’t see the FIA enforcing that for any of the big teams, especially the one that just won the wdc.

Some reports are saying the 2 teams only had minor infractions. Another one says 1 team went over the cap by up to 10 mil. If a team did the latter, I don’t see how they couldn’t get excluded from last year’s championship at the very least. It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out given the FIAs ability to screw everything up.

 

[DG_Silva]

Make the penalties severe enough that teams can’t strategize around them. They say a team can get excluded from a championship for a severe infraction, but I don’t see the FIA enforcing that for any of the big teams, especially the one that just won the wdc.

Some reports are saying the 2 teams only had minor infractions. Another one says 1 team went over the cap by up to 10 mil. If a team did the latter, I don’t see how they couldn’t get excluded from last year’s championship at the very least. It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out given the FIAs ability to screw everything up.

The only way to avoid strategizing around the penalties is to make the penalties effective immediately.

One idea I had was that anyone who exceeds the budget cap will have the overspend deducted from this year's budget - if they overspend again, it comes off next year's budget compared the default budget. This means potentially that if a team overspent last year by £10m would have a '22 budget of £135m - if they've then overspent by £10m this year, then their budget for next year would be £115m (down from £135m original amount) for '23.

It means that those at the very limit of spending have to be much more efficient with their spending, or have to make extremely unfathomable sporting decisions (ie, not develop their car or not turn up to events) which would affect their ability to compete in the championship.

 

[GingerBredMan]

The only way to avoid strategizing around the penalties is to make the penalties effective immediately.

One idea I had was that anyone who exceeds the budget cap will have the overspend deducted from this year's budget - if they overspend again, it comes off next year's budget compared the default budget. This means potentially that if a team overspent last year by £10m would have a '22 budget of £135m - if they've then overspent by £10m this year, then their budget for next year would be £115m (down from £135m original amount) for '23.

It means that those at the very limit of spending have to be much more efficient with their spending, or have to make extremely unfathomable sporting decisions (ie, not develop their car or not turn up to events) which would affect their ability to compete in the championship.

I think the timing is a large part of the issue here. Not necessarily a bad idea, but in theory a team could just go over the cap every year and never deal with the punishment.

It doesn’t feel like there was a real plan for how to enforce this rule. If not this year, there will definitely be a year where the driver or constructors championship will have to be changed. Or as usual the FIA will find some way to weasel itself out of applying any real punishment, which we might get as early as Wednesday.

 

[ProjectWHaT]

Budget Red Bull: la talpa, la difesa, le regole poco chiare. Ecco cosa può succedere

Mercoledì è attesa la pubblicazione della Fia sui bilanci 2021. Ferrari e Mercedes chiedono punizioni pesanti in caso di sforamento

www.corriere.it

Article is in Italian. They cite a German source but they don't name it or link it, smh

Helmut Marko admitted this to the German media. «There are some points in which we have interpreted the regulation in a different way from the FIA, which is why we are discussing it. We have several companies, such as Red Bull Advanced Technologies, Red Bull Technology and Red Bull Powertrains. It is important for us to separate them very clearly in terms of personnel costs, ”said the Austrian consultant.

[...]

Talking about precise figures is a bit misleading as it is all a question of how the Federation will want to interpret the rules. However, there would be six more macro-costs that the supervisory body of the motorsport top series would like to include in the budget and that Red Bull would not have included. «If the FIA will consider only two, then we will be under the budget limit and also by a lot. For this reason, what you read around are completely absurd numbers, ”said Helmut Marko. However, if the FIA considered them all, there would be talk of an overrun that could even exceed 10 million dollars.

It sounds like Red Bull has been using their multiple different subsidiaries as a way to funnel money into their F1 program as a way to workaround the FIA's cost caps, but the FIA believes these should be included in the cost cap.

This is going to get messy, because either the FIA can side with Red Bull, thus allowing this and unleashing a wave of companies from other teams. Or, they say Red Bull is in the wrong, thus they will have to severely penalize them for going over the cost cap. Even then, they can't just forget all of the IP they have gained and built on by going over the cost cap last season

 

[GingerBredMan]

Budget Red Bull: la talpa, la difesa, le regole poco chiare. Ecco cosa può succedere

Mercoledì è attesa la pubblicazione della Fia sui bilanci 2021. Ferrari e Mercedes chiedono punizioni pesanti in caso di sforamento

www.corriere.it

Article is in Italian. They cite a German source but they don't name it or link it, smh



It sounds like Red Bull has been using their multiple different subsidiaries as a way to funnel money into their F1 program as a way to workaround the FIA's cost caps, but the FIA believes these should be included in the cost cap.

This is going to get messy, because either the FIA can side with Red Bull, thus allowing this and unleashing a wave of companies from other teams. Or, they say Red Bull is in the wrong, thus they will have to severely penalize them for going over the cost cap. Even then, they can't just forget all of the IP they have gained and built on by going over the cost cap last season

It’s funny that a few days ago Horner was threatening to sue for defamation

If they are indeed over the cap, and this is their explanation for it, throw the book at them. There’s no way they could think it was legal to do this.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I can't really see the FIA doing much now for 2021 if they deem that Red Bull is massively over budget. Most extreme I could see is Red Bull being stripped of the constructor's championship.

Then they would have to consider the effects on this year. It seems like a whole can of worms about to be opened.

 

[Roo]

There’s no way they could think it was legal to do this.

Since when did legality matter to an F1 team? What matters is not getting caught.

 

[GingerBredMan]

Since when did legality matter to an F1 team? What matters is not getting caught.

Hard to argue that one

I think tomorrow is gonna be all about who is accused of what, and how the FIA will inevitably fumble it.

 

[Samus]

Big fine and slap on the wrist. We know from the Ferrari engine legality the FIA of today won't hand out any significant punishments like they used to with Spygate and such. Not to the big three anyway.

 

[Fezzik]

F1 cost cap: Red Bull's 'major breach' rumour a result of 'mischief making'

A report has claimed that, if Red Bull are found to be in breach of Formula 1's cost cap at all, their overspend will only be a minor one.

www.planetf1.com

Both sides spinning for all their worth. Waters are so muddy now, no one will be satisfied by whatever the outcome is.

 

[Samus]

We could be waiting a while. Or not. Maybe. Nobody seems to know what is going on.

 

[Fezzik]

I still want to know how Aston Martin went overcap, if the rumors are all true, and were still so mediocre. Even a minor breach is supposed to be worth significant time, according to Ferrari.

 

[NICKname]

I still want to know how Aston Martin went overcap, if the rumors are all true, and were still so mediocre. Even a minor breach is supposed to be worth significant time, according to Ferrari.

Because Aston Martin are building a new factory that is going way over budget, but also because Ferrari (as well as Mercedes) is high on an mixture of hopium and industrial grade salt and would do anything to get Red Bull DSQ'd.

 

[SestoScudo]

Because Aston Martin are building a new factory that is going way over budget, but also because Ferrari (as well as Mercedes) is high on an mixture of hopium and industrial grade salt and would do anything to get Red Bull DSQ'd.

Just like Redbull who complained about Ferrari cheating in 2019.

Redbull should look at its own backyard.

They will win this year still wont get the respect they deserve like Ferrari and Mclaren.

This statement from Ayrton Senna says it all.

 

[Samus]

I still want to know how Aston Martin went overcap, if the rumors are all true, and were still so mediocre. Even a minor breach is supposed to be worth significant time, according to Ferrari.

See: Toyota F1 team.

 

[NICKname]

Just like Redbull who complained about Ferrari cheating in 2019.

Redbull should look at its own backyard.

You missed the point so much that I thought you were Latifi for a second. I never said Red Bull is any different.

Just like Redbull who complained about Ferrari cheating in 2019.

Redbull should look at its own backyard.

They will win this year still wont get the respect they deserve like Ferrari and Mclaren.

View attachment 1197963

This statement from Ayrton Senna says it all.

I do not even remotely care about what Senna thought of Ferrari. It is completely irrelevant to anything I (ever) said. And aside from that, Senna died before Red Bull ever was a popular drink, let alone a Formula 1 team.

 

[McLaren]

You missed the point so much that I thought you were Latifi for a second. I never said Red Bull is any different.

No, but your statement doesn't fool anyone here, either. A "mixture of hopium & industrial grade salt" is definitely coming in defense of the side you quite clearly play favorite towards as is your overly defensive comment about him being "Latifi".

The fact is Sesto was 100% correct whether you were making the argument or not; Red Bull would have the exact same amount of "hope & salt" if they were Ferrari or Mercedes.

 

[GingerBredMan]

Looks like the results are delayed until Monday. I’m not gonna act like I’m not biased on this, but it feels like something sketchy is going on.

 

[SestoScudo]

You missed the point so much that I thought you were Latifi for a second. I never said Red Bull is any different.

I do not even remotely care about what Senna thought of Ferrari. It is completely irrelevant to anything I (ever) said. And aside from that, Senna died before Red Bull ever was a popular drink, let alone a Formula 1 team.

Thats the thing with redbull when other teams start to dominate they cry foul so many times.

Redbull will never get the same respect as Ferrari, Mclaren or Mercedes for that matter.

The Ayrton Senna quote says it all about Ferrari.

Redbull is a team that will come and go. While Ferrari and Mclaren will be staying. Not to mention how fans nowadays miss Ferrari vs Mclaren is a testament to these two teams.

Funny how the salary cap got mentioned redbull proceeds to say shut up about it means something is up.

Redbull is going to be bought out by Honda mark my words they insulted Porsche they also think building an F1 engine is easy which will take years dont be surprised if its marked by delays.

I doubt Honda will give everything even with its advisory role.

Redbull thinks too highly of itself. Will see how far that will get them.

 

[Fezzik]

As someone with no allegiance in the fight, the arguments here, Twitter, Reddit, etc are absolutely hilarious.

It's more entertaining than some of the races. I just want Leclerc to win, so by all means kick out Red Bull.

 

[McLaren]

The only way I see RBR leaving is with the current RB owner under dire health concerns & the heir/s going in a different direction if he passes. RBR has been far too successful to just dip, esp. with Max on a healthy new contract.

I think Honda buying RBR is a big pipe dream. They pulled out of the sport & are barely there supplying engines as it is. I can’t see Honda thinking, “Actually, we want back in and we’re buying a Top 3 team”.

 

[Samus]

Cynical but I bet they've purposely delayed it for more "drama" over another race weekend.

 

[EngieDiesel]

I wouldn't be surprised if they just drag their feet on it until the off season and then settle it behind closed doors so we never really know the extent of what's done. This really feels like something where protecting the image of the sport will take priority over actual rules enforcement or punishment.

Or maybe I'm just overly cynical too, either way really.

 

[toastet]

View attachment 1197963

This statement from Ayrton Senna says it all.

 

[NICKname]

Thats the thing with redbull when other teams start to dominate they cry foul so many times.

...did you forget where this "argument" started? Mercedes and Ferrari are crying foul right now, remember? Entirely based on a rumor.

Redbull will never get the same respect as Ferrari, Mclaren or Mercedes for that matter.

The Ayrton Senna quote says it all about Ferrari.

Still entirely irrelevant, still a quote from a man who has been dead for almost 30 years.

Funny how the salary cap got mentioned redbull proceeds to say shut up about it means something is up.

Confirmation bias is hilarious, to be sure.

Redbull is going to be bought out by Honda mark my words they insulted Porsche they also think building an F1 engine is easy which will take years dont be surprised if its marked by delays.

Why would I trust you on Red Bull being bought out by Honda if you clearly don't know what happened between them and Porsche? They also clearly do not think building an F1 team is easy, which is why they wanted to team up with Porsche in the first place. It's also why they stole a bunch of Mercedes employees.

Redbull thinks too highly of itself. Will see how far that will get them.

Maybe you should just type up a general list of complaints about Red Bull and post it somewhere? Most of the things you mentioned still have nothing to do with the point I was making. It kind of just sounds like you were offended by the suggestion that Ferrari and Mercedes are actively pushing for Red Bull to be punished as harshly as possible just so they can pick up the competitive scraps.

Every F1 team does this. None of them are above it. Racing Point protested Renault's supposed usage of driver aids at the 2019 Japanese GP and got both drivers disqualified. They gained nothing from it, not only because they barely gained any points from it but also because they're midfield teams and no one remembers who finished 6th and 7th in a random GP like that. The year after that, Renault and a bunch of other teams jumped on them and protested their "Pink Mercedes". One of those teams was Ferrari, who were severely uncompetitive and regularly slower than Racing Point in 2020.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I've thought about it for a bit and I've come up with the perfect FIA solution if Red Bull is in breach. 100 place grid penalty for both cars

That way FIA can pretend they handed out a severe penalty and neither last year's or this year's championships are affected.

 

[MagpieRacer]

I've thought about it for a bit and I've come up with the perfect FIA solution if Red Bull is in breach. 100 place grid penalty for both cars

That way FIA can pretend they handed out a severe penalty and neither last year's or this year's championships are affected.

Problem is the FIA and FOM (Ross Brawn in particular) have talked too much in the last about severe sanctions, including being kicked out of both drivers and teams championships. Now while they may not do thay, the possibility and expectation from certain sets of fans will be there. I personally wouldn't want them to do something now that would alter the 2021 championship, but if they do go for maximum punishment ss an example then there's no reason they couldn't do it with 2022. Granted there would forever be an asterisk next to whoever wins it in lieu of RBR and Verstappen but it would set a precedent.

Of course none of this may happen and they'll cop a €100 fine and get some wind tunnel/CFD running sanctions for next season.

Edit: and yes I know your post was tongue in cheek, just throwing my 2 cents in.😬

 

[Jimlaad43]

Red Bull will get a checks 2021 standings (585.5-(323.5+1)) 261 point penalty, Perez and Verstappen will get checks standings again (395.5-(387.5+1)) 7 point penalties each. Saying "Oh you did a bad thing" but in the end doing absolutely nothing. I'm almost certain that waiting for the result and gaps was the reason behind delaying Perez's penalty in Singapore, so we can be sure that this Budget penalty will also do absolutely nothing too except being a bit of convenient finger wagging.

 

[PeterJB]

Red Bull will get a checks 2021 standings (585.5-323.5+1) 263 point penalty, Perez and Verstappen will get checks standings again (395.5-387.5+1) 9 point penalties each. Saying "Oh you did a bad thing" but in the end doing absolutely nothing. I'm almost certain that waiting for the result and gaps was the reason behind delaying Perez's penalty in Singapore, so we can be sure that this Budget penalty will also do absolutely nothing too except being a bit of convenient finger wagging.

For sake of the sport's legacy and credibility, they will not deduct drivers' points that would change the outcome of a Championship settled almost a year ago.

 

[Jimlaad43]

For sake of the sport's legacy and credibility, they will not deduct drivers' points that would change the outcome of a Championship settled almost a year ago.

Ah yes, apologies. Needed an extra set of brackets, adjusted now. I meant for the points deducted to be 1 less than needed, not one more. The FIA will never change actual points positions, they just want to make it so it looks like they did something without actually doing something.