Abortion: Right or Wrong?
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Pako
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To get back on topic, I saw an interesting bumper sticker yesterday. It read,
"If it's not a baby, why abort it?"
Good question isn't it? People try to rationalize killing an unborn baby by saying it's not human (yet), give me a brake. The sad truth is that there are people who actually believe that.
"If it's not a baby, why abort it?"
Good question isn't it? People try to rationalize killing an unborn baby by saying it's not human (yet), give me a brake. The sad truth is that there are people who actually believe that.
- 3,194
Then lemme ask you this,... if an egg is removed from a woman, and they insert someones liver gene into it,.... the egg turnesinto a liver,.... it's called stem-cell research. There is a period of time that needs to evolve before the process begins. So, if the same process is neccessary for a fetus to develop,.. then what makes it a human before the beginning process is complete?
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The way I see it, you get one choice. You either choose to go down the path that gets you pregnant, or if you get pregnant without willfully heading that direction, you can choose to have an abortion. But you still have to live with the thought of taking a person's life.
Using birth control doesn't change the issue. You are still choosing to have sex. Sex makes babies, that's all there is to it. Knowing before having sex that having a child could kill you does not change the issue. You have still chosen to have sex. The only time a woman has not chosen to have sex is when she is raped. Then she may choose to have an abortion.
The problem would come that women wanting an abortion would just say they were raped, but not going to press charges. So the legal system would be circumvented. If you declare rape the state would need to be required to press charges against the male. Then you have the state taking on additional expenses. Wow, what a cluster-screw.
Here's an alternative. Allow abortion, which I am very against (for my own reasons) but force the woman to name the child and provide proper burial ceremonies.
Using birth control doesn't change the issue. You are still choosing to have sex. Sex makes babies, that's all there is to it. Knowing before having sex that having a child could kill you does not change the issue. You have still chosen to have sex. The only time a woman has not chosen to have sex is when she is raped. Then she may choose to have an abortion.
The problem would come that women wanting an abortion would just say they were raped, but not going to press charges. So the legal system would be circumvented. If you declare rape the state would need to be required to press charges against the male. Then you have the state taking on additional expenses. Wow, what a cluster-screw.
Here's an alternative. Allow abortion, which I am very against (for my own reasons) but force the woman to name the child and provide proper burial ceremonies.
- 3,194
Thoughtful,.. but the other side of the coin is,... how can you call it a human?
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How can you not call it a human? It is made up of everything that is required to make a human being. With time it will become a human being.
Fetus = human - (time + nurturing)
But killing a person is not my issue. We kill people all the time. I'll put my reasons for this in a new post ...
Fetus = human - (time + nurturing)
But killing a person is not my issue. We kill people all the time. I'll put my reasons for this in a new post ...
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I don't have an issue with abortion for the simple reason that I think they are killing a person before they are born. We kill people all the time.
My problem is that if you remove the natural fear of pregnancy that is related to sex you will change the meaning of sex. More people will be having sex openly with more partners and at younger ages. Sexually transmitted diseases will spread rampantly, rape will become more prevallent (especially 'date rape'), and youth will have an increased level of demoralization (as if peer pressure, older siblings, and television aren't bad enough already).
Forget about killing babies - by allowing abortion you push our society that much closer to self-implotion. Look what birth control did - children, I'm talking 12 to 16 years old, are having sex. There are children in middle school having babies because they thought a condom was enough to let them have some fun. If abortions are legal the problem just explodes. 15 year old boys will be raping girls because their fear of fatherhood will be removed.
It doesn't happen overnight, but within 10 years of you'll have a serious problem. When people aren't held accountable for their actions they cause bigger problems.
My problem is that if you remove the natural fear of pregnancy that is related to sex you will change the meaning of sex. More people will be having sex openly with more partners and at younger ages. Sexually transmitted diseases will spread rampantly, rape will become more prevallent (especially 'date rape'), and youth will have an increased level of demoralization (as if peer pressure, older siblings, and television aren't bad enough already).
Forget about killing babies - by allowing abortion you push our society that much closer to self-implotion. Look what birth control did - children, I'm talking 12 to 16 years old, are having sex. There are children in middle school having babies because they thought a condom was enough to let them have some fun. If abortions are legal the problem just explodes. 15 year old boys will be raping girls because their fear of fatherhood will be removed.
It doesn't happen overnight, but within 10 years of you'll have a serious problem. When people aren't held accountable for their actions they cause bigger problems.
Pako
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Please don't compare a human fetus with a liver. But for the entertainment value of it all, I will amuse your example.
Take an egg. Leave it alone. What does it do? Nothing. Lets wait some more, what does it do? Nothing. Oh look, 30 days pass and we have new eggs. We wait with these new eggs and still nothing. We add sperm to the egg. What will happen? What is the undeniable fact of what will happen once the sperm and egg combine? Life will begin, whether or not it goes full term or even survives the pregnancy. So whether or not an egg combined with a liver will make more liver, that really has absolutely nothing to do with it, other than if you chop it up youll have chopped liver, and if you leave it out on the counter youll have rotten liver.
So in conclusion:
Egg + Time = Egg
Egg + Liver + Time = More Liver
Egg + Sperm + Time = Human Fetus
Time is the constant here and cannot be altered. The only thing that we can change is the ingredients.
- 4
I believe that. A fetus is NOT a baby. It has no functional brain, feels no pain, has few or no motor skills, etc. If a fetus is a baby, it is a 99% dead baby. The only thing a fetus is is a shell in which a baby could form.
The thing is, you say that a fetus is a baby because given time, it will be a baby, like:
Fetus=baby-time and care
Well,
DNA=baby-time and care, too. If you take a cell from any part of a person's body, use the DNA to make a clone, and care for it, it will become a baby. Am I commiting infanticide every time I scrape my knee?
About the problem with abortion being that the consequences of unsafe sex are removed, here's a list of other things that we should ban because they remove the consequences of unsafe activities:
Seat belts--people might not be as scared about getting into accidents if they know they won't get hurt
Air bags--same reason
Brakes--People will just go faster if they know that they can slow down any time they want
Circus safety nets--those acrobats think they can get away with ANYTHING just because they have a net down there--we have to scare them into beings SAFE!
Etc.
Plus, if a kid rapes a girl because he thinks they can just abort it, he has some serious mental problems. If he rapes a girl, he's not going to stick around to make sure she aborts it. His only option is to not get caught. If he's found to have raped someone, paying child support will be the least of his worries.
If a kid has sex at a young age with only a condom and gets a girl pregnant, he is misinformed. That is a problem that could have been solved by the parents talking to the child in a calm manner about the dangers of sex--not saying "NEVER HAVE SEX YOU'LL JUST DIE!!!" but saying "If you do choose to have sex, I hope you do it with someone who you feel VERY comfortable with and love very much. Now, if you do choose to do this, you will have to know about STDs and pregnancy. The best way to prevent both of these is getting tested for STDs first," etc. etc. etc. Then maybe the kid wouldn't have thought he was safe with just a condom.
- 5,677
here are some answers to common questions:
When does the heart begin to beat?
At 18 days [when the mother is only four days late for her first menstrual period], and by 21 days it is pumping, through a closed circulatory system, blood whose type is different from that of the mother.
When is the brain functioning?
Brain waves have been recorded at 40 days on the Electroencephalogram
Only several generations ago, doctors used the ending of respiration to measure the end of human life.
This is no longer true, for the use of artificial ventilators is common. Only one generation ago, doctors were using the ending of the heartbeat to measure the end of human life. This is no longer true, for now the heart can be stopped and restarted for different operations. It also may stop during a heart attack and sometimes can be restarted.
Today, the definitive and final measure of the end of human life is brain death. This happens when there is irreversible cessation of total brain function. The final scientific measurement of this is the permanent ending of brain waves. Since all authorities accept that the end of an individuals life is measured by the ending of his brain function (as measured by brain waves on the EEG), would it not be logical for them to at least agree that individuals life began with the onset of that same human brain function as measured by brain waves recorded on that same instrument?
When are all his body systems present?
By eight weeks
When does the heart begin to beat?
At 18 days [when the mother is only four days late for her first menstrual period], and by 21 days it is pumping, through a closed circulatory system, blood whose type is different from that of the mother.
When is the brain functioning?
Brain waves have been recorded at 40 days on the Electroencephalogram
Only several generations ago, doctors used the ending of respiration to measure the end of human life.
This is no longer true, for the use of artificial ventilators is common. Only one generation ago, doctors were using the ending of the heartbeat to measure the end of human life. This is no longer true, for now the heart can be stopped and restarted for different operations. It also may stop during a heart attack and sometimes can be restarted.
Today, the definitive and final measure of the end of human life is brain death. This happens when there is irreversible cessation of total brain function. The final scientific measurement of this is the permanent ending of brain waves. Since all authorities accept that the end of an individuals life is measured by the ending of his brain function (as measured by brain waves on the EEG), would it not be logical for them to at least agree that individuals life began with the onset of that same human brain function as measured by brain waves recorded on that same instrument?
When are all his body systems present?
By eight weeks
- 5,677
yep
- 4
So what? Debate is fun. 
Just because body systems are present doesn't mean that they are functional.
Just because body systems are present doesn't mean that they are functional.
- 3,194
Very good perspective 👍
Thats the closests to a "moral" suggestion that I could ever maybe agree with.
So what is younger people are beginning to have sexual experiences? This simply shows teens that sex is not a bad thing! It's part of life. Abortion has NOTHING to do with it. Any smart teen would use some form of birth control in one way or another. And if some idiot gets herself pregnant, and decides to have an abortion because she can, it's her choice. So don't go off saying that birth control is a bad thing.
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Not everyone is intelligent enough to realize this. Infact, I would venture that 95%+ of youth have no idea the true consequences related to sex, spacifically unprotected. And children that young aren't going to be asking for condoms so you know that's what's going to happen.
Hell man, if you don't care that kids are having sex, why care about how old people are when they start driving. Lets give my four year old neiphew a car and let him go driving the streets. It's the same damn issue. Their life experiences and mental maturity haven't advanced enough to handle the situation properly.
IN GENERAL ...
Rules and laws are not created to stop people from doing something "bad". They are created to keep stupid people from destroying themselves or others. Intelligent people are capable of maintaining sane life without being instructed to do so. A law against abortion is to keep the stupid people from doing stupid things. The same as the law requiring the use of saftybelts in cars. Get a farking brain, damn you all each and every stupid person. It is because of you that I get a speeding ticket for 43 in a 30 at ONE in the friggen` morning. No one is around, yet stupid people can't drive safely during the day and speed limits are enforced 24 hours.
To answer this thread's original question, I do believe abortion is wrong because I do believe that the fetus they are destroying is a human life and I feel that unjust destruction of is wrong. It's my moral. However, it has already been declaired that this is a useless argument because no one will change their mind.
I suppose some of this is true. However, would you suggest we eliminate all forms of birth control just because it's causing kids to have sex? Birth control is one of the most important imventions of the last 100 years.
Also, I realized I never answered the abortion question either. I am pro-choice, mostly because of the simple fact that taking away the right to have an abortion is taking away someones's privacy, and right to control their own life.
Also, I realized I never answered the abortion question either. I am pro-choice, mostly because of the simple fact that taking away the right to have an abortion is taking away someones's privacy, and right to control their own life.
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I don't classify abortion as birth-control. Birth-control takes place before conception.
And again, I still believe a fetus is a human so the act of aborting a baby is controling more than their own life. The old saying "what about the baby's choice?" seems to apply here.
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The way abortion is handled in this country, yes, it is wrong. But sometimes it is necessary.
Make abortion harder for women who want to get rid of the baby just because they don't want to be "bothered" to have a child. The father MUST be considered. If he wants his child, then the woman should have no more say about the matter. She must have the child. If she didn't want to be bothered, then why did she have sex in the first place?
I have two boys. If either one of them was never born, because the woman had an abortion, I would have gone insane with anger, and I would have KILLED not only her, but the Doctor as well. That's why so many abortion Doctors are killed, and I can honestly say, I really don't care about the loss of them.
Yes, I would be jailed but why can a woman and a Doctor get away with taking a life so easily without my concent, and I can't? That whole " A fetus is not really a person." is just a buch of ****! It would be a "person" if only some selfish ***** gave it a chance to be.
Ok, I'll shut up now.
Make abortion harder for women who want to get rid of the baby just because they don't want to be "bothered" to have a child. The father MUST be considered. If he wants his child, then the woman should have no more say about the matter. She must have the child. If she didn't want to be bothered, then why did she have sex in the first place?
I have two boys. If either one of them was never born, because the woman had an abortion, I would have gone insane with anger, and I would have KILLED not only her, but the Doctor as well. That's why so many abortion Doctors are killed, and I can honestly say, I really don't care about the loss of them.
Yes, I would be jailed but why can a woman and a Doctor get away with taking a life so easily without my concent, and I can't? That whole " A fetus is not really a person." is just a buch of ****! It would be a "person" if only some selfish ***** gave it a chance to be.
Ok, I'll shut up now.
I don't consider abortion a GOOD form of birth control either. I think it's rediculous and selfish to use abortion to cover the mistakes you made. But the fact is, people ARE using it as birth control. SO, in a way, I suppose it is.
- 30
I'd like to have a word with gonepostal for bringing this thread back up. I think that the one guy who said that this argument is stupid because neither side is ever going to cave, and we're all saying the same things over and over had a point.
- 2,157
I'm pro-choice. I think in most cases abortion is wrong..but there are cases where I think a woman should have the choice. Ex: a girl gets raped or even worse...a girl gets raped by a family member...I think they should have to go to court and convince a judge that you need the abortion....also...if Abortion were illegal, it wouldn't stop people from getting them done...they'd just get them done illegally and I'd rather see them done in a Hospital than in some guys basement with a coat hanger or something.
- 244
I look at it from the childs point of view. Most likeyly if a couple is considering an abortion they cannot afford, dont want the baby etc. If you parents dont want the child then why should the child have to live knowing that he/she was an accident and wasnt' wanted. So I think abortion is okay under the right circumstances.
Pako
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Don't you think that life is worth more then a sympathy killing?
I mean, if your dog has rabies, you'd shoot it, but a child has so many more opportunities then you give it credit. Read "A Child Named It", this is a child that was NOT loved in anyway while he was growing up. Now he helps kids and families in similar situations. If he was aborted as a child, sure he wouldn't have suffered the way he did, but that suffering gave him the tools necessary to help others in similar situations.
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