- 5,198
- UK
- marunda/GTP_FordMKIVJ5
For some reason you keep missing what I'm saying: I wasn't asking questions, I was making 2 points one of which provides an answer to what you've just written.
ABS 0 community where are you???
- Thread starter CJSpencer77
- 535 comments
- 38,916 views
For some reason you keep missing what I'm saying: I wasn't asking questions, I was making 2 points one of which provides an answer to what you've just written.
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
For some reason you keep missing what I'm saying: I wasn't asking questions, I was making 2 points one of which provides an answer to what you've just written.
I must be high on caffeine, sorry, my bad, so are we in tune ?
- 5,198
- UK
- marunda/GTP_FordMKIVJ5
Yes. but I just don't agree with you.
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
- 5,198
- UK
- marunda/GTP_FordMKIVJ5
Which part ?
The part about pedals v.s. face buttons.
I think that the tester of your tune had faulty/uncalibrated pedals, added to the fact that the tune was designed for a controller, would account for the difficulties he was having. 👍
- 4,179
- Ottawa
It sounds like this pedal is not calibrated properly as in a perfect world 60% brake applied ( ie HUD brake bar filled to 60% ) should correspond to 60% travel of the brake pedal.
Getting 60% efficientcy out of 10% travel is prone to having difficulty controling the braking!!
That pedal set needs calibration. the progression should be 1 to 1 not .1 to .6
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
You can have a look at his whole test results here :
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7671711#post7671711
He did many laps with each car ( Cobra 427 ) from various tuners, all of them done with ABS:1, mine was tested with ABS:0 at the beginning, then he opted for ABS:1. He was using DFGT, which naturally works fine with PS3 and GT5.
The tune can be driven with any input device, other testers have no issues as long as the ABS is used. The BB is the only part needs adjustment according to driver's preference and driving style.
If he was to use a custom made brake pedal which have hydraulic system, or maybe even load cell and added some resistance, he might be able to brake with high BB without encountering too much issue.
Yeah, I felt that too when I read the comment he made. But if the progession is 1 to 1, why is that most pedal drivers have issues with braking with no ABS and high BB ? If 60% is the cap, all they need is to press the brake to halfway travel, easy task.
If the percentage of HUD correspond to the pedal travel, that would mean most pedal user can drive without ABS easily.
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- 6,001
- Finland
The full brake pedal travel of a G25 is 45 mm. Filling the bar 25% takes 10 mm, 50% 20 mm, 75% 30 mm and 100% 40 mm. It seems the last 5 mm is useless as the bar is already full at 40 mm. So there's complete linearity across the range and it's not my pedals at fault.
Simply put, brakes that won't lock up while still allowing me to use full pedal travel are usually 3/1 and 4/2 at most. Sure, higher settings can be used but what's the point in reducing the travel to half of the original, it's short to begin with and every mm of modulation is necessary. The problem arises when I'm using a BB of 3/1 and feel that I need more rear braking force, my only choice is 3/2 and after that I'm warmly welcomed to oversteer city because the rear wheels begin to lock up. Another option would be to use 4/2 but not only would the rears lock up, the fronts would too. It's possible that the best balance would be achieved with 5/2 but at that point I'd be down to roughly half of the pedal travel before the fronts lock up and hello Armco, meet my good friend Mr. front bumper. I don't doubt that it's possible to drive with a 20 mm brake pedal travel but it's something that should not be necessary.
People are quick to point out things like 2D trees but nobody ever dares to say that the brake balance settings suck big time (probably because the non-ABS crowd would crash the party with the "you just cant drive" argument and a lot of patting each other's back) and they break the game far more than cardboard trees. Driving with no ABS is certainly more involving and at times a lot more fun but with settings like this it can't be done properly. ABS 1 feels like real life ABS off, ABS 0 feels like summer tyres on snow.
Simply put, brakes that won't lock up while still allowing me to use full pedal travel are usually 3/1 and 4/2 at most. Sure, higher settings can be used but what's the point in reducing the travel to half of the original, it's short to begin with and every mm of modulation is necessary. The problem arises when I'm using a BB of 3/1 and feel that I need more rear braking force, my only choice is 3/2 and after that I'm warmly welcomed to oversteer city because the rear wheels begin to lock up. Another option would be to use 4/2 but not only would the rears lock up, the fronts would too. It's possible that the best balance would be achieved with 5/2 but at that point I'd be down to roughly half of the pedal travel before the fronts lock up and hello Armco, meet my good friend Mr. front bumper. I don't doubt that it's possible to drive with a 20 mm brake pedal travel but it's something that should not be necessary.
People are quick to point out things like 2D trees but nobody ever dares to say that the brake balance settings suck big time (probably because the non-ABS crowd would crash the party with the "you just cant drive" argument and a lot of patting each other's back) and they break the game far more than cardboard trees. Driving with no ABS is certainly more involving and at times a lot more fun but with settings like this it can't be done properly. ABS 1 feels like real life ABS off, ABS 0 feels like summer tyres on snow.
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
The pedal travel should have been doubled then, I wonder why manufacturer made them to have short travel
Full 100% should only happen when the brake pedal reach the bottom.Have you watched my high BB videos, I have 10/7 and 10/8 BB on the last few videos, maybe you can learn something, as I did trail braking very often. Have a look at how I applied brake force - the red brake bar on the HUD when trail braking.
Rotary Junkie
Premium
- 9,810
- Canton, MI
- RJs_RX-7
The pedal travel should have been doubled then, I wonder why manufacturer made them to have short travel
Maybe because in every PC race sim they're perfectly adequate?
I've never had an issue running without ABS in rFactor, GT Legends, GTR2, etc etc. In fact, ABS is pretty much pointless in them because there's no need for it. GT5 on the other hand you've got a choice between overly effective ABS (particularly on the rear) and a brake bias and brake-force-vs-input system that doesn't quite work.
Okay, so you can manage that with your modded controller. Good for you.
Still leaves the average DS3/Sixaxis or wheel user in the lurch. Sure, I could modify my pedals so that there's more resistance the further I go into pedal travel, I could do this, I could do that... But I shouldn't need to. The input-vs-brake-pressure ramp is wrong (ever notice how much braking force the minimum brake input actually applies?) and brake bias doesn't have the adjustment range it needs.
The worst part, for me at least, is that in the brake bias adjustment regard we've slid backwards since GT4. In GT4, bias was a 0-24 range, now it's 0-10. (GT3 was the same as GT4 but a brake setting of 0 was, well, no ABS oddly enough).
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
The only mod I made to my DS2 stick is replacing the rubber pad with another one from a newer DS2 and put some cushion behind the electronic board to make it more sturdy. If you have DS2 stick unused, you can try and experience what I have, you won't use DS3 ever again.
I agree, it's the game fault, GT5 has odd input vs brake pressure for pedals.
This is the main reason most ABS users reluctant to try no ABS
- 6,001
- Finland
No. It has perfectly linear application vs. input, save for the last 5 mm. I have no issues with the 40 mm travel, as RJ said, it's perfectly adequate when you can actually set the brakes up properly. If GT5 had either much wider setting scales (0-100 would be great) or a system like the one in LFS (braking force and balance set individually) the travel would be plenty enough.
Of course having, say, 100 mm of pedal travel would largely cure the problem as there would be 50 mm of efficient travel instead of the current 20 mm but in that case I'd be asking the same question with different values - why should I have to settle for 50 mm before locking up when I have 100 mm at my disposal? Why can't I use the full 100 mm? Because the brake setup sucks, that's why. And that's the main reason I don't drive with ABS 0, it can't be done properly. I've done enough testing to know that my lap times won't change noticably between ABS 0 and ABS 1 so there's little point in struggling with ABS 0 unless I absolutely have to.
Speaking about having to, I watched your videos. Then I tried the Zonda R myself and after four practice laps clocked a 2'39,757 so ABS 0 certainly isn't rocket science, it's just unnecessarily hard. With a better brake setup it wouldn't be nearly as hard as tyre grip could be used to full advantage.
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
My video still has 0 view for the Zonda
, anyway nobody is forcing you to not use ABS, I chose to not use ABS because I enjoyed the game more and I love to challenge myself. It does not matter which one is faster or easier for me, I prefer every assist that is switchable by the player to be off.Which is why I also prefer comfort tires over sports or racing tires when driving in free run on GT5.
- 4,179
- Ottawa
If we were living in a perfect world, there is a lot we should not need to do, but we are not.
Back in the real world and GT5 like it is, not perfect but extremely well done on many many aspects.
To enjoy it even more than we already did, some of us discovered than ABS 0 is ( for us ) a better GT5 experience, not surprinsingly, like with almost any thing in life when you reach for a little be more, it requires a little more effort.
In the case of ABS 0, it is dealing with the less than ideal braking proposition from GT5 and make the best of it, having fun driving and tweaking.
At the other end of the spectrum you have people enjoying GT5 with Racing Soft and Skid Recovery Force on. Somewhere in between there is ABS 1.
The question in this thread is not could GT5 have a better braking system and his PC gaming of any interest.
The question is are you enjoying GTS with ABS 0, why and what do you do to make it more enjoyable?
We will leave what should have been to an other thead
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- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
- 7,765
- Yorkshire
- ScapeGoat4U
- WhippingBoy
That sounds like a "hidden assist" to me!
If anyone of you ABS 0 guys can tell me of a car that has a noticable difference in handling with ABS off vs on, then I'd really like to try it.
At the moment, I can feel no difference at all in the general handling of the cars I've tried with it on vs off, apart from when under braking. As a result, I do not currently believe there are any hidden assist with ABS on.
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
That sounds like a "hidden assist" to me!
If anyone of you ABS 0 guys can tell me of a car that has a noticable difference in handling with ABS off vs on, then I'd really like to try it.
At the moment, I can feel no difference at all in the general handling of the cars I've tried with it on vs off, apart from when under braking. As a result, I do not currently believe there are any hidden assist with ABS on.
You can try my Cobra tune posted here :
Cobra 427 Azure Shootout Tune
and read the tester comment about ABS:1 and ABS:0 differences at Cote D' Azure, tested with DFGT wheel.
Tester result
Here is a snip of the comment :
"With ABS 0 the car is very difficult to slow down from high speeds. Either I apply to much brake and lock them up early in the corner or pre-corner, which forces me to back off too long while I wait for the tyres to be usable again. Or I overheat them later into the corner just before the apex, either throwing my nose in as the tail swings 'round or, much more likely, my nose goes flying toward the outside of the corner while my tail looks at it stupidly, unable to move.
With ABS 1 the car has a massive amount of under-steer that must be fought at every corner. If I try to go in hot and use the throttle to rotate the car my nose goes flying outside as the back end body slams the front. I would usually just say the front pushes under throttle but that just doesn't convey what this car does. If I go in warm or cool and try to throttle rotate the car my rear doesn't want to over-steer at first, then just as over-steer is initiated the rear tyres go liquid."
If in doubt, buy the car new, tune it like the one I posted and drive it with and without ABS at Cote D' Azur, tire : Sports Soft.
Hi drivers
I am driving with all assist off including ABS 0.
I find it more fun, without ABS.
The only car that make me use ABS 1 is the F1 or FGT car.
I race without ABS in all races except FGT/F1 car.
It's a different feel without ABS and i will never look back to ABS 1.
By the way i have been driving with ABS 0 for more than a year.
Come join the ABS 0 club
Do join our GT5 race in www.facebook.com/gtonestop
my PSN ID : GTP_VincentKhung
I am driving with all assist off including ABS 0.
I find it more fun, without ABS.
The only car that make me use ABS 1 is the F1 or FGT car.
I race without ABS in all races except FGT/F1 car.
It's a different feel without ABS and i will never look back to ABS 1.
By the way i have been driving with ABS 0 for more than a year.
Come join the ABS 0 club
Do join our GT5 race in www.facebook.com/gtonestop
my PSN ID : GTP_VincentKhung
- 7,284
- Inverness, Scotland
- GTP_PaulMac/paulmac2k9
Shameless plug but I have a Clio series that I am using No ABS in. ABS off on it really just adds a bit more fun into it. (Link in my sig, it's in interest checks for now but once I finish the OP I will move it.)
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
Seriously! Nobody?
These are the untuned cars that I often drive online, without ABS of course :
Cizeta V16T - CM tire
Ferrari F40 - CM tire
Lancia Stratos - CH tire
Ferrari 430 Scuderia - CM tire
Toyota GT86, Scion FR-S and Subaru BRZ - CH tire
Corvette Z06 C5 '04 - CM tire
Ferrari 599 - CM tire
Yellowhat YMS Supra - CM tire ( really great )
Most of them are driven during track day/practice lobby. I always restrict the tire to comfort only. Makes for great race with Super GT / JGTC cars.
Try them online with your preferred BB with ABS and without ABS, I find that the difference even more pronounced with wet track around 1% - 50% water on track, tire wear on and using comfort tires.
Try to drive without ABS 1st for a few laps until the tire heated up, then do some more until tire wear is about a quarter. Then enter the pit, change tire and enable ABS, see how it goes.
- 10,403
- GTP_Spag69
- spagetti69
Don't know where there gone?
Sent them out two days ago for a loaf of bread and they never came back.
Sent them out two days ago for a loaf of bread and they never came back.
- 4,179
- Ottawa
I still have to find a car where it does not make a noticeable difference, so if you do not feel it, you do not feel it, and if you don't, driving without ABS is of very little interest for you, that's OK.
Only thing I can say to try to help, is that it is more pronounced with the comfort tyres.
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- 7,765
- Yorkshire
- ScapeGoat4U
- WhippingBoy
- 509
- Nevada
- racing_JOHNSON
Love the no abs racing because of the feel and feedback given from it. Used to use 3/1 on the bb but started going up higher in the 6/4 and even 7/1 range now, just don't stab the pedal.
One problem is calibration of pedals. If you don't do it at times you will get the brake spike because if they are not calibrated and you use the pedal lightly coming into the first corner the game now acknowledges that the range you just used is 0 to 100 so the next application is LOCK. I always step my pedals through a full motion after wheel calibration, when leaving pits in autodrive, and during the race countdown.
I've been reading through the thread and I think the biggest problem with people on wheels having problems with no abs is actually two problems, their perception of what the brake pedal is and also due to the weak spring that the brake pedal has in it to start.
To fix the latter of the two I mentioned you would need a progressive rate brake spring. There is a company selling one but I am not sure what their name is at the moment. The second problem, the perception of the brake pedal I'll explain like this. You can go out to your car and stand on the brake pedal and there is a fair amount of movement all the way to the bottom of its travel. Now see how far you actually move the pedal to slow your car to a stop from speed, it's not the full travel. Standing on the pedal to the floor (all of the pedals travel) of a real car you are going to get abs activation or lock up which happens in gt5 when standing on the pedal.
Maybe the biggest fix would be the progressive spring mod, but getting into your head that just because the pedal goes all the way down doesn't mean it should or has to go all the way down for the braking you need at the moment would be helpful as well.
One problem is calibration of pedals. If you don't do it at times you will get the brake spike because if they are not calibrated and you use the pedal lightly coming into the first corner the game now acknowledges that the range you just used is 0 to 100 so the next application is LOCK. I always step my pedals through a full motion after wheel calibration, when leaving pits in autodrive, and during the race countdown.
I've been reading through the thread and I think the biggest problem with people on wheels having problems with no abs is actually two problems, their perception of what the brake pedal is and also due to the weak spring that the brake pedal has in it to start.
To fix the latter of the two I mentioned you would need a progressive rate brake spring. There is a company selling one but I am not sure what their name is at the moment. The second problem, the perception of the brake pedal I'll explain like this. You can go out to your car and stand on the brake pedal and there is a fair amount of movement all the way to the bottom of its travel. Now see how far you actually move the pedal to slow your car to a stop from speed, it's not the full travel. Standing on the pedal to the floor (all of the pedals travel) of a real car you are going to get abs activation or lock up which happens in gt5 when standing on the pedal.
Maybe the biggest fix would be the progressive spring mod, but getting into your head that just because the pedal goes all the way down doesn't mean it should or has to go all the way down for the braking you need at the moment would be helpful as well.
- 5,198
- UK
- marunda/GTP_FordMKIVJ5
In everyday driving, no you very rarely use the full brake travel. However to stop a car from 100+ mph quickly, you will need to stand on the brakes until you feel the wheels are about to lock.
The only time I use 100% travel in GT5 is for slowing the car into a corner following a straight, as I would with ABS, you don't need 100% travel all the time, just for slowing the car from speed.
- 1,337
- England
- woodski427
mikeonthebike
Yes, it's quite hard at first due to ABS based mashing. The sponge ball trick works surprisingly well though, resistance gets stronger the more it is squashed.
@VBR I think I was using a Honda Z at around 400pp, Comfort Med.
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