ABS 0 community where are you???

[Ridox2JZGTE]

"Entry was refused due to network incompatibility with the room owner [768]"

Damn ... this 768 error often happens to me when connecting other host, but now I have 2 drivers joined in at Nordschleife ....Looks like we can never play online or see each other in a room ...

 

[VolkswagenX]

I just started a abs 0 room for gt500 cars.
1472-6118-4130-9225-0598

 

[FordMKIVJ5]

A good way to see if high BB is used when driving without ABS is by looking at the red brake bar during replay, with high BB like mine, when I brake deep and hard, I never have more than 70% red brake bar filled and yet I can still out brake most ABS driver. Low BB will most likely fill 100%, more so with ABS driver.

Nobody is joining my track day room ...

The problem with running high brake balances is that you lose the element of control and finesse in turns that require trailbraking.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

The problem with running high brake balances is that you lose the element of control and finesse in turns that require trailbraking.

I agree to that for most steering wheel users, as the brake pedal are often have hideous sense of control and feedback. While in my case, I don't have such issue, I am using stick and it works very well for me. You can see that by watching a youtube video I posted several pages back in this thread.
It's a shame really that no ABS with steering wheel demands a pedal that rarely perform as it should without modification or expensive specialized pedal system.

The low BB number does have major disadvantages when not using ABS, longer brake distance, less brake bite in exchange for better control and precision for steering wheel users.

I made comparison long ago, BB value can be used to simulate the strength of old cars braking system, most of my vintage cars have low BB to replicate the old drum brakes, 2/0, 3/0 or 4/1 are common. Sadly this means that steering wheels users that have low BB when driving without ABS would be having the brake strength that is less than optimal, as less than 6 total value of BB means braking strength / bite will be severely reduced.

 

[FordMKIVJ5]

I agree to that for most steering wheel users, as the brake pedal are often have hideous sense of control and feedback. While in my case, I don't have such issue, I am using stick and it works very well for me. You can see that by watching a youtube video I posted several pages back in this thread.
It's a shame really that no ABS with steering wheel demands a pedal that rarely perform as it should without modification or expensive specialized pedal system.

The low BB number does have major disadvantages when not using ABS, longer brake distance, less brake bite in exchange for better control and precision for steering wheel users.

I made comparison long ago, BB value can be used to simulate the strength of old cars braking system, most of my vintage cars have low BB to replicate the old drum brakes, 2/0, 3/0 or 4/1 are common. Sadly this means that steering wheels users that have low BB when driving without ABS would be having the brake strength that is less than optimal, as less than 6 total value of BB means braking strength / bite will be severely reduced.

My DFGT pedal, although a bit lifeless, is fine for no ABS, you just have to learn to use your ears to listen to when the tyres are close to lock up and your hands to feel it. In fact I think that the brake pedal is easily a match for a stick.

BB values like 4/1 are not "low", you can easily lock up the brakes in heavy braking zones. The tenths/hundredths that you gain in heavy braking will be lost in the more complex corners because you simply don't have the same amount of brake travel with higher brake balances. 👍

 

[GTPLam]

You guys need to host more often! I wish GTP would make an online matchmaking section for drivers that want to find other ABS OFF rooms on the fly

The problem with running high brake balances is that you lose the element of control and finesse in turns that require trailbraking.

Well the general rule of thumb for realistic settings as covered here by most of the forum threads is to keep a 60/40 brake balance ratio and adjust from there. I usually never have my rear BB higher than 3 the most as I'm not skilled enough to drive with any value higher. But I think it all comes down to personal preference. Some people like to drive with high BB settings some like to drive with low BB and some in the middle. There's no right or wrong. It's almost neat to say that driving with high BB on a stock street car lets say, is watching how cool it can brake and behave like an F1 car or even outbrake one at times if it were possible.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

My DFGT pedal, although a bit lifeless, is fine for no ABS, you just have to learn to use your ears to listen to when the tyres are close to lock up and your hands to feel it. In fact I think that the brake pedal is easily a match for a stick.

BB values like 4/1 are not "low", you can easily lock up the brakes in heavy braking zones. The tenths/hundredths that you gain in heavy braking will be lost in the more complex corners because you simply don't have the same amount of brake travel with higher brake balances. 👍

Mmm, 4/1 is low if compared to the performance gained while using 9/6 BB, it made a world of difference to me, I can scrub off speed a lot faster and in shorter distance - comparable to ABS with high BB. This is very noticeable when driving a heavy car and low grip tires - sports hard or lower.

A good measure stick is the 1st chicane at Monza. During the last Italian Cars Monza TT seasonal, I was using 458 Italia, 550pp, SH tires, 10/6 BB. My brake point with the 10/6 BB is just right at 200M mark, I usually traveled at 171 mph, and enter the chicane at less than 50 mph. With lower BB, I would have to brake earlier.

If you are using 4/1 or 5/2, try to take any car at Monza, reduce the BB to 2/1 or 1/0, and notice the longer brake distance and less bite at high speed - even at the same brake force applied ( red bar on HUD )

Now, you said that with 4/1 you can still lock the wheels, I am curious how much of the red brake bar on the HUD is filled when this happens ? With stick, 4/1 BB, usually I need to fill at least 75% to 80% to lock up the wheels.

I have been hearing how hard to prevent lock up when using pedals, so I wonder if GT5 have different way to manage the input value when not using stick. For reference, 10/6 BB on 430 Scuderia in stock condition, online and CM tires, I can have the red brake bar HUD filled to 55% at most condition ( straight line braking and high speed ) before the wheels lock up, when trail braking, 25% is enough to upset car balance and eventually locking up when inside a corner.

 

[GTPLam]

Hmmmmm I'll try to share my experience and answer some of the questions since I'm used to a wheel more.

Well everytime I use a really high BB setting like 6/2 on a stock Ferrari F430 on Sports Hard for example I'm only allowed to press the brake pedal to about 30-40% before lock up; trail braking is impossible to do as well. That's why I mainly use 4/1, 3/1, 3/0, 2/1 for stock street cars like these. But then again going back to the same 6/2 BB value on a race car like GT500 Xanavi Nismo Z on Racing Hard tires is more practical and I can brake again up till 80-90% before lock up which is a realistic threshold for me. This for wheel users out there I don't know correct me if what I said is wrong

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Hmmmmm I'll try to share my experience and answer some of the questions since I'm used to a wheel more.

Well everytime I use a really high BB setting like 6/2 on a stock Ferrari F430 on Sports Hard for example I'm only allowed to press the brake pedal to about 30-40% before lock up; trail braking is impossible to do as well. That's why I mainly use 4/1, 3/1, 3/0, 2/1 for stock street cars like these. But then again going back to the same 6/2 BB value on a race car like GT500 Xanavi Nismo Z on Racing Hard tires is more practical and I can brake again up till 80-90% before lock up which is a realistic threshold for me. This for wheel users out there I don't know correct me if what I said is wrong

That is pedal travel, correct ? How about the percentage the red brake bar on the HUD ? How much is it filled until lock ups often happen ? It should be around 60 - 70 % during straight line braking with 6/2 BB F430 on SH. The red brake bar in the HUD is my reference as I can't measure button travel on stick controller

 

[FordMKIVJ5]

Mmm, 4/1 is low if compared to the performance gained while using 9/6 BB, it made a world of difference to me, I can scrub off speed a lot faster and in shorter distance - comparable to ABS with high BB. This is very noticeable when driving a heavy car and low grip tires - sports hard or lower.

A good measure stick is the 1st chicane at Monza. During the last Italian Cars Monza TT seasonal, I was using 458 Italia, 550pp, SH tires, 10/6 BB. My brake point with the 10/6 BB is just right at 200M mark, I usually traveled at 171 mph, and enter the chicane at less than 50 mph. With lower BB, I would have to brake earlier.

If you are using 4/1 or 5/2, try to take any car at Monza, reduce the BB to 2/1 or 1/0, and notice the longer brake distance and less bite at high speed - even at the same brake force applied ( red bar on HUD )

Now, you said that with 4/1 you can still lock the wheels, I am curious how much of the red brake bar on the HUD is filled when this happens ? With stick, 4/1 BB, usually I need to fill at least 75% to 80% to lock up the wheels.

I have been hearing how hard to prevent lock up when using pedals, so I wonder if GT5 have different way to manage the input value when not using stick. For reference, 10/6 BB on 430 Scuderia in stock condition, online and CM tires, I can have the red brake bar HUD filled to 55% at most condition ( straight line braking and high speed ) before the wheels lock up, when trail braking, 25% is enough to upset car balance and eventually locking up when inside a corner.

Personally I think that high brake balances aren't as fast, you are only gaining time in the split second it takes for the person with low BB to reach threshold, beyond that the person with low BB has more control to modulate the brake pressure and gains the advantage.

At Monza's first chicane with 4-2 (my default) I can hold 100% pressure for less than half a second before I have to ease the brake out, however in other slower corners I barely use 60%. Lock up can occur anywhere in the brake travel depending on my speed, at full speed I need 100% to lock but as I slow, If I don't feed the brake out properly, I can lock anywhere down to about 30-40%. 👍

I'd have also have said that braking with no ABS is actually easier with the pedals than stick. With the pedals you can modulate the brake much more effectively.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Personally I think that high brake balances aren't as fast, you are only gaining time in the split second it takes for the person with low BB to reach threshold, beyond that the person with low BB has more control to modulate the brake pressure and gains the advantage.

At Monza's first chicane with 4-2 (my default) I can hold 100% pressure for less than half a second before I have to ease the brake out, however in other slower corners I barely use 60%. Lock up can occur anywhere in the brake travel depending on my speed, at full speed I need 100% to lock but as I slow, If I don't feed the brake out properly, I can lock anywhere down to about 30-40%. 👍

I'd have also have said that braking with no ABS is actually easier with the pedals than stick. With the pedals you can modulate the brake much more effectively.

Threshold and trail braking are what you said here, I always do them when braking, apply high pressure when in high speed, modulate accordingly as I get a lot slower and trail brake into the corner. High BB offer a lot less room to play before lock up set in.

I don't want to sound bad or anything, but with DS2 stick I have, I can modulate from 10% to 100% brake pressure without any slight of issue and can still compete with steering wheel users who uses ABS. Have you watched my video several pages back ? You'll get the idea, it was at Monza, 458 Italia, CM tires and rain.

 

[FordMKIVJ5]

Threshold and trail braking are what you said here, I always do them when braking, apply high pressure when in high speed, modulate accordingly as I get a lot slower and trail brake into the corner. High BB offer a lot less room to play before lock up set in.

I don't want to sound bad or anything, but with DS2 stick I have, I can modulate from 10% to 100% brake pressure without any slight of issue and can still compete with steering wheel users who uses ABS. Have you watched my video several pages back ? You'll get the idea, it was at Monza, 458 Italia, CM tires and rain.

That is exactly what I'm talking about. You simply do not have the same level of control with higher brake levels, you've said before you get to 70% (?) pressure and lock up, therefore you are robbing yourself of an extra 30% of brake travel that would be extremely useful.

And yes I did see the video.

I understand that you obviously prefer to play this way and I'm not trying to change that.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

That is exactly what I'm talking about. You simply do not have the same level of control with higher brake levels, you've said before you get to 70% (?) pressure and lock up, therefore you are robbing yourself of an extra 30% of brake travel that would be extremely useful.

And yes I did see the video.

I understand that you obviously prefer to play this way and I'm not trying to change that.

70% is how much the red bar percentage on the HUD next to throttle bar, that is how I measure how much pressure my brake is having. It's intuitive for me when using DS2 stick, the face buttons works so well compared to DS3, so I almost never need to concentrate on how much pressure am I doing at that moment, almost like when driving a manual car in real life, second nature

I am not changing your way of play either, just pointing out about the the BB differences and it's impact on users who have wheels.

 

[GTPLam]

That is pedal travel, correct ? How about the percentage the red brake bar on the HUD ? How much is it filled until lock ups often happen ? It should be around 60 - 70 % during straight line braking with 6/2 BB F430 on SH. The red brake bar in the HUD is my reference as I can't measure button travel on stick controller

Sorry yes I was trying to compare how 6/2 BB would be more suitable for race cars than it is for normal cars. Referring back to the stock Ferrari F430 if I brake to 60-70% red bar when using BB settings in the range of 6/2 or higher (6/2, 6/3, 7/2, 7/3 are the values I normally use on race cars), my tire hud indicator turns completely red within 1~2 second and I must ease off the brakes again. But with a BB of 3/1 on the stock F430 I'm able to keep the tire indicator light pink where I want it to be at 80-90% threshold

But yeah shoutout to that vid of yours I still think it's one of the best ABS OFF vids I've ever seen out there. Hopefully one day I'll be able to drive like you and master the art of high BB!

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Sorry yes I was trying to compare how 6/2 BB would be more suitable for race cars than it is for normal cars. Referring back to the stock Ferrari F430 if I brake to 60-70% red bar when using BB settings in the range of 6/2 or higher (6/2, 6/3, 7/2, 7/3 are the values I normally use on race cars), my tire hud indicator turns completely red within 1~2 second and I must ease off the brakes again. But with a BB of 3/1 on the stock F430 I'm able to keep the tire indicator light pink where I want it to be at 80-90% threshold

But yeah shoutout to that vid of yours I still think it's one of the best ABS OFF vids I've ever seen out there. Hopefully one day I'll be able to drive like you and master the art of high BB!

That would be about the same with stick then, the only hurdle with pedals is the common lack of feel and resistance like a real life car pedal If only PD did special routine for input adjustments on the pedal to compensate for the lack of feel and resistance, we could have larger base of no ABS drivers.

By the way thanks for the compliment of the video it was a long journey to get used to no ABS driving, I learned it from the 1st release day of GT5, and until now I am still learning and practicing, as I consider myself still just an ordinary driver

If only I have capture card, I could upload many of my no ABS run with various cars using comfort tires ... it would be great for luring ABS drivers to let go

 

[GTPLam]

That would be about the same with stick then, the only hurdle with pedals is the common lack of feel and resistance like a real life car pedal If only PD did special routine for input adjustments on the pedal to compensate for the lack of feel and resistance, we could have larger base of no ABS drivers.

By the way thanks for the compliment of the video it was a long journey to get used to no ABS driving, I learned it from the 1st release day of GT5, and until now I am still learning and practicing, as I consider myself still just an ordinary driver

If only I have capture card, I could upload many of my no ABS run with various cars using comfort tires ... it would be great for luring ABS drivers to let go

Yes I agree! Haha you don’t happen to have that vid of the ABS-off race we had a while back with Morgoth do you? I remember it was a real close one we all finished within 2 seconds of each other. I’m looking for it right now but I can only find the other one we had which wasn’t very good, some guy crashed into the back of one of us at the start and ruined it hah. I think I lost it but nvm if you can’t find it. I did really bad in it anyway haha I remember I was experimenting with high BB settings that day

You should consider a wheel sometime soon! I’m sure you will like it! If you already have no problem driving with a stick you definitely won’t have any problems driving with a wheel either. I’m thinking about selling my G25 soon. I’ll make sure to put you as my top priority if I come to it!

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Yes I agree! Haha you don’t happen to have that vid of the ABS-off race we had a while back with Morgoth do you? I remember it was a real close one we all finished within 2 seconds of each other. I’m looking for it right now but I can only find the other one we had which wasn’t very good, some guy crashed into the back of one of us at the start and ruined it hah. I think I lost it but nvm if you can’t find it. I did really bad in it anyway haha I remember I was experimenting with high BB settings that day

You should consider a wheel sometime soon! I’m sure you will like it! If you already have no problem driving with a stick you definitely won’t have any problems driving with a wheel either. I’m thinking about selling my G25 soon. I’ll make sure to put you as my top priority if I come to it!

I might have saved the replay, but I can't capture it to a video file , and I don't think I can have wheel yet, my place is not the best for setting up a wheel, too many furniture to move around - besides my girlfriend dislikes messy place, she sold my old broken Thrustmaster wheel that I used to play old PC games like GP3, GP Legend, NASCAR 2003, etc.

If I could have a wheel, I would drive a lot better than with stick I have been playing PC racing games with wheels since the days of original Need for Speed, but now the older I am, I can only settle for stick I used to win at arcade playing Sega's F355 Challenge with clutch + h shifter, it was sweet memories, almost like a real car, heel and toe was a breeze. Now I am just stick jockey

 

[Cote Dazur]

Sadly this means that steering wheels users that have low BB when driving without ABS would be having the brake strength that is less than optimal, as less than 6 total value of BB means braking strength / bite will be severely reduced.

I don't understand your logic in this statement and as a wheel user I can tell you it is not accurate.
Nothing is preventing a pedal user to apply the same force to the brake as a controler user.
Beeing involve as you are in the finesse of GT5, I suggest that investing in a DFGT will be money weel spent in your case, they are ways to have the wheel out of site for the girl friend to be happy and for the simulation to be more rewarding.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I don't understand your logic in this statement and as a wheel user I can tell you it is not accurate.
Nothing is preventing a pedal user to apply the same force to the brake as a controler user.
Beeing involve as you are in the finesse of GT5, I suggest that investing in a DFGT will be money weel spent in your case, they are ways to have the wheel out of site for the girl friend to be happy and for the simulation to be more rewarding.

You are right, nothing is preventing a pedal user to apply the same force to the brake as a controller user. The way the pedal interact with the user ( lack of feel and feedback ) is what hinders most wheel users to have high BB, which I have tested to have shorter stopping distance due to more force applied.

I did thorough tests a while ago, using ABS:1 to remove inconsistency. BB 0/0, 5/5, 10/10 full brake force applied until full stop, all reflect the stopping distance lessening with higher total values of BB. I did it at SSRX with Corvette and SH tires.

And to top that, my experience when I used low BB number when driving without ABS, I have a hard time out braking ABS drivers who have usual BB like 5/3 or 7/5. I did also raced with no ABS drivers who uses low BB 3/0, 4/1, still struggling with similar low BB, then I increase the BB to 8/4 then 9/5, only then I begin to able consistently brake as deep and late as most ABS drivers, and often out brake them mostly during shuffle races.

I am afraid right now no wheel for me , maybe next year when I can convince her, I can still get by with my old trusty DS2 stick. The last time I have a wheel for console was when I played GT3 on PS2, I had the cheap Madcatz wheels if not mistaken, it was very basic and broke within 6 months

 

[Cote Dazur]

You are right, nothing is preventing a pedal user to apply the same force to the brake as a controller user. The way the pedal interact with the user ( lack of feel and feedback ) is what hinders most wheel users to have high BB, which I have tested to have shorter stopping distance due to more force applied.

I did thorough tests a while ago, using ABS:1 to remove inconsistency. BB 0/0, 5/5, 10/10 full brake force applied until full stop, all reflect the stopping distance lessening with higher total values of BB. I did it at SSRX with Corvette and SH tires.

And to top that, my experience when I used low BB number when driving without ABS, I have a hard time out braking ABS drivers who have usual BB like 5/3 or 7/5. I did also raced with no ABS drivers who uses low BB 3/0, 4/1, still struggling with similar low BB, then I increase the BB to 8/4 then 9/5, only then I begin to able consistently brake as deep and late as most ABS drivers, and often out brake them mostly during shuffle races.

The last time I have a wheel for console was when I played GT3 on PS2, I had the cheap Madcatz wheels if not mistaken, it was very basic and broke within 6 months

thank you, I understand better now,
For lack of feel I agree, since I am using load cell, it does not concern me any more, but when going back to potentiometer braking when using my travelling kit, I have to agree, not much feel and feedback.

Using ABS, I would agree that higher equal setting like 10/10 might yield shorter stopping distance, althou my own experience is that shorter braking distance can be had from not appliying 100% braking when using ABS.

I am still puzzeled at why a ABS driver would not use equal bias number like 5/5 instead of 5/3, as with ABS it compensate automaticaly.

As for me the reason a ABS driver brakes deeper than without ABS is the confidence he will not lock the tyres as he tries to turn, since all thing being equal, you are going to brake in the same distance with or without ABS, just easier to be consistant when the ABS takes care of not locking the wheel for you.
I also used to drive in GT4/PS2 with a Logitech Driving Force Pro and my experience is that the same wheel felted so much more realistic on GT5/PS3. For any one out there wanting a cheap but very good wheel, I highly recommend the logitech driving force pro wheel.

 

[FordMKIVJ5]

You are right, nothing is preventing a pedal user to apply the same force to the brake as a controller user. The way the pedal interact with the user ( lack of feel and feedback ) is what hinders most wheel users to have high BB, which I have tested to have shorter stopping distance due to more force applied.

I have to say, I'm still confused as to how a DS2 controller has more "feel" through the stick than the pedals of a DFGT do.

 

[Cote Dazur]

I have to say, I'm still confused as to how a DS2 controller has more "feel" through the stick than the pedals of a DFGT do.

I guess it is the same principal as playing guitar, much easier to play with the fingers than the foot.
Joke aside, with enough dexterity, you will know exactly where that DS2 lever is at so with enough talent you can have more accuracy than a foot on a potentiometer brake pedal, I am talking hypothetically, as I am using a foot to brake and I know I do not have the dexterity to control the brakes with such precision with my finger.

 

[FordMKIVJ5]

I guess it is the same principal as playing guitar, much easier to play with the fingers than the foot.
Joke aside, with enough dexterity, you will know exactly where that DS2 lever is at so with enough talent you can have more accuracy than a foot on a potentiometer brake pedal, I am talking hypothetically, as I am using a foot to brake and I know I do not have the dexterity to control the brakes with such precision with my finger.

But I'd have said that the analog sticks on the DS controller are awkwardly placed for precision.

And if using hand controls in cars was more effective than pedals (IRL), pedals wouldn't exist.

 

[Cote Dazur]

But I'd have said that the analog sticks on the DS controller are awkwardly placed for precision.

And if using hand controls in cars was more effective than pedals (IRL), pedals wouldn't exist.

analog sticks on the DS controller is right on top, not sure what is akward about that. I would agree that using the index could be a little more precise than the thumb, but with practice, the thumb can be very agile as well.

Who is saying that hand controls for a car was more effective?

In reference to the IRL compairison, braking pedal, IRL, are not connected to potentiometers and IRL it is very practical with the G forces involved to be able to hold the wheel with both hand and let the feets take care of acceleration and braking. Also, driving use to involve shifting, so if not using the feet we would have needed a helper for the shifting to be able to drive.
In my case, since I have done most of my driving IRL, I am much better with my feet and a closer replica of IRL braking with load cell in SIM instead of using my thumb.
On an other subject, now that the young generation has acces to driving simulator as a first experience of driving and that the technology is advancing, like wireless accelerator, I would not be surprised if in the future IRL vehicule would be driven with some kind of a pad.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I have to say, I'm still confused as to how a DS2 controller has more "feel" through the stick than the pedals of a DFGT do.

I am using the face buttons for gas and brake, I also assigned them to the rear shoulder buttons ( L2 and R2 ), while changing gears are L1 and R1. Steering is with left analog stick. The reason I can play better with DS2 is really simple, better sensitivity, the face and shoulder buttons requires at least 3 times as much pressure than usual DS3 to have 100% input. This means when I brake I can easily modulate the force almost like using pedal, of course this takes practice, but it's damn a lot easier than with DS3. I can press the triangle button for brake quite hard and only 70% brake pressure on the red bar HUD is registered.

The only flaw is steering, analog stick is just can't compete with 900 degrees steering wheel. I often gave too much steering input and scrub off speed unnecessarily, and maintaining smooth line when driving with low grip tires and high power cars is a real challenge.

 

[Eric1512]

I think I will start to learn how to not use ABS. Any tips?

 

[FordMKIVJ5]

I'm still failing to see why this is better than pedals. Even without the real life feedback through the pedal, you can still feel through the wheel.


I'm done with this now.

/out.

 

[Cote Dazur]

I think I will start to learn how to not use ABS. Any tips?

This thread and other thread are full ot tips. Do not try to go too fast too quickly, play with settings, have fun with it, the journey is even nicer than reaching your goal.
May the force be with you. LOL

 

[Lock2Lock]

Ok i haven't raced in a while and the last couple days i have been racing with a few of my favorite cars. I use no abs of course. I noticed that after the update the wheel lock up is amazing now. You can feel each wheel lock up now while on the wheel. I absolutely love it.

 

[CJSpencer77]

But yeah shoutout to that vid of yours I still think it's one of the best ABS OFF vids I've ever seen out there. Hopefully one day I'll be able to drive like you and master the art of high BB!

Ive put a link to a few videos of races from the league i run in, all ABS 0, the first video is just an intro video, the second one is a clio trophy race, for some reason i find ABS 0 races are always closer!?!? im still not exactly sure why, but the racing in the clio video is stupidly close for the entire race, i definitely find that the pack moves slower than you can run if your out on your own compared to ABS 1.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=263705