Atheists most distrusted minority?

[homeforsummer]

As am I, before and after I became Christian. I am not being judged, I believe that everyone will be judged.

And I don't believe that. Should it matter if we're judged or not? Why does the judgement of God matter any more than your self-judgement and immediate peers?

It's an unfair question.

It isn't, it's a realistic one.

Does a man eat to keep himself healthy, or because he enjoys eating?

Poor comparison. Choosing one or the other ways of being moral from my question will result in a moral person. Choosing one or the other ways of eating would be impossible for some, since anyone who doesn't enjoy eating would die if they didn't eat for sustenance.

I am trying to prove to you exactly that. I believe there is such a thing as an absolute law of marality in nature, and it is given from an absolute law giver (God).

How convenient. So whether you believe in God or not, in-built morality is all his doing anyway?

Sorry, not buying that. Not least because, as I think someone raised in one of the other threads, morality isn't necessarily in-built anyway, but it is human nature. A very young child will happily steal another's toy or push them over, which is immoral, but they quickly learn the concept - completely independently from religion - when another kid does the same to them.

You could raise a kid in the middle of nowhere, completely isolated from religion, and they'd still learn naturally to become a "good" person, simply by learning that you should treat others as you wish to be treated.

That's neither god-given nor in-built. That's learning morality, free from the ever-present eyes of a vengeful God.

Yes, but how about the people with severe mental problems? It would seem logical to get rid of these people as they cannot bring wealth etc to the community, yet most of us (I hope so, anyway) considers this sickeningly immoral.

You're missing the bigger picture. Doing away with those who cannot contribute to society reflects badly on the people making those decisions too. Genocide may be motivated by a dictator's desire to improve his society, but that in itself is an undesirable characteristic to pass through humanity.

If you think someone should be killed, what's to stop someone else thinking you should be killed too? You can't have a society that thinks like that, regardless of the motivation.

Really, this is a subject for the morality thread.

We, as human beings, see life as being invaluable. We strive to give the best quality of life to the disadvantaged, and we know that in doing so it is perfectly moral.

Yes! We do! But why should this morality, helping others, improving our quality of life, all be God-given?

Is that not an incredibly negative way to look on life? That were it not for God needing to give us morality, we'd all be savages?

If there is a God, I'd prefer the idea that he has given us solely the power of judgement, and the rest is up to us. That we must then use that judgement in order to appease his own seems incredibly mistrustful, and not the sort of bloke I want in charge of the universe.

It brings me back to my comments about Buddhism, the idea of which I much prefer. Its basic premise is "Be good to others", rather than Christianity's "Be good to others, or God will be angry".

I do agree with you, but western society is highly influenced by Christianity, so many things you and I enjoy today do stem from religion.

I don't think it's as highly influenced as you suspect, certainly not to the extent that it's influenced some of the "things I enjoy today".

 

[Moglet]

O dear, I hope you are just trolling and not being serious.


And here's another one. Yikes.

I do hope you guys are actually believing in God and keep doing so. You have been brainwashed so severely, that curing you could lead to some very unwanted side-effects for society.

Now that is a worrying post! I'm an atheist and in all honesty I couldn't care less if anyone of a religious background distrusts me. If they're going to judge me based on being an atheist then I'm not going to give them the time of day anyway.

All I will say is this; most people who follow a religion believe in one god and one god only. But by the modern definition of a god, there are 2,870 different 'types'. I don't believe in 2,870. They don't believe in 2,869. They're almost as much of a non believer as me!

 

[Encyclopedia]

I do agree with you, but western society is highly influenced by Christianity, so many things you and I enjoy today do stem from religion.

Could you give an example?

 

[TankAss95]

Could you give an example?

This link says it better than I ever could: http://crossandquill.com/journey/?page_id=267

 

[homeforsummer]

This link says it better than I ever could:

Why am I not surprised?...

http://crossandquill.com/journey/?page_id=267

Some of that is pretty dubious anyway. It's asking a bit much to pick out the word "God" from every important document from history and claim that the document was influenced by Christianity, no more than Christianity directly influences every NASCAR win or home run where the sportsman says "and I'd like to thank my fans, my family, God, etc etc". Nor the way you swear on the bible in court.

I'd argue that so much is mindlessly attributed to God that it actually diminishes the importance of genuine things that can be attributed to Christianity. Like, I dunno, renaissance art. Or religious architecture.

 

[fitftw]

I've never seen god, therefore he (or she or it) may or may not exist. I'd rather not place all my eggs in one basket like the majority of the world does. Religion is for the weak/closed-minded who refuse to see life for what it is. People do the same when they're 3 years old. It's called an imaginary friend.

If I die and find out there's a god, okay fine, cool. If not, okay fine, cool. Who cares?

 

[TankAss95]

Religion is for the weak/closed-minded who refuse to see life for what it is.

Rubbish.

 

[fitftw]

Rubbish.

Great argument there buddy. Explain how religion is NOT rubbish, is NOT a total waste of time, is NOT a cop-out, etc.

I'd rather live my life as good and true as any religious person while not worshipping a deity. Saves me a lot of precious time here on EARTH before I die and possibly learn the truth.

If there is a god and he only allows people into heaven who worshipped and praised him, then god would be a prick. What about all the good people who don't want to believe in something without proof?

 

[Encyclopedia]

This link says it better than I ever could: http://crossandquill.com/journey/?page_id=267

Give me an example in your own words instead. It shouldn't be hard as you seem pretty sure about it.

 

[Exorcet]

OK, let's assume that Christianity is responsible for everything we have today, no matter what the evidence says.

Why can't we just take the useful parts (western civilization, morals) and dump the unnecessary parts (belief in a God with no evidence, following an outdated and mistranslated book, wasting an hour every Sunday that could be spend doing other things, etc)?

Even if Christianity did cause good things to happen, that doesn't make anything claimed in the Bible to be true.

 

[Liquid]

OK, let's assume that Christianity is responsible for everything we have today, no matter what the evidence says.

And that in itself is hugely dependent on what country you live in, hypothetical or not.

 

[TankAss95]

And I don't believe that. Should it matter if we're judged or not? Why does the judgement of God matter any more than your self-judgement and immediate peers?

The way I see it, God is Almighty. Everything I am able to do I thank God for. Saying this, God has given me free will, and he has given me the right to choose between right and wrong.
By considering this I cannot give anything back to god, but I owe everything to him. He has shown himself through Jesus Christ, and has offered me forgiveness through himself for my wrongdoing.
So after seeing my beliefs, could you not understand my stance?

Poor comparison. Choosing one or the other ways of being moral from my question will result in a moral person. Choosing one or the other ways of eating would be impossible for some, since anyone who doesn't enjoy eating would die if they didn't eat for sustenance.

Perhaps I have answered this above. Consider this: If you don't follow morality, it may affect your quality of life.
When I was a kid I obeyed my parents often through foolishness. I did so only for my own gain (I would not have to do extra chores, etc). When I was a little older, I actually felt good for doing what I felt was good.

How convenient. So whether you believe in God or not, in-built morality is all his doing anyway?

Yes. Actually, morality was a major point that convinced me of a personal deity.

Sorry, not buying that. Not least because, as I think someone raised in one of the other threads, morality isn't necessarily in-built anyway, but it is human nature. A very young child will happily steal another's toy or push them over, which is immoral, but they quickly learn the concept - completely independently from religion - when another kid does the same to them.

If you trip me over by accident, resulting in a serious wound, I would naturally be angry at you. Then you explain that it was a sincere accident, I would no longer be angry at you.

You could raise a kid in the middle of nowhere, completely isolated from religion, and they'd still learn naturally to become a "good" person, simply by learning that you should treat others as you wish to be treated.

I agree, but I believe that we are born with this sense of morality, and it is God given.

You're missing the bigger picture. Doing away with those who cannot contribute to society reflects badly on the people making those decisions too. Genocide may be motivated by a dictator's desire to improve his society, but that in itself is an undesirable characteristic to pass through humanity.

But why exactly is it considered bad?

If you think someone should be killed, what's to stop someone else thinking you should be killed too? You can't have a society that thinks like that, regardless of the motivation.

Wether you are making a considerable contribution to a community or not.

Yes! We do! But why should this morality, helping others, improving our quality of life, all be God-given?

And it's great why we live this way! But to me it doesn't seem logical, I just know that helping, and giving disabled people the respect and dignity that I believe we all deserve is good (obviously this changes with murderers etc.).

Is that not an incredibly negative way to look on life? That were it not for God needing to give us morality, we'd all be savages?

I'm not really sure how to respond to this. Without God we wouldn't be here.

If there is a God, I'd prefer the idea that he has given us solely the power of judgement, and the rest is up to us. That we must then use that judgement in order to appease his own seems incredibly mistrustful, and not the sort of bloke I want in charge of the universe.

Then if one thinks that torturing innocent people is morally right, then who is it to call you wrong?

It brings me back to my comments about Buddhism, the idea of which I much prefer. Its basic premise is "Be good to others", rather than Christianity's "Be good to others, or God will be angry".

I really don't think that makes sense. A Christian is more likely a 'good person' because he is actually a good person.

I don't think it's as highly influenced as you suspect, certainly not to the extent that it's influenced some of the "things I enjoy today".

I'll try to respond to this in a future post.

Great argument there buddy. Explain how religion is NOT rubbish, is NOT a total waste of time, is NOT a cop-out, etc.

I'd rather live my life as good and true as any religious person while not worshipping a deity. Saves me a lot of precious time here on EARTH before I die and possibly learn the truth.

If there is a god and he only allows people into heaven who worshipped and praised him, then god would be a prick. What about all the good people who don't want to believe in something without proof?

You said that religious people are close minded and weak. I am Christian. So you are saying that I am close minded and weak because I have had experiences with God and believe in him?

And many great people have been encouraged by Christianity to do great things.
Not having a belief in God has also been proven to be dangerous, as shown in the 20th century.

 

[Encyclopedia]

Not having a belief in God has also been proven to be dangerous, as shown in the 20th century.

The same could be said for the belief in God though. It just shows there are bad eggs in both groups.

 

[Joey D]

I distrust extremely intolerant people, this is includes a pretty good number of atheists and religious types alike. When you ardently hate something so much, whether it be an atheist hating everything to do with religion or a religious person hating everyone who isn't Christian, I can't trust you to be an upstanding person. I'd question the intention of all your actions because I'd wonder if you were only doing it to further your cause or to harm the other side. It's one of the many reason I distrust all politicians as well.

I know everyone has their intolerances, it's human nature, but what I'm talking about is when people take it to the extremes and yell about it from the roof tops.

 

[TankAss95]

I distrust extremely intolerant people, this is includes a pretty good number of atheists and religious types alike. When you ardently hate something so much, whether it be an atheist hating everything to do with religion or a religious person hating everyone who isn't Christian, I can't trust you to be an upstanding person. I'd question the intention of all your actions because I'd wonder if you were only doing it to further your cause or to harm the other side. It's one of the many reason I distrust all politicians as well.

I know everyone has their intolerances, it's human nature, but what I'm talking about is when people take it to the extremes and yell about it from the roof tops.

And this is what I think of the New Atheists. Christopher Hitchens said that religion poisons everything and Richard Dawkins said that religion is a path to extremism.
And can't you see why I get mad when people call Christians 'weak'?

Atheists and Religious people have both done bad things. It's all about learning to accept other people's views.

 

[killer tiller]

Not having a belief in God has also been proven to be dangerous, as shown in the 20th century.

Proven to be dangerous? How so?

 

[Sir Tuddle]

Great argument there buddy. Explain how religion is NOT rubbish, is NOT a total waste of time, is NOT a cop-out, etc.

Religion brings people together, gives them direction i guess. My friend met her now husband in church, another turned his life around because of church. It isn't always about the religion (well, yeah it prolly is xD) but it can do other things for people.

I agree with what Joey says, I don't care what religion you are or if you're an atheist. If you can tolerate and get along with people no matter what they follow it shouldnt be a problem.

 

[fitftw]

I just think it's hilarious there are dating sites specifically for certain religions. Yeah, that's not closed-mindedness to the extreme..........That's almost like having dating sites for specific races and ethnicities. "You're single, you're white, and you're looking for a white-centered relationship..." or "You're single, you're American, and you're looking for an American-centered relationship."



"Sometimes we wait for God to make the next move, when God is saying it's your turn to act." He is? How come he hasn't told me?

 

[Joey D]

I just think it's hilarious there are dating sites specifically for certain religions. Yeah, that's not closed-mindedness to the extreme..........That's almost like having dating sites for specific races and ethnicities. "You're single, you're white, and you're looking for a meaningful relationship...with other whites..."

"Sometimes we wait for God to make the next move, when God is saying it's your turn to act." He is? How come he hasn't told me?

There are dating site for just about every niche out there, so ya, that's kind of an invalid point.

There is an atheist dating sites too:

http://www.freethinkermatch.com/
http://www.atheistpassions.com/

*Go there at your own risk, I have no idea what else they offer beside matching making. Just being used as examples.

 

[fitftw]

yes, but other niches haven't caused world wars like religion has. When did goths start any wars? Check and mate, buddy.

 

[CodeRedR51]

I distrust extremely intolerant people, this is includes a pretty good number of atheists and religious types alike. When you ardently hate something so much, whether it be an atheist hating everything to do with religion or a religious person hating everyone who isn't Christian, I can't trust you to be an upstanding person.

That would be me, but....

I know everyone has their intolerances, it's human nature, but what I'm talking about is when people take it to the extremes and yell about it from the roof tops.

...I don't do that. The fact I'm even responding to posts in this thread is a bit much for me.

 

[Joey D]

yes, but other niches haven't caused world wars like religion has.

So.....

• Pol Pot
• Mao Zedong
• Kim Jong Il
• Napoleon Bonaparte
• Than Shwe
• Benito Mussolini
• Joseph Stalin

Never caused wars or killed millions of people?

That would be me, but....



...I don't do that. The fact I'm even responding to posts in this thread is a bit much for me.

If I never know you're stance, I can't form an opinion for whether I trust you or not. I usually give people the benefit of the doubt, but when they start getting borderline then I start questioning them.

 

[Danoff]

So.....

• Pol Pot
• Mao Zedong
• Kim Jong Il
• Napoleon Bonaparte
• Than Shwe
• Benito Mussolini
• Joseph Stalin

Never caused wars or killed millions of people?

Gonna have to say "not like religion has".

 

[fitftw]

What the hell? How do any of those PEOPLE fit into dating site niches? Does Stalin have a dating site just for Stalin-lovers? I'm so confused by your response.

Religion is the root of all evil, and money is close behind. They go hand in hand actually. Can't get rid of one without the other.

 

[Encyclopedia]

What the hell? How do any of those PEOPLE fit into dating site niches? Does Stalin have a dating site just for Stalin-lovers? I'm so confused by your response.

Religion is the root of all evil, and money is close behind. They go hand in hand actually. Can't get rid of one without the other.

I think he was reffering to murders done "in the name of atheism".

 

[Liquid]

IReligion is for the weak/closed-minded who refuse to see life for what it is.

People do the same when they're 3 years old. It's called an imaginary friend.

then god would be a prick

I just think it's hilarious there are dating sites specifically for certain religions. Yeah, that's not closed-mindedness to the extreme..........That's almost like having dating sites for specific races and ethnicities. "You're single, you're white, and you're looking for a white-centered relationship..." or "You're single, you're American, and you're looking for an American-centered relationship."

yes, but other niches haven't caused world wars like religion has. When did goths start any wars? Check and mate, buddy.

The world has always chosen religion over non-religion. People are just scared to join the minority/underdog. Look at sports. Go to NYC and try to find someone who says "F the Yankees" in front of a group of Yankee fans.

What the hell? How do any of those PEOPLE fit into dating site niches? Does Stalin have a dating site just for Stalin-lovers? I'm so confused by your response.

Religion is the root of all evil, and money is close behind. They go hand in hand actually. Can't get rid of one without the other.

It's people like you who give atheism a bad name and are probably the reason atheists are not trusted, linking back to the thread title.

The bold section shows where you violated the AUP in a rather blasphemous manner.

 

[homeforsummer]

I was about to take this to the morality thread, before realising the closest we really have is the human rights thread, which isn't really the same thing. So I'll continue here...

So after seeing my beliefs, could you not understand my stance?

I can understand it and I have no problem with it. You've clarified now that you're not solely a good person just from fearing God. This line of discussion only really started because someone made a comment earlier that suggested they were only good because they were God-fearing.

Perhaps I have answered this above. Consider this: If you don't follow morality, it may affect your quality of life.
When I was a kid I obeyed my parents often through foolishness. I did so only for my own gain (I would not have to do extra chores, etc). When I was a little older, I actually felt good for doing what I felt was good.

That's not really morality though. That's simply being respectful, and I'd argue that there's nothing wrong with a kid not wanting to do chores, or resentfully doing them because you might get a bit of extra pocket money. Kids want - and need - a bit of fun, but they also need discipline and it's not easy for the childish mind to realise this.

Again, it's something you learn as you get older, rather than something that's inherent or God-given.

Yes. Actually, morality was a major point that convinced me of a personal deity

And I'm saying that you learn morality as you get older, so it can't be something you've been given from birth.

If you trip me over by accident, resulting in a serious wound, I would naturally be angry at you. Then you explain that it was a sincere accident, I would no longer be angry at you.

Likewise. Forgiveness isn't God-given, it's something you learn when you develop the idea to reason, when you develop rationality. If as a kid you accidentally trip up one of your friends, they can't grasp that it was an accident, and may hate you for weeks. As kids, we often need to be told to forgive until we learn it ourselves.

I agree, but I believe that we are born with this sense of morality, and it is God given.

And I disagree with that, given the reasons stated several times already. Most of these characteristics you seem to believe are God given don't exist when you're very young, so they can't be inherent.

If they are God-given, why are we not born with them? Why is there not a little voice in a baby's mind that tells them not to punch one of their nursery peers in the face?

But why exactly is it considered bad?

It's considered bad because other people can see if something is wrong, even if one particular person cannot. You stop someone harming someone else because you wouldn't like it if someone did the same to you.

Wether you are making a considerable contribution to a community or not.

By and large people don't think like that. Contributing to humankind is about more than improving the species.

We come back to the same point: Treat others as you wish to be treated. It's about the simplest concept of all, and occurs completely independently of religion.

And it's great why we live this way! But to me it doesn't seem logical, I just know that helping, and giving disabled people the respect and dignity that I believe we all deserve is good (obviously this changes with murderers etc.).

You didn't really answer my question: Why should this morality, helping others, improving our quality of life, all be God-given?

Why is it impossible for us to be moral without it being a concept gifted by God?

I'm not really sure how to respond to this. Without God we wouldn't be here.

That's only something you believe. The vast volume of scientific evidence suggests otherwise.

Then if one thinks that torturing innocent people is morally right, then who is it to call you wrong?

We come back to my point again: Treat others as you wish to be treated.

I really don't think that makes sense. A Christian is more likely a 'good person' because he is actually a good person.

Whether you think it makes sense or not doesn't really matter: It's what Christianity is based on. You've said yourself, you're being constantly judged by God. As a Christian you're encouraged to go to church and confess your sins, even if you've not sinned.

I can be, by my own standards, a good person, and I'm perfectly happy with that. You can be a good person by your own standards, perhaps more so by God's standards, but your motivation is geared by the promise of heaven. Christianity is all about being good so you get into heaven.

I'm not a good person for some reward in the afterlife, I'm simply a good person because it's how I feel I should act.

 

[Joey D]

Gonna have to say "not like religion has".

I don't doubt religion hasn't killed many people, but atheism isn't all rainbows and sunshine either. That was my point.

What the hell? How do any of those PEOPLE fit into dating site niches? Does Stalin have a dating site just for Stalin-lovers? I'm so confused by your response.

Religion is the root of all evil, and money is close behind. They go hand in hand actually. Can't get rid of one without the other.

You said other niches haven't caused world wars, and just showed you a list of people that have started major wars or genocide and also happened to be atheist. There happens to be atheist dating sites, thus a niche that has start wars.

And really if religion is the root of all evil how do you explain the list of dictators I posted? Once again note, I'm not saying religion hasn't caused atrocities.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Oh look, an argument about religion.... religion itself doesn't cause war. Intolerance does.

 

[TankAss95]

What the hell? How do any of those PEOPLE fit into dating site niches? Does Stalin have a dating site just for Stalin-lovers? I'm so confused by your response.

Religion is the root of all evil, and money is close behind. They go hand in hand actually. Can't get rid of one without the other.

"Somewhere in Eastern Europe, an SS officer watched languidly, his machine gun cradled, as an elderly and bearded Hasidic Jew laboriously dug what he knew to be his grave. Standing up straight, he addressed his executioner. "God is watching what you are doing," he said. And then he was shot dead.
What hitler did not believe, and what Stalin did not believe, and what Mao did not believe, and what the SS did not believe, and what the Gestapo did not believe, and what the NKVD did not believe, and what the commissars, functionaries, swaggering executioners, Nazi doctors, Communist Party theoreticians, intellectuals, Brown Shirts, Blackshirts, Gauleiters, and a thousand party hacks did not believe, was that God was watching what they were doing.
And as far as we can tell, very few of those carrying out the horrors of the twentieth century worried overmuch that God was watching what they were doing either.
That is, after all, the meaning of a secular society." - David Berlinski