Camber

[Johnnypenso]

Been reading through, wow

I always thought the reason the car over/understeered was a big factor.

Porsches oversteer from a heavy back end, the engine behind/over the rear axle. Porsche's don't oversteer because the front has super grip. It oversteers because the back end is heavy and wants to swing around the front, the light low grip of the front can't hold it.

I've driven many Porsche's over the years, I was part of a Euro Car Club in my 20's with Porsches from stock to modified with reflashed ecu, upgraded turbo, the list goes on, some raced some do the show scene , many just daily drivers. The guys who go to events run massive camber in the front. It helps control the oversteer from a heavy tail the Camber giving the front better control through the corner.

I don't get why people are saying adding the camber removed grip from the front because it added grip didn't remove it.

Is the front rotating too much or is it the rear? If it's the rear if you remove grip from the front, you will oversteer More, not less.

You are confusing real life with GT. Forget what happens in real life, that's just a starting point for how we think things should work in the game. But as it turns out, camber in GT6 doesn't work the way it works in real life, or at least that's the near unanimous consensus.

 

[Zenmervolt]

I went and threw together my own 0/0 tune to see what I could manage with the BRZ GT300.

To some degree, the car seems to be simply an understeering car no matter what you do (similar to the way the Yellow Bird is always going to be twitchy and tend towards a somewhat uncomfortable combination of power-on understeer with snap oversteer).

With my (admittedly amateur) tune from the ground up I ran a 2:06.394 at Silverstone (see attached replay). Settings as follow:

Tires

• Racing Hard

Suspension

• Ride Height: 50/60
• Spring Rate: 17.88/18.71
• Dampers (Compression): 5/7
• Dampers (Extension): 5/5
• Anti-Roll Bars: 4/7
• Camber: 0/0
• Toe: -0.20/-0.20
• Brake Balance: 4/6

Transmission

• Auto-Set Max Speed: 155 mph (this is the same transmission setting Zuel used in his laps based on the shift points in the replay he uploaded)

Drivetrain

• Differential Initial Torque: 8
• Differential Acceleration Sensitivity: 30
• Differential Braking Sensitivity: 20

Power

• All standard, fresh oil change

Body

• Downforce: 225/454

 

[Johnnypenso]

I went and threw together my own 0/0 tune to see what I could manage with the BRZ GT300.

To some degree, the car seems to be simply an understeering car no matter what you do (similar to the way the Yellow Bird is always going to be twitchy and tend towards a somewhat uncomfortable combination of power-on understeer with snap oversteer).

I've never driven the car but if it handles like you say, the last thing you want to do is put -.20/-.20 toe on it. I'd go back to no toe and work from there, adding some + on the rear potentially. You could turn up the Decel senstivity as well.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Porsches oversteer from a heavy back end, the engine behind/over the rear axle. Porsche's don't oversteer because the front has super grip. It oversteers because the back end is heavy and wants to swing around the front, the light low grip of the front can't hold it.

I've driven many Porsche's over the years, I was part of a Euro Car Club in my 20's with Porsches from stock to modified with reflashed ecu, upgraded turbo, the list goes on, some raced some do the show scene , many just daily drivers. The guys who go to events run massive camber in the front. It helps control the oversteer from a heavy tail the Camber giving the front better control through the corner.

You are conflating steady-state oversteer (which the 911 has never had) with drop-throttle overteer (which the 911 has in SPADES, especially anything of the 964 family and earlier).

At part throttle in a corner, the 911 understeers fairly heavily because the weight transfer is taking weight away from the front wheels and causing the front end to run wide. This steady-state understeer is characteristic to the 911, and was much more so in the 964 series and earlier. This is the condition that 911 racers run front camber to reduce.

The 911's oversteer is indeed from the weight distribution, but it's drop-throttle (or "snap") oversteer, which is a different matter entirely. This is oversteer that happens when the driver abruptly closes the throttle (or, worse, taps the brakes) mid-corner. Weight transfer loads up the front wheels, giving them a sudden increase in grip, while simultaneously reducing grip at the rear. The sudden increase in front-end grip causes a spike in the car's yaw rate which, combined with the reduced rear grip and pendulum effect of the rear engine, causes the back end to step out.

The 911 has a dangerous reputation because of this rather unique combination of steady-state understeer with drop-throttle oversteer. If you slow before the corner and then keep on the throttle through the turn, the car is quite benign. However, if you come in too fast the car starts to understeer heavily. The instinctive reaction to this from the average driver is to jump off the throttle like it's their high school girlfriend and they just heard the garage door start to open. This causes the drop-throttle oversteer I mentioned above and the end result is that another driver ends up going arse-first into the Armco.

Is the front rotating too much or is it the rear? If it's the rear if you remove grip from the front, you will oversteer More, not less.

If the rear is rotating too much and you take away grip from the front, you effectively are reducing the ability of the front end to induce a yaw rate on the rear, which will reduce steady-state oversteer by limiting the amount of yaw force that can be generated by the steering. Removing grip from the front will always move the car towards understeer and away from oversteer. You cannot cause steady-state oversteer by removing front-end grip. It is impossible.

 

[Zenmervolt]

I've never driven the car but if it handles like you say, the last thing you want to do is put -.20/-.20 toe on it. I'd go back to no toe and work from there, adding some + on the rear potentially. You could turn up the Decel senstivity as well.

It was my understanding that rear toe-out (negative values according to the in-game description) increased oversteer and that front toe-out (also negative values based on the in-game description) would increase the initial responsiveness of the steering. Similarly, I thought that increased Decel sensitivity on the LSD would increase the tendency to understeer during braking.

Am I arse-backwards here?

 

[Boone]

This is wrong. The door swings both ways here. Oversteer is as much a preference as understeer, and as easily dialed in.
If i set up a car to be slightly understeery, camber would be the last thing I tuned. I start with the LSD, then rideheight, springs, dampers, toe, ARB and then camber. Usually this means that the car already understeers. Adding a flawed amount of camber would make the car undrivable.

However, it is possible that my setups are too forgiving and easy to drive, so that even a flawed camber could work reasonably...



I think autumn ring mini would be good for testing camber. Light car. FR. Say a Miata. Comfort hard tires. No assists. No downforce. Fully custom suspension and LSD. Nothing more. All values should be the same for all runs, except camber.
Something like this:
Brakes 6/3
Ride 80/80
Springs 12/10
Damper ext 4/4
Damper comp 2/2
ARB 4/2
Toe 0,10/-0,15
LSD 20/15/35
Try camber 3/1, 0,3/0,1, and 0/0. I'd really like to know if this "times ten theory" has any merit to it.

Please observe that I don't even have a Miata in my garage, so I have no idea how it would respond to such a setup, or if it is even possible. Feel free to tweak it and post changes.

I ran a Miata at Streets of Willow with your listed settings. First, on the skidpad. Second, 10 laps around the track.
No aids.
No oil change
G27 Racing Wheel(Sensitivity Setting does NOT affect this wheel)
brakes tweaked to 4/0.
Speeds on the pad with camber degrees:

3.0 F/1.0 R Camber: 40 mph
0.0F/3.0 R Camber: 41 mph
0.0F/1.0 R Camber: 44 mph
0.0F/0.0R Camber 46 mph

Times on the track with camber degrees:
3.0 F/1.0 R time:1.40.xxx
0.0F/3.0 R time: 1.38.xxx
0.0F/1.0 R time: 1.37.9xx
0.0F/0.0R time: 1.37.086

@FuzzyFez While tuning for the Jaguar XKR-S '11 Super Lap, I tried just about every setting of camber, front and rear combinations included, in between 3.0 and 0.0. Its visually striking how much MORE speed one can carry with 0 camber in the corner. If ANYONE has this secret suspension setting (which is allegedly the only appropriate and efficient setting for camber of any kind) I keep hearing about, by all means clue me in. Furthermore, if we're supposed to be seeing these camber settings in degrees would 5.0-6.0 degrees be realistic in some cases?

 

[DNW]

Then the best alternative is lap time correct? In fact the new GT circuit should be a good testing ground, flat with sharp turns.

Lap times are car/setup and driver dependent. Certainly you could use lap times to determine what set up works best for you, but the point here is to objectively determine whether camber behaves as it should. For that purpose, a controlled environment, or as close as one to get to it, like the skid pad test would be more applicable.

 

[FussyFez]

It was my understanding that rear toe-out (negative values according to the in-game description) increased oversteer and that front toe-out (also negative values based on the in-game description) would increase the initial responsiveness of the steering. Similarly, I thought that increased Decel sensitivity on the LSD would increase the tendency to understeer during braking.

Am I arse-backwards here?

I can only confirm that I agree with you. I'm ready to be told I'm wrong though (not that I'll believe whoever tells me).

 

[FussyFez]

I ran a Miata at Streets of Willow with your listed settings. First, on the skidpad. Second, 10 laps around the track.
No aids.
No oil change
G27 Racing Wheel
brakes tweaked to 4/0.
Speeds on the pad with camber degrees:

3.0 F/1.0 R Camber: 40 mph
0.0F/3.0 R Camber: 41 mph
0.0F/1.0 R Camber: 44 mph
0.0F/0.0R Camber 46 mph

Times on the track with camber degrees:
3.0 F/1.0 R time:1.40.xxx
0.0F/3.0 R time: 1.38.xxx
0.0F/1.0 R time: 1.37.9xx
0.0F/0.0R time: 1.37.086

Try tiny increments. 0.1, 0.2 etc. I know it's long winded, but the results can be confusing. Trust me..



Edit

Sorry for doubt post!

 

[PsuPepperoni]

I don't get why people are saying adding the camber removed grip from the front because it added grip didn't remove it.

Is the front rotating too much or is it the rear? If it's the rear if you remove grip from the front, you will oversteer More, not less. Take your RUF Yellowbird tune and lower the tires on the front, it's not going to understeer, it's going to oversteer, because it has less grip in the front.

Welcome back, Jack

 

[Taillights]

We are discussing the way camber angles affect the cars in the game.

I am too but the do the same thing in the game. Tail flies around the front..

Like throwing a hammer sideways. The hammer being the tail and the handle is the front. The heavy end wants to swing around the light end.

Camber added grip to the front and this allows the front to hold on while the back end tries to swing out. That's how the guys I know dial in the Porsches they track, and it worked for me in GT6.

Springs rates, dampers, anti roll bars all either allow your camber setting to work OR prevent your cambersetti

 

[Zenmervolt]

I am too but the do the same thing in the game. Tail flies around the front..

Like throwing a hammer sideways. The hammer being the tail and the handle is the front. The heavy end wants to swing around the light end.

No. The heavy end only flies around the light end if the light end has yaw imposed upon it. This is why the 911 understeers if you are giving the car throttle through the corner but snap-oversteers if you lift off the throttle quickly while turning.

Camber added grip to the front and this allows the front to hold on while the back end tries to swing out. That's how the guys I know dial in the Porsches they track, and it worked for me in GT6.

You, or they, are mistaken about why they are adding camber. If the front holds on while the back slides, that big weight in the back has let go and you're spinning. Period. End of story.

To counter steady-state oversteer, you have two options: Either reduce front-end grip so that it falls to the same level as rear grip or increase rear grip until it rises to the same level as front grip.

You are clearly not understanding that snap-oversteer is NOT THE SAME as steady-state oversteer. The 911 DOES NOT have steady-state oversteer. Quite the opposite, actually, as it has steady-state UNDERsteer.

 

[Zuel]

I've done some testing with 0.0 camber at Willows and found it to be faster in a circle than having camber. But I've found that for me 0.0 camber is very unstable, I'm sure I could tune that out of the car with doing some crazy tune but I rather not do that. Plus it would go against logic and what is trying to be done by PD. I'm setting the cars to transfer weight side to side, front to back no matter the tire or track. I'm looking for the lest amount of input going into, through and out a turn. If I must make a correction, I want the lest amount of movement through the wheel do to so. "The more you move the wheel the more likely you'll lose control" The setting I have allow me to feel through the wheel due to I don't have the forces to help me out. The hands are another major area of communication as I states before and I will always listen to my hands. I understand what you all are saying a getting across but as of now camber is more stable run through a track.

I seen some post that they had their wheel sensitivity at 7, this may be one area that may also make the difference. I have my wheel sensitivity set at -1, which gives me the best feel through the G27. I this is the case I would see why o.o camber would feel or seem better.

 

[PsuPepperoni]

Camber added grip to the front and this allows the front to hold on while the back end tries to swing out. That's how the guys I know dial in the Porsches they track, and it worked for me in GT6.

I'm thinking about doing this to my Mustang before driving in the snow tomorrow. Do you think this will give the front tires enough grip to keep the rear wheels from spinning?

 

[Zenmervolt]

I've done some testing with 0.0 camber at Willows and found it to be faster in a circle than having camber.

Then you have shown that camber, in the game, is NOT, in fact, behaving as camber behaves in the real world.

In short, you have just agreed with what everyone else has been saying. Camber in GT6 does not accurately describe what happens in reality.

But I've found that for me 0.0 camber is very unstable, I'm sure I could tune that out of the car with doing some crazy tune but I rather not do that.

The fact that it makes the car twitchier does not change the fact that the current camber settings do not reflect the real-world effects of negative camber.

Plus it would go against logic and what is trying to be done by PD.

What PD is trying to do is get the in-game settings to accurately mimic reality. The way camber settings currently work in the game does not do this. To suggest that this is somehow acceptable because it's possible for you to use the horrifically inaccurate camber settings to make a car more predictable for you is absurd. The intent is to mimic reality, not to provide ways of calming a car down that do not reflect what the real-world results of those settings would be.

 

[Tornado]

Then you have shown that camber, in the game, is NOT, in fact, behaving as camber behaves in the real world.

In short, you have just agreed with what everyone else has been saying. Camber in GT6 does not accurately describe what happens in reality.



The fact that it makes the car twitchier does not change the fact that the current camber settings do not reflect the real-world effects of negative camber.



What PD is trying to do is get the in-game settings to accurately mimic reality. The way camber settings currently work in the game does not do this. To suggest that this is somehow acceptable because it's possible for you to use the horrifically inaccurate camber settings to make a car more predictable for you is absurd. The intent is to mimic reality, not to provide ways of calming a car down that do not reflect what the real-world results of those settings would be.

Oh boy. I've seen how these debates play out with him when the gauntlet is thrown like that.

 

[Zuel]

Then you have shown that camber, in the game, is NOT, in fact, behaving as camber behaves in the real world.

In short, you have just agreed with what everyone else has been saying. Camber in GT6 does not accurately describe what happens in reality.



The fact that it makes the car twitchier does not change the fact that the current camber settings do not reflect the real-world effects of negative camber.



What PD is trying to do is get the in-game settings to accurately mimic reality. The way camber settings currently work in the game does not do this. To suggest that this is somehow acceptable because it's possible for you to use the horrifically inaccurate camber settings to make a car more predictable for you is absurd. The intent is to mimic reality, not to provide ways of calming a car down that do not reflect what the real-world results of those settings would be.

The only thing I've agreed to is that 0.0 camber is faster in a circle and no where else. I'm still find 0.0 camber very on-controllable on hard tires; Sport hard or racing hard tires. Entering the turn I get under steer, mid turn I receive under or over steer slip, on throttle massive over steer due to the rear losing grip.

I'll give 0.0 camber a go at steering sensitivity 7 to see how it feels, later. I got to get back to my studies.

 

[PsuPepperoni]

The only thing I've agreed to is that 0.0 camber is faster in a circle and no where else. I'm still find 0.0 camber very on-controllable on hard tires; Sport hard or racing hard tires. Entering the turn I get under steer, mid turn I receive under or over steer slip, on throttle massive over steer due to the rear losing grip.

I'll give 0.0 camber a go at steering sensitivity 7 to see how it feels, later. I got to get back to my studies.

Buy a PS3 steering wheel

 

[Zenmervolt]

The only thing I've agreed to is that 0.0 camber is faster in a circle and no where else.

It doesn't matter what you find anywhere else. In the real world, on a skidpad, in a circle, 0 degrees of camber will never be faster than even a half-degree of negative camber.

This is proof that the camber settings in the game do not reflect reality. By saying that 0/0 is faster around a skidpad in the game you are necessarily agreeing that camber in the game does not behave the way camber does in real life. You cannot have one without the other.

I'm still find 0.0 camber very on-controllable on hard tires; Sport hard or racing hard tires. Entering the turn I get under steer, mid turn I receive under or over steer slip, on throttle massive over steer due to the rear losing grip.

None of this matters because none of this is on-point. All you're doing is, in effect, saying "something that I've show does not accurately reflect how real-world camber works does weird things when set to zero."

Yes, changing the "camber" values in the game changes how the car drives. And yes, those changes can make a car feel better to some drivers. But that doesn't mean the changes are an accurate portrayal of what camber does in real life (in fact, you have yourself proven that they are not accurate).

"I like the way camber works in GT6" is NOT the same as "camber in GT6 accurately mimics reality."

I'll give 0.0 camber a go at steering sensitivity 7 to see how it feels, later. I got to get back to my studies.

Controller sensitivity doesn't matter either. I don't understand why you're chasing irrelevancies.

 

[Zuel]

It doesn't matter what you find anywhere else. In the real world, on a skidpad, in a circle, 0 degrees of camber will never be faster than even a half-degree of negative camber.

This is proof that the camber settings in the game do not reflect reality. By saying that 0/0 is faster around a skidpad in the game you are necessarily agreeing that camber in the game does not behave the way camber does in real life. You cannot have one without the other.

"You" Yourself clearly stated that 0.0 camber is faster in a circle and you yet have to test it over a track. Are all of you finding based on the skid pad?

 

[PsuPepperoni]

"You" Yourself clearly stated that 0.0 camber is faster in a circle and you yet have to test it over a track. Are all of you finding based on the skid pad?

If the cars turned into unicorns on the skidpad, would you still need to track test before deciding something was wrong with the game?

 

[Zuel]

If the cars turned into unicorns on the skidpad, would you still need to track test before deciding something was wrong with the game?

This is why all of my test have been track test, going in a circle only give you one effect.

 

[Zenmervolt]

"You" Yourself clearly stated that 0.0 camber is faster in a circle and you yet have to test it over a track. Are all of you finding based on the skid pad?

I never said that 0.0 camber is faster in a circle in real life. Never.

I said that 0.0 camber is faster in a circle in GT6 which indicates that the GT6 settings do not reflect real life.

All you need to show that GT6 camber does not reflect reality is this:

Claim: Camber settings in GT6 do not behave the way camber settings in real life do.
Test: Camber of 0/0 in GT6 outperforms all other camber settings on a skidpad, the exact opposite of what is expected in real life.
Conclusion: Camber in GT6 does not behave the way camber behaves in real life.

I tested on a track with lap times as well because I know what camber settings I use on my real car in real life and I know what to expect in terms of feel from different adjustments to camber. You seem to be conveniently forgetting all those on-track tests that HOOT44 and I covered earlier in the thread.

Your own testing has proven that camber in GT6 is not accurate with regards to real life since in real life 0/0 camber would be slower on a skidpad.

The fact that you like the feel better with you tunes doesn't mean camber is behaving accurately. There could be a setting in the suspension options called "Magic McGrippyGrip" that affected the car's handling in a way you liked, but that doesn't somehow mean that the setting would therefore be realistic.

 

[Zuel]

Now that I know you are comparing your real life car to the setting in GT6 can you give you the setting of the car, along with the track you tested on?


Addition:
Type of car, shock, tires and power along with any drive train updates.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Now that I know you are comparing your real life car to the setting in GT6 can you give you the setting of the car, along with the track you tested on?

Of course I'm comparing GT6 to real life. That's the whole bloody point. What the hell else would you compare it to?

What specific car I've driven (several over the years) isn't relevant. There is no car on earth that is faster around a skidpad with 0/0 camber compared to even a tiny amount of negative camber. That's just how reality works.

Similarly, I know from driving mid-engine cars, FR cars, FR cars with a rear transaxle that they all have more grip with a few degrees of negative camber. I know that adding camber to the front axle decreases steady-state oversteer and increases steady-state understeer and I know that happens regardless of the car. It was true on hopped-up Porsche 914s, it was true on 911s, it was true on 951s, it was true on Corvettes, it was true on RX7s. It's true everywhere.

It's not like there's some car or track out there that magically behaves completely opposite of the normal laws of physics and I just happen to have that car or drive on that track.

You continue to refuse to believe the proof you yourself have provided and persist in conflating "I like the way GT6 camber feels" with "GT6 camber is an accurate representation of reality."

This has become a ridiculous circle:

Us: "GT6 camber does not accurately reflect how camber works in the real world."

You: "But I like it and I think that means it does work right."

Us: "In the real world, 0/0 camber would be slower around a track, and when we test cars in GT6 with 0/0 we're faster."

You: "But it's harder to control and I like GT6 camber better."

Us: "Liking it better doesn't magically make it accurate. In the real world 0/0 camber would be slower around a skidpad. This is a completely objective test that does not depend upon driver preferences so it's unbiased. Try it."

You: "In GT6 0/0 camber is faster around the skidpad. But I like the feel of camber better."

Us: "Liking the feel better doesn't make it accurate. You've just proven that 0/0 camber is faster around a skidpad which means it must be inaccurate."

You: "I didn't say it was inaccurate. And I didn't like the way 0/0 camber felt."

Us: "If 0/0 camber is faster around a skidpad in GT6, it's literally impossible for camber to be accurate. In real life you cannot have 0/0 camber and come out faster on a skidpad. That simply cannot happen in real life. And it still doesn't matter what you prefer; preferring it doesn't magically make it accurate."

You: "But that's just the skidpad. And besides, I like the way it feels with camber in GT6."

Us:

 

[faceman557]

Now that I know you are comparing your real life car to the setting in GT6 can you give you the setting of the car, along with the track you tested on?


Addition:
Type of car, shock, tires and power along with any drive train updates.

Haha this is still going on?
It doesn't matter what car, what setup, what tires, what power. All that matters is 0/0 camber is faster than any camber.

Now if you are slow, well you may never notice anything. If you can't run multiple laps within 2-3 tenths, then it won't matter to you. You have to know your max speed in any given setup, without that you will never know if changes help or hurt. In other words keep doin what your doin.

Until there's another update, 0/0 camber is the way to go.

 

[killerjimbag]

This is not real life. It's a video game.Look at the known good tuners on here they run no camber. Probably for a reason. 0 0 is faster everyone has tested it and 0 0 camber has been proven to be faster. It us either you can't drive or you just don't get it.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

You're missing the point. Camber doesn't behave in a realistic way by any stretch of the imagination, yet it does effect the handling and some people use it to tweak cars to their liking. Doesn't matter at all whether it's over or understeer.

I did not miss the point then. That was exactly what I was getting at.
I only reacted to @Johnnypenso's comment about drivingstyles, not wether camber is flawed or not. I certainly think it is.
I did read in the other camber thread about some ppl thinking that the values were scewed, but that camber actually worked, but on values divided by ten.
I'd say this has been debunked here aswell, since so many have tested, and concluded, that zero camber is faster than any other value of camber.

 

[FordMKIVJ5]

It was my understanding that rear toe-out (negative values according to the in-game description) increased oversteer and that front toe-out (also negative values based on the in-game description) would increase the initial responsiveness of the steering. Similarly, I thought that increased Decel sensitivity on the LSD would increase the tendency to understeer during braking.

Am I arse-backwards here?

I can only confirm that I agree with you. I'm ready to be told I'm wrong though (not that I'll believe whoever tells me).

You're correct. Rear toe out does increase oversteer, but is seldom used in real life (on RWD) because it tends to make car excessively twitchy and any understeer is more effectively managed through the manipulation of other setting.

However this is of course GT6, so rear negative toe is used but usually only on FWD and 4WD.

 

[Zenmervolt]

You're correct. Rear toe out does increase oversteer, but is seldom used in real life (on RWD) because it tends to make car excessively twitchy and any understeer is more effectively managed through the manipulation of other setting.

However this is of course GT6, so rear negative toe is used but usually only on FWD and 4WD.

Thanks, appreciate the feedback.

I've seen heavy rear toe-out used on real-life FWD cars, but only in cases where the massively increased tire wear wasn't an issue for the racer.

I've always set my own real-world RWD cars to a slight rear toe-in for the reasons you cite. However, I'm still having trouble getting that BRZ GT300 to rotate well even with 0.2 degrees of rear toe-out. It's a personal preference thing, but I tend to prefer it if the back end is just a bit twitchy under very heavy braking and I haven't quite been able to get that car there.