Camber

[PsuPepperoni]

I only reacted to @Johnnypenso's comment about drivingstyles, not wether camber is flawed or not.

Well, you quoted Verbal's post and said "This is wrong", so it's easy to see why he wouldn't know you were reacting to Johnny.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

Well, you quoted Verbal's post and said "This is wrong", so it's easy to see why he wouldn't know you were reacting to Johnny.

Yes. And Verbal quoted me, where I tagged Johnnypenso.

So are all in agreement now? Camber does not work as expected in GT6.

 

[Verbal]

I did not miss the point then. That was exactly what I was getting at.
I only reacted to @Johnnypenso's comment about drivingstyles, not wether camber is flawed or not.

Ok, so where do you disagree with @Johnnypenso then? That's exactly what he is saying, too, unless I totally misunderstood.

Yes. And Verbal quoted me, where I tagged Johnnypenso.

So are all in agreement now? Camber does not work as expected in GT6.

👍

 

[Zuel]

As I see camber in GT6 does act or close to real life. I'm finding the cars to be stable and fast in the turns for me and others have seen the same. Now as for flat camber being faster in a circle or on pacific track the question that should be answered is if there is tire flex.

 

[Johnnypenso]

As I see camber in GT6 does act or close to real life. I'm finding the cars to be stable and fast in the turns for me and others have seen the same. Now as for flat camber being faster in a circle or on pacific track the question that should be answered is if there is tire flex.

It's Deja Vu all over again!!! You can lead a horse to water....

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Maybe we should use Audi R8 LMS Phoenix, stock everything, except camber, run zero all around, and see the car turn into wild beast with it's front grip bias

 

[Johnnypenso]

Maybe we should use Audi R8 LMS Phoenix, stock everything, except camber, run zero all around, and see the car turn into wild beast with it's front grip bias

Or we should give up trying to convince Zuel because like Jack he lives in his own little world where camber is right I'm guessing the engine sounds are fantastic there too and maybe he has the Course Maker as well..must be nice

 

[Tornado]

It's Deja Vu all over again!!! You can lead a horse to water....

Step tuning is always the answer.

 

[PsuPepperoni]

As I see camber in GT6 does act or close to real life. I'm finding the cars to be stable and fast in the turns for me and others have seen the same. Now as for flat camber being faster in a circle or on pacific track the question that should be answered is if there is tire flex.

What if it's affected by gravity? Have you tried testing camber on the moon? Do titanium wheels have tire flex?

 

[Mt. Lynx]

Ok, so where do you disagree with @Johnnypenso then? That's exactly what he is saying, too, unless I totally misunderstood.


👍

Johnnypenso stated that those who had a preference towards understeer - like myself - could infact benefit from camber allthough it is flawed. I then stated that those who prefer oversteer would also be benefitial when camber was zero. I have no toubt however, that camber does not work as expected. Far too many have tested and found it so, for it be just a matter of "taste".

Indeed, I am faster with camber, 5s faster around Nürburgring Nordschleife in a Nissan GTR GT3 infact.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Playing devil's advocate, it's easy to believe it works because slight amounts smooth out the cornering (for lack of a better explanation). I thought the same thing for a while and I was even getting better lap times (0.5 ish on normal tracks). Then I caught on to what was happening; I was compensating for the diminished grip and taking a better line. Once I saw that, I went back to 0 camber, took the same lines, and went faster still.

 

[HarshAngle]

Performance Testing

The First Test is being done with one car and one set up. My Shelby GT500. I’ve taken her to Silverstone International Circuit; it’s a short track with a nice high speed corner. I’ve tuned the car with camber and toe; I will run 10 laps with the camber and toe tuned in, & 10 laps with it removed to zero. I will be recording entry speed, minimum cornering speed and exit speed. First I will look at only the fastest lap from each session and compare the two laps side by side. The 2 lap times not to far apart, keep in mind I’m looking at not just the minimum cornering speed, but also the entry and exit speed I started to get interesting results that shed light on a bigger picture.

Silverstone International Circuit

I broke the track down into 9 corners, but the last 2 corners with both set ups I was on throttle from apex to apex so I grouped the last 2 together as 1 corner with 2 apex.

Mustang GT500 at 625pp Sport Soft Tires




This is just going to test a Camber tuned car with the wheel angles removed. This doesn’t have weight on a zero camber tune, I will run a Camber tune car vs a zero camber tuned car in the next session.

Lap Analysis

Turn 1

Got off to a good equal start in both laps hitting the first corner at the exact same speed of 142mph, I hit a slightly lower speed with camber 87mph vs. 88mph with zero Tunes, but I was able to hold more speed through the corner into exit and left the corner faster with camber at 109mph vs. 95mph.


Turn 2

Having left turn 1 with more speed I got into turn 2 faster at 117mph , but zero tune was not far behind going in at 115mph. we hit the same minimum speed in the corner at 109mph, but the Camber tune was able to hold more speed through the corner into exit leaving at 118mph vs. zero tune at 115mph. I held the 3mph advantage into Turn 3

Turn 3

Holding 3mph faster out of turn 2 into turn 3, I got in at 121mph vs. 118mph of zero Tunes. This being a tighter corner involving harder cornering I was able to hold a faster speed at apex, 46mphvs 38mph of zero tune, this is quite a bit. I was able to hold that speed through the corner and left the corner at 60mph with zero tune far behind at 50mph.


Turn 4

With a 10mph advantage leaving turn 3 I held on to 9mph at entry going 72mph vs. zero tune 63mph. The camber tune went a little too hot and had to ease off the throttle only getting up to 80mph at apex through the corner when the zero tune got to 86mph at the same point. The camber tune was still able to hold more speed through the corner and on exit camber tune at 96mph was only 2mph behind zero tune running 98mph.

Turn 5

Right from turn 4 into turn 5 zero tune had a 2mph jump on the camber tune 98mph to 96mph, this tight corner caused trouble for zero tune as it dropped to 43mph at apex when camber tune got through at 50mph. Camber tune holding speed got out at 80mph, zero tune not far behind at 76mph.

Turn 6

After the Long straight building speed, both cars topped at the same speed 164mph. The camber tune going in a little too deep dropped to 73mph, to the 71mph of zero tune, but the camber tune was in deep and wide, and held 73mph for a bit while zero tune got out much better and on exit zero tune got the jump on camber tune by 2mph running 121mph, when camber was trailing with 119mph.

Turn 7

Getting out of turn 6 with a 2mph jump, zero tune held on to the 2mph lead going in at 131mph and camber tune got n at 129mph. this tight corner gave camber tunes cornering power the jump on zero tune cutting it at 43mph to zero tune 38mph. Camber tune held speed through leaving the corner right into the final dual apex turn at 55mph, trailing behind was zero tune at 47mph.

Final Dual Apex Corner

Leaving Turn 7 hot camber tune was right at the final corner entry at 59mph, zero tune was running 53mph, with both set ups holding the throttle open hit the second apex at the same speed, 91mph, but the zero tune makes it out the sweeper a few mph faster than camber tune camber leaving at 102mph when zero tune was at 105mph.


Driving Impressions

Zero Tune did not feel composed or predictable. It was overly difficult to get into power on exit; there was just no grip in the rear to hold any power through the corner and especially not enough grip to go hard on exit. My lap times didn’t level out across the 10 laps as it was not smooth transitioning in and out of the corner. I would understeer in and not be able to throttle through the corner on exit. The only corners that it wasn’t an issue were the fast corner and that last sweeper exit. These corners using the least amount of steering input. When going straight it was very composed and I thought I may gain some grounds on the camber tune here, but the exit speed the camber tune was able to hold was too much and I wasn’t often able to close a gap on the straight or exit, and when I did the camber tune just held more speed through the corner to get out faster. Laps times with zero tune really a bit all over. Zero tune has less grip up front unable to turn in with precision; it required hard steering input at turn in, then corrections to get into the corner, not much ability to put down power in the corners making holding speed in the corner difficult. It won’t drop to as low of a speed in the fast corners, but the tighter the corner the more trouble zero tune had holding speed through into exit.

Camber tune.

Easy driving the whole way through, laps are a few tenth off lap to lap. Smooth in, smooth through, and smooth out. Mainly noticed a much greater ability to keep in the throttle through the corner and get into the throttle hard on exit with a tighter diff putting down more power with the improved grip from the camber. No worries about getting bitten by the rear end or giving too much getting out. Very well composed getting into and out of corners with most often no corrections at transitions, just smooth steering.

Impression

I first notice the corners with the most steering required, the corners where we want improved cornering grip are the corners where the camber tune was considerably faster than zero tune. Even the corners that zero tune didn’t drop to as low of a speed as camber tune, camber tune help more speed through the corner into exit.

With the handling so well balanced keeping on pace lap after lap takes less effort then constantly making corrections getting in, through, and out of every corner except fast corners and sweepers where very very little steering input is required.

If we only look at minimum speed hit in just one corner, we do not get to see the full picture.

 

[HarshAngle]

That skid pad test is kinda lame, too small and too slow to give any usefull info.

 

[BlueShift]

That skid pad test is kinda lame, too small and too slow to give any usefull info.

Then use Daytona, like we said 100 times allready...

Btw on your test results, it's no wonder a car with 0/0 camber feel "rigth" and it's no wonder a car with current camber in the game feel "good".

If a car needs her camber to be tuned, it is 110% normal for a 0/0 setting to feel wrong.

If my theory is rigth about negative camber :
- negative in the UI
- negative in the graphics engine
- negative in the "newtonian engine" (part of the physic model that determine if a car on 2 wheels is good or not)
- positive in the "grip engine" (part of the physic model that tell how a tire should grip)

It's theoric though.

If it's rigth we feel pos camber on the grip departement.

The effects of pos camber is inside tire gripping more than the outside. I think we all agree we could turn via inside grip. But it needs certain conditions :
- not that much left/rigth weigth transfert ie. a combo of strong springs - strong AR - low ride heigth
- very short curves / very short apex

These conditions imply on 99% tracks less performances.

I think you can have better performance on tracks like autumn ring mini or that kind of track. On high speed ovals / high speed long curves, like the ring of cape ring, high speed ring, daytona, roma long S intro, road X all these cars will be behind their 0/0 versions.

Driving Impressions

Zero Tune did not feel composed or predictable. It was overly difficult to get into power on exit; there was just no grip in the rear to hold any power through the corner and especially not enough grip to go hard on exit.

So as I said I could agree there.

My lap times didn’t level out across the 10 laps as it was not smooth transitioning in and out of the corner.

Could agree (car dependent).

I would understeer in

Agree 100%. I also noticed sharper corner in with camber (1.03 -1.04).

and not be able to throttle through the corner on exit.

There I can't agree. Anything different from 0 on rear, either positive or negative should degrade exit stability. That why most GT12345 rear wheels setups were -front camber +rear toe else 0.

The only corners that it wasn’t an issue were the fast corner and that last sweeper exit. These corners using the least amount of steering input. When going straight it was very composed and I thought I may gain some grounds on the camber tune here, but the exit speed the camber tune was able to hold was too much and I wasn’t often able to close a gap on the straight or exit, and when I did the camber tune just held more speed through the corner to get out faster.

(no offense I hope) : so maybe there a driving problem there ?

Laps times with zero tune really a bit all over. Zero tune has less grip up front unable to turn in with precision; it required hard steering input at turn in, then corrections to get into the corner,

So there we agree but on the terms "grip". I would say sharpness instead.

not much ability to put down power in the corners making holding speed in the corner difficult. It won’t drop to as low of a speed in the fast corners, but the tighter the corner the more trouble zero tune had holding speed through into exit.

You should really test on the tracks I told. The longer the curve, the longer you will figth against the centrifrugal force.

I think there's a centrifrugal/centripetal confusion. Reading you, you seem to use the centripetal force to turn... As Jack did with his pole-around exemple.
Performance are more to the side of 2001 space oddysey jogging in reality, just because of weigths transfers that's are on the outside.

Jack refused to understand this : while having some points, using centripetal forces you can't accelerate mid curve. This is why people say they got better times with no camber. And this is why I tell anybody with non 00 camber tests to test on Daytona, Capering, High Speed Ring and so on, because on theses tracks you will accelerate mid curve or have ****** times.

 

[HarshAngle]

I did a lap test looking at every corner, results are posted above..

Just people use "Skid Pad" testing as if there was something to be learned from going to Willow, I was disapointed with the little tiny circle, looked at it like "yeah right....."

Looking at more then just one corner, and more then just the minimum speed through the corner, some interesting details come to light. These details being on point with what all the people using camber have been saying, more speed through the corner and much more power able to get pput down on exit.

 

[FordMKIVJ5]

That's because you tuned a car to handle well with camber and then took it out.

So any understeer etc. that the camber had been inducing is taken away and you just get oversteer.

You apparently also removed the toe, which I see no reason why you would do that if you want to solely test camber.

 

[HarshAngle]

That's because you tuned a car to handle well with camber and then took it out.

So any understeer etc. that the camber had been inducing is taken away and you just get oversteer.

You apparently also removed the toe, which I see no reason why you would do that if you want to solely test camber.

Because they work TOGETHER. My toe front and rear both tuned to the camber setting. Also, I used toe in on both front and rear, the masses would say it must of been understeering, BUT NO, it was rotating on comand and as you can see in the results, FASTER overall.

I have BOTH replay for upload if anybody wants to make sure I was not sand bagging, but you can tell by my entry speeds I was pushing.

Where do you get that?!?! I dissagree.

I was having understeer issues with zero camber, except in the fast corner and last sweeper. No ability to keep in throttle through the tight corners and much less ability to put down power on exit.

The Camber car was driving presicion, incredible ability to hold speed in the corner. It wasnt having under OR oversteer problems, it went where I pointed the wheel...

 

[Verbal]

Johnnypenso stated that those who had a preference towards understeer - like myself - could infact benefit from camber allthough it is flawed. I then stated that those who prefer oversteer would also be benefitial when camber was zero.

Tuning vehicle behaviour towards your liking may mask the compromised grip level, that's all he said. And not at all at odds to what you're saying.

That skid pad test is kinda lame, too small and too slow to give any usefull info.

It may be lame, but it's a situation where we can accurately predict what camber would do in real life and test that against what the game is doing, without relying on subjective impressions or driving skill. That makes it very useful.

 

[HarshAngle]

Tuning vehicle behaviour towards your liking may mask the compromised grip level, that's all he said. And not at all at odds to what you're saying.

That argument goes both ways, the guys tuning zero camber tuned cars maybeTHOSE cars are tuned around zero camber and this Tuning vehicle behaviour towards zero camber drivers liking & may mask the compromised grip level

It may be lame, but it's a situation where we can accurately predict what camber would do in real life and test that against what the game is doing, without relying on subjective impressions or driving skills. That makes it very useful.

Not really at such incredibly low speeds on a tight corner. Camber would need to be agressivly tune to be effective there and testing a camber setting for cornerss faster than 50mph is useless at this skid pad. Under 50mph mixed result are certain running cars tuned to go much much faster.

Its a good way to confuse people with meaningless results though. IMO just looking at cornering speed is not enough. Entry, corner, and exit will tell a more detailled story. The skid pad useless for camber testing IMO, unless maybe if the car was tuned for Tskuba, then something may be seen. However, all I see is random camber values getting tested there at low speeds. Not a good test for camber at all, not in any way.

 

[Verbal]

That argument goes both ways, the zero camber tune may be tuned around zero camber and this Tuning vehicle behaviour towards your liking may mask the compromised grip level

Well, yes. That's why skidpad testing is easier than comparing laptimes.

Not really at such incredibly low speeds on a tight corner. Camber would need to be agressivly tune to be effective there

The effects we're looking at depend on lateral acceleration. The only difference is a somewhat greater steering angle (we're still talking about maybe ~5 deg), otherwise speed is pretty irrelevant here.
If I add camber to the rear I get more oversteer, if I add camber to the front I get more understeer. If camber works correctly I just don't see how you want to explain that with the corner radius...

 

[HarshAngle]

The corners is too tight for camber tuned for faster corners. I could see a Miata or something tuned specifically for that skid pad show much better results than much faster cars tuned for higher speed cornering with less turning angle.

So how about we build a Miata TC together for both SS & RH tires then tune it specifically to the skid pad to get maximum camber cornering power, but such tight corner will take agressive angles. We can build one set up around zero camber the other camber tuned test them both.

I will run 2 more cars at Silverstone in the same way. Firt will be a tune designed around no camber, I will attempt to tune in camber after the fact & run the car both ways, then I will run the same car, but tuned with camber running it tuned in and with the camber removed.

A big issue may be the rest of te settings. Tuning a car for zero camber may work best for that set up with the zero camber as it was tuned, but the same for the camber tune they may run better with camber as they were tuned.

 

[FussyFez]

The corners is too tight for camber tuned for faster corners. I could see a Miata or something tuned specifically for that skid pad show much better results than much faster cars tuned for higher speed cornering with less turning angle.

So how about we build a Miata TC together for both SS & RH tires then tune it specifically to the skid pad to get maximum camber cornering power, but such tight corner will take agressive angles. We can build one set up around zero camber the other camber tuned test them both.

I will run 2 more cars at Silverstone in the same way. Firt will be a tune designed around no camber, I will attempt to tune in camber after the fact & run the car both ways, then I will run the same car, but tuned with camber running it tuned in and with the camber removed.

A big issue may be the rest of te settings. Tuning a car for zero camber may work best for that set up with the zero camber as it was tuned, but the same for the camber tune they may run better with camber as they were tuned.

Groundhog day.

 

[HarshAngle]

I would suggest maybe some of the lap time test that have been done already get re-examined looking at the corners with greater detail than just minimum speed hit.

The biggest distinction I get right off the bat is how much more power I can put down though the corners into exit. My outside rear tire just holds onto power though and into exit with a very tight diff setting, the zero camber set up was fishtailing out of corners if I got into the throttle too hard, whie with camber it was never a problem.

I see this issue fixed with band-aide style tuning by loosening up the diff. Ive even seen odd setting up the diff to specifically deal with this problem, Diff settings like 11/11/11 or 30/11/11. Odly make the diff feel more open then Limited. Also upon break out the car is composed and does not swinging out violently with little to no control.

 

[FussyFez]

I would suggest maybe some of the lap time test that have been done already get re-examined looking at the corners with greater detail than just minimum speed hit.

The biggest distinction I get right off the bat is how much more power I can put down though the corners into exit. My outside rear tire just holds onto power n exit with a very tight diff setting, the zero camber set up was fishtailing out of corners if I got into the throttle too hard, whie with camber it was never a problem.

Well I'm very glad for you.

 

[HarshAngle]

Well I'm very glad for you.

Thank You

 

[FussyFez]

👍

 

[Mt. Lynx]

You have to look past the feel of the car, and just drive it as hard as you can, and then look at the laptimes. Just about everyone who has done this, has concluded that zero camber is the faster option.

I am one of the exceptions, but I have yet to bother with learning how to drive fast with an oversteer bias. Zero camber just makes me spin all over the place.

 

[FussyFez]

I ran a Miata at Streets of Willow with your listed settings. First, on the skidpad. Second, 10 laps around the track.
No aids.
No oil change
G27 Racing Wheel(Sensitivity Setting does NOT affect this wheel)
brakes tweaked to 4/0.
Speeds on the pad with camber degrees:

3.0 F/1.0 R Camber: 40 mph
0.0F/3.0 R Camber: 41 mph
0.0F/1.0 R Camber: 44 mph
0.0F/0.0R Camber 46 mph

Times on the track with camber degrees:
3.0 F/1.0 R time:1.40.xxx
0.0F/3.0 R time: 1.38.xxx
0.0F/1.0 R time: 1.37.9xx
0.0F/0.0R time: 1.37.086

@FuzzyFez While tuning for the Jaguar XKR-S '11 Super Lap, I tried just about every setting of camber, front and rear combinations included, in between 3.0 and 0.0. Its visually striking how much MORE speed one can carry with 0 camber in the corner. If ANYONE has this secret suspension setting (which is allegedly the only appropriate and efficient setting for camber of any kind) I keep hearing about, by all means clue me in. Furthermore, if we're supposed to be seeing these camber settings in degrees would 5.0-6.0 degrees be realistic in some cases?

I didn't see this as the tag didn't work.

I only mentioned it as you seem to have clear results. In one of the camber threads I posted about a civic test that got faster Lap times at tsukuba with 0.1 on the front. Stock civic type r touring car

 

[HarshAngle]

Maybe for Time Attack and Hot laps, the lap time is the be all end all

In a Race its different, I need to be consistent from Start to finish, blazing one fast lap means very little when there are 10 laps (for example) in the race & trafic in my way. Qualifying yeah, all I care about is that one fast lap. In a race consistency is key.

However I like to eexamin whats going on in the corners with greater detail than just minimum speed hit, as we can see fron the results, that is not often as important as how well speed was carried through the corner into exit..

 

[Boone]

I didn't see this as the tag didn't work.

I only mentioned it as you seem to have clear results. In one of the camber threads I posted about a civic test that got faster Lap times at tsukuba with 0.1 on the front. Stock civic type r touring car

The most notable occurence in that test is something I haven't mentioned yet. When I got on the throttle mid-to-late-corner with that miata with anything other than zero camber, the back end stepped out. Camber does not work as it should in GT6. In some corners while running zero camber I was able to hold 75% throttle while any amount of camber tested would cause the car to step out. I could try all the small values(0.1,0.2), just to be safe.