Camber

[Johnnypenso]

Why don't you run the same test @Zuel? Turn camber down to 0.0/0.0 and run some laps and make some comparison times?

 

[HOOT44]

Settings: No aids. Suspension settings were exactly as I quoted in the post; the only change between runs was to camber.

The car with 0.0/0.0 camber was faster and required far less steering angle to navigate corners. The camber settings you gave made the car plough through corners in a fashion very much like a FWD vehicle. Lots of understeer and the front end was clearly sliding around more. Very predictable, but much less willing to change direction and getting the car to turn took a lot more steering input.

I drove the car with your settings first, set a time, then drove the car with 0.0/0.0 camber and all other settings the same, and checked that time.

I was 1.2 seconds faster with 0.0/0.0 camber than I was with your camber settings. The time delta I'm using is against myself. There is no variable in terms of driver ability because I am comparing myself to myself.

I want to do this exact same test myself. Just to make sure that I do exactly what you and zuel have done... The car is the BRZ GT300 race car and the track is Silverstone? Then using Zuel's settings from page 17 with camber. After that turn cambers to zero.

I have this car but I have done the oil change - nothing else, no tunes or anything (set forPURE rules). Is all that like it should?

 

[Zenmervolt]

I want to do this exact same test myself. Just to make sure that I do exactly what you and zuel have done... The car is the BRZ GT300 race car and the track is Silverstone? Then using Zuel's settings from page 17 with camber. After that turn cambers to zero.

I have this car but I have done the oil change - nothing else, no tunes or anything (set forPURE rules). Is all that like it should?

That's how I did it.

However, since we're not comparing times against each other, but only comparing our own times and how the car feels, whether or not you do an oil change shouldn't be relevant; I just don't see that adding enough power to upset the balance of a tune.

 

[Zuel]

I ran the same test with no camber what so ever with the same suspension setting and that when the car plows through the turn as you have said about my setting. So it just shows that the suspension setting are the key factor in this equation. With the setting I have I'm getting optimal grip and rotation through the turns without making any or as little corrections through the turn.

Every time time I have 0 camber no matter what car I'm using with down force or not. I get over steer at entry and over steer on throttle coming out of the turn.

 

[Zenmervolt]

I ran the same test with no camber what so ever with the same suspension setting and that when the car plows through the turn as you have said about my setting. So it just shows that the suspension setting are the key factor in this equation. With the setting I have I'm getting optimal grip and rotation through the turns without making any or as little corrections through the turn.

A car that understeers will require fewer corrections and will feel more "stable" to a driver. This is why almost every street car built today is designed to have understeer from the factory. This does not, however, mean that this has the most grip, nor that it is the fastest.

Every time time I have 0 camber no matter what car I'm using with down force or not. I get over steer at entry and over steer on throttle coming out of the turn.

If adding front camber reduces oversteer, then you are taking grip away from the front axle. That is the opposite of what adding camber does in real life. In real life, adding 3.1 degrees of front camber to a car that is oversteering would make the oversteer worse.

No-one is saying that it's impossible to use camber settings in GT6 to change a car's balance. That clearly can be done. What we're saying is that adding camber to an axle reduces that axle's grip. Which you have just admitted happens.

Also, your claim that 0.0/0.0 camber makes the car "plow" is exactly the opposite of your subsequent claim that 0.0/0.0 camber causes oversteer.

Ploughing refers to understeer. It is impossible for 0.0/0.0 camber (or any camber setting) to make a car simultaneously understeer and oversteer. It seems more likely that you're not sure what the terminology means.

 

[HOOT44]

Test report.

I used Zuel's Session 1 tune. Time of day at Silverstone was 17:00, progression 1. Toe -0.28/0.53. As the tunes of other sessions had front toe at -0.28 (minus) I assumed that the missing "-" was a typo there. I used this tune because it had the smallest camber (1.9/0.7). I drove 3 laps to warm up and note the braking points and turn-ins, then 10 laps with both tunes. SRF off, abs 1 - just to confirm. I use g27, sensitivity 7, force feedback 100%, power-steering off.
Edit: racing hard tyres.

The tune with 1.9/0.7 camber: the car was quite ok to drive and balanced, although understeered a bit too much for my liking in some places and oversteered a bit in the entry turn of the last chicane. ( the setup was really not my cup of tea, but that's me ) All 10 laps were clean although I did run a bit wide a few times. Best time, recorded on lap 7, was 2:08.124. 5 of the fastest laps were between that and 2:08.5 .

Test with 0/0 camber: my initial reaction was that Zuel is right. I struggled to keep the car on the road at first - the balance felt a bit awry. Overall, only 7 of the 10 laps were clean. ( clearly, this setup was even less my cup of tea ). Nevertheless, 5 of the 7 clean laps were quicker than 2:08.124. The fastest time was 2:06.678. The first time I went quicker than 2:08 was on lap 2.

I believe I really did an impartial test. I wanted information not to prove anyone right or wrong. Certainly, Zuel is right in saying that many factors affect the effectiveness of camber and suspension in general. This surely includes driving style and as I like a loose car tuned for strong rotation, neither of the test tunes really fitted my style, but I think this is irrelevant in this case.

Reactions?

 

[crowhop]

I'm getting some varied results using a tuned 2010 Camaro RM (oil change, RH tires). With the setup I've used, Front Camber at .7 and Rear Camber at .2 seems to be ideal for the Streets of Willow course. Using 1.7 or 0 produces similar results...loss of grip, less predictability. I use the skid pad to test as well as laps on the course itself. Anything more than 1.0 or less than .5 on the Front seems to make the car worse.

In GT5 putting the Camber at 2.5 Front, 2.0 Rear with -.20 Front Toe and .10 Rear Toe made just about any car I ever used better. It was my "generic" tune for practically every race car with RH tires.

In GT6, for me, it seems everything within the suspension is related to everything else. Tires, dampers, toe, camber, springs...finding the balance between them seems to be a bit trickier. There does not appear to be a generic fix the way there was in GT5.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Test report.

I used Zuel's Session 1 tune. Time of day at Silverstone was 17:00, progression 1. Toe -0.28/0.53. As the tunes of other sessions had front toe at -0.28 (minus) I assumed that the missing "-" was a typo there. I used this tune because it had the smallest camber (1.9/0.7). I drove 3 laps to warm up and note the braking points and turn-ins, then 10 laps with both tunes. SRF off, abs 1 - just to confirm. I use g27, sensitivity 7, force feedback 100%, power-steering off.
Edit: racing hard tyres.

The tune with 1.9/0.7 camber: the car was quite ok to drive and balanced, although understeered a bit too much for my liking in some places and oversteered a bit in the entry turn of the last chicane. ( the setup was really not my cup of tea, but that's me ) All 10 laps were clean although I did run a bit wide a few times. Best time, recorded on lap 7, was 2:08.124. 5 of the fastest laps were between that and 2:08.5 .

Test with 0/0 camber: my initial reaction was that Zuel is right. I struggled to keep the car on the road at first - the balance felt a bit awry. Overall, only 7 of the 10 laps were clean. ( clearly, this setup was even less my cup of tea ). Nevertheless, 5 of the 7 clean laps were quicker than 2:08.124. The fastest time was 2:06.678. The first time I went quicker than 2:08 was on lap 2.

I believe I really did an impartial test. I wanted information not to prove anyone right or wrong. Certainly, Zuel is right in saying that many factors affect the effectiveness of camber and suspension in general. This surely includes driving style and as I like a loose car tuned for strong rotation, neither of the test tunes really fitted my style, but I think this is irrelevant in this case.

Reactions?

I think Zuel is "right" insofar as he claims his setup makes the car more predictable and easier to control. However, I think he is overlooking the fact that the tune makes the car easy to control because it takes away front-end grip and a car with understeer is always more predictable and consistent than a car with oversteer.

The issue with Zuel saying that camber "works" is that increasing negative camber is clearly taking away grip. In fact, he has tacitly admitted that he is using extra camber to take away grip at the front end (when he says that he did so to reduce oversteer). In real life, taking a car that oversteered with 0/0 camber and adding 3.1 degrees of negative front camber would make the oversteer much worse because you would be increasing grip at the front of the car while leaving the rear grip unchanged.

The 0/0 setting is definitely a livelier setup and it is indeed a little more difficult to drive; you can't just crank on the wheel and stand on the throttle with the understanding that the front will just push benignly out of the corner. However, it's also fighting that massive rear toe setting (which also really creates understeer) and a tune that is pretty clearly not set up to create a twitchy car with strong rotation, and I agree that the 0/0 camber with the rest of Zuel's settings is not ideal.

Given the fact that adding the camber Zuel specifies reduces oversteer, I can't come away with any other conclusion than that camber settings in GT6 are improperly implemented. This doesn't mean they can't be used to fine tune balance, but it does mean that the settings are not even close to performing as they would in the real world.

 

[HOOT44]

I think Zuel is "right" insofar as he claims his setup makes the car more predictable and easier to control. However, I think he is overlooking the fact that the tune makes the car easy to control because it takes away front-end grip and a car with understeer is always more predictable and consistent than a car with oversteer.

The issue with Zuel saying that camber "works" is that increasing negative camber is clearly taking away grip. In fact, he has tacitly admitted that he is using extra camber to take away grip at the front end (when he says that he did so to reduce oversteer). In real life, taking a car that oversteered with 0/0 camber and adding 3.1 degrees of negative front camber would make the oversteer much worse because you would be increasing grip at the front of the car while leaving the rear grip unchanged.

The 0/0 setting is definitely a livelier setup and it is indeed a little more difficult to drive; you can't just crank on the wheel and stand on the throttle with the understanding that the front will just push benignly out of the corner. However, it's also fighting that massive rear toe setting (which also really creates understeer) and a tune that is pretty clearly not set up to create a twitchy car with strong rotation, and I agree that the 0/0 camber with the rest of Zuel's settings is not ideal.

Given the fact that adding the camber Zuel specifies reduces oversteer, I can't come away with any other conclusion than that camber settings in GT6 are improperly implemented. This doesn't mean they can't be used to fine tune balance, but it does mean that the settings are not even close to performing as they would in the real world.

I am rather hazy on the theory and I don't really know how a well tuned cambered suspension should feel like - what difference it would make from what ever "base" tune etc. I have only driven low spec rally cars and karts. I may have mentioned that I am just a driver - I don't know what makes them cars go.

I did this test to clear things up for myself a bit and to help the discussion in this thread - hoping the results I have provided would help wiser heads to understand what is wrong or right. I am more than willing to do parallel tests in the future.

 

[HOOT44]

... In GT6, for me, it seems everything within the suspension is related to everything else. Tires, dampers, toe, camber, springs...finding the balance between them seems to be a bit trickier. There does not appear to be a generic fix the way there was in GT5.

Too right.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I ran the same test with no camber what so ever with the same suspension setting and that when the car plows through the turn as you have said about my setting.

Every time time I have 0 camber no matter what car I'm using with down force or not. I get over steer at entry and over steer on throttle coming out of the turn.

Either there is a mixup in your terminology or you just prefer a car that is a little understeery and it makes you a little faster as a result. This is entirely possible, in the beginning of GT5 I used to prefer a car that was very neutral or a little understeery, I avoided oversteer at all costs, tuning all my cars with a little positive toe as a result. Gradually I moved into the oversteer camp and I'm much faster as a result.

I think as others have said, and was pretty obvious from the tunes that Jack provided as well, along with the feedback from those that drove either of Jack's tunes, that Jack and Zuel both prefer a car that is very neutral to slightly understeery. As a result you are tuning your cars to include camber so that it feels right for you, but when others pick up the same tune and same settings, they can remove camber and be faster.

There's no mystery here, or if there was, it's now solved IMO. 0.0/0.0 camber is the fastest way around a track for most drivers, but some drivers may use the slightly lower grip that camber provides to balance a car in a way that suits them, at the cost of less grip overall and higher lap times. I'm not sure Jack or Zuel would agree with this, but it's pretty obvious to me and I would think to most others.

 

[Zuel]

Morning @HOOT44 ,@Zenmervolt and @Johnnypenso

I'm very intrigued to see the results you're getting through testing you set’s. Would you be kindly to post them or send them privately? If you all like as well I can do the testing live and post the lobby number here when I start so anyone can join. The testing can be of four tracks or so with two cars each for each track, this will give 8 cars to test.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

Either there is a mixup in your terminology or you just prefer a car that is a little understeery and it makes you a little faster as a result. This is entirely possible, in the beginning of GT5 I used to prefer a car that was very neutral or a little understeery, I avoided oversteer at all costs, tuning all my cars with a little positive toe as a result. Gradually I moved into the oversteer camp and I'm much faster as a result.

I think as others have said, and was pretty obvious from the tunes that Jack provided as well, along with the feedback from those that drove either of Jack's tunes, that Jack and Zuel both prefer a car that is very neutral to slightly understeery. As a result you are tuning your cars to include camber so that it feels right for you, but when others pick up the same tune and same settings, they can remove camber and be faster.

There's no mystery here, or if there was, it's now solved IMO. 0.0/0.0 camber is the fastest way around a track for most drivers, but some drivers may use the slightly lower grip that camber provides to balance a car in a way that suits them, at the cost of less grip overall and higher lap times. I'm not sure Jack or Zuel would agree with this, but it's pretty obvious to me and I would think to most others.

This may very well be the case. I must confess I too prefer a slight understeer into corners, and that may be why I find camber to my liking.
Wich then makes me question; what if camber does work, but those who prefer oversteer find camber to be hampering their drivingstyle?

 

[Verbal]

This may very well be the case. I must confess I too prefer a slight understeer into corners, and that may be why I find camber to my liking.
Wich then makes me question; what if camber does work, but those who prefer oversteer find camber to be hampering their drivingstyle?

We found out from skidpad testing that contrary to what you'd expect camber does reduce grip, that's got nothing to do with driving style.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

We found out from skidpad testing that contrary to what you'd expect camber does reduce grip, that's got nothing to do with driving style.

Good to know. Then @Johnnypenso's response about understeering preferences are just as invalid.

 

[Verbal]

Good to know. Then @Johnnypenso's response about understeering preferences are just as invalid.

Not at all. If you prefer understeer, killing grip at the front axle can make the car behave more to your liking and even allow you to get better laptimes. Ideally you'd probably want to try other measures first, though.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Not at all. If you prefer understeer, killing grip at the front axle can make the car behave more to your liking and even allow you to get better laptimes. Ideally you'd probably want to try other measures first, though.

Exactly. I've tuned many cars for people individually and for competitions in GT5 and some in GT6 and none of them were universally liked and some were pretty average to be honest. But they worked for me and my equipment and my driving style, just as a tune with some camber may alter the handling of a car to work for any given driver. But "working" for you, and "reaching the limits" of the car are two different things and I believe that's where the point of contention is at this point.

 

[HOOT44]

Morning @HOOT44 ,@Zenmervolt and @Johnnypenso

I'm very intrigued to see the results you're getting through testing you set’s. Would you be kindly to post them or send them privately? If you all like as well I can do the testing live and post the lobby number here when I start so anyone can join. The testing can be of four tracks or so with two cars each for each track, this will give 8 cars to test.

Good morning @Zuel ,
Do you mean posting videos of replays? (Can replay videos be saved, stored and sent like photos?) I did not save a replays, the only evidence that remains from my test are the lap times.
Re. testing live in lobby: I am not sure what could be proved with this. Is there a way of knowing what setup people are using?
Is there a trust issue?
You mentioned testing with 8 cars, four tracks etc. - seems a bit vague. I think the test parameters - a fast tune with camber v same tune with cambers at 0 - is quite effective as it even gives the cambered tune an advantage, considering balance, handling etc.

 

[Zuel]

Good morning @Zuel ,
Do you mean posting videos of replays? (Can replay videos be saved, stored and sent like photos?) I did not save a replays, the only evidence that remains from my test are the lap times.
Re. testing live in lobby: I am not sure what could be proved with this. Is there a way of knowing what setup people are using?
Is there a trust issue?
You mentioned testing with 8 cars, four tracks etc. - seems a bit vague. I think the test parameters - a fast tune with camber v same tune with cambers at 0 - is quite effective as it even gives the cambered tune an advantage, considering balance, handling etc.

I'm not sure if using the skid pad at Willows due to the traction control that in always on when off track on pavement. As of a trust issue with testing none what so ever. I also asked for your sets so I can test them and give my finding along with replays.

 

[FussyFez]

I'm not sure if using the skid pad at Willows due to the traction control that in always on when off track on pavement. As of a trust issue with testing none what so ever. I also asked for your sets so I can test them and give my finding along with replays.

Obviously you haven't used it. It is unaffected by the TC.

Currently, without telemetry, this is the best test for outright grip, in my opinion.

 

[Zuel]

Obviously you haven't used it. It is unaffected by the TC.

Currently, without telemetry, this is the best test for outright grip, in my opinion.

Then the best alternative is lap time correct? In fact the new GT circuit should be a good testing ground, flat with sharp turns.

 

[HOOT44]

I'm not sure if using the skid pad at Willows due to the traction control that in always on when off track on pavement. As of a trust issue with testing none what so ever. I also asked for your sets so I can test them and give my finding along with replays.

By "sets" I assume you mean the car set-ups.
I used the setup from your post on page 17, your test session 1.
RH 58/59, SR 17.15/15.93, DC 6/5, DE 5/4, ARB 3/3, CAMBER 1.9/0.7, toe -0.28/0.53
Downforce 225/454

Edit #497

 

[FussyFez]

Then the best alternative is lap time correct? In fact the new GT circuit should be a good testing ground, flat with sharp turns.

Why do you need a best alternative?

The skid pan at streets of willow is an endless constant radius corner, that is not affected by the 'out of bound TC'.

It requires little to no skill to test cornering grip there. Therefore providing almost indisputable results.

Lap times are excellent for supporting any findings from the skid pan.

IMO

 

[Zuel]

Open a lobby while I have free time to test.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

Not at all. If you prefer understeer, killing grip at the front axle can make the car behave more to your liking and even allow you to get better laptimes. Ideally you'd probably want to try other measures first, though.

This is wrong. The door swings both ways here. Oversteer is as much a preference as understeer, and as easily dialed in.
If i set up a car to be slightly understeery, camber would be the last thing I tuned. I start with the LSD, then rideheight, springs, dampers, toe, ARB and then camber. Usually this means that the car already understeers. Adding a flawed amount of camber would make the car undrivable.

However, it is possible that my setups are too forgiving and easy to drive, so that even a flawed camber could work reasonably...



I think autumn ring mini would be good for testing camber. Light car. FR. Say a Miata. Comfort hard tires. No assists. No downforce. Fully custom suspension and LSD. Nothing more. All values should be the same for all runs, except camber.
Something like this:
Brakes 6/3
Ride 80/80
Springs 12/10
Damper ext 4/4
Damper comp 2/2
ARB 4/2
Toe 0,10/-0,15
LSD 20/15/35
Try camber 3/1, 0,3/0,1, and 0/0. I'd really like to know if this "times ten theory" has any merit to it.

Please observe that I don't even have a Miata in my garage, so I have no idea how it would respond to such a setup, or if it is even possible. Feel free to tweak it and post changes.

 

[Zenmervolt]

I'm very intrigued to see the results you're getting through testing you set’s. Would you be kindly to post them or send them privately? If you all like as well I can do the testing live and post the lobby number here when I start so anyone can join. The testing can be of four tracks or so with two cars each for each track, this will give 8 cars to test.

The setup I used was posted already. I listed it quite clearly in this post. I used your "Session 4" setup first, exactly as you described it, then changed it only to 0/0 camber and ran that. I compared my times and the feel of the car.

From what I've experienced I'm confident in saying that while changing the camber settings does change the way the car handles in GT6, the settings do not come close to doing what they would do in reality.

Remember, the question is NOT "do the camber settings have an effect on the car." Nor is the question "can some people create tunes using camber that better fit their driving style." The answer to both of these questions is "yes."

The question is, "do the camber settings in GT6 accurately, or even approximately, mimic what those same settings would do in real life." The answer to this question, the real question at issue, is "no."

 

[Verbal]

I'm not sure if using the skid pad at Willows due to the traction control that in always on when off track on pavement.

This is wrong. The door swings both ways here. Oversteer is as much a preference as understeer, and as easily dialed in.

You're missing the point. Camber doesn't behave in a realistic way by any stretch of the imagination, yet it does effect the handling and some people use it to tweak cars to their liking. Doesn't matter at all whether it's over or understeer.

 

[Taillights]

Been reading through, wow

I always thought the reason the car over/understeered was a big factor.

Porsches oversteer from a heavy back end, the engine behind/over the rear axle. Porsche's don't oversteer because the front has super grip. It oversteers because the back end is heavy and wants to swing around the front, the light low grip of the front can't hold it.

I've driven many Porsche's over the years, I was part of a Euro Car Club in my 20's with Porsches from stock to modified with reflashed ecu, upgraded turbo, the list goes on, some raced some do the show scene , many just daily drivers. The guys who go to events run massive camber in the front. It helps control the oversteer from a heavy tail the Camber giving the front better grip and control through the corner.

I don't get why people are saying adding the camber removed grip from the front because it added grip didn't remove it.

Is the front rotating too much or is it the rear? If it's the rear if you remove grip from the front, you will oversteer More, not less. Take your RUF Yellowbird tune and lower the tires on the front, it's not going to understeer, it's going to oversteer, because it has less grip in the front.

 

[HOOT44]

The setup I used was posted already. I listed it quite clearly in this post. I used your "Session 4" setup first, exactly as you described it, then changed it only to 0/0 camber and ran that. I compared my times and the feel of the car.

From what I've experienced I'm confident in saying that while changing the camber settings does change the way the car handles in GT6, the settings do not come close to doing what they would do in reality.

Remember, the question is NOT "do the camber settings have an effect on the car." Nor is the question "can some people create tunes using camber that better fit their driving style." The answer to both of these questions is "yes."

The question is, "do the camber settings in GT6 accurately, or even approximately, mimic what those same settings would do in real life." The answer to this question, the real question at issue, is "no."

I did the same test and got the same results as Zenmervolt (0 cambers nearly 1.5 seconds quicker in Silverstone GP track).
I have to agree with that "no".
This morning I also drove 10 laps with the stock settings on the BRZ and did 2:07.5something, which is quicker than with Zuel's Session 1 settings. Camber angles were slightly different to Zuel's - unable to double check at the moment - I am at work (tea break).

 

[HOOT44]

Been reading through, wow

I always thought the reason the car over/understeered was a big factor.

Porsches oversteer from a heavy back end, the engine behind/over the rear axle. Porsche's don't oversteer because the front has super grip. It oversteers because the back end is heavy and wants to swing around the front, the light low grip of the front can't hold it.

I've driven many Porsche's over the years, I was part of a Euro Car Club in my 20's with Porsches from stock to modified with reflashed ecu, upgraded turbo, the list goes on, some raced some do the show scene , many just daily drivers. The guys who go to events run massive camber in the front. It helps control the oversteer from a heavy tail the Camber giving the front better control through the corner.

I don't get why people are saying adding the camber removed grip from the front because it added grip didn't remove it.

Is the front rotating too much or is it the rear? If it's the rear if you remove grip from the front, you will oversteer More, not less.

We are discussing the way camber angles affect the cars in the game.