Camber

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Hello friends! Please help my dream come true. Go to Suggestions sections and vote for Ouninpohja Rally stage in Finland. This is my Mecca. I believe it is the stage with fastest avegarege speed in wrc calendar. Not only is it really fast but the undulation, blind corners on crests make this stage one amazing piece of track. It would be great to have it in the game. I also put up a video of the stage driven by current rally world champion Sebastian Ogier and the second post has the video of Petter Solberg's world record on that track - listen to his navigator, especially at around 6:20. Priceless. Enjoy.
Many thanks.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/ouninpohja-rally-stage-in-finland.302671/
 
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The question is then, "How well was the rear camber in tune with the toe seting and the diff to the corner?"

When tuning the rear camber, until I get the rear end camber and toe tuned together I cant gt agressive on the diff settings, but once I get the camber and toe tuned in the rear, I can tighten up the diff and hold much more power through the corner into exit as it is clearly shown in the test reslts. I was having much trouble with zero camber getting the power through the corner into exit.

This is where I believe the rest of the set up comes into play. Either the rest of the tune works with or against camber settings.

At first my Red Devil would break out the tail when I powered through exit, but camber tuned she can put down butt loads of power without kicking out.
 
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Take a car to Daytona and run your camber at what ever you feel is good for you. Then take the same car and run ZERO camber and watch for yourself.This will end the camber debate.
 
Just a question, is everyone running this test with Grip set to real?(if you are, disregard) I forgot to add that in the test description. I'll try this at Daytona tonight. I really have no question at this point but it sounds like a few others still believe "tuning for camber" exists in this game. Fact: no caster angle. Fact: No tire flex or any telemetry for that matter. How can we say we're tuning for camber if these two variables are unknown?
 
Not really, a High camber angle tuned for cornering around a track with real corners used on a Track with extrem banking & where a very low steering angle is used wont be much use to camber CORNERING testing. The benifits at Daytona will be tuning the camber to the bank and very slight turning angle.

This doesnt say much about camber tuning for cornering prowless at all.

What you guys are doing is putting the Camber tune in the worst possible position to show its benifits, seemingly setting up the test to the advantage of zero camber.

I suggest running full laps at tracks with corners and anyalyzing the corners in more detail..

While yes a fastest lap is important, getting all the laps in the race closer together is more important than hitting one super fast lap out of 10 and 9 laps slower than with Camber tuned right.

Then consider tire wear. The zero camber tune even if able to nail a faster lap, will become much harder to keep on th track as the tire wears out. The smoother camber tune staying more composed from start to finish.
 
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Take a car to Daytona and run your camber at what ever you feel is good for you. Then take the same car and run ZERO camber and watch for yourself.This will end the camber debate.

...or try it at Indianapolis. The turns have much less gradient there and should provide an even better comparison.
 
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...or try it at Indianapolis. The turns have much less gradient there and should provide an even better comparison.

Good suggestion

This may be correct, well for the banking at least, just not enough steering angle to test a camber set up for cornering at a much sharper angle.

We can test if adjusting the camber to the bank at Indi and Daytona to see if camber will provide the benifits it should in the banked corner, but this would be camber used for adapting to a banked corner and not camber tuning for cornering ability.
 
Performance Testing

The First Test is being done with one car and one set up. My Shelby GT500. I’ve taken her to Silverstone International Circuit; it’s a short track with a nice high speed corner. I’ve tuned the car with camber and toe; I will run 10 laps with the camber and toe tuned in, & 10 laps with it removed to zero. I will be recording entry speed, minimum cornering speed and exit speed. First I will look at only the fastest lap from each session and compare the two laps side by side. The 2 lap times not to far apart, keep in mind I’m looking at not just the minimum cornering speed, but also the entry and exit speed I started to get interesting results that shed light on a bigger picture.

Silverstone International Circuit

I broke the track down into 9 corners, but the last 2 corners with both set ups I was on throttle from apex to apex so I grouped the last 2 together as 1 corner with 2 apex.

Mustang GT500 at 625pp Sport Soft Tires




This is just going to test a Camber tuned car with the wheel angles removed. This doesn’t have weight on a zero camber tune, I will run a Camber tune car vs a zero camber tuned car in the next session.

Lap Analysis

Turn 1

Got off to a good equal start in both laps hitting the first corner at the exact same speed of 142mph, I hit a slightly lower speed with camber 87mph vs. 88mph with zero Tunes, but I was able to hold more speed through the corner into exit and left the corner faster with camber at 109mph vs. 95mph.


Turn 2

Having left turn 1 with more speed I got into turn 2 faster at 117mph , but zero tune was not far behind going in at 115mph. we hit the same minimum speed in the corner at 109mph, but the Camber tune was able to hold more speed through the corner into exit leaving at 118mph vs. zero tune at 115mph. I held the 3mph advantage into Turn 3

Turn 3

Holding 3mph faster out of turn 2 into turn 3, I got in at 121mph vs. 118mph of zero Tunes. This being a tighter corner involving harder cornering I was able to hold a faster speed at apex, 46mphvs 38mph of zero tune, this is quite a bit. I was able to hold that speed through the corner and left the corner at 60mph with zero tune far behind at 50mph.


Turn 4

With a 10mph advantage leaving turn 3 I held on to 9mph at entry going 72mph vs. zero tune 63mph. The camber tune went a little too hot and had to ease off the throttle only getting up to 80mph at apex through the corner when the zero tune got to 86mph at the same point. The camber tune was still able to hold more speed through the corner and on exit camber tune at 96mph was only 2mph behind zero tune running 98mph.

Turn 5

Right from turn 4 into turn 5 zero tune had a 2mph jump on the camber tune 98mph to 96mph, this tight corner caused trouble for zero tune as it dropped to 43mph at apex when camber tune got through at 50mph. Camber tune holding speed got out at 80mph, zero tune not far behind at 76mph.

Turn 6

After the Long straight building speed, both cars topped at the same speed 164mph. The camber tune going in a little too deep dropped to 73mph, to the 71mph of zero tune, but the camber tune was in deep and wide, and held 73mph for a bit while zero tune got out much better and on exit zero tune got the jump on camber tune by 2mph running 121mph, when camber was trailing with 119mph.

Turn 7

Getting out of turn 6 with a 2mph jump, zero tune held on to the 2mph lead going in at 131mph and camber tune got n at 129mph. this tight corner gave camber tunes cornering power the jump on zero tune cutting it at 43mph to zero tune 38mph. Camber tune held speed through leaving the corner right into the final dual apex turn at 55mph, trailing behind was zero tune at 47mph.

Final Dual Apex Corner

Leaving Turn 7 hot camber tune was right at the final corner entry at 59mph, zero tune was running 53mph, with both set ups holding the throttle open hit the second apex at the same speed, 91mph, but the zero tune makes it out the sweeper a few mph faster than camber tune camber leaving at 102mph when zero tune was at 105mph.


Driving Impressions

Zero Tune did not feel composed or predictable. It was overly difficult to get into power on exit; there was just no grip in the rear to hold any power through the corner and especially not enough grip to go hard on exit. My lap times didn’t level out across the 10 laps as it was not smooth transitioning in and out of the corner. I would understeer in and not be able to throttle through the corner on exit. The only corners that it wasn’t an issue were the fast corner and that last sweeper exit. These corners using the least amount of steering input. When going straight it was very composed and I thought I may gain some grounds on the camber tune here, but the exit speed the camber tune was able to hold was too much and I wasn’t often able to close a gap on the straight or exit, and when I did the camber tune just held more speed through the corner to get out faster. Laps times with zero tune really a bit all over. Zero tune has less grip up front unable to turn in with precision; it required hard steering input at turn in, then corrections to get into the corner, not much ability to put down power in the corners making holding speed in the corner difficult. It won’t drop to as low of a speed in the fast corners, but the tighter the corner the more trouble zero tune had holding speed through into exit.

Camber tune.

Easy driving the whole way through, laps are a few tenth off lap to lap. Smooth in, smooth through, and smooth out. Mainly noticed a much greater ability to keep in the throttle through the corner and get into the throttle hard on exit with a tighter diff putting down more power with the improved grip from the camber. No worries about getting bitten by the rear end or giving too much getting out. Very well composed getting into and out of corners with most often no corrections at transitions, just smooth steering.

Impression

I first notice the corners with the most steering required, the corners where we want improved cornering grip are the corners where the camber tune was considerably faster than zero tune. Even the corners that zero tune didn’t drop to as low of a speed as camber tune, camber tune help more speed through the corner into exit.

With the handling so well balanced keeping on pace lap after lap takes less effort then constantly making corrections getting in, through, and out of every corner except fast corners and sweepers where very very little steering input is required.

If we only look at minimum speed hit in just one corner, we do not get to see the full picture.

He's graph just also proved that camber is working and making the cars more stable in the turn I said said so many times before. Just because you get a fast time with flat camber doesn't mean it's stable. The time aren't very far of from each other and the lost time can be made up from setting the suspension better.
Maybe just maybe you could relearn the suspension aspect of GT6, pick it apart, use some math.

Nice work on the graph @HarshAngle.

Addition:
I think it times to build a system just for video.
 
Granted some of the races are under seven laps and mostly running soft tires, running flat camber wouldn't really make a difference. But on races that are longer stability and tire wear would be the key factor besides fuel. Camber would come more into play. More testing is need for results for long races to judge how long the tire really last with and without camber.
 
You all know that production cars produced for north america have camber that makes the car naturally go to the right as to avoid head on collisions. My wife works for Toyota Motor Manufacturing for the last 24 years in quality control, she knows more about cars than three quarters of the people on here. She has opened plants in Kentucky, Mississippi. I told her to read some of this and she laughed and said it's a stupid video game you and the rest have no clue about a production car or real world anything. Guess she would know they make 6000 Corollas a week and 2500 Lexus RS 350's a week at the Woodstock plant.
 
And on that note,...Ok, I would like to see a fast driver, say @doodlemonoply , run a test. I'm no alien but I'm really getting tired of this back and forth created by opposing sides. Could someone explain to me how(if I have less grip in the corners) 0/0 camber could EVER be faster than even half a degree of camber? I'm not here to measure my 🤬. I'm here to learn. Clearly, the only objective seems to be "I know how to tune for camber and you don't na na na na na...na") Coo-coo-cachoo, let's learn from you. I've heard "It works for me learn how to do it" about ten times in this thread. You guys rip on me 13 or 14 more times, I'm outta here.<--comic relief movie quote thingy. Also, great job on the insult. I come here just for the insults. It really helps me learn.
 
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Take a car with camber to Daytona and put on full wear and real grip and watch your tires burn off.
 
You all know that production cars produced for north america have camber that makes the car naturally go to the right as to avoid head on collisions. My wife works for Toyota Motor Manufacturing for the last 24 years in quality control, she knows more about cars than three quarters of the people on here. She has opened plants in Kentucky, Mississippi. I told her to read some of this and she laughed and said it's a stupid video game you and the rest have no clue about a production car or real world anything. Guess she would know they make 6000 Corollas a week and 2500 Lexus RS 350's a week at the Woodstock plant.
I could be wrong but I thought that was a toe thing.
 
And on that note,...Ok, I would like to see a fast driver, say @doodlemonoply , run a test. I'm no alien but I'm really getting tired of this back and forth created by opposing sides. Could someone explain to me how(if I have less grip in the corners) 0/0 camber could EVER be faster than any half a degree of camber? I'm not here to measure my 🤬. I'm here to learn. Clearly, the only objective seems to be "I know how to tune for camber and you don't na na na na na...na") Coo-coo-cachoo, let's learn from you. I've heard "It works for me learn how to do it" about ten times in this thread. You guys rip on me 13 or 14 more times, I'm outta here.<--comic relief movie quote thingy. Also, great job on the insult. I come here just for the insults. It really helps me learn.
If it helps. I'm still running 0.0 all round, despite my mixed results with tiny amounts.

I'm firmly in the 'not working as expected' camp.



Edit.

I sincerely apologise for my recent double posting!

Brain dead today.
 
Just because you get a fast time with flat camber doesn't mean it's stable.
(insert long winded repetition of what camber is supposed to do here)
Stability is besides the point. You can easily get more stability with the wrong camber settings. Or, in this case, the right camber settings not working realistically.
 
(insert long winded repetition of what camber is supposed to do here)
Stability is besides the point. You can easily get more stability with the wrong camber settings. Or, in this case, the right camber settings not working realistically.
What would you refer as realistically? Camber is used to keep a car stable in a turn, is it not?
 
No, it is not. Camber is used to increase the peak available lateral grip. Stability is generally tweaked by adjusting toe.
Really?

This, and two other threads have been over this many times.

Read the camber theory thread in the tuning section. Specifically the first post.

Edit

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/camber-theory.294762/

I understand camber perfectly well. I'm just having a hard time agreeing with you all that camber is not working or not working at it full penitential. I do agree that it needs to be improved but as for not giving grip while under load I must disagree. I see improvement in using camber, maybe not as much as you all would like to see. Though there is a improvement IF you set the car. I've already made improvements with the set for the BRZ GT300, gained another half a second just from the suspension. Got the car to grip better with the camber I have set going through the turn which is allowing me come out of the turn much faster.

We need to wait and see what the next update offers.
 
He's graph just also proved that camber is working and making the cars more stable in the turn I said said so many times before.

No. His graph showed that his particular driving style is better suited to whatever changes adding camber makes. It does not even suggest, let alone prove, that camber is behaving realistically. If camber in the game behaved like camber in real life, adding camber would make cars faster around the skidpad. That's how camber behaves in real life. Negative camber increases steady-state lateral grip, and the skidpad tests only steady-state lateral grip. Lap times test driver preferences, but an experienced driver can tell what changes to the settings feel like.

Of note, I just went out with a 0/0 camber stock suspension 581PP GT500 on the same track. And within four laps was consistently posting laps in the 1:07.6xx range.

as for not giving grip while under load I must disagree.

If it improved grip under load, the skidpad times would be faster with camber than without. You are disagreeing with your own testing results. But I'm not at all surprised that you're back to the same old "but I like how it feels" argument.
 
she knows more about cars than three quarters of the people on here. She has opened plants in Kentucky, Mississippi. I told her to read some of this and she laughed and said it's a stupid video game you and the rest have no clue about a production car or real world anything

Oh well that settles it then! Right guys lets wrap it up, this guy's wife has spoken! What a stupid comment mate!
 
Interesting read here on tuning RC cars.

http://www.petitrc.com/reglages/BasicSuspensionTuning/

The comparison to a car's real world counterpart is problematic because having that degree of complexity replicated in game is extremely improbable. Something simpler needs to be used as a comparison and this RC article might shed some light.
Everyone please click this link.

In the first few paragraphs about camber, it explains quite nicely, in simple terms, what positive camber can do.
 
Interesting read here on tuning RC cars.

http://www.petitrc.com/reglages/BasicSuspensionTuning/

The comparison to a car's real world counterpart is problematic because having that degree of complexity replicated in game is extremely improbable. Something simpler needs to be used as a comparison and this RC article might shed some light.

I've got a few friends who race RC buggies (very competitively, I might add), but it's important to remember that RC buggies run on dirt tracks with a loose surface. Tuning for that is very different than tuning for asphalt. Also, RC buggies are very light, not just in absolute terms, but in proportion to the amount of grip offered by their tires. These are vehicles that use 115mm diameter tires on a buggy whose overall length is 490mm. The weight is also only 3.3 kg for that same size buggy.

Adjusting for scale, that would be equivalent to the Mustang GT500 running 44-inch diameter tires while weighing only 33 kilograms (slightly less than 73 pounds). Adjusting for scale shows that we're not really dealing with the same sort of physics issues between the two types. :)

The effects of chassis tuning on RC buggies simply do not reflect the way things work on full-size passenger vehicles.
 
Because they work TOGETHER. My toe front and rear both tuned to the camber setting. Also, I used toe in on both front and rear, the masses would say it must of been understeering, BUT NO, it was rotating on comand and as you can see in the results, FASTER overall.

I have BOTH replay for upload if anybody wants to make sure I was not sand bagging, but you can tell by my entry speeds I was pushing.

Where do you get that?!?! I dissagree.

I was having understeer issues with zero camber, except in the fast corner and last sweeper. No ability to keep in throttle through the tight corners and much less ability to put down power on exit.

The Camber car was driving presicion, incredible ability to hold speed in the corner. It wasnt having under OR oversteer problems, it went where I pointed the wheel...

My points still stand, by removing the toe you've added in another very significant variable making the results inconclusive.

Plus it doesn't matter whether you were having understeer or oversteer issues the point remains that you made a tune to make the car feel good and be fast and then pulled out one of the parameters that was contributing to this. It will therefore not feel good anymore.
 
Stock 2013 #88 at Daytona, only change 200/400 DF. 892hp. 6 laps didnt use lap 1.

44.881 best 44.907 average.

Just changing to 0.0 camber,

44.769 best 44.771 average.

In reply to the PM I received doubting the .771 average lap consistency not being possible. .772/772/772/771/769 = .771.2 sorry I left off the .2 jeez.

Test drive mode doesn't keep more than three laps, should have snapped it with the triple .772's on 2/3/4.

image.jpg
 
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