Camber

[killerjimbag]

3.2 F 1.9 R only works on FF cars because of the castor/camber effect that he explained so eloquently.Sorry misread that Johnny, 6 for the castor.
Time for bed 445 comes early.

 

[Johnnypenso]

12.

That explains it. I've been running 17 and I'm getting severe understeer running in reverse...

 

[Vagabond]

Guys, if a previously banned member turns up in future and tries to stir up trouble, just report it and leave it there, then we don't end up with so much of a mess to clean up. 👍

 

[Zuel]

I've decided to write KW Suspension and Yokohama Tires with post directly from these thread and concerns that their models are flawed from what the naysayers believe. Along with the letter I'll be giving my insight and my one concern, hoping it will prompt them is sharing a small part of the model so it can be better understood by the masses instead of a small few along with the understanding on how both models work together.

 

[Gwenbors]

This is probably totally irrelevant to the conversation at hand, but I must point out (if no one else has already) that road surface is also a huge factor in terms of suspension setup and handling characteristics. I used to run a a few degrees of negative camber on my Integra, and it was nice in the corners, but it tracked horribly on the highway depending on how the road had been paved.

Part of the irregularity of the suspension effects (or their failure to match real-world tendencies) may be due to the way in which track surfaces have been modeled in GT. For example I've never had the car suddenly yank to one side because half-the track got paved in parallel to the car's movement, but the patches on the track surface were laid perpendicularly...

 

[Mini Stiggy]

I've decided to write KW Suspension and Yokohama Tires with post directly from these thread and concerns that their models are flawed from what the naysayers believe. Along with the letter I'll be giving my insight and my one concern, hoping it will prompt them is sharing a small part of the model so it can be better understood by the masses instead of a small few along with the understanding on how both models work together.

I do hope they reply, however I doubt they will...

 

[Zuel]

I do hope they reply, however I doubt they will...

I've wrote companies before and got a response, hoping these will be a dozy.

 

[Zuel]

Part of the irregularity of the suspension effects (or their failure to match real-world tendencies) may be due to the way in which track surfaces have been modeled in GT. For example I've never had the car suddenly yank to one side because half-the track got paved in parallel to the car's movement, but the patches on the track surface were laid perpendicularly...

You are correct on the modeled of tracks in a whole, which we never touched on.

 

[Zenmervolt]

This is probably totally irrelevant to the conversation at hand, but I must point out (if no one else has already) that road surface is also a huge factor in terms of suspension setup and handling characteristics. I used to run a a few degrees of negative camber on my Integra, and it was nice in the corners, but it tracked horribly on the highway depending on how the road had been paved.

Yes, increasing camber does tend to make a car more "twitchy" and more prone to tramlining on uneven roads (and even on bumps as small as just a tar strip). In general, increasing negative camber should make a car more twitchy, but overall faster in the corners because of increased steady-state grip. At least, that's what happens in the real world. It's not happening in GT6, however.

The track setup for my 951 was 3.5 degrees of negative front static camber and while that was fast on the track, it also meant that the car wanted to follow every single crack or bump in the road on the drive to the track. For a street/track compromise I tend to stick between 1 and 2 degrees of negative static camber.

 

[REXSPEC]

Doesnt it slow you down everywhere but in a corner?

Im curious how you isolate the Straight line loss of grip from the increased cornering grip or vise versa isolate the cornering loss of grip with what is happening on the straight, with no telemetry obviously.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Doesnt it slow you down everywhere but in a corner?

Im curious how you isolate the Straight line loss of grip from the increased cornering grip or vise versa isolate the cornering loss of grip with what is happening on the straight, with no telemetry obviously.

For one thing, tracks, even "rough" tracks, a usually much smoother than public roads, so the tramlining effect is less on a track.

More importantly, though, is that the loss of straight-line grip is very small compared to the increase in cornering grip, so, typically, there isn't any measurable loss of speed on straightaways at normal camber settings. This is especially true in RWD race cars as these typically run less camber at the rear than in the front.

The "twitchiness" from camber is felt through the steering wheel and is not necessarily noticeable to anyone outside the car (nor even to passengers in many cases).

 

[REXSPEC]

For one thing, tracks, even "rough" tracks, a usually much smoother than public roads, so the tramlining effect is less on a track.

More importantly, though, is that the loss of straight-line grip is very small compared to the increase in cornering grip, so, typically, there isn't any measurable loss of speed on straightaways at normal camber settings. This is especially true in RWD race cars as these typically run less camber at the rear than in the front.

The "twitchiness" from camber is felt through the steering wheel and is not necessarily noticeable to anyone outside the car (nor even to passengers in many cases).

I always found the tire temperature was important for track tuning. I couldn't care less about street tuning in a video game. The best camber settings for in the corners hurts the straight line performance considerably. Better straight line settings will be faster down the straight and usually around a track you will see higher entry speeds into corners. With the camber adjusted only for cornering grip, we see faster speeds in the corner and faster exit speeds.

My problem with tuning camber in GT6 is no telemetry. When camber is tuned perfect for the corners I want to see if the time in the straight is cooling off the outside of my tires more than I want. My understanding is a fast set up for the track will have even heat across the tire, a faster set up for the corners will have cooler outsides of the tires, when a set up more for the straights then the corners will have hot outsides of the tires.

Without telemetry I spend much time finding the best camber settings for the corner, and then have to run lap test reducing the camber from that point to get into the sweet spot between straight line and cornering ability. Its a time consuming process without telemetry.

I want to know how you find that sweet spot between cornering and straight line performance so easily?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Best camber is zero all around, max grip possible. Increasing camber values only useful to alter grip balance of a car with grip issues, like some MR cars with front bias grip, or FF cars with too much rear grip.

 

[REXSPEC]

Best camber is zero all around, max grip possible. Increasing camber values only useful to alter grip balance of a car with grip issues, like some MR cars with front bias grip, or FF cars with too much rear grip.

My question is not what is the best camber set up. Id like a faster way to find the middle ground between tuning camber for the corner and tuning camber for the straight. With no telemetry I cant see how the heat is spread across the tires. I could have awesome cornering grip, but no real way to see how its effecting me in the straights I can only guess. Racing my Ghost I can always dive into the corners faster with low camber settings, but I get out the corners faster with high camber. The thing I wish I had that telemetry for is finding that sweet spot where the improved cornering doesn't hurt the straight line, even heat across the tire.

How do you know when your camber tuned for the corner is not slowing you down too much in the straight?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

My question is not what is the best camber set up is. Id like a faster way to find the middle ground between tuning camber for the corner and tuning camber for the straight. With no telemetry I cant see how the heat is spread across the tires. I could have awesome cornering grip, but no real way to see how its effecting me in the straights I can only guess.

Same for all situation, zero camber. It's one of GT6 main bug. When I use camber, I did it intentionally to reduce grip level. Try it on one of your car in GT6, zero all around and notice the difference compared to say 3 front and 2 rear, drive at Street of Willow, and use comfort tires.

 

[Mini Stiggy]

My question is not what is the best camber set up. Id like a faster way to find the middle ground between tuning camber for the corner and tuning camber for the straight. With no telemetry I cant see how the heat is spread across the tires. I could have awesome cornering grip, but no real way to see how its effecting me in the straights I can only guess. Racing my Ghost I can always dive into the corners faster with low camber settings, but I get out the corners faster with high camber. The thing I wish I had that telemetry for is finding that sweet spot where the improved cornering doesn't hurt the straight line, even heat across the tire.

How do you know when your camber tuned for the corner is not slowing you down too much in the straight?

Zero camber is fastest in this game.

 

[REXSPEC]

I race my ghost and driving with low camber I get into the corners much faster, and brake into the corner considerably later. With high camber, I get out the corner faster even though I didn't get in as fast. I always look for that sweet spot where my camber settings allow me to get in the corner fast and out the corner fast, and that's never been at 0 for me.

I find it time consuming to find the sweet spot without telemetry. Id like to know how other tuners are finding the sweet spot in GT6

Im also hoping for them to give us telemetry in a update, just make things so much easier

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I race my ghost with low camber and get into the corners much faster, and brake into the corner considerably later because I get better braking. With high camber, I get out the corner faster even though I didn't get in as fast. I always look for that sweet spot where my camber settings allow me to get in the corner fast and out the corner fast, and that's never been at 0 for me.

All of the top drivers on TT uses zero camber to get fastest possible time, look through the seasonal TT threads, most of the tune posted by top driver uses zero camber. If you find zero camber do not work, that's really weird almost every tuner here in GTP knows that zero camber = best possible grip.

And higher camber up front than rear will induce understeer, while higher rear will induce oversteer I thinks it's best to alter car balance and behavior using other methods ( LSD, damper, spring and ARB ), unless when making car to react / behave in certain way - like when I make replicas.

 

[REXSPEC]

All of the top drivers on TT uses zero camber to get fastest possible time, look through the seasonal TT threads, most of the tune posted by top driver uses zero camber. If you find zero camber do not work, that's really weird almost every tuner here in GTP knows that zero camber = best possible grip.

And higher camber up front than rear will induce understeer, while higher rear will induce oversteer

I find low camber is fast on the straight and allows me to get in the corner at a higher speed and brake later into the corner, I find high camber to give me better cornering grip and allows me to leave the corner faster than I was able to with low camber. My search is for the middle grounds where my camber settings lets me get that exit speed, but doesn't take away too much from how fast I get into the corner. Finding this balance or "sweet spot" I find very time consuming without telemetry.

Camber settings above 0 in GT6 I find really hurts your corner entry speed and how late you can brake into the corner, so using camber in a tune is hard without telemetry, very time consuming.

All Im asking is how other find this sweet spot, but you tell me to use no camber? Having trouble finding the middle grounds is no reason to give up.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I find low camber is fast on the straight and allows me to get in the corner at a higher speed and brake later into the corner, I find high camber to give me better cornering grip and allows me to leave the corner faster than I was able to with low camber.

I don't think I can agree about high camber giving better cornering grip, I have tuned, built replicas, and tested them since release day, and I haven't found a car that corners better with higher camber.

Try this replica for example, it has 0.3 front camber and 0.2 rear camber ( don't want to use zero as it's replica ) now take this car to Streets of Willow on comfort soft ( easier to get the effect ) and increase camber to 3.5 front and 2.5 rear ( typical real life setup ) , you will find the car loses cornering speed + grip and behave rather bad ( understeer and oversteer more pronounced with less grip available ) and the car will have a hard time to post low 1:27s easily. After that, use zero all around, and the car will grip miles better than with 3.5/2.5 camber on all situation.

SPEC MIATA Replica ( FITT MIATA TUNING Challenge by MCH version )
Tuned to replicate Spec Miata MX5 - FITT Tuning Challenge version
Comfort Soft to Sports Medium
​

View attachment 117526​

CAR : Mazda MX-5 Miata SR-Limited (NA,J) '97
Tire : Comfort Soft to Sports Medium

Specs
Horsepower: 135 HP at 6400 RPM
Torque: 131.1 ft-lb at 4600 RPM
Power Limiter at : 90%
Weight: 950 kg
Ballast : 93 kg
Ballast Position : 40
Weight Distribution : 51/49 - rough spec based on real life spec miata car.
Performance Points: 371


GT AUTO
NO Oil change
Front Aero Type A
Improve Body Rigidity ( NOT INSTALLED )
Wheels : +1 Inch Up - Enkei SC03 painted in silver/grey
Car Paint : Sublime


Tuning Parts Installed :
Engine Tuning Stage 1
Isometric Exhaust Manifold
Suspension Fully Customizable Kit
Adjustable LSD
Five Speed Transmission
Weight Reduction Stage 3
Carbon Hood ( Body Color )
Window Weight Reduction

View attachment 117528​

LSD 1.5 way
Initial Torque : 20
Acceleration Sensitivity: 20
Braking Sensitivity: 13



Suspension - Bilstein Spec Miata
Front, Rear

Ride Height: 107 113
Spring Rate: 12.50 5.80
Dampers (Compression): 8 3
Dampers (Extension): 7 3
Anti-Roll Bars: 1 3
Camber Angle: 0.3 0.2
Toe Angle: -0.04 0.09


Brake Balance:
8/8 ( personal BB) or for ABS 0 wheel : 8/8, for ABS 1 8/8 or feel free to use your preferred brake balance.


Recommended setting for DS3 user :

Steering sensitivity at +1 or +2, all aids off, except ABS 1 ( if not comfortable with ABS 0 ) with 8/8 brake balance as starting point.

View attachment 117527​

Notes :
I built the spec Miata replica long ago, it's still work in progress with some settings/specs still need to be work on. This replica is fine tuned to fit the rules for tuning challenge.
The car uses Spec Miata suspension setup as close as possible to real life, the balance is good with stable rear end and pretty agile front. Care need to be taken when exiting corners, the rear can wiggle a bit, but it should pose no problem

I tested the car at Streets of Willow together with a friend, the car can do 1:27s lap with ease, a good run would see sub 40s 2nd sector ( at fish bowl ). Tune is sill not final Fit Sports Medium to get close to real life Hoosier Spec Miata R6 DOT racing tire.

 

[REXSPEC]

I will if you Try this car at Nurburgring

S206 NBR
REXSPEC-l NBR
.

Why would I use 3.5/2.5 on any car without tuning the camber in and then dialing in the sweet spot balance between cornering and straight line? Typical for what? I don't throw darts at settings, that never works. Tuning blindfolded wont tell me anything except guessing at settings is not ideal.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I will if you Try this car at Nurburgring

S206 NBR
REXSPEC-l NBR

If you want to know about how the camber works on the tune, it has 2.6/2.4, those values decreases grip and gives slightly less grip on the front compared to the rear. I don't even need to drive it to know that, because zero = max grip. Do you tune camber last when tuning a car ? I suggest to keep it zero all the time and use camber as last resort when a car has balance issue that can't be fixed. And the flat floor masked the car real handling, it gives increased grip + stability on almost all speed at a cost of acceleration + top speed + high PP penalty.

Try to remove the flat floor, then zero camber all around, that will give the car it's real handling potential, from which is better to improve upon by tuning other suspension parts like spring, damper arb and LSD.

 

[REXSPEC]

If you want to know about how the camber works on the tune, it has 2.6/2.4, those values decreases grip and gives slightly less grip on the front compared to the rear. I don't even need to drive it to know that, because zero = max grip. Do you tune camber last when tuning a car ? I suggest to keep it zero all the time and use camber as last resort when a car has balance issue that can't be fixed. And the flat floor masked the car real handling, it gives increased grip + stability on almost all speed at a cost of acceleration + top speed + high PP penalty.

Try to remove the flat floor, then zero camber all around, that will give the car it's real handling potential, from which is better to improve upon by tuning other suspension parts like spring, damper arb and LSD.

Sure Mr I know how it drives by looking at the settings lol I look at your tune and can tell you no Miata IRL has a set up even close to that lol.. Stiffer ARB in the rear? Higher Comp then Ext on Damps? Okay buddy... MY S206 NBR is faster.

No I tune Camber first so I know my springs will let the body roll into my camber settings. Doing it last is not a good idea IMO. I get it in the area I like, tuning in the suspension around the camber. Its more complicated and lengthy then that, But I always feel what the car performs best on.

My Car is already tuned, you can run camber at 0 and remove the flat floors on your tune for that car, I run mine as I like

Try the car at the Nurb, she runs considerably below 7:30 on SM tires no assist, I don't see anything about the camber settings slowing her down, I only feel it grabbing in the corners more speeding her up.

 

[Jbaffoh]

Sure Mr I know how it drives by looking at the settings lol I look at your tune and can tell you no Miata IRL has a set up even close to that lol.. Stiffer ARB in the rear? Higher Comp then Ext on Damps? Okay buddy... MY S206 NBR is faster.

No I tune Camber first so I know my springs will let the body roll into my camber settings. Doing it last is not a good idea IMO. I get it in the area I like, tuning in the suspension around the camber. Its more complicated and lengthy then that, But I always feel what the car performs best on.

My Car is already tuned, you can run camber at 0 and remove the flat floors on your tune for that car, I run mine as I like

Try the car at the Nurb, she runs considerably below 7:30 on SM tires no assist, I don't see anything about the camber settings slowing her down, I only feel it grabbing in the corners more speeding her up.

You're not listening.

The suspension settings in this game, and especially camber, do not work as they do in real life.

All the best tuners and drivers are using zero camber in GT6, which is a change from their GT5 tunes. There is a reason for that--IT'S FASTER!

 

[REXSPEC]

I bought a little Miata (sorry MX-5) and built it as your tune suggest. I kept your settings on Tab A and then did a quick tune of my own on Tab B, all parts the same, the only difference being the suspension and differential settings.

I went to Silverston International because it has straights and corners.

My tuning took a bit as I tuned in the camber to the tracks corners perfectly I lost a lot of entry speed, so I ran a few laps to feel out the sweet spot using my lap times with no telemetry. I got it decently tuned in and Im able to get into and out of corners fast.

I ran 10 laps at a time then switch between our set ups. After a few times going back and forth it became clear I would not pass my Ghost lap running my settings while driving your tune.

I am running 1:22.258 with your settings, and considerably faster with my car tuned with camber.

Im going back for some laps with default suspension and differential settings to see if I can beat 1:22.2 like that.

 

[Boone]

I bought a little Miata (sorry MX-5) and built it as your tune suggest. I kept your settings on Tab A and then did a quick tune of my own on Tab B, all parts the same, the only difference being the suspension and differential settings.

I went to Silverston International because it has straights and corners.

My tuning took a bit as I tuned in the camber to the tracks corners perfectly I lost a lot of entry speed, so I ran a few laps to feel out the sweet spot using my lap times with no telemetry. I got it decently tuned in and Im able to get into and out of corners fast.

I ran 10 laps at a time then switch between our set ups. After a few times going back and forth it became clear I would not pass my Ghost lap running my settings while driving your tune.

I am running 1:22.258 with your settings, and considerably faster with my car tuned with camber.

Im going back for some laps wuth default suspension and differential settings to see if I can beat 1:22.2 like that.

What is your PSN account? I'd like to see a replay of your seasonal exploits to witness this brilliance.

 

[GTsail]

****Try the car at the Nurb, she runs considerably below 7:30 on SM tires no assist, I don't see anything about the camber settings slowing her down, I only feel it grabbing in the corners more speeding her up.

I decided to give your car a try at the 'Ring

I purchased a brand new Subaru so I could match your tune:tup:

Using your exact tune, I run the Subaru at the 'Ring and turned in a time of 7:29.465

Your tune is very nice and its quite stable at speed👍

So now being a being somewhat used to the Subaru, I give it another run and push it a little harder and turn in a time of 7:27.209

It feels very nice, and like you say, I could run sub 7:30 laps all day long

So then I take @Ridox2JZGTE suggestion and adjust the camber to zero.

Back to the 'Ring for another attempt and I run a 7:22.590

The Subaru is faster thru all the turns with the camber at zero. It just grips more so I'm able to carry more speed thru the turns.

Your tune is still very nice, but I'm just faster with the low camber.

Great fun! Thanks!
GTsail

 

[REXSPEC]

I think there may be much driver preferance slash what your used to because I get low 7:20's also under 7:25 easy.

 

[GTsail]

I think there may be much driver preferance slash what your used to because I get low 7:20's also

My driver preference is to go as fast as I can with the car.

I'm just saying that I'm faster with the zero camber, and its because the car can go faster around the corners, not because I "like" the car any more. The Subaru feels pretty much the same, but it exhibits less understeer so I can carry more speed thru the corners.

Respectfully,
GTsail

 

[PsuPepperoni]