Camber

[mistersafeway]

I love it when people who are wrong about something are patronising, I imagine it's something like other people feel at Christmas.

 

[DGXR]

I was happy with 1.04 until I learned about this. It's such a huge problem, I'm shocked PD did not fix it with this update. *sigh* If/when it gets fixed, I am really not looking forward to going back through all my cars again after they've already been tuned. Why did I bother?

 

[D_M]

Jack,

What peripherals are you using? Are you tuning with a controller or a steering wheel?

 

[Jack Napier]

X-Bow is a good one because it loves camber done right

DFGT all assist off & no driving line

 

[Mirado_7]

If you guys cant figure out camber correctly, what else? sR, Damps, ARBs etc

Lets compare that X-bow that you have, bet I can make YOUR tune better with camber.

Post your tune for tire n track,ill take it fix it add camber and you can see.

Here's a tune I'd like to see improved. It's on the Rx7 GT300 base, but I'm assuming you can you can handle that.

Suspension:
Ride Height" 43-44
Spring Rate: 15.20-16.22
Dampers (Comp): 4-4
Dampers (Ext): 5-5
Anit-roll Bars: 3-3
Camber: 0.0-0.5
Toe: 0.07-0.25

I can provide gearing if need be. This is the setup I ran last night at Cape Ring Inside. Before I reduced the camber I was running High 53.x, and after taking it to what you see above I was able to get to low 52.x. Consistently in the 52s. I would love to know if I'm doing something wrong here.

(All times done online with racing hards)

 

[Jack Napier]

Yup ill buy that whip n show how its done...

If you guys want to test camber state car track and tune and i will give camber settings to test. Its not GT5 with linear grip modling, tgey do a better job this time in GT6

 

[Voodoovaj]

I was happy with 1.04 until I learned about this. It's such a huge problem, I'm shocked PD did not fix it with this update. *sigh* If/when it gets fixed, I am really not looking forward to going back through all my cars again after they've already been tuned. Why did I bother?

I know a website that can help you. Actually, retuning is why I started it in the first place. The game has a system, so if I figure out the system I can apply it across cars. See, I'm not interested in spending days tuning and I'm too impatient to wait for others to post a tune.

 

[Jbaffoh]

Yup ill buy that whip n show how its done...

If you guys want to test camber state car track and tune and i will give camber settings to test. Its not GT5 with linear grip modling, tgey do a better job this time in GT6

I'd love to see what you can do with the GT350 '65 (no R) as I'm trying to build my dad's car that I got my driver's license in--back in '75!

Leguna Seca would be nice.

 

[Jack Napier]

Np ill post it soon dialled in on SH at 500pp runs 1:40 laguna ABS 0 with no assist. For time compare i threw on ABS and hit 1:39 set at 1

 

[Jbaffoh]

Np ill post it soon dialled in on SH at 500pp runs 1:40 laguna ABS 0 with no assist. For time compare i threw on ABS and hit 1:39 set at 1

THANK YOU!

I've been struggling with it as my first tuning project. With LSD settings I got it to the low 1:41's with ABS 1, but I didn't accomplish much with the suspension. I have difficulty turning in--the hairpins were hard to get around. All my attempts used 0 camber.

 

[Verbal]

If you don't trust laptimes, here's a suggestion for a more objective test. There's a skidpad at Willow we can use with a marked 200ft diameter circle. Drive along that line at constant speed. Measure the steering wheel angle you need at that speed (I did it by taking pictures). Then increase speed, record angle, increase speed, etc.
I've just tried this with an Elise. SH tires, customizable suspension at stock height, zero toe, otherwise stock. First with 2 deg camber front / 0 camber rear, then with 0 camber front / 2 deg camber rear. The result looks like this (G27 wheel):

Clearly the version with camber at the front shows more understeer.

 

[Michael88]

Well, since this is my thread (Get out! ) I just wanted to report that with 1.04 patch the camber problem still exists. There is a world of difference between 0 and -3 camber. With the Diablo Gt2 I did some test runs on Motegi and with zero camber I was like 2.5 seconds faster than with 3 and an under steering problem was very noticeable.
Even adding -0.5 camber to the rear wheels turned this car into a tire eating, wheel spinning fishtailing monster.

Also front wheel tire wear gets really problematic even with little camber, I remember doing a 15 lap stint on Brands hatch and the front tires were down to half grip level by lap 6 or so. (Racing hards)

In a nutshell: this sucks.

 

[Jack Napier]

It sucks if you dont know what your doing...

So wait?!?!?

Ill just point out, PD with megga bucks behind the tittle, manufactuers, race teams, even tuning through sim to advance the dynamics of the sim from track testing the sim dialled in tune, also with serious drivers backing it, ill also nwntion a mechanicnwith 10+ years experience, not only tuning suspensions but fully rebuilding engines...... Only a few bookworms with no experience at all outside reading theories & playing a video game think they are all wrong....

Lmfao

Just think about that, n testing is ways that do not make sense in camber testing as camber toe need be tunned to corner being tested, THEN you can go 0 and test. Adding random camber not aware of how is weak testing lol ih yeah 0 work better then some random setting lol. You first must realize its good when in sweet spot nit until and not after.

Toe and camber work together so you also need the toe correctly tuned with the camver as I said grabbing harder on the front inside will stress and work the outside rear more toe + camber deals with this to alliw your front end to go harder in the corner with tuned camber and toe done right frobt and rear

 

[Johnnypenso]

Ill just point out, PD with megga bucks behind the tittle, manufactuers, race teams, even tuning through sim to advance the dynamics of the sim from track testing the sim dialled in tune, also with serious drivers backing it, ill also nwntion a mechanicnwith 10+ years experience, not only tuning suspensions but fully rebuilding engines...... Only a few bookworms with no experience at all outside reading theories & playing a video game think they are all wrong....

Is this the same PD that got front and rear tuning reversed in GT5 and took 2 years to correct it or a different PD? Just want to be sure which experts we're talking about.

 

[mistersafeway]

Classic.

 

[P_Lav]

I love how people can defend this! It's obviously broken, as many have pointed out, adding negative camber should not drop off grip during cornering. There is a reason why most track cars, and most real life tuners add a bit of camber, and it's not to make the car slower around a corner, it increases the contact patch as the outside tire lean on the suspension, because ask anyone who has lowered their car, the wheels will acquire negative camber as the suspension stroke shortens. Same thing happens as the suspension gets compressed, under braking, accelerating, or cornering, which is the use for it here. Unlike GT6. The current theory is that when you add camber to your car, the 3d model shows negative camber (eg, tops of tires tucked in), but infact, the physics model is reading a positive camber setting (eg, tops of tires poking out), and this does nothing but reduce contact patch on the road, but you cannot visually see this, because the 3d model still shows a negative value.

 

[Jack Napier]

PD IMO defaulted backt to linear basic GT4 physics to an extent to accomodate the GT4 car list as GT5P has lean and a live sus when gT5 whent back to GT4 with better slip dynamics. Still wasnt backwards just your ideas on tuning.

GT6 is better done by far and in it correct many of GT5's flaws.....

 

[eclipsee]

Blah, blah, blah, the thing is still broken.

 

[CyKosis1973]

It sucks if you dont know what your doing...

Just stop talking and provide some evidence that camber isn't broken. I'm getting tired of having to wade through your drivel...

{Cy}

 

[Motor City Hami]

It sucks if you dont know what your doing...

Jack, I will come to your defense and agree with you that the words you say about camber being linked to caster, ride height, weight transfer, upper and lower suspension mounting points, length of a-arms and built in camber gain are all very true........ in real life. In real life, I set caster, camber, ride height and toe all in the same scales session for each track that I visit.

But, in-game is not real world. I encourage you to stop arguing your point with more theory and to post some test results. Speed, lap times and feel are what most care about in GT6. Any other outcomes are irrelevant. I am curious to see what you mean by camber is dependent on caster beyond the photos and descriptions that you have already posted. Show us a set up and tell us what adjustments helped you to optimize for camber. Then others can help you test out your ride. Who knows, maybe I can get faster by using your method or at the very least have a better starting point for camber, using your photo view method?

You can easily tell everyone here to shut up with some test results that differ.

 

[Stotty]

It sucks if you dont know what your doing...

So wait?!?!?

Ill just point out, PD with megga bucks behind the tittle, manufactuers, race teams, even tuning through sim to advance the dynamics of the sim from track testing the sim dialled in tune, also with serious drivers backing it, ill also nwntion a mechanicnwith 10+ years experience, not only tuning suspensions but fully rebuilding engines...... Only a few bookworms with no experience at all outside reading theories & playing a video game think they are all wrong....

Here’s the thing though… PD may have a load of ‘experts’ working on the game, but I doubt any of them would be good enough drivers manage a top 100 global time trial ranking. The physics model might feel ok to the PD testers, but put it in the hands of someone who knows how to tune and is a really fast driver and they’ll soon find all the holes in the model.

Call them ‘bookworms’ if you like, but some of the people calling this out are very experienced GT players and tuners…. They will have many, many more hours playing time than anyone who works at PD and will understand how to get the best out of the model better than the person who programmed the game.

Mostly, I find it hard to criticise PD too much for the finer feel of the game – there are so many variables that interact with each other when it comes to modelling suspension behaviour it’s always going to be tough to get it spot on. But there are a couple of issues with GT6 that are pretty much unforgivable;

1) Camber doesn’t work. Full stop.
2) Ride height is transposed

Just think about that, n testing is ways that do not make sense in camber testing as camber toe need be tunned to corner being tested, THEN you can go 0 and test. Adding random camber not aware of how is weak testing lol ih yeah 0 work better then some random setting lol. You first must realize its good when in sweet spot nit until and not after.

Toe and camber work together so you also need the toe correctly tuned with the camver as I said grabbing harder on the front inside will stress and work the outside rear more toe + camber deals with this to alliw your front end to go harder in the corner with tuned camber and toe done right frobt and rear

I think your problem is you’re assuming GT6 works like real suspension… and that real life tuning techniques will work in the game.

However, if you still think you’re right, build a tune and post it up for people to try.

Best idea would be to build something for one of the seasonal time trials as these tend to attract the fastest and most skilled drivers in the World – I’m sure Ramon (@eclipse) will try it against one of his own tunes and give an honest appraisal.

 

[Johnnypenso]

PD IMO defaulted backt to linear basic GT4 physics to an extent to accomodate the GT4 car list as GT5P has lean and a live sus when gT5 whent back to GT4 with better slip dynamics. Still wasnt backwards just your ideas on tuning.

GT6 is better done by far and in it correct many of GT5's flaws.....

As @Stotty and @Motor City Hami and others have mentioned, build something to prove your theory. Post some laptimes for reference and build notes as necessary. You mentioned noABS and most of us are more than capable of driving without ABS.

PS Every top pilot in just about every seasonal in GT5 before it was fixed, would disagree with you on the "backwards" tuning issue, but I guess they are all just armchair racing drivers and not experts like PD

 

[eclipsee]

I’m sure Ramon (@eclipse) will try it against one of his own tunes and give an honest appraisal.

I promise, Toyota GT-86 @ Trial Mountain seasonal, please.

 

[Bradk20]

It really doesn't matter who's tuning method is right or not. The fact if the matter and what this thread is about is the fact that PD messed up the camber in some way. When PD's cars that they tune that have camber added handle like complete **** there is clearly something wrong. I have a few cars that seem to handle better with low amounts of camber but the race cars that PD has tuned with high camber all handle like ****.

 

[Jack Napier]

The Rx7 I got and didn't see downforce settings or diff, and no power upgrades so I left them all default.

Stock GT300 Rx7 at Cape inside.

I looked over the tune tweeted the springs damps added camber n toe then hit the track for some laps, lap 7 I hit 51.9 but was running 52 low up to then..

Still haven't actually tuned anything just tweaked it a bit before hitting the track..

Post up the downforce and diff settings so I can see what's hurting you.

Ohh and done with no ABS ill also mention those are my first TT laps at that track


GT350

No Assist Tuning, including ABS off.

Sport Hard specific Tune dialled for ONLY SH tires. I ran a few more laps with a few tweaks and hit 1:39 with ABS off. I like that replays if you want...

"Black Stalion"

500pp
386hp
384.4tq

1040kg

Matte Black

Aero type B
Wing cust A

Rigidity improvement installed and oil change

Wheels 1 in up Amarican Racing painted metallic silver

102/94
6.57/5.71
4/3
5/4
4/4
-1.7/-0.3
-0.12/0.47

STD Brakes
4/3

224

2.941
1.742
1.193
0.892
0.691

3.841

All DT upgrades

9
32
17

Intake tuning
Racing Exhaust
Racing Catt

Stag 3 weight reduction
Carbon body c hood
Window weight drop

Ballast 1kg
Position 0

Downforce 0/19

 

[Jack Napier]

PD has bookworks for programming but him Vetel driving i think he better then all of you.

All of it works in game just too much for some to understand...

You guys are fun

 

[Jack Napier]

PD has had many drivers work with them, manufactuers working with then, even participating in IRL santionned events. Yet still the ONLY people saying they are all wrong is a group with no real experience at all. Its remarkable. Oh and i dont buy your track experience at all. To people who dont know any better it must fly, but to somebody with real experience the holes in your story are evident. Copying theories mixed with half understood interpritations are clear to us who know better..

 

[Baltimore212]

Even though i know little about this, im pretty sure people on here know what they are talking about. Its pretty obvious even to me that no camber shouldnt be faster around corners.

 

[FussyFez]

I've read one claim that the latest hotfix has changed camber.

I haven't tested myself.

 

[Jack Napier]

Its not, only faster with poorly tuned camber.

Playing video games then chatting on a fan board doesnt qualify them for anything..

The problem with 99% of "test" done here is a complete utter lack of controlled testing. You see you need to consider your more used to camberless driving that you probably dont know how to even take advantage of let alone tune yourself camber correctly..

Its seems to hard for some to understand it needs to be tuned and is NOT linear. You get the benifits when you dial it into the sweet spot for the track AND dont use ABS, the ABS thing is probably blinding people, yall need to take that stuff off if you want to feel out the suspension...