Can There Be a Compromise for Better Driving Physics for GT5?

[JohnBM01]

Inspired by my buddy "Live4Speed," I was thinking about something I've seen in a thread is that I was thinking about game physics and Gran Turismo.

Obviously, I don't have the computer to play most of the more recent computer game titles. So when I read about GTR being one of the best racing games maybe of the 21st Century, I can't really verify that because I don't have the computer requirements to play GTR for myself. I've read about the game, not to mention seeing so many pictures of it (all beautiful and amazing, by the way). Once, "Live4Speed" mentioned how dissatisfying GT4's physics are. GTR is obviously a pure sim racing game. In the matter of Gran Turismo, however, they have been made to satisfy both a novice and veteran audience. Compare GT4 to ToCA Race Driver 2 (I'm anxiously awaiting ToCA RD 3). The game physics are more realistic and more forgiving. So while GTR may be king, does it mean that PD can learn from this PC Racing sim when it comes to better racing physics? Or should PD just improve their current driving physics build and still make it accessible to all levels? The emphasis on this thread is, is it possible to have a driving physics compromise in which pro and casual sim racing gamers can both appreciate equally in the next build of Gran Turismo? Or should the current build be either untouched or improvised for the next game?

I've played Gran Turismo, both ToCA PS2 games so far, and that's about it. So I don't know what ellicits a good racing engine, or even the best one. I've always thought Gran Turismo featured a racing engine suitable to novices and hardcore types. I am a Gran Turismo veteran with no real-world racing/driving experience outside of go-karting. I don't know how a Jaguar XJ220 or an F1 car is supposed to handle compared to how PD programmed the best physics they can provide. So I'm really at a loss of words. You know, what style of driving physics would novice and hardcore sim racers alike appreciate racing a car in Gran Turismo? What should be the inspiration for a compromisable driving physics engine? Well, go to work, GTP.

 

[kjb]

I'm have done any racing outside of a videogame so I'm not sure how they would improve it. The only thing that I can think is maybe to could have to a full blown physics and a scaled down one that you would be able change on the setting screen. Again I don't know if this is possible I'm just thinking aloud.

 

[Duke]

I've really never understood the puirpose of Arcade mode except as a matter of completion. So why not have Arcade mode be the beginner-friendly physics area, and then step into Simulation mode when you're ready for the most realistic physics they can program?

 

[RedOak]

Nice subject once again John,

Although i rarely agree with Live4speed concerning many topics, especially the 'unsatisfactionary' GT4, i do agree that GTR is a very good Carsim... and to me... it is actually Too good a sim to be enjoyable. I'll try to explain this as best i can:

I think the problem i see with GTR is, considering that i agree it is the best racing sim out there, the fact that it has no soul. Its hard to explain, but the game, when you boot it, it doesn't release any anima. Its just a very american-looking game, with very cold graphics, cold menus, straight to the point settings, no teaching of its arts and only real-life, to-date race tracks.

Don't get me wrong, the physics, the settings, the sounds... all this is great, probably the best right now. But at the same time, it doesn't leave anything to the player. There is no way for a novice or an average player to play the game. No way for anyone but the pros and hardcore players to enjoy the game at its full potential, as there is no way to even start playing this game as a novice. Downloading the Demo will not help either because it is even more cold and direct. You are pitched on SPA in a car you know nothing about, with full of wierd switchs and settings and you gotta lap... and lap...

On the other hand, we have games like GT4 and Enthusia ( i haven't played enthusia yet), which are Japanese, and are somewhat restrained in their realism, but at the same time, offer a lot of creativity, anima, soul... The games are not just about racing, they are about subtilities from the menus, to the music, to the little touchs to make the game more confortable for the average or novice. A new player will not get scared as easily in GT4 or Enthusia as he would in GTR (I know i was). GT4 and Enthusia both seek realism, but not to the point of forgetting who really plays the games, the kids, and adults with kids hearts. They make an extra effort to make little things enjoyable and funny. Even Cute. So that everyone from novice to hardcore can find something to enjoy in the game. This is the Japanese way. You can do more then Race in GT4... you can enjoy the menus for a little while, take pictures, have fun making your own soundtrack, organise a replay order, or watch a funny little guy with a hat change your oil or wash your brand new car.

One thing i have realized is, the more hardcore the players (mostly americans compared to europeen).. the less they find things like 'pace car laps, wash buddies and change oil buddy' fun or amuzing. right down to it, they want the option to turn it off without considering that it takes about 20 seconds to do, which leaves just enought time to turn your head, reach for that cup of cofee or soft drink, get some in yourself, turn back and be ready for a race. Hardcore want to take a sip of their drinks while the countdown starts and the cars Rev to Red.

That's my take on 'why'.

On a more technical aspect... GTR can never be compared to GT4 for a very specific reason. Although GT4 did have a wheel released for the game, it is not mandatory to use it, while GTR's level of simulation almost REQUIRES a wheel to drive. GT4's physics are very good, but are also made so that someone with only a DS controler will be able to manage 'it' without simply going off the wall again and again. While GTR goes so far as giving all the informations a team of 12 pitcrew will have at one time. The level of realism is so intense that a console gamer could never grasp the level of realism needed to enjoy such a game (this is not a general comment, but a console-oriented gameplay comment).

This is why i love GT4 so much. It is very realistic, it made me understand things about racing that i would never have understood before. But its not 'too much' as to get me bored to death for 'before-race preparations' and qualif runs and happy-hour whatever. Its just a game, a complex one at that by comparison, but still, a game. Full of colours and goodies, which still make some of us smile.


Thanks for reading, be nice.

 

[Dave A]

The thing with GTR and GT4 is, they don't compare well. GT4 does have more soul than GTR< but GTR's driving model far surpasses GT4's, if you combined the two it'd be perfect. What I'm more inclided to do these days is compare EPR to GT4, I never used to because I'd never played EPR until recently but it features as varied a selection of cars as GT4, not as many but as varied. And it features a driving model thats brilliant, with the DFP, I've not played a game that feels better. our comment about the game needing to be balanced so you can use it with a controller too is a valid one, I think you should be able to have a few driving aids in the options you could toggle on and off, ones that perhaps don't exist irl but will prevent people that can't handle a full blown sim from turning their noses up. Things like grippier tyres, make the power delivery more gradual ect, things the GT series already has in place, but just allow the people that want to, to turn it off.

 

[JohnBM01]

Initially, I had a tough time trying to discuss what I actually wanted to talk about. I even didn't know what I'd give the title! But, this is more of a realism topic. You know, how much is too much? Can the next GT have a driving model (as "Live4Speed" puts it) in which the driving physics are of something most of us will appreciate? Can we make a compromise to suit all levels of racers? Or, should GT cut the crap and just be all-sim, no handicaps, no learning curve, take no prisoners racing?

I always say "account for everyone." Think about all the people who haven't played a GT game in their lives, or even EPR, Forza, or GTR. When the person in question plays the next GT for the first time, is there a comparable driving physics model that can be appreciative among novices and veterans alike? Can we get Sebastien Bourdais, Craig Lowndes, Steve Soper, Johhny O' Connell, or any other pro-level racer to say that there's a racing game engine novices and pros can be proud of?

I think on console, Codemasters is perhaps the best at racing game physics, granted that I don't have a GameCube (I have one, but pretend I didn't), an XBOX, or even an XBOX360. That is why I based some of my replies off of my Pro Race Driver (worst AI ever) and ToCA Race Driver 2. Duke brings up an interesting point. Arcade Mode is usually like a beginner-type mode. When I tried to race the ProtoMotors Spirra in Arcade, I had fun sliding the car out into corners. In Simulation and without tuning, the sick drifts were gone. I still believe that driving physics should be accurate and precise, but should also be accessible to as many audiences as possible. "Define accessible, John." Alright. Accessible doesn't mean that if you can buy the game and play the game on your console. Accessible answers this question, "will I be able to play this game as best as I can without having to be a complete professional at this game?" Is PD delivering on its driving physics to meet levels from novice to veteran, or are they doing enough to satisfy all levels with their driving physics? Well, carry on if you have more insight on this topic.

 

[Laorin]

John not that I'm trying to be some kind of master thread derailing professional or anything - but there has to be some kind of statute of limitations on how many good, well thought out posts you can give us in a certain period of time.

You've been bringing a lot of very intelligent discussions to light that quite frankly needed to be talked about. It is very good to see!

 

[Disturbed07]

I've really never understood the puirpose of Arcade mode except as a matter of completion. So why not have Arcade mode be the beginner-friendly physics area, and then step into Simulation mode when you're ready for the most realistic physics they can program?

I'll second that

 

[Mt. Lynx]

Like Duke, I think different levels of driving should cut it. Two levels would be enough, allthough most games provides three. But for GT, I think "Normal" and "Advanced" should be enough. "Normal" can be mainly what Arcade is today, ie a racesim with "looser" physics and not much indepth tuning. "Advanced" could implement full damage and better AI, aswell as advanced settingslevels and "tighter" physics that are as close as possible to RL.

 

[JohnBM01]

A limit to how many good ideas I can make in threads? Ha! Hey, I'm only speaking my mind, offering up discussions in different posts and ideas so you can take part in them. I'm not bragging or anything, just trying to offer a little conversation.

To speak of ToCA RD 2, if you made your way to the American 1000 racing series, you are racing these Indy Cars or Champ Cars. Since TCS and ASM aren't going to save you and since damage is a guarantee, the cars can be very fragile. At one point, you're flying down the track at 200+ mph, then you get into an accident, lose your right-front and left-rear tires, and you've basically screwed yourself. I guess many people are looking for the harsh reality of racing a car and not at all impressed by beginner-level physics (in some peoples' minds). I usually follow this logic about racing in Gran Turismo- since Gran Turismo isn't a full-on race sim like almost any Codemasters racing game, PD can make the physics adaptable to gamers and make driving as real as possible. PD never bragged that they had the best physics no matter what any game company tries to come up with. I guess on the racing front, it seems less than stellar to many of those accustomed to bigtime racing sim games like GTR. But then, was GT exclusively for race cars? Still though, even not on the racing front, people still want the best of driving physics whether the mount is a Daihatsu Midget II D-Type or a Spyker C8 Laviolette. How do you satisfy the ones who want to actually feel like each car handles differently, performs differentely, and even feels differentely? And let's face it. With as many cars in GT4, it would be pretty tough to get driving mechanics to be precise and accurate for every model (including different variations of the same car).

In the case of a game not exclusive to race cars, how does GT's biggest rival since Sega GT (Forza Motorsport) stack up in terms of driving dynamics? Can PD learn from Forza in the respect of driving physics, if at all possible? What can they learn from Forza to hopefully apply or improve to the next GT?

 

[Mr. Boy]

All PD needs to do is give players the option to choose between different physics engines (like GTR). Arcade for people who find the current version of the physics too hard, Semi-Pro using the current physics engine, and Simulation for hardcore racing sim fans and anyone willing to take up the challenge.

EDIT-Question for Live4Speed: I know you complain a lot about the physics engine in GT4. But have you ever tried driving a race car using standard tires? It does make the game much more realistic.

 

[JohnBM01]

I'm updating this thread to see if we can discuss a better driving model for GT5. E3 will be on the way around May 9th, so we'll see what progress PD has made in making GT5. Since the latest post here, I've had GTR for a few months now. I've been playing GTR a little more earlier this Sunday. I'm going to confess about something.

The reason why I haven't been about the most extreme of extremes is because I'm not a supremely good sim racer. I never really say that I'm the best Gran Turismo gamer, or even the best competitor. I am an aggressive racer when trailing and concentrated when in the lead. The ToCA Race Driver games shown me something- I'm just not a very good, professional-style competitor. Racing in ToCA RD 3, I found myself trailing and getting passed a lot when I'm not running a consistent pace. Which is why I'm always against the idea of people wanting games to be extremely impossible to beat, usually wanting race objectives the average racing gamer would cringe and complain about. I can remember when I said that putting Difficulty at level "0" that I believe that's the cars tuned on your level. But somoene else said that something well over 0 difficulty is normal. That's why when I raced my tuned Suzuki GSX-R4 Concept Car against the competition, my competition was mostly Paganis and some other supercars. I say the competition in Gran Turismo 4 is more than adequate for the average gamer to complete without fail. I'd rate myself as a well-above-average racer in video games. I'd rate myself as 7.75/10.00. More realistic racing games will really push your skills, sometimes causing you to race outside of your element just to win. More realism and more unforgiving physics will be distressing for most gamers who aren't all that good. Even when I've raced against my brother's friends at Houston Indoor Kartzone, I've found myself trailing on the indoor kart track in qualifying and in the feature race. I think my best time on the course was about 28 seconds, while the fastest in my time was 26 or 24. I'm more cautious with new courses and with faster cars. I just don't consider myself as consistent, and that's where I'd want to be every time I pick up a PS2, GameCube, XBOX, XBOX360, or even a keyboard controller. So I usually hate the ones who want to make an already challenging game even more so, to the point where only a select few can win. You play games to beat them, not be stuck for days and months. It's much like how people said "MegaMan: Network Transmission" was purely difficult, but I was one of the few to prove it CAN be beaten. And I did beat the game.

This is why I'm about "consider everyone." Because there are always people at your level, below your level, and especially above your level. The best you can do is do the best YOU can, not to the standards of the pro-level competition, but what you are most comfortable and precise with. I therefore thought that the B-Spec in GT4 was the most aspect of GT4. I hate calling the B-Spec racer "B-Spec Bob," because I'm always considering the B-Spec racer as my teammate or my protog&#233;. If I can't win the race with my talent and with the driving model featured, MAYBE my AI counterpart can do better. I'll push the AI racer all I can to do his/her best. Without it, we'll have to do things the hard way and have a tough time winning. Even with a GTR-style driving model for GT5, it will only make things tougher for GT veterans and inexperienced GT gamers. I believe in oppurtunity. Racing games can be heard, but I don't like impossible. So I'd like to look at driving models in addition to the challenge level a new model will bring. The model in GT4 is much different from the GTs before. A more advanced and professional model would really give pure sim fans what they want. I also think the model should be appreciative among racers of all levels. That means nothing in the way of "Pure Sim Gamers Only." I'm just one of the ones looking for compromise more than all-out extremes. I want to have the same chance of winning the race with an understandable and adaptable driving model as any average GT gamer. And that isn't asking for much either.

 

[MustangSVT]

I'll share my thoughts on the whole GT4 and GTR thing.

The main difference that I see between GTR and GT4 (and between console racers like GT4 & Forza and the PC sim games like GTR, GT Legends, LFS, etc.) is first of all, in the PC sim games like the ones I mentioned you get the full dashboard in the car. It feels very realistic when you use the steering wheel and you see the whole dashboard on the screen.

But most of all, in the PC sims, you can get a "feel" of the car and you can feel when it loses grip and such. I have a DFP and I do play GT4 with it and GT4 doesn't have this feeling. It doesn't have this realistic feeling of grip/tyre physics.

In real life, the g-forces and overall force that you feel while you're in the car makes you get a feel of the car and know its grip limits and sense when you're gonna lose the grip.

I feel that in PC sims, while you don't have any forces on your body, this sense of grip and overall car feel is much more 'accentuated'. It's just there. Because of this feeling of grip, I feel that PC sims are much more realistic and provide a more in-depth experience than GT4 or Forza or other console racers. Pair that with a really nice in-car dashboard view, oh yea.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that these PC games like GTR and GT Legends and LFS feel better and the car control is more realistic and this whole grip feeling means that the cars have more grip. Not at all.

The best way I can put it is, try driving the Formula XR in Live For Speed (or any car in Live For Speed for that matter). Whoever has knows what I'm talking about. There's just that car control/tyre grip feeling there that's missing in GT4. Maybe it's due to a different force feedback technique in these games, maybe it's the tyre physics, I don't know, but in my opinion, this feeling is present when I play GTR/GTL/LFS, but it's not there when I play GT4 with the DFP.

 

[Wolfe]

MustangSVT, I think the feeling you're noticing is that the cars in GT4 don't feel like they have any weight to them. Am I right?

Live for Speed is absolutely brilliant in conveying the weight of a car. On the PS2, Enthusia is one of the very best, if not the best. Both of these games provide more feedback than GT4, no matter whether you're using a controller or the DFP.

Anyway, to answer JohnBM01's question(s) -- the problem with balancing realism and difficulty is that no two drivers/players are the same, and different perspectives, racing-game experience, and so on will affect what a player wants.

For example, Live for Speed is very realistic. As a result, it feels very natural to me, and I have a very easy time playing it. However, whenever I play Gran Turismo 4 I have a lot more trouble because the car will never do what I tell it to do. GT4's inaccuracies clash with my knowledge of what a car can or can't do, and they weren't purposefully added to make things easier, either (unlike Ridge Racer or Outrun 2, which are unrealistic for the sake of simplicity and fun). GT4 is just no fun.

To put it simply, I have an easier time playing Live for Speed than Gran Turismo 4. Where and how are you going to make the compromise for players like me (if I'm not alone... )? So far, the only ones who have really successfully done so are Konami, with Enthusia.

 

[MustangSVT]

Enthusia has that feeling a bit, although to me it just feels like the cars are bit more drifty which seems a bit more natural, but yea I think it's the weight.

MustangSVT, I think the feeling you're noticing is that the cars in GT4 don't feel like they have any weight to them. Am I right?

I think you're right. It might be a combination of tyre physics (grip) and the weight, but now that you said that the cars don't feel like they have weight, that sounds about right. I'm not sure though whether this is due to the game engine itself and how it's supposed to feel, or the feedback in the wheel.

Overall, the thing is, the feedback that the game provides is much lower in GT4 compared to these PC sims like LFS. In LFS, the weight as you say is much more apparent, and the feedback you receive from the car in terms of grip and control is much higher, and you can kinda feel when it's gonna snap and such. And I don't think this is because of the DFP because I've played LFS with the DFP on many ocassions as well (though I usually play with my Thrustmaster wheel). The feedback is "there" in LFS (and other games like GTR), while in GT4 it's kinda missing.

I think Wolfe2x7 is spot on about the whole weight thing and about LFS being more natural to drive.

 

[Badsight]

console games have NOTHING over PC's for detailed physics

GTR has no soul ? for real ?!?! - please buy the SimBin version

everything the GT4 doesnt simulate is in G.T.R - its a full racing simulator , GT4 doesnt compare - its so hardware bound its not funny

GTR puts you on the track with more realisim than any racing game yet made . if you find detailed physics less enjoyable then your out for arcade fun , yes it is black & white like that because you cant label GT a sim - it dodges & misses out on far too much

in GTR you apply real technique

in console games you learn the way the game makers have made it handel like

 

[Dave A]

GT4's physics fail mainly when it comes down to the tyre's, the actual driving physics are very good. Not the best, but still very good, however the tyre physics do not simulate real life tyre's all that well, especially the racing tyre's. Finally, figuring out where your car's limit is is harder n GT4 than say LFS or GTR because you can't feel the car's weight as much may be the reason, the weight is there and simulated in GT4, the game just doesn't convey it to the player as well as it could do, though this may also be affected by the tyre physics. Overall GT4 is not a game for arcade racer's, it's a game for sim fans, but while not being totally accurate, it offers far more diversity than any other racer out there.

That's my take on it anyway.

 

[JohnBM01]

So, how would you remedy the tire physics situation?

 

[MasterDriver]

console games have NOTHING over PC's for detailed physics

GTR has no soul ? for real ?!?! - please buy the SimBin version

everything the GT4 doesnt simulate is in G.T.R - its a full racing simulator , GT4 doesnt compare - its so hardware bound its not funny

GTR puts you on the track with more realisim than any racing game yet made . if you find detailed physics less enjoyable then your out for arcade fun , yes it is black & white like that because you cant label GT a sim - it dodges & misses out on far too much

in GTR you apply real technique

in console games you learn the way the game makers have made it handel like

I agree.. I am a GT4 fan 4 life. And i love REalism. However This game was created for the PS2.. as in 32MB of RAM PS2. obvioulsy its bound by its hardware, GTR seems very interesting i'll have to check it out. But I totally believe the next GT - GT5, will be as the producer said, 100x's more detailed.. It has to be they have alot more freedom, INCLUDING BLU-RAY, which u can fill with 1000's of cars hahahah, (goes crazy) hahahahaha .........

 

[Dave A]

So, how would you remedy the tire physics situation?

I don't know, I know what I'd want. I guess when you start a game they could give you (ie the player) a choice of simulation tyre's (the whole tyre choice simulates the comparable real life tyre's), grippier tyre's (like they are now) or to offer both in the tune shop side by side. At least that way you don't alienate people who like the tyre's the way they are now and you please the people that would like it to be more realisitic.

Obviously this would have to be taken into account for online races, the host player would have to set what type's of tyre's would be allowed, Sim, grippy or both and then which compounds within thoes tyre type's you can use for his races, but going further into that is another topic.

 

[Wolfe]

I agree.. I am a GT4 fan 4 life. And i love REalism. However This game was created for the PS2.. as in 32MB of RAM PS2. obvioulsy its bound by its hardware, GTR seems very interesting i'll have to check it out. But I totally believe the next GT - GT5, will be as the producer said, 100x's more detailed.. It has to be they have alot more freedom, INCLUDING BLU-RAY, which u can fill with 1000's of cars hahahah, (goes crazy) hahahahaha .........

"Bound by its hardware?" How do you explain Enthusia, Richard Burns Rally, and TRD3, then? All three are more realistic, and TRD3 even had enough power left to put a larger amount of cars on the track. And let's not forget the GT4-based Tourist Trophy, which is totally outclassed by pretty much every other major motorcycle racing game on the market as far as realism and bikes-per-race go, without sacrificing much in the way of graphics.

The hardware limitation theory is just an excuse to hide the fact that PD doesn't know how to program a game efficiently.

GT4's physics fail mainly when it comes down to the tyre's, the actual driving physics are very good. Not the best, but still very good, however the tyre physics do not simulate real life tyre's all that well, especially the racing tyre's. Finally, figuring out where your car's limit is is harder n GT4 than say LFS or GTR because you can't feel the car's weight as much may be the reason, the weight is there and simulated in GT4, the game just doesn't convey it to the player as well as it could do, though this may also be affected by the tyre physics. Overall GT4 is not a game for arcade racer's, it's a game for sim fans, but while not being totally accurate, it offers far more diversity than any other racer out there.

That's my take on it anyway.

That would be a valid point, but I disagree about the behavior of GT4's physics. Excluding the poor tire model, GT4's cars seem to move like a single object, rather than a body/chassis suspended on four independent wheels/tires that all influence the car in different ways through contact with the ground.

Konami had a good explanation for the distinction here. Live for Speed is the ultimate embodiment of this theory of racing sim physics programming. Nothing is predetermined -- everything happens based on what the powertrain, wheels, suspension, etc. do.

So, how would you remedy the tire physics situation?

I'm not sure. Too many people are incompetent when it comes to a real driving sim, but too many half-assed or semi-arcadey sims are downright confusing or frustrating for an experienced sim player. I've always thought Enthusia struck the perfect balance between realism and playability, but it seems there are very few people who agree.

 

[Badsight]

GT4 isnt only simplified in tyre physics

it cheats in front end versus rear end handeling & grip

GT4 has very little slow speed programming - it replicates weight shifts well when your pushing the car but the power only is in effect when you have your momentum up - 400+ Hp car can end swop nearly instantly when you drop the clutch

GT4 runs very smoothly , & for the PS2 it does have good graphics - i dont think its badly coded , its just simplified

 

[BMWteamPTG]

I've really never understood the puirpose of Arcade mode except as a matter of completion. So why not have Arcade mode be the beginner-friendly physics area, and then step into Simulation mode when you're ready for the most realistic physics they can program?

kudos...ive thought that too. if youre a beginner, refine your skills, or gain them if you have none. then work up to simulation.

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

-> I like the topic regarding improving the physics and all in GT5 however, one game that you guy left off regarding this very topic. Enthusia is that game they generated the VGS sytem and I think they did a pretty good job at it but at the expense of fun playing the game. (:

 

[HACKr]

I've really never understood the puirpose of Arcade mode except as a matter of completion. So why not have Arcade mode be the beginner-friendly physics area, and then step into Simulation mode when you're ready for the most realistic physics they can program?

I agree. It could also be sped up a bit too just like the arcade games.

 

[Tenacious D]

You guys who say you can feel the weight of the car better in GTR, Enthusia and LFS, I'm not sure what to do with you guys. I feel completely like I'm hang gliding behind the car in GTR, with a James Bond-like remote control in my hands. I'm still not all that interested in installing Live For Speed on my PC, with I think 3 fantasy cars and tracks. I might give it a go this summer when I have loads of free time and blowing a few hours fussing with yet another PC sim won't matter so much.

Just getting a taste of Enthusia, let me say, I'm not enthused. And that upgrade system. 1, 2, 3, 4... what the heck??

Anyway, I'm going to stick with Forza till I beat the monster. It had some of the same issues that GTR has, but at least I can turn up the non-engine car sounds so I can hear what the tires are doing now and that helped out a lot. But the limited camera angles aren't.

I'll say it again. No game has put me in the car like Gran Turismo has put me in the car. If the upcoming games can't do it, I'm not interested. Except in Forza 2, I've developed the taste, and Forza has that GT-like car variety I crave. Plus, Ferrari!

 

[Wolfe]

You guys who say you can feel the weight of the car better in GTR, Enthusia and LFS, I'm not sure what to do with you guys. I feel completely like I'm hang gliding behind the car in GTR, with a James Bond-like remote control in my hands. I'm still not all that interested in installing Live For Speed on my PC, with I think 3 fantasy cars and tracks. I might give it a go this summer when I have loads of free time and blowing a few hours fussing with yet another PC sim won't matter so much.

I would actually agree that GTR/GTL don't provide much feedback, but they still provide more than GT4, IMO.

Live for Speed only has three cars and one track if you play the demo...the full version has more to choose from. I also wouldn't worry about "fussing" with it much -- physics-wise, it's very hardcore, but menu-layout-and-racing-wise, it's quite arcadey. You'll be able to do plenty of driving without having to set a billion different options or going through several menus.

Just getting a taste of Enthusia, let me say, I'm not enthused. And that upgrade system. 1, 2, 3, 4... what the heck??

It would help if you would play it some more and tell us what you think -- this topic is about driving physics, not upgrade systems.

 

[Tenacious D]

Well, it's going to be a while till I touch another game. I don't like going back and forth and relearning how to drive a game when I'm wanting to advance in one in particular.

I think those of you who who insist that GT4 is so bad should give some details. Don't give me that "crap physics" or "tires that are completely wrong." Come right out and say what it is in english in detail, in a way that makes sense. Like McLaren's "I can't do donuts in GT4."

 

[TheCracker]

I think those of you who who insist that GT4 is so bad should give some details. Don't give me that "crap physics" or "tires that are completely wrong." Come right out and say what it is in english in detail, in a way that makes sense. Like McLaren's "I can't do donuts in GT4."

GT4's cars move like concrete blocks - they have no real feeling of 'weight' - the feeling you get with a quick change of direction seems limited only by downforce and tyre type - the weight of the car doesn't seem to figure. The problem is highlighted when you hit another car - even with a fast closing rate, the car you hit moves very little in comparison. Try starting a race, say at El Capitan. Start at the back of the grid and follow the cars to the first proper corner (the 180 degree left hander) instead of braking just run into the back of one of the A.I. cars. In reality, and many other games, you would both fly off the track heavily - in GT4 you just slow down to the other cars pace and he just moves slightly off line. Does this seem like realistic physics?

 

[Arkanen]

What can i say guys, you got a point about GT4, i love simulations, the harder the game the more i enjoy it, its more challenging, arcade style isn't fun anymore for me because look so unreal

Tenacious D said he have to le-learn how to drive a game, thats because of games that he play don't have realistic physics, if they had, he would only have to learn how to drive a racing car once (with proper wheel of course), then he could even drive racing cars in RL....

I have played few racing games, thats what i like about them in this order of like more, less on the end:

- Live for Speed: handling, damage, psychics, accesibility (you can just run it and kick in multiplayer, and after 30 minutes you won't be last one. Yes in demo there is only 3 tracks and 3 cars, but thats enough to keep you for a months - online mode is whats shine here). If you don't have wheel, you can play it on mouse, thats my first racing game that i have played on mouse and its very good and precise controller after all. I think its fair that you can test this game online and then if you like it, buy a full S2 (for all new things) license (something like 26 GBP). Recently they released new patch and now its realism is better then ever http://www.liveforspeed.net/?page=t_a_u

- GT4: 3 words - cars, tracks and replays handling isn't bad, but damage model don't exist, crashes don't look real. Too many things traded for a better presentation :/ Clutch, cocpit view... How can "real car simulator" don't have these ? Thats biggest question, maybe thats just advertising slogan, so it should be changed to "Real Bumper/Hood Simulator"

- GTR - hardcore simulation of FIA championship, best car sounds on earth, you have to hear it! Sometimes too hardcore, LFS is more accessible for most people, not sure about network code at this moment, as they patched it few times (i have only demo), but i heard it wasn't good at beginning. Oh i would forgot you can setup AI to whatever you want (easier, real, hardcore don't remember all), its so much better then dumb AI in LFS (but remember LFS is net game after all) and GT4 (should have better AI ).

- Grand Prix Legends - that game is old (1998), but i have tried it recently as still lot of people play it, so i wanted to test out whats the hype is all about, its still good simulation after all these years, i'm not too much into old F1 cars but its still good game, with real old tracks and cars. Very good modding community, made lot of patches, mods, cars and tracks.

- GT Legends, game from guys that have made GTR earlier, haven't played it long enough but its great if you like old cars, better graphic then GTR, not sure that they improved network code over GTR.

There're also other titles worth mentioning, most in progress like rFactor or netkar pro. I'm truly sorry that i haven't played FORZA, Richard Burns Rally or discussed here Enthusia (i have to test it in near future as it sounds very interesting and promising).

Polyphony Digital take these guys from LFS team (i think are only 3 of them making it), give them real tracks and real cars licenses and you will get simulation you haven't even imagined in your wicked wet fantasies

Ok lets end this boring long post, if you have pc, you HAVE to play LFS (its only 130 MB zipped) and GTR (demo). If you have ps2 you know what you can play anyway After all its Gran Turismo forum, right ?

PS. Sorry for my bad engrish.