Can There Be a Compromise for Better Driving Physics for GT5?

[Tenacious D]

When you say the cars in Enthusia shake, jerk, and roll around like they're on springs, you make yourself look silly, because that's what they should do -- in case you didn't know, cars have springs. 💡

When I say physics, I mean the behavior and motion of a car in different cornering situations, and how it reacts to changes in brake, steering, or throttle input.

When you say physics, apparently, you mean how much the screen tilts when a car turns...?

Dude, when I say the cars in Enthusia shake, jerk, and roll around like they're on springs, I mean like a couple of hefty college kids are bouncing on the fenders. This is the only game I've ever seen where when you accellerate, the nose goes into the air, and when you let off the gas, the nose bows drastically. I've never seen anything like it in any game I've ever played, or on the street in real life. Except when hydraulics are involved. And I drove it with both views, and it was almost disorienting.

I think everything you've said pertains to comparing Gran Turismo to other games you prefer. There's only a few gamers who've complained as loudly as a few of you PC sim guys, and a few hobby racing guys. Just about everyone else on the planet is pretty happy with it. I seriously doubt that you've done much actual wrecking in a real car, because driving issues which occur in real live cars doesn't follow a precise performance envelope. Frankly, when the car leaves the track in GT4, it looks exactly like it does in a real life race. I'm not sure what you're even getting at anymore, except you just don't like it.

You may disagree, but I find that Enthusia balanced realism, the limitations of the PS2, and playability with the Dual Shock superbly. That's why it gets my vote as the best PS2 sim.

You should have said at the very start of this crazy taxi ride that you play with a controller. That would have cleared up about a Himalaya's worth of confusion. Controller guy. Okay, neat. I look forward to the video.

 

[Wolfe]

This is the only game I've ever seen where...the nose bows drastically.

*coughGT4cough*

I admit, I took some liberties with that quote, but it still applies.

I understand what you're saying about the pitch and roll, but have you ever really driven a real-life car to its limits? They roll, dive, and squat a lot more than you may think, especially older cars.

Besides, I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a virtual car that rolls/pitches too much than a car that doesn't roll/pitch at all. It helps you understand what the car is doing. Yes, yes, I know, I complain about GT4's brake dive, but that's because the only thing it tells you is that you're braking hard, and doesn't match the rest of the suspension movement in the game.

I think everything you've said pertains to comparing Gran Turismo to other games you prefer. There's only a few gamers who've complained as loudly as a few of you PC sim guys, and a few hobby racing guys. Just about everyone else on the planet is pretty happy with it.

Uh, yeah, of course everything I've said pertains to comparing GT4 to other games I prefer. Sorry if I'm raining on your parade without showing you any other games that suck, but we happen to be arguing over one of my least-favorite games. 'Tis an unfortunate coincidence if you were expecting anything else.

Just about everyone else on the planet is happy with it because many of them don't know GT4 is flawed, and/or don't know that there's something better out there. Some are happy with it despite acknowledging its faults, and like it for some reason or another, and as far as I'm concerned, more power to them. However, that doesn't mean the faults aren't a problem.

I seriously doubt that you've done much actual wrecking in a real car, because driving issues which occur in real live cars doesn't follow a precise performance envelope. Frankly, when the car leaves the track in GT4, it looks exactly like it does in a real life race. I'm not sure what you're even getting at anymore, except you just don't like it.

I have no idea what you're trying to say with that first sentence. Perhaps if you reworded it...

Hey, guess what? When cars leave the track in PGR, or Sega GT, or R: Racing Evolution, it looks exactly like it does in a real life race. I guess that means that they're really realistic sims, and just as good as GT4, huh?

I already figured that you're not following what I'm saying, based on all of the questions and argumentative support I've thrown out there that you've completely ignored. You've also successfully evaded my request for an evaluation of Enthusia's physics several times, now. I want descriptions of understeer, oversteer, and anything else related to cornering, not a complaint about how the car tilts too much.

You should have said at the very start of this crazy taxi ride that you play with a controller. That would have cleared up about a Himalaya's worth of confusion. Controller guy. Okay, neat. I look forward to the video.

Yeah, I play with a controller. I'm too lazy to set up my DFP most of the time, and when I did play GT4 with it, the only thing that changed is that countersteer became somewhat less sensitive. That's it. I decided that using the DFP for Live for Speed would be much more productive.

In any case, the "player one" USB slot on my PS2 happens to short out the entire system whenever I plug the DFP into it, so I'm stuck looking at the second-player half of a split screen if I want to drive with a wheel.

 

[Tenacious D]

I'm not going to try and drive Enthusia anymore. It's just nothing like the opening Miata demo in any way, shape or form, and I've driven enough racing games to see that something was seriously frooky with Enthusia. You like your game, and that's cool, and I think I'll leave it at that.

 

[Arkanen]

Tenacious D: i'm also driving without wheel sometimes, for example in LFS if i want to play few minutes on net, its even easier to drift then with DFP because of some delay i have on input from wheel, still don't know why...

I like GT4 because of japanese cars (which i love) and real tracks, its great to play it on DFP, i like this game as it is, but there are much more realistic games. Yes i know ps2 have limited processing power, but still there're some things that could be done and i don't know why they didn't made it into finished game.

I would love to see GT5 to be real "Real Driving Simulator" so we all will be happy
Now i propose lets all play LFS on net for a peace , maybe some crazy drift session ? Peace out

 

[MasterGT]

People who recommend PC games, such as GT-R, always forget to warn about the very dangerous copy-protection scheme used - Starforce. It's real bad news! Other racing games use it, too, but rFactor does not. It also has a half decent open-source community behind it. The main reason I won't likely use a PC racing game are the hardware requirements. People complain about the PS2 being limited. PC games limit us in just the opposite way!

Enthusia: I have to agree with Tenacious D here. When I played the demo, it was unreal. The amount of tire slippage at slow speeds is wrong. Tire traction, in general, was out to lunch and, without it, you don't have a great feel for the cars. I am looking for a low-cost used copy, but can't come to grips with paying $27CDN for one, so that I can play the final version. I can't imagine it would be much better, though.

Many PS2 games get traction wrong, and wet or recent dirt traction is just weird now. This includes GT4 and Enthusia and ToCA3. You don't have to drive a real car much to realise something is very wrong with these sims (humans are very adaptable, though), so let's hope each dev does a much better job with some aspects of their games, especially separating the "arcade" stuff from the "serious" stuff.

ToCA3 has poor graphics at the expense of great(er) sound quality. GT4 has the opposite of this. The PS3 should unleash the devs and allow us to get much better sims, if the devs do everything right.

I'm not going to debate these points, since most of them are as obvious as the nose on your face (somebody will try to argue, anyway), and it's just how I feel about these games.

Cheers,

MasterGT

 

[Dave A]

GTR doesn't use it as far as I'm aware, RD3 does, but I've never had any problems with Starforce, though I do know some people have had big problems.

 

[MustangSVT]

GTR, GT Legends, Race Driver 2, Race Driver 3, all these four games have Starforce. I've never had problems with it though.

 

[Dave A]

That still leaves a good few sim's that don't use it ie LFS, RFactor, NetKar etc.

 

[MasterGT]

Even if you have no obvious problems on the surface, the replaced system driver leaves the backdoor open for attacks. It makes the PC vulnerable, especially when on-line.

Cheers,

MasterGT

 

[Arkanen]

Starforce is now marked as spyware, because it can send private data back to home (E.T.?!?). I have read story about this somewhere, its intrusive and dangerous (some people have lost all they files).

MasterGT is right, at this time there is no game thats totally realistic, even LFS or Netkar (that is close, but its Formula 1 so its hard to judge as i haven't driven one yet).

 

[Tenacious D]

I have a dual layer DVD writer, and I've read of the technical issues Starforce could cause in it, rendering the thing unworkable, so no Simbin games for me.

And maybe no Live For Speed! I posted a little head scratching on the boards a bit ago.

In any case, there are a couple of consoles that may be getting the most serious racing games in console or PC history in a few months. I have a feeling that both Forza 2 and Gran Turismo 5 will have enough realism in them to make the PC crowd look in their direction for a few moments at least, and perhaps a few of them will be drawn to the "dark side" of non-PC racers.

 

[JohnBM01]

I sometimes wish there was a racing game in the mold of Gran Turismo or Forza for the PC. I say this so that gamers can have a chance to have the same fun and atmosphere these console games provide. Only game to offer the similar atmosphere is Sega GT Homologation Special. Only chance of a solid title is if (don't get your hopes up) Forza or GT makes it to PC much like the HALO series has made it to PC. That was off-topic. Now on-topic.

The criticism about driving in GT games compared to pure racing sims is something I've read up a lot on. I'm thinking GT's current model can be tweaked a bit to remain acceptable for as many audiences as possible so that a lot of people don't feel uptight about not racing machines as best as they can. But if PD pulled off a driving model which only gamers with Formula One experience can play the game successfully, then many people will complain that it's too hard. The best way to coimbine both worlds is to impress both the novice and the veteran. I am a Gran Turismo veteran as well as a racing game veteran. I've raced with several different driving models of fantasy and realistic games. I can only imagine that a model which suits both audiences with as few complaints as possible would provide the best driving experience in a GT game. I believe in kindness and generousity. A gamer doesn't have to suffer with a driving model that is too challenging to adapt and understand. Make the driving model realistic, but also don't make it so that only the "I want everything" type isn't the only ones who can enjoy a Gran Turismo game. Compromise is greatly possible, but I think it will have to be a combination of what novices prefer and what pure pros want. This is a case in which reality has a price or a limit, just not a severe one. I say to keep the accessibility active. There should also be more license tests and coffee breaks which cater to the different dynamics of the driving model. One should be able to understand a driving model and use it has best as he/she can without fail. After all, part of doing well in racing games is understanding the environment of the game and what the driving model has to offer. Only frustration reigns when either or neither element can be understood and respected among driving enthusiasts of all types.

 

[Badsight]

G.T.R is coming to the X360 . so the best ever racing SIM will finally be available on a console

now all it needs is wheel support

 

[Badsight]

StarForce doesnt hurt all people who have it on their computer , in fact the people who have had problems with it are definantly in the minority

P2P programs are a greater risk & vulnerability to your system stability than SF is

the most vocal opinions about SF are those that have their computer act up because of SF , when i say "act up" im meaning , in some cases , quite serious hardware & software malfunctions

personally i see nothing wrong with keycodes - game publishers think otherwise however . i only hope GTR-2 will be ok

 

[Wolfe]

I remember back when I bought Need for Speed: Hot Pursuit for the PC (which was a mistake in and of itself), I literally had to download a No-CD crack to get the game to work on my computer...yes, that's right, my legally purchased game. Otherwise, my computer would completely freeze up at the CD check.

I've hated copy protection software since.

 

[Tenacious D]

We'll find out how long GT5 has really been in development soon. I give credence to the rumors that much of GT5's work was begun years ago on GT4, which was downcoded for the PS2.

Kazunori-sama has had an almost Nintendo one hand, PC sim the other desire for Gran Turismo from the very beginning, wanting a challenging, realistic driving game which anyone of any age can or skill level pick up and enjoy. But Gran Turismo has been garnering a lot of hard core racers over its career who have been calling for more serious aspects to it, so maybe this time around you can set the degree of simulation the way Toca does. I do expect a lot of brain-satisfying as well as eye-popping elements to be revealled this E3. Kaz's vision for Gran Turismo was much more expansive than what was finally revealled in GT4, so I'm expecting something pretty special this time around.

 

[Dave A]

Reply to this post
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2237775&postcount=29

I can't vouch for everyone but that second quoote is with regards to learning a track, not a car's handling and that last quote sound's a bit far fetched and is from a member who joined up, made a few posts and a couple of months later, never came back. But that JC quote is being taken out of context, he did say the game was realistic, but he also said GT4 makes you feel like a racing driver, when you try in real life you find it's very different, you can approach corners in GT4 much faster and also the car doesn't give you as much feedback, but without him comapring other sim's at that time he couldn't give a view as to what;s the most realistic so your seeing someon say yeah it's great who doesn't know that there might be something bette rout there, because then he mihgt have said that's good, but that's better. Also that quote was in referrence to the Ring it'self, the recreation of the Ring in GT4 is the best was the best at that time in any game and very close to the real deal, he wasn't at that point referring to the game's physics. Sure GT4 will help you, in the sense that it will help you learn the tracks, but the car's do not drive just like real life. I can categorically state, mty 306 parked outside my house feel's remarkably unlike the 306 in GT4, I can also say all of the car's I've driven feel the same, noticably different to GT4. Sure for a game GT4 is very good, but car's I've driven in Forza feel closer to the real deal, what's really good though, is that the car's in LFS convey the feeling of truely driving a fwd, rwd, 4wd car etc, better than these sim's that use real car's that the chances are a driver has driven at least one of. The bottom line is, GT4 is as realistic as it probably can be on the PS2, having anymore calculations would have probably meant 4 car grids and that would probably mean much higher numbers of com[plaints than the above average physics it has at the moment.

 

[crimson_menace]

I've really never understood the puirpose of Arcade mode except as a matter of completion. So why not have Arcade mode be the beginner-friendly physics area, and then step into Simulation mode when you're ready for the most realistic physics they can program?

Can't agree more.

 

[Wolfe]

Reply to this post
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2237775&postcount=29

*snip*

Agreed 👍 , and I only have a few things to add:

@Quote #1: Quoting Jeremy Clarkson in order to make a point is dangerous. Anyway, as l4s said, he ultimately declared that GT4 wasn't up to snuff when compared to real life. He noticed that in GT4, you can hit the brakes and gas mid-corner as much as you want without running into any issues, something you can't do in real life. I also noticed from the video clip of the GT4 episode that he had much, much more trouble with oversteer in the real NSX than he did in the virtual one.

@Quote #2: Again, as l4s said, that quote was in reference to learning/knowing the track before driving on it. My videogame experience certainly helped me when I drove around the 'Ring myself -- PGR2 gave me a general idea of the layout of the track and helped me memorize it...GT4 taught me what the track actually looked like...and then when I bought Enthusia, it taught me what the corners were actually like and how to take them.

@Quote #3: Any half-competent racing game like GT4 can teach you how to drive fast if you're a sensible driver already.

 

[SavageEvil]

People are becoming quite redundant here, parroting the same things over and over again. Who doesn't know that in GT4 you can take corners at higher speeds that you would ever try in real life. Time and time again it's all about fear factor and no actual physical forces acting on you, I don't know about any of you but I don't care what sim game you play, there is no way drive spot on realistically, or even close to it. There are a few missing elements which games can't emulate yet, tire physics and vehicle physics are becoming excellent, but what about environment physics, you know where there is a world with it's own laws. What about wind speed and direction, surely that factors in, track surface temps, particles on the course, water on the course in motion and at standstill, air temps, we know how that goes with forced induction engines.

If you are driving in a video game and you are pulling in realistic times then something is quite off about physics in that game, GT4 is no where near realistic with lap times on any course, none of the other games you people mentioned should be either. GT4 you are fearless, there is no wind to factor in. While everyone has a great physics engine and tire physics, that alone isn't going to bring you close enough to reality, unless somehow we race in a vacuum. Quit the chatter, GT4 isn't the most realistic driving game around, sure is fun and awesone in it's own right, Forza is great fun too, each feels slightly different, some take different routes to achieve the same things. I'm sorry but I refuse to play PC games, as they are not pick up and play style, you have to invest in too many accessories for your PC and such to enjoy the game to it's fullest. I'll stick to my all inclusive console, which each generation is becoming more like a PC, yet without all the fuss. When the PS3 gen is over, then PC's will no longer be able to talk trash about consoles, as I see it consoles will become upgradeable.

 

[Gabkicks]

you can't really blame it on fear... when a skilled racer is in the zone... fear isnt going to hold them back from attacking a corner nomatter how dangerous it is. the problem is with the physics. there are many many things missing. its already been discussed a million times over like you've said before.

with gt5 there will be no excuses about lack of cpu power.

 

[Arkanen]

About Jeremy Clarkson - First he was driving on pad, second he isn't great driver at all, as guy from Lotus was teaching him how to drive. I think this guy from Fifth Gear is a lot better driver then JC, i heard he and that women were working in TG before...

 

[Dave A]

Yeah, Tiff Needel and Vick Butler Henderson both used to present TopGear, Tiff was a pro racing driver, he's raced at LeMan's, touring car's GT racing even Formula 1, so yeah, he's a better driver than JC. Vicky used to race as well, she was very good and at the age of 17 had become a racing instructor at Silverstone circuit, so I think she's probably a better driver than JC as well. It's funny though, because Tiff had a go on GT4 in 5th Gear last year, he said it's very good but it bends the rule's to give you the impression that what's happening is right. Thing's like how bumpy the Mulsanne straight is at Le Sarth, it's way too bumpy in GT4, but that may be down to the way the car's weigh is shifted and not the track model.

 

[Gabkicks]

jason plato also is in btcc i dont know if he still is.

 

[Dave A]

He's not an ex TopGear presenter though. He's a better driver than he is a presenter though :lol;, but then he's a damn good driver. Not as good as Tiff, but damn goon all the same.

 

[Scaff]

Yeah, Tiff Needel and Vick Butler Henderson both used to present TopGear, Tiff was a pro racing driver, he's raced at LeMan's, touring car's GT racing even Formula 1, so yeah, he's a better driver than JC. Vicky used to race as well, she was very good and at the age of 17 had become a racing instructor at Silverstone circuit, so I think she's probably a better driver than JC as well. It's funny though, because Tiff had a go on GT4 in 5th Gear last year, he said it's very good but it bends the rule's to give you the impression that what's happening is right. Thing's like how bumpy the Mulsanne straight is at Le Sarth, it's way too bumpy in GT4, but that may be down to the way the car's weigh is shifted and not the track model.

I would rate Plato as a racing driver far higher than VBH, in terms of both race experience and wins.

Plato history

VBH history

VBH is now more a presenter who races, while Plato is far more the racing driver who presents.


In regard to Tiff's comments on the Hunaudieres Straight I actual watch the piece again last night, as he actually commented that the bumps were very acurate, but the way the car skipped across them was to severe.

 

[Dave A]

He is, but the post I was replying to was asking if they were ex-TopGear presenter's, Plato isn't, that's why I didn't mention him.

Oh and Plato still races in the BTCC.

 

[Arkanen]

Totally offtopic: who watch BMI ? People there are realy pro drivers, and i love races there, thats where i've seen Nurburing, Tsukuba and other tracks. I think thats my favourite program (especially for japan cars lovers). PD should hire them for GT5 testing if they want it to be real.

 

[Tenacious D]

I imagine that Polyphony has a group of pretty good professional drivers already. You aren't going to get good data on the performance of a JGTC car by letting a bunch of geeky game designers drive them.

 

[amar212]

I'm pretty much sure that Best Motoring crew has more to do with Polyphony then you can even imagine .