Can There Be a Compromise for Better Driving Physics for GT5?

[TheCracker]

PS. Sorry for my bad engrish.

Your Engrish is generally great 👍

 

[Dave A]

Arkanen, don't worry about your English if it's not your first language, I could understand the whole post. And since I've not come across you before, welcome to GTP.

Regarding what you said, I agree with it, GTR and LFS are the two to beat for realistically re-produced physics at the moment.

 

[Arkanen]

Thanks both of you, yes i'm new here
Hello all!

I've said some bad but true things about GT4, but it's still great as i've played GT to the end - it was my first game on PS1 It only hurts that they haven't changed too much across all this years. I only hope this will end with GT5 - let's hope so...

PS. Can you say more about Enthusia ?

 

[Dave A]

Everythnig you need to know about Enthusia is in these threads here...
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=147
They're a sub forum in the Playstation 2 section of the site.

Great game.

 

[Niels]

I find the weight shift duration is far too short for the GT4 cars. The fact that normally you cant brake and give gas all the time, is because it upsets the weight shift balance and would just make you spin. When I look closely during a corner in GT4 I see that weight shift is visible, but it's not realistic at all.

 

[Gabkicks]

imho LFS as miles ahead physics wise. 👍
no other game comes close to the same level of complexity and detail. at least none i've ever played.

anyone who dissagrees... download the current demo. version t.

check out the suspension movement and tire deformation
http://www.kolumbus.fi/martin.bror/iso/slowmotion_bf1.avi

 

[JohnBM01]

What did Enthusia Professional Racing provide to compromise for better driving physics?

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

^ I think maybe on its Virtual Gravity System (VGS), and I played EPR. I didn't enjoyed playing the game by just using the D-pad (or dualshock for some), I have to use the DFP to fully understand the physics of the game, but thats just me. (:

 

[Arkanen]

Great movie for anyone that want to see LFS in action http://www.triple7racing.co.uk/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=71

I'll say it one more time - physics, damage, handling, network code from LFS, and real cars and tracks from GT - that would be killer of all times! I would play this many years

 

[Tenacious D]

Okay, I think I've tooted around enough in Enthusia to give an unbiased fresh opinion.

1. The graphics are pretty sad. The perspective is just weird. The sense of speed at 45mph is about the same as 25.

2. The engine sounds are pretty good, but the tires are absent. I guess I'm racing on marshmallows or something.

3. You come up on a turn doing say 40mph or so, and you want to downshift to grab the corner. Well, forget it, just slide off the track and get it overwith. Thanks to the non-existent tires, you have no clue when you're on the happy edge of grip or about to loose it. Also, the same two lame Sega Rally driver cam positions are no help at all in approaching turns.

4. The car does bounce and lean a lot. But it sure doesn't have a clue when it has traction or doesn't.

5. I could have bought $20 worth of beef hotdogs and at least been able to eat my purchase.

Final verdict? You don't want to know, and I would like this post to stay here a while. I guess I'll install Live for Speed and see what a few minutes of that is like before I have to sleep.

Edit: Well, forget Live For Speed for a while. Assigning controls is evidently some kind of April Fool's joke. Oh man...

 

[Wolfe]

I think those of you who who insist that GT4 is so bad should give some details. Don't give me that "crap physics" or "tires that are completely wrong." Come right out and say what it is in english in detail, in a way that makes sense. Like McLaren's "I can't do donuts in GT4."

Okay, but I hope you like reading...there's a lot.

I've discussed GT4's shortcomings several times before, in different threads, with different members...here are some of the bigger ones I could find with a quick search --

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=70711
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=69743&page=9
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=70051&page=2
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=74032
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=75509
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=69564
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=77667&page=2

But probably the most concise version of my problems with GT4 were stated more recently, in the "Stupid review!" thread, and went as follows:

He's right when he says the physics are very wonky, ASM or not. Pretty much anything that involves a loss of traction is just wrong. Understeer is too severe, especially because banking doesn't help you in corners. Oversteer is just weird, because the laws of momentum and inertia are all screwed up -- even in a RWD car, your front wheels will pull you out of a drift as if you were driving a FWD car. Wheelspin affects your speed but not your direction of travel. The handbrake is useless. Donuts don't work. Wheelspin, once started, takes way, way, way too long to stop. Brake dive is way too pronounced. Initiating oversteer mid-corner in a powerful RWD car is too difficult -- in fact, you can use way too much throttle and braking mid-corner and not be punished for it. Everything about the way the cars move is lifeless and artificial, and instead of being able to feel their weight, they just feel like empty, balsa-wood mock-ups. Instead of shifting around on their suspensions, cars feel more like car-shaped bricks with wheels attached...

As he says, tuning your car can help make it handle more realistically. This is very dumb.

That's a lot of stuff to type, so forgive me if I don't muck up every anti-GT4 post I make with it. 💡 If that's still not descriptive enough, you'll just have to suffer through one or a few of the threads I linked to. Other members who participated in those debates offered plenty of points, too, both pro- and anti-GT4.

Thanks both of you, yes i'm new here
Hello all!

I've said some bad but true things about GT4, but it's still great as i've played GT to the end - it was my first game on PS1 It only hurts that they haven't changed too much across all this years. I only hope this will end with GT5 - let's hope so...

Welcome to the forums, Arkanen! You made a lot of good points in your first post in this thread. With posts like that, I'm sure you'll be a valued member of the GTP community.

What did Enthusia Professional Racing provide to compromise for better driving physics?

It's hard to say...it seems that when you're using the controller, the compensation you get with the steering input does everything it can to help you, without hindering you or doing everything for you. The only drawback is that some people think it makes drifting somewhat easier than it should be.

GT4 uses compensation in the same way, for the same purpose, but GT4's compensation is very inferior to EPR's, IMO. With the DS2, GT4 is very touchy, very sensitive, and countersteer is far too effective. It could also be argued that GT4's steering compensation doesn't help you enough with understeer, but I'm not positive about that.

Okay, I think I've tooted around enough in Enthusia to give an unbiased fresh opinion.

1. The graphics are pretty sad. The perspective is just weird. The sense of speed at 45mph is about the same as 25.

2. The engine sounds are pretty good, but the tires are absent. I guess I'm racing on marshmallows or something.

3. You come up on a turn doing say 40mph or so, and you want to downshift to grab the corner. Well, forget it, just slide off the track and get it overwith. Thanks to the non-existent tires, you have no clue when you're on the happy edge of grip or about to loose it. Also, the same two lame Sega Rally driver cam positions are no help at all in approaching turns.

4. The car does bounce and lean a lot. But it sure doesn't have a clue when it has traction or doesn't.

5. I could have bought $20 worth of beef hotdogs and at least been able to eat my purchase.

Final verdict? You don't want to know, and I would like this post to stay here a while.

So you don't like Enthusia because you don't like the graphics, the sense of speed seems off to you, you can't hear the tire sounds, you don't like the camera positions, and you like hot dogs.

Valid complaints, all of them.

However, I happen to think Enthusia's graphics are nice, in some ways better than GT4's. The sense of speed is on the slow side, but tolerable -- much more so than PD's last effort, GT3. I also have no problem whatsoever hearing the tire sounds, and I can read the car's movement to predict what it's going to do, without the sounds, anyway. Also, I would like for you to explain to me how Enthusia's camera positions are any different from GT4's. Finally, I much prefer bratwursts to hot dogs.

...and in the end, you told us nothing whatsoever about your take on Enthusia's physics. All you've said is that you can't take the corners and keep on sliding off of the track because you can't hear the tires screeching.

 

[Arkanen]

Edit: Well, forget Live For Speed for a while. Assigning controls is evidently some kind of April Fool's joke. Oh man...

Assigning controls in LFS is one of the best if not the best on PC!!! No other game offer so variety of controls you can use - keyboard, mouse, all kind of analog controllers - joys, pads and wheels....

Whats better you don't have to use only one analog controller, as game uses axis of all found analog controllers and you can assign functions to them. My only complaint is i can't assign one function to more then one button (example shifts to both paddless and stick) but GT4 can't do this either. At least on PC i have logitech profiler

So can you say exactly whats your problem with assigning controls ??? I'm very interested to hear that.....

 

[amar212]

First, Tenacious D - I completely agree with you.

Enthusia has stolen it's driving physics from Sega GT games and made it DFP compatible. "Feeling of weight" is not the only factor that determines the simulation, but - weight is a great factor in GT games, especially in GT4. And - enormuos improvement of weight-shifing and axis-movement have made drastical move towards realism in GT4.

GTR has stolen it's driving and physics model from F355 Challenge game, while philosophy of gameplay and mechanics was stolen from Grand Prix games. GTR's equatation is going like this: "Driving a race car is a mission impossible if you are not hard-core and do not obey the rules we put in" -which is a big "no-no" when making a simulation - and GTR made exactly that. And BTW, both Yu Suzuki's and Crammond's masterpieces were doing the job better then GTR.

I will not say GT's physics is perfect, but it is a only game that was made by driving real cars on real tracks, and by using a real-time telemetery data while developing the wheel and throttle-braking system itself. The main information about making the GT series physics development can be accesed through pretty much rare DVD "Attack Gran Turismo", filmed during production of GT3 game and released in Japan only.

I can agree that driving a Sauber C9 in GT4 is unrealistic and it can't be lunatical as it is in game, but you just have to made some compromises if you want to keep the "performance curve" of all 700+ cars in game consistent - from 2CV to 8C.

Still, we can all expect further improvements of physics in GT5, I guess that is just very uselless to discuss.

 

[Tenacious D]

Well Wolfe, I guess I did sort of go off on Enthusia, but all my points have some substance to them. The graphics aren't all that bad, just kind of basic. But I was really looking forward to getting into this "real physics" from watching the Miata demo at the start, and being SERIOUSLY disappointed when the gameplay was nothing like that. You don't do something like that to impress someone and then take almost all of it away when it's time to drive yourself. That's just VERY bad thinking on the part of Konami.

But I'm NOT in the mood to learn some hide n seek behavior to drive a car. "Guess what I'm doing?" says the car.

"To hell with you!" says Steve (me).

Many things in Gran Turismo which puts me in the car is missing from most other games. Having authentic tire sounds is essential for pushing your car around a turn and sensing how far you can go with speed. Having a camera view which locks me to the car and gives me a good view of the track is also essential to me. I use the hood/windshield/roof cam position in GT4 exclusively because it's the perfect view for me. I can see the track wonderfully. Unfortunately with bumpercam view, the best view of the track is five feet in front of you, and behind the car, of where you've just been. With GT4, I can see turns and understand perfectly my position, my rate of approach, where I need to be and what I need to do to take a curve.

No other game I'm aware of delivers this as excellently as Gran Turismo 4, not one single game. And this is what I'm going to have to have if you want me to consider any other game. Well, except Forza 2.

When I take a corner in GT4, I can sense with precision what's going on. I don't slide off the track with no warning like I do on Enthusia. That's poor game design. You don't have the car do something drastic like leave the track entirely and give the driver no clue what's going on. Real cars don't so that except on occasion.

Enthusia's physics seem greatly exaggerated. The bob and lurch of taking a corner at 35mph, and not all that tight a corner, seems like it's going 55. Accelerate and your nose is in the air. Let off the gas, and the nose dips almost like you hit the brakes. Taking a corner is a complete guessing game. And what is completely infuriating to me are the absentee tires, which start screeching about a full SECOND after you loose traction. "Oh! Did I forget to let you know you were in trouble? Silly me." Tires start complaining while they still have grip. That's even more poor game design, and the worst kind.

So, I'm glad you enjoy Enthusia, but like I say, the enthusiasm isn't shared. It was a huge let down to me, after such an impressive buildup from the demo drive. Thanks for giving me none of that, Konami. 👎

As for Live For Speed's controller assignment, something is bad wrong somewhere. I use the DF Pro in USB, and getting the gas and brake assigned was going nowhere. For some reason, they're both on gas, and the gas pedal works from 50% down, and brake from 50% up! The heck?? I'll fuss with it tonight and see if I can get anything going the way it should. It's DFP or nothing.

And Amar, I agree with you too. I'm all for lifting stuff that works from other games, but make sure it works well enough to drive properly. Giving me a 220kph+ racecar and taking away a bunch of the essentials to driving it right doesn't endear me to the game at all. At this rate, I may never buy another game outside of Gran Turismo and Forza.

 

[Arkanen]

Was it separete throttle/brake axes ?
Also look at Windows control panel -> game controllers -> properties of DFP -> settings -> UNCHECK pedals reported as combined
If you want to race online just write here or msg me.

I agree with Tenacious D and amar212 that GT4 have very good driving physics, but also very bad physics of crash or non existing damage model. Can't wait for GT5 to see whats changed....

 

[SavageEvil]

What an interesting read, lots of nice points, and a lot of bad ones, usually about GT4, go figure?

Well I haven't gotten my hands on Enthusia as yet, I don't know man the urge to buy this game of my own free will is soo non existant.

My experience has been with GT series, Forza, Toca2 and Sega GT. Oh boy Toca2 is a very nice game, it's physics are built for race cars, hence why the normal vehicles handle soo well when you race them, get real. But I do like their open wheel car physics(champ cars), those felt great. Sega GT was too hard to play with a controller, cars felt floaty, and unrealistic power distribution in some cars. Forza, well it's a very well put together game, some questionable physics at times, and mediocre tire sounds and tuning that is hit or miss. GT4, not the greatest games, good physics although they are kind of stupid on occassion, tuning is kind of shallow.

I like Toca2 for what it was worth at the time, just another game to beat, but it wasn't really enjoyable until the champ cars. Sega GT, enjoyed it because it was a step up from GT2 at the time. Forza, I got this because finally there was a game on the Xbox to rival PS2 GT series. It's a very solid game, that capitalizes on GT's shortcomings, some in a great way and others it's a little mum. It's enjoyable now and again, but the excellent tire physics are marred by the fact that almost every car is prone to oversteer, and weight shift is merely a numerical thing as it's practially unnoticeable visually, even in stock vehicles, at least there's body roll, sort of.

Thing about GT4 which I like is PD's attention to detail, from weight shift being visible noticeable(albeit a little overdone on some cars, could be the 1st person view that does that to you), tire sounds(those who said you can't tell what the cars behavior in GT4, have never driven a real car obviously), wind sounds. This game has soo much more balance than all the other games mentioned, hence why it's quite popular.

Now on to people talking about GT4's crash physics, are you retarded? There are no crash physics in GT4 really, just bump and go stuff when on all tires except standards, on standards you get some pretty unadulerated physics, you have to be quite the connisseur to drive at a good clip and remain in total control. I find that on standards that, you are never really in total control, I get that feeling when I drive too fast in real life. GT4 has no impact physics, because seriously how do you program crash physics when no one in the world has an indestructible car? Remember GT4's data was taken from real life input, so the game was programmed with a slight margin for the unexplainable, which in real life happens. Hey there are some really odd things like the ridiculous snap oversteer GT4 has, sometimes you can work it out, but in highpowered cars, all hope is lost. Another thing that many may not notice in GT4 is the fact that increased downforce doesn't affect your top speed in GT4 to any level that I've witnessed, wonky programming? GT4's biggest down fall is tire physics, they just aren't up to the task and add that to the fact that the tarmac is at a constant temp, why does it even have tire degradation. It's funny tires heat up ther pressure goes up and the tires become grippy, but the road surface is a constant temp, not sure if it's that way in all section, but that kind of screws up having total realism when it comes to different grip levels at different points on a course such as the Nürburgring.

Hopefully GT5 will remedy this and bring even more to the GT universe, while still catering to casuals and semi-hardcore alike. Push comes to shove, I'll play GT over most other car games, because it isn't delegated to one particular form of driving. Over time it will excel in all areas and with the power of these new machines(PS3) the gap between console sim and PC sim will become quite close. I for one am looking frward to PD next offering.

 

[MustangSVT]

Okay, I think I've tooted around enough in Enthusia to give an unbiased fresh opinion.

1. The graphics are pretty sad. The perspective is just weird. The sense of speed at 45mph is about the same as 25.

2. The engine sounds are pretty good, but the tires are absent. I guess I'm racing on marshmallows or something.

3. You come up on a turn doing say 40mph or so, and you want to downshift to grab the corner. Well, forget it, just slide off the track and get it overwith. Thanks to the non-existent tires, you have no clue when you're on the happy edge of grip or about to loose it. Also, the same two lame Sega Rally driver cam positions are no help at all in approaching turns.

4. The car does bounce and lean a lot. But it sure doesn't have a clue when it has traction or doesn't.

5. I could have bought $20 worth of beef hotdogs and at least been able to eat my purchase.

Final verdict? You don't want to know, and I would like this post to stay here a while. I guess I'll install Live for Speed and see what a few minutes of that is like before I have to sleep.

Edit: Well, forget Live For Speed for a while. Assigning controls is evidently some kind of April Fool's joke. Oh man...

I couldn't agree more (about the Enthusia part). The car doesn't have a clue when it has traction or not, just decides randomly.. And yes the tires do appear to be absent lol.

GTR has stolen it's driving and physics model from F355 Challenge game, while philosophy of gameplay and mechanics was stolen from Grand Prix games. GTR's equatation is going like this: "Driving a race car is a mission impossible if you are not hard-core and do not obey the rules we put in" -which is a big "no-no" when making a simulation - and GTR made exactly that. And BTW, both Yu Suzuki's and Crammond's masterpieces were doing the job better then GTR.

This is quite wrong. The driving and physics model of GTR comes from F1 Challenge '99-'02 originally and was probably tweaked and tweaked. It's based on the physics engine made by the ISI team for their last F1 game which is F1 Challenge, just like how GT Legends is based on the physics system made by ISI for rFactor.

 

[Tenacious D]

Just to keep a toe in the thread topic in this post, I don't see how Gran Turismo 5 (and Gran Turismo Vision, looking more likely as a release title) won't have an even more refined physics engine, as well as a proper A.I. system. Considering what Polyphony did with an almost obsolete PS2, thanks to the stingy 4megs of video ram, GT4 was an incredible achievement. I know people complain loudly that the game won't let them do everything they want it to do like drift or do donuts, but Polyphony evidently worked the physics code to focus on driving and racing. Go outside of that, like trying to drift, and you'll probably bump your head against the physics limitations.

Just look at Forza, those of you familiar with it. The XBox is 3 or 4 times as powerful and comes with a hard drive. Along with that is a proper NVidia GeForce graphics chipset with a good amount of ram. Still, with all that extra processing muscle, the game isn't honestly any better than GT4. It does some things better, some things worse. The most noticeable thing to me are the violent smacktard bots, and the environment reflections on the cars running at 6-8 frames per second! Plus, you only get two more competitors.

Both Forza 2 on the 360 and Gran Turismo 5 on the PS3 should give fans of both games a taste of racing bliss. I know that recreating a precision real life experience is as much an art as well as science, so I expect both games to be different and have the flavor of their predecessors. However, after taking Mustang's Forza/GT4 challenge, I've learned that they tend to give us a rather similar driving experience, so I expect these two sequels to have some nice similarities. One of them is that the games will put us in those cars even better than before. I just hope that Team Forza gives me some good camera positions.

I'm growing more curious than ever about Toca 3. Maybe this is what I'd like to get to make up for that horrible Enthusia experience. I seriously believe that the "game footage" of the Miata in the Enthusia demo is actually racing video which is bit reduced to look like it's in-game. It really had me looking forward to giving those cars a run, and I was sadly disappointed at what Konami gave me instead. Meh.

As for those Live For Speed helps that Arkanen and Gabkicks sent me, I appreciate it. My screen is set up exactly like yours, Arkanen, but I'm lost as to what the problem is. I think I'll delete my LFS folder and reinstall it, along with the Wingman drivers Gabs provided a helpful link to. The glimpse I got of LFS was... interesting. It seemed like a hobby project since it wasn't all that polished, but I am amazed how well it's coming along, considering it's being created by THREE PEOPLE?! Man. I bet those guys get hired or create a game company themselves.

 

[Wolfe]

Well Wolfe, I guess I did sort of go off on Enthusia, but all my points have some substance to them.

I never said they didn't. In fact, I find it kind of amusing that your comments about and distaste for Enthusia sound like me when I'm casually complaining about GT4.

However, you haven't said anything about the physics themselves. How the cars behave -- not how well you can interact with them.

...I use the hood/windshield/roof cam position in GT4 exclusively because it's the perfect view for me. I can see the track wonderfully....No other game I'm aware of delivers this as excellently as Gran Turismo 4, not one single game. And this is what I'm going to have to have if you want me to consider any other game. Well, except Forza 2.

You aren't going to find very many games that offer a similar view. If you're okay with only being satisfied with GT4, and not having anything else to play, that's fine, but otherwise you might want to try getting used to a bumpercam view.

Oh, and just so you know, Live for Speed, with its incredible tweakability, allows you to custom-make your very own camera view, as well as the field of view (in other words, the sense of speed). So you can have your roof view if the dashboard view isn't to your liking.

When I take a corner in GT4, I can sense with precision what's going on. I don't slide off the track with no warning like I do on Enthusia. That's poor game design. You don't have the car do something drastic like leave the track entirely and give the driver no clue what's going on. Real cars don't so that except on occasion.

You're right, having a car slide off of the track with no warning is poor game design. That's why I'm glad Enthusia tells me what it's doing, unlike GT4, which is always cold and uncommunicative, and seems to randomly throw inescapable understeer at me at the worst possible moments.

Enthusia's physics seem greatly exaggerated. The bob and lurch of taking a corner at 35mph, and not all that tight a corner, seems like it's going 55. Accelerate and your nose is in the air. Let off the gas, and the nose dips almost like you hit the brakes. Taking a corner is a complete guessing game.

That's funny -- I've always thought the exact same thing about GT4, about the acceleration squat and brake dive. It's horribly, hilariously exaggerated in GT4. I can't say the same for Enthusia.

Also, about the bodyroll thing -- Enthusia's cars don't lean less than they should, that's for certain, but I don't think the leaning is extreme, or even significantly exaggerated...especially for any of the cars that are more than 10 years old.

In GT4, the cars squiggle unrealistically like JELL-O over bumps, but for the most part remain flat, dry, motionless, and uncommunicative in corners. It's hard to tell what's going on.

And what is completely infuriating to me are the absentee tires, which start screeching about a full SECOND after you loose traction. "Oh! Did I forget to let you know you were in trouble? Silly me." Tires start complaining while they still have grip. That's even more poor game design, and the worst kind.

Maybe my copy is different from yours, but my experience doesn't match yours. If a tire doesn't have traction, it's squealing. Then again, maybe that's because I play with the music volume set to half...You might just not be hearing it.

Considering what Polyphony did with an almost obsolete PS2, thanks to the stingy 4megs of video ram, GT4 was an incredible achievement. I know people complain loudly that the game won't let them do everything they want it to do like drift or do donuts, but Polyphony evidently worked the physics code to focus on driving and racing. Go outside of that, like trying to drift, and you'll probably bump your head against the physics limitations.

If a game doesn't drift right, then any hard driving that brushes against the limits of traction will not be correct....and that's the kind of driving that you should be doing in a racing game, anyway.

You might as well say that some flight sim is "realistic enough" because, even though you can't stall or go into a spin, flying long distances in a straight line works just fine.

If you believe GT4 doesn't drift or do donuts right (and I would agree with you there), that isn't an indication that PD focused on racing/driving -- that is an indication that the physics are seriously flawed.

I'm growing more curious than ever about Toca 3. Maybe this is what I'd like to get to make up for that horrible Enthusia experience. I seriously believe that the "game footage" of the Miata in the Enthusia demo is actually racing video which is bit reduced to look like it's in-game. It really had me looking forward to giving those cars a run, and I was sadly disappointed at what Konami gave me instead. Meh.

You still haven't explained how Enthusia is unrealistic. You've just said that you can't hear the tire squeal, body roll seems exaggerated, and you only like roof cams.

Anyway, I think you should stay away from Toca 3, unless you like floaty, vague driving "sims." The pro-sim mode that everyone raves about is just the standard set of floaty Codemasters physics (the same they've been giving us in TRD and Colin McRae games for years), but with extra wheelspin and brake lock. WHOO!!!

As for those Live For Speed helps that Arkanen and Gabkicks sent me, I appreciate it. My screen is set up exactly like yours, Arkanen, but I'm lost as to what the problem is. I think I'll delete my LFS folder and reinstall it, along with the Wingman drivers Gabs provided a helpful link to. The glimpse I got of LFS was... interesting. It seemed like a hobby project since it wasn't all that polished, but I am amazed how well it's coming along, considering it's being created by THREE PEOPLE?! Man. I bet those guys get hired or create a game company themselves.

When you install those drivers, go into the Game Controllers control panel, open the DFP's options, and then make sure that "separate throttle/brake axis" is turned on (and make sure it's turned on in LFS, too). Also, look on the right-hand side of the LFS controller configuration screen, and fiddle with the DFP's pedals and wheel individually -- those bars will tell you which axis you're fiddling with. 👍

 

[Tenacious D]

Wolfe, I specifically told you why it didn't seem like I was in a car. It figures you're a drifter, they always gripe loudly about GT4. Anyway...

It doesn't communicate to me at all. Especially the tires, the most important aspect of taking a turn. I raced with music off.

The cars jiggle like Jell-O, and over react to acceleration and decelleration.

The cars over react to turns, unless you're crawling around turns at 20mph.

In fact, just to see what would happen - and because I was getting fed up with the game - I rammed a wall doing well over 100mph, and... the car just kind of thudded to a stop without much fuss. Kind of like throwing a block into sand. Verrrry impressive physics there.

Anyway, enjoy Enthusia. I'm not going to wee all over your picnic like some posters do and invade the Enthusia board and rant about what a piece of poo it is.

Well, there is another thing.

For a game that you seem to think does so many things wrong, it seems to give me the closest recreation of taking my Supra down the road of any game I've ever played. Many people who do race have praised GT4 for getting many things right that so many games leave out, and they say similar things about Forza - I still have a few issues with Forza, but one by one I'm ironing the wrinkles out.

Anyway, I think it's fascinating that dumb old Polyphony manages to put so many tangible aspects of driving and racing a car into the game that these other brilliant race game developers can't seem to get a handle on. Why that is, I don't know, but it does make me wonder how brilliant they really are. I have little doubt that one of these days, someone will remark about Gran Turismo's "arcady 3D perspective."

 

[Arkanen]

For me it's simple not any simulation when you drive with cam on hood, bumper or above car. Cocpit view is more real and i hope it'll be included in next gran turismo. But maybe i'm getting this whole thing wrong, that its not driver simulation instead its car simulator hmm.....

 

[SavageEvil]

For me it's simple not any simulation when you drive with cam on hood, bumper or above car. Cocpit view is more real and i hope it'll be included in next gran turismo. But maybe i'm getting this whole thing wrong, that its not driver simulation instead its car simulator hmm.....

There's a cockpit cam in the teaser video, complete with working rearview mirrors, you can see the wipers resting on the windshield as well and some interior of the car, but it's not final so who knows how much of the human eye perspective will be built into GT5's interface.

Hmmm, if the human eye perspective is created well enough, driving will become even harder, as driver placement in cars will vary, especially when in LMP's, Group C's, opposite handedness for those accustomed to one, visibilty levels, peripheral view awareness. Making it harder still will be if it's simulated to include the handicap that wearing a race helmet places on the drivers peripheral vision. Only time will tell what they decide to do, and that's not even including more realistic vehicle physics, tires physics, environment dynamics. I have high hopes for GT5, just because PD really are a bunch of guys who are sticklers for details, it's those little things that add to the entire finished product that has me admiring their efforts.

 

[Tenacious D]

For you guys who like cockpit cam, and there are a bunch of you, I do hope there's a good cockpit view for you. I also hope that you can make a lot of adjustments, like you can in GTR to get the behind-the-wheel view you want.

For the rest of us though, many of us have a lot of trouble if we're forced to use a camera position we're unfamiliar with. I'm hopeful that Gran Turismo 5 gives us a good range of camera options, and you can't beat having a driver cam you can set up however you please. Live For Speed evidently does that as Wolfe points out, and I can't applaud them enough for such forward thinking.

And as Savage Evil says, Polyphony does do a great job of getting the player involved in the drive. Having a system as powerful as the PS3, I'm counting on GT5 to be a dream to play. Maybe not all that easy depending on the modes available, but it shouldn't leave you guessing about too much.

 

[Wolfe]

Wolfe, I specifically told you why it didn't seem like I was in a car. It figures you're a drifter, they always gripe loudly about GT4. Anyway...

That's odd, most people just complain about my "GT4 doesn't drift right" comments by bringing up the large GT4 drifting community that exists.

Anyway, yes, I enjoy drifting, but that doesn't change the fact that a game that doesn't drift right won't be getting any at-the-limit driving physics right.

It doesn't communicate to me at all. Especially the tires, the most important aspect of taking a turn. I raced with music off.

The cars jiggle like Jell-O, and over react to acceleration and decelleration.

The cars over react to turns, unless you're crawling around turns at 20mph.

Yes, but none of those things describe the physics of the game, which is what I've been asking for. Things like understeer, oversteer, and grip, and how cars react to and transition between those three states of cornering. How wheelspin affects the car's movement, and whether weight transfer seems to affect anything -- regardless of whether it looks exaggerated.

I respect your opinion when you say that Enthusia doesn't "feel" right to you. That's a subjective matter, one that I disagree with, but one that I can't and won't argue against. However, that doesn't mean that Enthusia is unrealistic -- Richard Burns Rally is critically acclaimed as possibly the most realistic rally sim ever made, but I can't stand playing it because the sense of speed was dreadfully slow (on the PC version, anyway). As a result, I never took the time to really examine its physics, so I don't go around saying it's unrealistic, or a bad sim -- I just warn people that its sense of speed is off.

You've been telling me why you don't like playing Enthusia, but you haven't told me why you don't think it's realistic.

In fact, just to see what would happen - and because I was getting fed up with the game - I rammed a wall doing well over 100mph, and... the car just kind of thudded to a stop without much fuss. Kind of like throwing a block into sand. Verrrry impressive physics there.

Oh, and GT4 doesn't do this? Although, in GT4, if you turned and drove away from the wall after crashing into it, your drive wheels would just keep on spinning for what seems like an eternity, and that wheelspin would not affect your direction of travel. Ooh, how realistic...that's why the Shelby Cobra was known to be such a cuddly, friendly car to drive -- because you wouldn't have to worry about wheelspin spinning you out.

Anyway, enjoy Enthusia. I'm not going to wee all over your picnic like some posters do and invade the Enthusia board and rant about what a piece of poo it is.

Go ahead, if you want to -- it's not like I exercise the same restraint with the Gran Turismo forums.

Well, there is another thing.

For a game that you seem to think does so many things wrong, it seems to give me the closest recreation of taking my Supra down the road of any game I've ever played. Many people who do race have praised GT4 for getting many things right that so many games leave out, and they say similar things about Forza - I still have a few issues with Forza, but one by one I'm ironing the wrinkles out.

Anyway, I think it's fascinating that dumb old Polyphony manages to put so many tangible aspects of driving and racing a car into the game that these other brilliant race game developers can't seem to get a handle on. Why that is, I don't know, but it does make me wonder how brilliant they really are. I have little doubt that one of these days, someone will remark about Gran Turismo's "arcady 3D perspective."

...and all the while, I shake my head in utter bewilderment that the GT series continues to receive such lofty praise.

It's nice that GT4 gives you the feeling you're looking for, but I simply cannot understand what you see in that game. Or anybody else, for that matter. To me, all it's good for is oogling at the pretty graphics while watching B-Spec Bob drive around, or driving the many cars and tracks that are only featured in GT4, and unavailable in any other game...and then promptly remembering why I don't like GT4.

If you want, I could make a video showcasing GT4's flaws...or would you not even care?

 

[Gabkicks]

that is very strange for you to say the sense of speed in RBR is bad for the pc. 100mph in RBR feels like 200mph in gt4 to me.

 

[Wolfe]

Maybe my computer just couldn't run it right -- I haven't tried the game again since I upgraded.

 

[Arkanen]

If you want, I could make a video showcasing GT4's flaws...or would you not even care?

I would love to see that, it would be great STFU for all fanboys. Image says more then thousand words, video says even more....
That reminds me one mmorpg game that i've played - Priston Tale, it had so called robe bug, but many haven't believed in, because it mainly affected overpowered casters. Then someone made video and it was great for proving it to stupid people.

that is very strange for you to say the sense of speed in RBR is bad for the pc. 100mph in RBR feels like 200mph in gt4 to me.

I would say thats because of tracks, narrow ones give better sense of speed, then wide ones. Nurburing in GT4 gives a lot better sense of speed and its very narrow track. Whats sense of speed after all ? Its how fast we pass objects, how cars react and sound, wind.... For example if we drive at 150 km/h for a longer time, our mind are getting used to it, then we slow down to 80 km/h and it feels like crawling...

 

[Gabkicks]

yeah deffinatly. when gt5 comes out they shouldh have more objects on the side of the track to enhance the sense of speed. amalfi feels pretty decent at high speeds

 

[Tenacious D]

Yeah, go ahead and make a video. I really doubt that I'm going to see anything conclusive, except "Look. You can't do donuts. You can't drift well. You can't spin out much. You can't drop a clutch." The clutch I can't help, it's an issue with many racing games, but as for the rest of those, they don't have anything to do with racing, or even driving. But what should I expect from a guy who says the GT cars jiggle like Jello, when in Enthusia, ANY change in turn or speed makes the car shake, jerk and roll around like it's on springs. Note to Wolfe: this is a description of the behavior of a car in motion, and represents the physical behavior of the vehicle. I.E. the PHYSICS. I think you're being evasive on purpose.

Also, I did indeed ram cars in Gran Turismo at high speeds into other cars and walls, and the collisions were MUCH more dramatic than those in Enthusia. Jeepers...

I guess I'll see if I can lay out something here and see if it makes any sense.

In any game, you have a code budget. On a console, you have a much more limited budget than you do on a PC. This means you have to leave some things out of the code library, and your game won't be able to do everything you might want it to. I don't think anyone is saying that "Game X on the PS2 or XBox is perfect." The issue is, does it do the job right, or are you just being anal over trivialities.

There's another thing. PC games like the NASCAR, Rally and Formula 1 games are tailored to do one SPECIFIC type of racing. These games don't do much outside of their explicit parameters. Does anyone complain because you can't drift in GTR? Does anyone grouch over the fact that you have a very narrow performance oriented game with a very narrow range of cars to play with? Now I have, but not because it's a fault of the game. I just don't like games which force you into the bleeding edge of racing, and not give you all the essentials to feel the car to the extent I need. It doesn't help a bit that Simbin uses that atrocious Starforce copy protection virus.

But wait, there's more. Do you know why there's no such thing as the perfect jet fighter or perfect race car?

1. Designing a high performance aircraft or car is as much an art as it is a science.

2. Everything you design into a plane or car is a compromise. To get something, you have to give up something. If you want a fighter to turn on a dime, it can't go Mach 3. If you want it to be multirole, you have to strengthen the fuselage to carry bombs and stuff, so it'll be heavier and won't dogfight quite as well as an air superiority fighter.

This is just as true with a racing videogame, especially on a console when the clock will be running as much as 1/10th that of a PC, and the ram 1/30th.

However, games like Gran Turismo 4 Toca 3 and Enthusia show (I'm tossing an olive bone here), you can do most of what you want with the obsolete PS2 to deliver much of what a PC game running on a 3ghz rig will do. I still insist that Kazunori-sama did what needed to be done to make Gran Turismo 4 a superb driving experience which has nothing comparable on the PC, and not entirely so on the XBox. If drifting, doing donuts, drag racing and tuning with metaphysical certitude are what you have to have in order to consider a game worthwhile, then play those games and be happy. Did you guys do anything like this?

MustangSVT issued a challenge to many of us, and I decided to give it a try. I took the same cars in Forza and GT4 and took them around the same track (Mercedes McLaren SLR at Laguna Seca), and that impressed me more than anything how marvelously two different games delivered an excellent driving experience. They each have their own flavor, but they're very similar. I drove very similar lines and had almost the exact same times, within 0.3 seconds. I love those two games because they offer an excellently rendered driving experience. Gran Turismo does it a little better, but that's mostly due to the driving camera choices available. When their sequels come out, I have little doubt that they will both leave the racing community speechless for a while. I also expect that the PC sim crowd will diss them both, but what else is new.

I don't know why people insist on invading turf that they otherwise wouldn't have anything to do with to try and straighten us unenlightened folk out. You should be glad I don't go to the Enthusia section because I still feel jipped. The game is absolutely NOTHING like Konami's opening Miata demo. But if you guys like GTR, Enthusia, Live For Speed, Forza or whatever, why do you get your underwear in a bunch because the world doesn't wet itself over your theological racing splendor? Just enjoy it and gush about it on your boards, and don't feel insulted if it only has the same crowd posting every day. Gee whiz.

 

[Wolfe]

Yeah, go ahead and make a video. I really doubt that I'm going to see anything conclusive, except "Look. You can't do donuts. You can't drift well. You can't spin out much. You can't drop a clutch." The clutch I can't help, it's an issue with many racing games, but as for the rest of those, they don't have anything to do with racing, or even driving.

Not being able to do donuts, not being able to drift well, and not having enough trouble with spinning are all indicators of an over-simplified and/or inaccurate physics engine. If the tire and inertia physics don't allow donuts or drifting, then how accurate could high-speed cornering be? If the handbrake is completely ineffective, then how accurate could locking your brakes be? If spinning out takes more effort than it should, then isn't the game much easier than it should be?

If you never encounter understeer or oversteer while driving in GT4, you simply aren't driving nearly as fast as you should be in a racing game, and I find it hard to believe that you could progress anywhere in the game by driving in such a way. If you do encounter understeer or oversteer, crossing the threshold into the "unimportant" realm of driving physics as you seem to think (since they have nothing to do with driving fast), wouldn't you rather have your car react to it in a realistic way, than have your car do something silly and ruin the experience?

Beyond-the-limits-of-traction physics are just as important as well-within-the-limits-of-traction physics if you want a game to be realistic. Otherwise, you might as well tack Ridge Racer's drifting onto Gran Turismo's grip driving and call it a day. I assume, however, that you wouldn't be too happy with that.

But what should I expect from a guy who says the GT cars jiggle like Jello, when in Enthusia, ANY change in turn or speed makes the car shake, jerk and roll around like it's on springs. Note to Wolfe: this is a description of the behavior of a car in motion, and represents the physical behavior of the vehicle. I.E. the PHYSICS. I think you're being evasive on purpose.

When I say the cars in GT jiggle like JELL-O, I mean like rapid, strange-looking motions, some of them side-to-side (broken suspension?).

When you say the cars in Enthusia shake, jerk, and roll around like they're on springs, you make yourself look silly, because that's what they should do -- in case you didn't know, cars have springs. 💡

When I say physics, I mean the behavior and motion of a car in different cornering situations, and how it reacts to changes in brake, steering, or throttle input.

When you say physics, apparently, you mean how much the screen tilts when a car turns...?

Also, I did indeed ram cars in Gran Turismo at high speeds into other cars and walls, and the collisions were MUCH more dramatic than those in Enthusia. Jeepers...

How so? When I ram into a wall head-on in GT4, I thud to a stop and my drive wheels start spinning like crazy. When I ram into a wall at an angle in GT4, I sorta thud into it, sometimes bouncing off slightly, and my drive wheels start spinning like crazy.

Enthusia is pretty much the same, but without the wheelspin.

If you've found a dramatic difference, I'd like to hear it.

I guess I'll see if I can lay out something here and see if it makes any sense.

In any game, you have a code budget. On a console, you have a much more limited budget than you do on a PC. This means you have to leave some things out of the code library, and your game won't be able to do everything you might want it to. I don't think anyone is saying that "Game X on the PS2 or XBox is perfect." The issue is, does it do the job right, or are you just being anal over trivialities.

I understand the difference between programming for a console and programming for a PC. I also understand how this code must be "budgeted." That's why I think that Polyphony Digital "spent" their code irresponsibly, either programming things inefficiently or "spending" too much code on other parts of the game, such as B-Spec or Photomode. Why else would you find a just-as-competent -- if not moreso -- driving sim like TRD3, on the same console, with similarly pretty graphics and many more cars in a race at a time? Why else would Tourist Trophy be so disappointing as far as bikes-per-race goes, when the graphics of its rivals don't look that much worse? I sincerely hope the graphics/physics engine that underpins GT4 and TT was designed with the PS3 in mind...otherwise it's just wasteful, inefficient programming.

No one is saying that any driving sim is perfect -- I'm not -- and if they are, they're wrong.

What can be said is that "Game X is the best sim on the PS2/PC/XBOX" or "Game X is as close to perfection as it gets on the PS2/PC/XBOX." And I have indeed said those things about Enthusia and Live for Speed, and I stand behind those statements.

You may disagree, but I find that Enthusia balanced realism, the limitations of the PS2, and playability with the Dual Shock superbly. That's why it gets my vote as the best PS2 sim.

If these "anal trivialities" include car behavior in beyond-the-limits-of-traction driving, I don't understand how they could possibly be anal, or trivialities.

There's another thing. PC games like the NASCAR, Rally and Formula 1 games are tailored to do one SPECIFIC type of racing. These games don't do much outside of their explicit parameters. Does anyone complain because you can't drift in GTR? Does anyone grouch over the fact that you have a very narrow performance oriented game with a very narrow range of cars to play with? Now I have, but not because it's a fault of the game. I just don't like games which force you into the bleeding edge of racing, and not give you all the essentials to feel the car to the extent I need. It doesn't help a bit that Simbin uses that atrocious Starforce copy protection virus.

Any game that wants to be a realistic NASCAR, rally, or Formula 1 sim should behave just like the real thing when the limits of traction are broken (especially rally, because that's almost all of the time). If it doesn't, it isn't as realistic as it could be. There are no "parameters" to car behavior in racing, only different weights, tires, suspension designs, aerodynamic components, etc. that all follow the same laws of physics. That's why Live for Speed is so great -- with everything based on simple physical laws, it can fairly-accurately simulate an economy hatchback, lightweight FR roadster, Porsche-911-wannabe, and Formula 1 car from a single physics engine.

By the way -- you can't drift in GTR because the cars aren't built for it. The steering lock is too narrow to facilitate countersteer, and the racing slicks make losing traction unpredictable. If it were possible to equip "lower-grip" track or street tires and widen the steering lock (I believe you can do the steering lock part), and the game didn't allow you to drift, then its physics engine is flawed. End of story.

But wait, there's more. Do you know why there's no such thing as the perfect jet fighter or perfect race car?

1. Designing a high performance aircraft or car is as much an art as it is a science.

2. Everything you design into a plane or car is a compromise. To get something, you have to give up something. If you want a fighter to turn on a dime, it can't go Mach 3. If you want it to be multirole, you have to strengthen the fuselage to carry bombs and stuff, so it'll be heavier and won't dogfight quite as well as an air superiority fighter.

This is just as true with a racing videogame, especially on a console when the clock will be running as much as 1/10th that of a PC, and the ram 1/30th.

Uh huh. You're preaching to the choir, here.

However, games like Gran Turismo 4 Toca 3 and Enthusia show (I'm tossing an olive bone here), you can do most of what you want with the obsolete PS2 to deliver much of what a PC game running on a 3ghz rig will do. I still insist that Kazunori-sama did what needed to be done to make Gran Turismo 4 a superb driving experience which has nothing comparable on the PC, and not entirely so on the XBox. If drifting, doing donuts, drag racing and tuning with metaphysical certitude are what you have to have in order to consider a game worthwhile, then play those games and be happy. Did you guys do anything like this?

You better believe that I have to have drifting and donuts in order to consider a game to be realistic (my standards for "worthwhile" are much lower, pretty much limited to whether or not it's any fun). I already explained the reasons for this above.

As for drag racing and tuning, it's easy to make drag racing realistic, and a game could be completely devoid of tuning and still provide a solid driving experience (I would know, I never really tune any of my cars ). I don't know where you got the idea that I would enjoy those things, though...unless you're assuming that I don't like "ordinary" racing around a circuit just because I don't like GT4 and enjoy drifting...?

MustangSVT issued a challenge to many of us, and I decided to give it a try. I took the same cars in Forza and GT4 and took them around the same track (Mercedes McLaren SLR at Laguna Seca), and that impressed me more than anything how marvelously two different games delivered an excellent driving experience. They each have their own flavor, but they're very similar. I drove very similar lines and had almost the exact same times, within 0.3 seconds. I love those two games because they offer an excellently rendered driving experience. Gran Turismo does it a little better, but that's mostly due to the driving camera choices available. When their sequels come out, I have little doubt that they will both leave the racing community speechless for a while. I also expect that the PC sim crowd will diss them both, but what else is new.

You're like my evil twin from a parallel universe. I feel that both Forza and GT4 are very disappointing driving sims, and are hardly any fun to play because of their flaws. Forza is more fun to play, but less realistic, and because I don't have an XBOX, I'm stuck with EPR, GT4, and LFS.

I don't know why people insist on invading turf that they otherwise wouldn't have anything to do with to try and straighten us unenlightened folk out. You should be glad I don't go to the Enthusia section because I still feel jipped. The game is absolutely NOTHING like Konami's opening Miata demo. But if you guys like GTR, Enthusia, Live For Speed, Forza or whatever, why do you get your underwear in a bunch because the world doesn't wet itself over your theological racing splendor? Just enjoy it and gush about it on your boards, and don't feel insulted if it only has the same crowd posting every day. Gee whiz.

Oh, so as a longtime fan of the Gran Turismo series, specifically GT2 and GT3, I'm not allowed to share my disappointment with GT4 and express my hope for a more-realistic GT5?

Then, since Enthusia sold so dismally and those of us who are fans want a sequel, we aren't allowed to spread the word about it and try to get people to try it, after it was burned by game reviewers who don't know how to drive?

Why don't you follow your own advice -- if you like GT4, why do you get your underwear in a bunch because some people don't wet themselves over your theological racing splendor? Just enjoy it and gush about it on GTP, and don't feel insulted if other people disagree. Gee whiz.