Cappuccino Cup Racing (RM) - SEASON 1 COMPLETE!

[CobraCommandrew]

My vote would be to stay with one track per week. The thing with varying it is that if your participation also varies week to week, you might run the whole series and never get to race on a particular track.

For example, if my schedule only allowed me to race on Night 1 in Week 1, Night 2 in Week 2, and Night 3 in Week 3, I would have been stuck racing on the same track for all 3 rounds.

I suppose some might consider this to be a benefit if they have a strong preference for a particular track, but for me, I'd rather get to experience more tracks.

The other nice thing about doing one track per week is that it allows everyone to focus on perfecting their lap on that track. I know I improved immensely on Deep Forrest between my initial run on Tuesday and the final run on Saturday. Breaking it up so that you only run each track once per week is going to mean less refined driving on each track, at least for me.

For the points thing, I'm not sure I really have a preference between the two suggested approaches. I guess I'd like to try the best finish per week approach as it could give some of the slower guys (i.e. me) a chance to move up if there is a freak occurrence, but probably wouldn't have a major impact on how the faster guys end up ranking in the end. It might add a bit more excitement to what will otherwise be a pretty predictable overall result.

 

[st1sj]

RDA, those are some nice pics! I think if we had kept the draft going, we could have given iforce/brosif a good run the next lap too.

Running these cars on la Sarthe is really fun. That was my first time on the 2005 version and I like it the best.

Watermelon, thanks! I think orange wheels would work nice too.

 

[BrandonW77]

Cobra, very good points. I kinda prefer running the same track each week too for the reasons you mentioned, I also get progressively better through the week and enjoy seeing my progress. It also makes tuning easier since you're not having to setup for a new track all the time.

I also prefer the combined points system where your best finish goes towards your points instead of the average of your finishes. I think it benefits the group as a whole better because they won't be penalized/gain any advantage by running too few/too many races. It's also easier for me to keep track of.

I've got a few other ideas in the works too but nothing too complicated or drastic, just some things to make the week a little more exciting and enjoyable (not that we're lacking those qualities now!) and make things a little more organized.

If you guys have any interesting ideas or concepts for the series feel free to run them by me. I'm going to continue with the theme of "simplicity" and will shy away from ideas that make the races more complicated or lengthy but I'm open to listen to any ideas. I like our qualifying format and will probably stick with it for the second season, but will continue to tweak it this season if needed. The race length seems pretty good too.

For the end of this season, I'm thinking of changing the track for round 5 to Indy Road Course and having the Race of Champions at la Sarthe/no chicances. With the large draft at both of those tracks it should make for interesting finale's where everybody has an equal chance to win! For the Race of Champions, I wanted to have one race with the top 4 or 5 finishers from every night to decide the overall Cappuccino Cup Champion but I realize that with our vastly differing schedules it would be near impossible to get everybody together for one race. So, what I'm thinking of doing instead is having three races on the normally scheduled nights but I will take everyone's elapsed time and combine them into one result, so we wouldn't know who the Champion was until after all 3 races have been run. This might mean that each driver could only participate once that week so they can't better their time, but I could take each driver's best time for the week too if everybody's ok with that. Or maybe take an average of their times.

Anyway, if anybody has any thoughts, ideas or opinions, feel free to let me know!

Also, I'd like to do a few free races at Indy Road Course this evening if anybody's available. I don't think we've done any actual racing there yet, or not much anyway. Should be a good track for a finale though. 👍


B

 

[Johnnypenso]

In response to your earlier suggestions Brandon:

I'd rather have the same track all week. These cars are hard enough to figure out to begin with and it's a different setup at each track to be on pace, for me anyway, and I think having more than one track per week would unnecessarily complicate things.

You mentioned a second serving of the Cappuccino Cup. My preference would be for a different, but still lower powered car, next time. We could pick any readily available street car and do a PP or HP/weight limit or another race car, like the Lupo, the March, the Beetle...etc. Adding a second car to the series doesn't appeal to me, as I like the idea of everyone being in the exact same car and having the exact same chance to tune and win. I think if you introduce another car, one or the other will be better, and that car will win most if not all the time, and discourage others who mistakenly chose the wrong car and partway through the series, realize they have no chance to win.

As for multiple races in one week again, my concern is, towards the end of the week, you could easily have more than 16 drivers wanting to enter a particular race, or on any raceday actually, and then what do you do? As it is now, the registered drivers would get preference. Making one give up their previous finish would have people taking a second look at whether they want to run later in the week and add a gambling/risk element to the whole deal. I think averaging the finishes will only encourage people to run later in the week and overcrowd the rooms, which were almost full already this weekend.

When it comes to qualifying, another suggestion could be to simply open the room up earlier and have a free for all, but for a longer period. If one wants to get there earlier, and beat the traffic so to speak they can. Open it at 7 or 7:30 for an 8:15 or 8:30 start. If you're late to the party you don't have as much time to qualify.

Looks like it was good racing on the weekend. Not sure how many of you have practiced on GVE but you're going to find it a real challenge. Simple track, but you've got to carry speed through the final sweeper/hairpin and the second corner to be competitive here and that's not so easy!! Get out there and practice kids!!

I didn't lose any cars in the update, at least not that I've noticed, but on the dozen or so cars I checked, my settings have changed. Some of them I had recorded, but I did some practice at GVE after last weeks race, with Tri, got down to some decent lap times after lots of tweeking...and those settings are gone and not written down!!!!

D&^m you GT5!...lol.

 

[Markeeez18]

Im interested in this

#(Don't mind) Markeeez18 (Markeeez18): Blue / Black

 

[BrandonW77]

Making one give up their previous finish would have people taking a second look at whether they want to run later in the week and add a gambling/risk element to the whole deal. I think averaging the finishes will only encourage people to run later in the week and overcrowd the rooms, which were almost full already this weekend.

Drivers won't have to give up their previous finish if they participate in a second race that week, I would just take their best finish for the week. So if one races a second time in the week and gets a worse finish than their first race, then their first race result would go towards their points for the week.

I actually thought that averaging the finishes would have the opposite effect and discourage some people to run later in the week because if they got a worse finish then their average for the week would drop. So if they had a good finish they might not want to gamble on a second race and risk lowering their average. That would be one way of controlling the room population and letting more drivers have a chance to race, because drivers who did well in the first part of the week might choose not to take part later in the week so more spots would be available. At least on paper, in reality it might not work out that way.

Since the Cappuccino is the core of the league I don't think it will be going anywhere soon. I'd rather keep it and not let any other cars in than replace it with a different car. It has proved to be a very thrilling little car to drive and really "feels" like a race car which produces some great racing and diversity amongst the drivers. Plus, I've grown quite attached to my little Cappy and look forward to lots more races in it!

I also like your idea for qualifying, but I'm concerned about how the game would keep track of our times. I might need to do a bit of testing on this if I can get a group together that's willing to suffer through some tests. Although, I think our qualifying method adds a little flavor to the event because it's fun being able to watch the timing monitor and such while the other group qualifies. It adds an element of the "live qualifying" format that other league's use without adding a ton of extra time to the event.


It seems like, so far, we're on the same page here. I also prefer having just the Capp and racing at the same track throughout the week, but I wanted to toss some ideas out there to get a feeling for what everybody else is thinking. Being my first time running a league, this season has been an ongoing learning experience for me. I have learned a lot so far and hope to use that knowledge as a foundation to make Season 2 even more fun and exciting, but keeping the simplicity that we've developed this season. There won't be any drastic changes to the structure of Season 2, just lots of small things to spice up the experience a bit. Kind of like the most recent GT5 update. 👍


B

 

[fatrab]

I think everything about the current structure is great.

The track schedule, the scoring system, the car. Someone also complained about the qualifying system at the moment, but I also like watching people qualify.

If anything, the qualifying process could be improved a little. I would either make it so that each driver completes X number of laps and then pulls off, or have ALL drivers stop when the timer goes off. I personally prefer the X number of laps if fairer and more efficient.

Example... If the average lap time at, say, Tsukuba is 1.05, then allow all drivers 5 laps (5:25 total time) and then get them off. Drivers can clearly see the number of laps they've done, and if they are trying to sneak another lap then the marshal can order them off.

This would prevent people from trying to sneak in an extra lap which can be frustrating for others who have to wait around (and this also gives the 1st person onto the track an advantage).

 

[BrandonW77]

If anything, the qualifying process could be improved a little. I would either make it so that each driver completes X number of laps and then pulls off, or have ALL drivers stop when the timer goes off. I personally prefer the X number of laps if fairer and more efficient.

Example... If the average lap time at, say, Tsukuba is 1.05, then allow all drivers 5 laps (5:25 total time) and then get them off. Drivers can clearly see the number of laps they've done, and if they are trying to sneak another lap then the marshal can order them off.

This would prevent people from trying to sneak in an extra lap which can be frustrating for others who have to wait around (and this also gives the 1st person onto the track an advantage).

This is essentially what I try to do now. The time period is determined based on each driver getting approx 5 laps for qualifying, I start the timer when everybody is out of the pits and on track. The point of letting the drivers finish their lap after the timer goes off is to balance out the difference between when the first driver gets on track and when the last driver gets on track, so the first driver on track doesn't get an advantage. I want everybody to have a fair shake.

The first drivers on track already have half a lap in the bag when the timer starts, but should be completing a lap when the timer goes off. The last drivers on track are already half a lap down on time when they enter the track but they get to complete their lap after the time expires, so it all kind of balances out to every driver getting the same number of laps. So far there hasn't been an issue with drivers staying out after time expires to get 1 extra lap, except that one time, so I think it works out pretty well.

I've tried to develop a system that doesn't rely too heavily on drivers following a list of specific instructions because it's sometimes hard to communicate those instructions since not everybody uses a mic/earpiece and it can be difficult to type out long lists of instructions in a timely fashion. That's why I went with a time-based system for qualifying instead of a lap count system because I can easily relay the time status and all that the drivers have to worry about is driving fast and staying clear of other drivers. I don't want them to have to worry about monitoring their lap counter when their trying to focus on attacking the track, and then rely on them to stop after their 5 laps. Also, if it's lap-based instead of time-based that means somebody could hang out in the pits until everyone else is mostly done with their laps just so they could have a clear track for their own qualifying laps. This isn't fair to other drivers and would also prolong qualifying, I try to keep things timely.


Please don't feel like I'm shooting down your suggestions, that is not the case at all. I tried to go into enough detail to show how I arrived at the current system and that I've put quite a bit of thought into it. Not to say the current system is flawless, because I'm not sure if that's possible, but I think I've found a happy medium that addresses most of the major problems. It's accurate, simple, efficient (most of the time), and easy to monitor.

But PLEASE keep your ideas coming because the more feedback I get from the group the better I can make this series. I may not use every idea thrown my way, but I do consider all of them and I may use different parts of different ideas in various ways. Reading your ideas also gives me a clearer picture of what everyone wants/likes/dislikes with the series and I can use that information to shape things accordingly. Overall I'm very happy with how things are going and I hope everyone else is too! I've had very FEW complaints so far and the ones I have received have been pretty minor. I take that as sign that everyone's pretty happy with how things are going, so I won't stray very far from the current format at all. 👍


B

 

[fatrab]

I haven't run all the races so far, but I have noticed that the times I have and watched the timing thing that a few drivers always seem to have 1 extra lap than other drivers. And if for example the 1st driver gets their nose past the line just before time is up, then based on the current rule they are allowed to finish their lap.

If someone is pottering around in the pits, then they should not be allowed to get finish their quota of 5 laps due to delaying the race.

Another argument for lap-based is that everyone has a clear expectation of how many "tries" they have to post a good lap time, where as with the time-based it is always in the back of your mind "i wonder when the timer will go off..." especially when the race time shows the total time including practice and previous qualifying sessions unless each driver takes note of the exact time the timer starts.

Anyway that is just my 2c. At the end of the day it won't make a big difference one way or another.

 

[Blind829]

Another argument for lap-based is that everyone has a clear expectation of how many "tries" they have to post a good lap time, where as with the time-based it is always in the back of your mind "i wonder when the timer will go off..." especially when the race time shows the total time including practice and previous qualifying sessions unless each driver takes note of the exact time the timer starts.

From the races I've been in, Brandon does a good job saying "2 minutes to go", "1 minute to go", etc. so it's been pretty clear how long we have. What I am confused about is when the timer is up people keep racing, are we supposed to stop or are we allowed to finish the lap we're on?

My fear with going by a certain number of laps is people that spin out more than usual (myself) or ones that pause the game while qualifying, may still think they get there certain number of laps then, in result, it extends the amount of time it takes to quality.

 

[fatrab]

Another suggestion..

Completely new tracks for subsequent seasons. I know a lot of thought went in for this season, but a couple of reasons:

1/ Variety is good
2/ For less advanced drivers it gives us a good opportunity to get a good number of practice laps in to learn the courses with a clear aim in mind.
3/ Unless the track is completely bad for racing in these cars (eg Eiger Nordwand Short maybe?) I think that track selection is not so important to the level of fun everyone has so long as it is competitive.

 

[fatrab]

My fear with going by a certain number of laps is people that spin out more than usual (myself) or ones that pause the game while qualifying, may still think they get there certain number of laps then, in result, it extends the amount of time it takes to quality.

True. Okay how about this.... A mix of both worlds.

1/ A set number of laps. Once you are done with your X number of laps, get off the track
2/ For the slow pokes. Set a max time limit.. Maybe 30-45 more seconds more than the theoretical total time to get X laps in.

But having said that, even if you do spin out, it is unlikely you will be blowing out the qualifying session by more than a minute for your X number of laps anyway... If your qualifying is blowing out by more than that, then you should probably be at the back of the grid in any case.

Anyway, the qualifying at the moment works pretty well. In my opinion it could be slightly more efficient (eg. it took ~30-40 minutes on Friday) but by no means is it a show stopper.

 

[BrandonW77]

From the races I've been in, Brandon does a good job saying "2 minutes to go", "1 minute to go", etc. so it's been pretty clear how long we have. What I am confused about is when the timer is up people keep racing, are we supposed to stop or are we allowed to finish the lap we're on?

My fear with going by a certain number of laps is people that spin out more than usual (myself) or ones that pause the game while qualifying, may still think they get there certain number of laps then, in result, it extends the amount of time it takes to quality.

You made my points for me Blind. I know the timer in the upper right of the screen isn't in sync with the qualifying period so I try to give out warning at various intervals and I try to speak them as well as type them so that everybody gets the heads up. As for what happens after the timer, I also try to make it clear that if you're on a hot lap when the timer goes off you are allowed to finish it. But, I usually just say this and don't type it and I realize the people without headsets can't always hear the instructions so I will try to type it out from now on.

Your second point also explains my concern about going with a lap-based system. Yes, I could impose some kind of punishment on a driver who abuses the lap-based system, but I don't think anything positive would come of that because it would become a judgment call by me as to whether a punishment is necessary and could lead to arguments or hurt feelings. Plus, I don't really have any way of forcing a driver to leave the track or to impose any kind of punishment. One of my main goals is to get things wrapped up in a timely manner and I believe a lap-based system could endanger that. After Friday's race we already had a few complaints about things taking too long so I wouldn't want to do anything that would take longer than what we do now.

FatRabbit, again, please don't take any of this as me trashing on your ideas. I think they are good ideas but could be a little difficult to implement/police. Our hands are kind of tied with some of the limitations of GT5 so we have to work within those limitations. I also have to keep people's real-world schedules in mind and remember that not everyone has an infinite time for online racing, so I have to make things time-effecient. Your alternate points of view are very valuable though, they're giving me the feedback I need to make sure we're doing things the best that we can. But like you said, in the end it won't make too much of a difference because, afterall, we are just racing Cappuccino's! lol I hate sounding so negative though and I don't want you to think that I don't want/won't listen to your feedback, because I assure you that's not the case. 👍


B

 

[BrandonW77]

Anyway, the qualifying at the moment works pretty well. In my opinion it could be slightly more efficient (eg. it took ~30-40 minutes on Friday) but by no means is it a show stopper.

Yes, everything took a little longer than desired on Friday, due to various reasons. At Saturday's race things were much more efficient, we started qualifying at 2:05 and were done by 2:25, race started at 2:30 and was done before 3. I've built the schedule so that everything should take no longer than an hour and that worked out perfectly on Saturday.

Ideally qualifying should take about 20 minutes, 5 minute break if necessary, and the race should take ~25 minutes. So about 1 hour total.


B

 

[fatrab]

Definitely don't think you are trashing my ideas at all

At the end of the day, we both want the same thing (faster qualifying) so if you think you can put measures in using the current system then all good. If you find it is still not working, then you could always trial my suggestion as a one-off if you feel the need to.

EDIT - just read the post above. 20 minutes is perfect.

 

[BrandonW77]

Definitely don't think you are trashing my ideas at all

At the end of the day, we both want the same thing (faster qualifying) so if you think you can put measures in using the current system then all good. If you find it is still not working, then you could always trial my suggestion as a one-off if you feel the need to.

EDIT - just read the post above. 20 minutes is perfect.

👍 Thanks mate. I was part of a league where the director would ask the group for ideas and then either completely disregard them or do the exact opposite of what the group wanted and I promised myself I would never do that. It completely ruined the experience for me and I don't want that to happen here, so I just wanted to be sure you (and the rest of the group) wasn't taking things that way. I won't just say "no, we aren't doing that", I try to explain why we will or won't do something so everybody can see the thought process that goes into each decision. I try to take all things into account and go with whatever works best, whether it fits my preference or not.

 

[fatrab]

All good. I don't think anyone here would think that and I think it is clear that you have the series' best interest in mind

PS - What's up with calling me "mate", mate? I thought us Aussies/Kiwis/Poms only say that.

 

[BrandonW77]

PS - What's up with calling me "mate", mate? I thought us Aussies/Kiwis/Poms only say that.

It's my lame attempt to try to blend in with (what I think is) a neat culture. I'm a fan of Aussies/Kiwis/Poms and secretly want to be one.

Really though, I just think it's awesome that GT5/GTP brings people together from all over the globe to share in what we all love as well as learn about each other and our different cultures. When I tell my friends "I was racing with a buddy in New Zealand last night....." the reaction on their faces is pretty cool.

So what do you call an Aussie/Kiwi that's been transplanted to Canada, eh? And do they still allow you to say "mate" up there or have you been forced to switch to "hoser"? lol

B

 

[fatrab]

Haha, I'm not really down with Canadian slang to be honest.

Although I did get funny looks at work when I was talking about hiking in thongs (ie. flip flops) the other day. But otherwise, they generally understand what I am trying to say

 

[IforceV8]

Haha, I'm not really down with Canadian slang to be honest.

Although I did get funny looks at work when I was talking about hiking in thongs (ie. flip flops) the other day. But otherwise, they generally understand what I am trying to say

You went hiking in a thong??? I think i will stick to the city to avoid that visual.

 

[BrandonW77]

You went hiking in a thong??? I think i will stick to the city to avoid that visual.

I still do a double-take whenever I hear somebody use "thong" in that context. Just like when I hear a Brit say they're going out to the alley to have a fag. lol

 

[Mudd]

IforceV8
"You went hiking in a thong??? I think i will stick to the city to avoid that visual."

StigsHero
"I still do a double-take whenever I hear somebody use "thong" in that context. Just like when I hear a Brit say they're going out to the alley to have a fag. lol"

To an 'Aussie-Brit' this could REALLY get confusing.

 

[BrandonW77]

IforceV8
"You went hiking in a thong??? I think i will stick to the city to avoid that visual."

StigsHero
"I still do a double-take whenever I hear somebody use "thong" in that context. Just like when I hear a Brit say they're going out to the alley to have a fag. lol"

To an 'Aussie-Brit' this could REALLY get confusing.

Imagine how we Americans feel? Especially when you consider the meaning we attribute to those 2 words! lol! Now if you start talking about hiking in a thong while enjoying a fag..........I might have to politely ask you to leave the league.

 

[Johnnypenso]

So what do you call an Aussie/Kiwi that's been transplanted to Canada, eh? And do they still allow you to say "mate" up there or have you been forced to switch to "hoser"? lol

B

Hoser?...lol...I haven't heard that for 20 years at least...lol. We call Aussies up here "Aussies"...lol. It is true however that we do say "eh" a lot...lol...

 

[BrandonW77]

Hoser?...lol...I haven't heard that for 20 years at least...lol. We call Aussies up here "Aussies"...lol. It is true however that we do say "eh" a lot...lol...

Most of my Canadian knowledge comes from Bob and Doug McKenzie. And South Park.

 

[IforceV8]

I have a public room open @ GVE-R testing if anybody is online.

Capp cup testing
Skid-off
free run section

 

[Müle]

I've lived in Canada for 18 years, and have never heard anyone say "hoser."

I haven't heard anyone say "aboot" either.

 

[fatrab]

I haven't heard anyone say "aboot" either.

ROFL.

EVERYONE says ABOOT! And HOOSE (house), and OOT (out).

When I first started working, I almost cracked up laughing in meetings. Sorry!

 

[BrosifDuder]

I've lived in Canada for 18 years, and have never heard anyone say "hoser."

I haven't heard anyone say "aboot" either.

Well I have lived in Michigan for 27 years and have heard plenty of Canadian visitors and Yoopers say "aboot","eh", and "oot".

 

[BrandonW77]

I've lived in Canada for 18 years, and have never heard anyone say "hoser."

I haven't heard anyone say "aboot" either.

I hear "aboot" (or similar) quite often when I'm in a room that has Canadian drivers. I actually heard a guy say it a couple times on a podcast today too. It's not as blatant as that, just a subtle accent that probably only someone from another region would notice.

Indiana tends to be "accent neutral" (except for the occasional Southern Drawl) so I usually notice subtle differences in accent and annunciation because I'm not normally exposed to them.

EDIT: I really didn't intend for this to be Pick on Canada Day. Lol