Car Safety Belt Laws

  • Thread starter Danoff
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danoff
Oh, and there isn't money in car sales?

A bit off topic but GM makes more money operating as a bank than it does as a car company.

What I meant when I said that was there are more lobbyists trying to keep cigarettes legal than there are lobbyists trying to eliminate seatbelt safety laws.

Anyway so you're all for making smoking illegal... at least you're consistent.

Me? Smoking? Illegal? Yes (in some places). Like inside a movie theatre, in a hospital, school, restaurant... that sort of thing.
 
MrktMkr1986
Me? Smoking? Illegal? Yes (in some places). Like inside a movie theatre, in a hospital, school, restaurant... that sort of thing.
Why movie theaters and restaurants? Those are private businesses.

OK, off topic.
 
FoolKiller
Why movie theaters and restaurants? Those are private businesses.

OK, off topic.

Smoke- free indoor air ordinances protect employees and customers from secondhand smoke inhalation, which is associated with increased risks for heart disease and lung cancer in adults and respiratory disease in children.

California, Connecticut, Delaware, Maine, and New York (<<< :dopey: ), have all banned smoking in restaurants. Most theaters do not allow smoking anyway.
 
MrktMkr1986
California, Connecticut, Delaware, Maine, and New York (<<< :dopey: ), have all banned smoking in restaurants. Most theaters do not allow smoking anyway.
And they have banned them in Louisville and Lexington, KY too. I guess that just makes it hunky dorey then.

Why does the government have the right to tell a private business owner what legal activities he/she are allowed to permit? Movie thaters, I can see the fire hazard issue because it is dark, but not in a restaurant. If secondhand smoke is such an issue why not just make tobacco smoking illegal? Why are we banning privately owned businesses from allowing a LEGAL practice? Customers and employees don't have to be there. Employees suing over smoking ticks me off. I guess they didn't see the ashtrays and smokers when they applied and interviewed for the job? The most I will agree to is making restaurant owners post a sign that they allow smoking.

Next you will have airport security employees complaining because they might be in close proximity to a bomb and they didn't realize they might put their life at risk with their jobs....oh wait. They did. :dunce:

Then back on topic, why do we tell drivers whether they can or can't where a seatbelt when we are just putting their life at risk? How much of my tax dollars was wasted in legislation over this? And as mentioned before, why is the new trend to allow motorcycle riders to not wear a helmet? Is the protection not for the same possible event?
 
FoolKiller
And they have banned them in Louisville and Lexington, KY too. I guess that just makes it hunky dorey then.

It's in the interest of saving lives... who is harmed by banning cigarettes in a restaurant?

If secondhand smoke is such an issue why not just make tobacco smoking illegal?

Because Altria (among other tobacco mfg's) has lobbyists whose sole purpose is to pay Congressmen to keep cigarettes legal.

Why are we banning privately owned businesses from allowing a LEGAL practice?

For the same reason we ban privately owned businesses from dumping toxic waste into the Hudson River, right General Electric?

The most I will agree to is making restaurant owners post a sign that they allow smoking.

How would anyone be able to see the sign through the thick cloud of smoke? :lol:

Next you will have airport security employees complaining because they might be in close proximity to a bomb and they didn't realize they might put their life at risk with their jobs....oh wait. They did. :dunce:

Nearly 1/2 million people die every year from cigarettes. You don't hear about 1/2 million airport security employees dying every year from explosives. These are two entirely different issues.

Then back on topic, why do we tell drivers whether they can or can't where a seatbelt when we are just putting their life at risk?

How are we putting their life at risk by telling people to wear seatbelts? :confused:

How much of my tax dollars was wasted in legislation over this?

None. That's what lobbyists, PACs, and interest groups are for.

And as mentioned before, why is the new trend to allow motorcycle riders to not wear a helmet? Is the protection not for the same possible event?

There are enough lobbyists trying to eliminate helmet laws. Mainly insurance companies. Some states say:

"If you can prove that you have x amount of dollars worth of insurance, you can ride without a helmet"

US Helmet Laws
In Florida, those 21 yrs. and older may ride without helmets only if they can show proof that they are covered by a medical insurance policy. Louisiana's law allows riders 18 yrs. and older to ride without helmets if they can show proof that they are covered by a medical insurance policy. Texas exempts riders 21 yrs. or older if they either 1) can show proof of successfully completing a motorcycle operator training and safety course or 2) can show proof of having a medical insurance policy.
 
MrktMkr1986
It's in the interest of saving lives... who is harmed by banning cigarettes in a restaurant?

Smokers.

For the same reason we ban privately owned businesses from dumping toxic waste into the Hudson River, right General Electric?

I see, so polluting public land is the same thing as polluting private air?

Nearly 1/2 million people die every year from cigarettes. You don't hear about 1/2 million airport security employees dying every year from explosives. These are two entirely different issues.

Principles Brian... concepts... philosophies...

How are we putting their life at risk by telling people to wear seatbelts? :confused:

I can see how you misunderstood what he wrote, but it's not what he intended.


None. That's what lobbyists, PACs, and interest groups are for.

You don't think the seatbelt law costs money???!!!???? Here in california we have a whole "Click it or ticket" campaign complete with television commericals, road signs, and GASP enforcement.
 
I see, so polluting public land is the same thing as polluting private air?

:odd: That you would make the distinction between public land (and subsequently public air) and private air is interesting. We all breathe the same air -- hence, it cannot be privatized. Toxic emissions coming from a factory travels thanks to the wind -- and when it does, it's no longer a private issue. It's a public health hazard.

I can see how you misunderstood what he wrote, but it's not what he intended.

Then what was it?

You don't think the seatbelt law costs money???!!!???? Here in california we have a whole "Click it or ticket" campaign complete with television commericals, road signs, and GASP enforcement.

Who paid for the commercials and advertisements? Even if enforcing seat belt safety laws could be quantified it would wouldn't amount to much anyway.
 
MrktMkr1986
:odd: That you would make the distinction between public land (and subsequently public air) and private air is interesting. We all breathe the same air -- hence, it cannot be privatized.

The air enclosed by my house is mine. I can mess it up if I want to. The air outside of my house, that drifts over onto other people's property and that other people will breathe is not mine to mess up if I want to. I should be able to pollute my own land as long as it doesn't get off of my land - same with the air in my house (or if I could manage somehow to mess up only the air in my back yard but prevent it magically from spreading over to other people).
 
In Aus, we don't allow ciggerette advertising on telly or on billboards etc (notice the Marlboro signage gone from the Ferraris at Albert Park?). Smoking is banned in most public indoor areas (movie theaters, restaurants etc) where the possibility of secondhand smoke causing problems (smell also!) is amplified. Outdoors its seen as alright. Whilst personally I'd be quite happy to see a total elimination of smoking, I can see that at the moment it sits at about the right level of concern on the "slippery slope" of rights vs public health. Me being judgemental and just deciding to eliminate smokers and the enjoyment (and knowledge of self harm) of smoking the habit gives them, IS attacking their right to smoke (as long as it doesn't affect anyone else). So the right I'd be stopping is their right to smoke, which WOULD change their (immediate) enjoyment of life and make them pissed. They would slowly get used to it and not care after a while - hence the SLOW turning of the wheel to gradually stop folks smoking. It will happen eventually I think (or you just won't see it in public...).

With seatbelts, there is no real amazing lifestyle 'plus' or spectacularly immediate enjoyment in not wearing a seatbelt (other than you can). You're still sitting there, you're still just driving a car. Protecting kids who don't have the choice whether they die or not is also a big plus here. So basically there is no important "right" (besides principle - no real lifestyle hit) that's being impinged with having a seatbelt law. Unless one is physically incapable of putting on a seatbelt and gets a fine subsequently!! Personally, I don't think the concept of fining people is ideal, but it seems to be the only way to get them to buckle up consistently. What I am in favour of is fining them for not suitably restraining a child or baby. The kid's right to live is FAR more important than the parent's right (according to danoff etc) to kill them.

Its quite funny how people fear the subsequent 'fine' for not buckling up more than their own life being lost. They need to get some perspective... Most people are only concerned with their immediate enjoyment (smoking) or immediate fears (fines etc - remember, they think they're invincible on the roads, despite the stated road tolls being a constant in the equation). They need help to see the long-term danger or potential risks they take at their own and other's expense (seatbelts/smoking laws). This is why I see the government's role as making society safer (whilst trying not to make everyone miserable!!) as extremely valid. Everyone knows that the old fashioned "everyone for himself" mentality doesn't make a very good place to live in. Ok now I'm gonna say something silly - you fear the ghost of communism so much that you're illogically unwilling to care about others in a humane way. I know this is pushing it, but hey its an interesting concept for why American society is so right wing and selfish currently (yes I know Kerry was crap and this statement is valid for Australia too!).

The reason smoking isn't banned but seatbelts are enforced is possibly added 'theatrical drama' of a sudden death compared to one's health slowly degrading over a prolonged period. Society can't see as easily the direct implication of smoking a ciggarette and its effects. Mind you, I think smoking is a surer way to kill yourself than not wearing a seatbelt! It'll potentially take far longer... but it WILL work eventually. I think smoking should be bumped up a bit on the scale of concern.

Another reason why seatbelt wearing is enforced is that you have to be a certain age to buy a packet of smokes, so very young children have a right to be protected from smoking. The same for car accidents. A very young child should have a right to have their seatbelt on at all times when in a car. I believe that every person should have equal oppurtunity to prosper and have a good life. I know this concept is strange to danoff but I believe that the safety of a child shouldn't be left solely up to the mother (who may be totally drug-crazed and off the planet). Hence child protection services exist. Basically Danoff's views are consistent (and so are mine, but are harder to explain concisely - as soon as you admit you care about your fellow citizens it gets complicated very quickly - how much do you impinge and/or help in every situation? This balance is hard to work out, but I believe its immoral to avoid these questions. Every man for himself is far simpler, but doesn't work at all), but in the long run Danoff and Famine are happier with an uglier and meaner world. I'm not calling them mean or nasty but the logical endpoints for their philosophies would be.
 
MrktMkr1986
Then back on topic, why do we tell drivers whether they can or can't where a seatbelt when we are just putting their life at risk?
How are we putting their life at risk by telling people to wear seatbelts? :confused:
Son of a biscuit eater, that was bad! Let this be a lesson, trying to debate on only four hours of sleep while having a rough day at work leads to weariness and temporary stupidity. I try to reread my posts and even go back to edit out errors. That should have read:

"Then back on topic, why do we tell drivers whether they can or can't wear a seatbelt when they are just putting their own life at risk?"
Wow, mispelled words and bad grammar all at once? I try to keep it to just one per sentence. :dunce:

I'll go sit in the corner now.
 
So friendly around here, way to be professional about a serious topic that is taking lives every day. Good job pointing out pointless mistakes that do not matter in real life and aren't apart of this topic.

Back on topic: I like to wear my seatbelt; saying goes around here: "Click it or ticket." Tickets cost money out of my pocket. Seatbelts in most instances help you survive. I'll take wearing a seatbelt over the other possibilities.
 
And mine. The fact there's a fine for it played no part in my decision-making process.
 
FoolKiller
Son of a biscuit eater, that was bad! Let this be a lesson, trying to debate on only four hours of sleep while having a rough day at work leads to weariness and temporary stupidity. I try to reread my posts and even go back to edit out errors.

Wow, mispelled words and bad grammar all at once? I try to keep it to just one per sentence. :dunce:

I'll go sit in the corner now.


Don't worry about it... happens to me all the time! :dopey:

That should have read:

"Then back on topic, why do we tell drivers whether they can or can't wear a seatbelt when they are just putting their own life at risk?"

For the same reason we told car manufacturers to make seatbelts standard equipment in all cars -- safety. Why go through all the trouble of making manufacturers make seatbelts standard and then give people the choice to use them or not? If that's the case, seatbelts should be optional equipment! Same thing with airbags, ABS, tempered safety glass, and then we're back down the other end of the slippery slope -- falling faster than Newt Gingrich on a greasy flagpole.

Why do corporations force their turbochargers to be equipped with wastegates? :sly:
 
MrktMkr1986
If that's the case, seatbelts should be optional equipment! Same thing with airbags, ABS, tempered safety glass

Quite right too.
 
MrktMkr1986
Why do corporations force their turbochargers to be equipped with wastegates? :sly:

Yeah and those same corporations force rev limiters on me, I want my engine to scream to death.
 
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