Not agree, thats a different matter. If I_I-UfuK-l_l, I_I-AmiR-l_l... have these times because of their driving skills with the steering wheel, fine. But if they are cheating (and that is what we're here arguing, about their strange shifting), not. And when I say "cheating", it means using bugs, tricks of the game... unfair things, like the well-kown superspeedy Subaru transmission configuration, for example. That's the point.
Clutch cheaters
- Thread starter MeAgainstYou
- 197 comments
- 31,014 views
- Status
Not agree, thats a different matter. If I_I-UfuK-l_l, I_I-AmiR-l_l... have these times because of their driving skills with the steering wheel, fine. But if they are cheating (and that is what we're here arguing, about their strange shifting), not. And when I say "cheating", it means using bugs, tricks of the game... unfair things, like the well-kown superspeedy Subaru transmission configuration, for example. That's the point.
So you agree that using a devise for better times (presumably) is not cheating?(like a better wheel) 👍
A "legal" device, of course.
But if you are using irregular mods (hardware or software) that violate the normal use of the game, not. And, when I say irregular mods, I don't mean improve the gearshift sensation or changing the wheel of the G25 for a real one, I mean something that jumps or brakes the rules of the program game
Do you know what I mean?
Timppaq
Premium
- 5,137
- Helsinki
- GTP_Timppaq
I know what you mean. But until we know what really is happening / how it's done we can't really call them cheaters. imo.
for the record, I'd REALLY like PD to include a tag in the leaderboard when a clutch is used, and maybe even specific leaderboards for clutch / no clutch. Of course I'd like to get us all to the same line 👍 Had enough fights with those clutch guys
for the record, I'd REALLY like PD to include a tag in the leaderboard when a clutch is used, and maybe even specific leaderboards for clutch / no clutch. Of course I'd like to get us all to the same line 👍 Had enough fights with those clutch guys
- 785
- meagainstyou GTP_MeAgainstYou PureGT_MAY
if changing the software or adding something to an hardware or waf it is.. is not cheating.. then ill play counter strike with a patch that i found to see through the walls and kill everybody..i dont care if they dont even seen me... i spent 1000€ on a research and 1000hours installing it.. i think i have the right to use this.. i pay for it in money and hours of my life 
- 818
A "legal" device, of course.
But if you are using irregular mods (hardware or software) that violate the normal use of the game, not. And, when I say irregular mods, I don't mean improve the gearshift sensation or changing the wheel of the G25 for a real one, I mean something that jumps or brakes the rules of the program game
If its a flaw in how the game processes signals from the G25, allowing for it to be modded unrealistically to improve lap times, then PD should fix the game. Punishing everyone who owns a G25 because of these guys would suck big time.
- 133
- D-CORP_Renzo
- who needs an xbox.....
👍 couldnt have said it better myself..... It just shows how competitive gran turismo has become. All those "cheaters" have done is showed us how flat shifting should be done in gran turismo. This could even help PD develop the clutch and allow for perfect flat shifting..so those guys that have been labled cheaters maybe the solution to a proper clutch system...
- 2,344
- Bristol UK
- GTP_Chris
i dont know but maybe May, myself and couple of other members haven't cleared out the fact properly enough!
What they are doing is not !flatshifting!. You can tell because sometimes the red clutch bar shows up for a bit of a sec and sometimes it doesnt.
You could call flatshifting if you see quickly a N during gear change, and if they are then on full throttle, THEN you could call it flat shifting.
Also MAY has spoken to those 2 drivers, and one of them let him know that they are using a different kind of device, so that could mean a different wheel (fanatec perhaps) or a mod for a G25 / DFGT etc...
We will have to wait and see.
Chris 👍
- 2,576
- Australia
- J-PaP
I haven't seen the video so I don't know exactly what is going on/how it is done. However after a poster earlier on made mention of a way to modify the g25 to allow for faster gear shifts and reduce on the most part errors during shifting.
It is really simple. First off you can disconnect the clutch pedal wiring and instead wire a button up to it instead. However you also add a solenoid (this is a conditional switch. I can explain it further if needed) where when you push the button (thus activating the clutch), it will disconnect the gas pedal instantly. When you release the button, assuming you kept your foot on the gas, you will have full throttle again instantly. If you mount this button on top of the shifter, it would be easy to just press/depress it while changing gears. You could also put a second button next to it that copies the clutch on/off button so that you can turn the clutch off during down shifts and back on during upshifts. If the earlier poster said the same thing, my apologies. But I struggled to understand the diagram. Looked more complex than it needed to be.
There should also be a way to change how the h shifter works. But i haven't seen one pulled apart so can't comment.
It is really simple. First off you can disconnect the clutch pedal wiring and instead wire a button up to it instead. However you also add a solenoid (this is a conditional switch. I can explain it further if needed) where when you push the button (thus activating the clutch), it will disconnect the gas pedal instantly. When you release the button, assuming you kept your foot on the gas, you will have full throttle again instantly. If you mount this button on top of the shifter, it would be easy to just press/depress it while changing gears. You could also put a second button next to it that copies the clutch on/off button so that you can turn the clutch off during down shifts and back on during upshifts. If the earlier poster said the same thing, my apologies. But I struggled to understand the diagram. Looked more complex than it needed to be.
There should also be a way to change how the h shifter works. But i haven't seen one pulled apart so can't comment.
- 510
- solarr-GTLMsquad
- Not a chance
👍👍:tup:this post is brief and to the point:tup:👍👍
Ferarri spends alot of money on the F430 Scuderia to make it shift so much faster than the standard. It is technology. If they are creative enought to figure out a way to make their car shift faster, more kudos to them.
Don't get mad get even..
- 818
I kinda agree and kinda dont. Real racing is very muchly about money, however a racing GAME should not be about how much money you are willing to spend on a wheel, rig, TV, sound system and so on. Maybe how much virtual money you are willing to spend
But not how much real money. A racing GAME should give all players a fair go. Real racing is all about money, the team that can afford to spend twice as much money is at a massive advantage. This is not what games are about though IMO.That said, using a manual clutch on the G25 is hard, and in most games you're at a disadvantage if you try and use it. In PC sims if you are using a manual clutch you often have to heel-toe to keep the car stable under brakes, which I find quite hard to do whilst at the same time still getting my braking zone perfect. Racing an 427 AC cobra in GTR evo (converted from GTL), if using a manual clutch I find it extremely hard to keep the car stable under brakes, or even in the corner for that matter, its hard enough keeping it stable with an auto clutch (which automatically rev matches for you, so you dont get any sudden jerks when changing gears).
Racing is about money but a good series will try to keep the playing field at least somewhat level. If we want accurate comparisons of drivers there needs to be some sort of standards established. From what I have read these guys are circumventing the guidelines on how we can improve our situation within the game as established by PD, Sony and Logitech. Just my thoughts
Last edited:
- 510
- solarr-GTLMsquad
- Not a chance
I kinda agree and kinda dont. Real racing is very muchly about money, however a racing GAME should not be about how much money you are willing to spend on a wheel, rig, TV, sound system and so on. Maybe how much virtual money you are willing to spend
Agreed!!!!!
I still won't call it cheating. Now if they share it with everyone, I think that they would be considered frontiers rather than cheaters. But that's just my $.02.
Timppaq
Premium
- 5,137
- Helsinki
- GTP_Timppaq
That's why the best of the both worlds imo would be separate leaderboards for clutch / no clutch. That way everybody would have their fun & fame. 👍 Because I do respect greatly all the guys who master the clutch.. I've never had the patience to learn it properly, but very much kudos to those who have. They just should belong to another group. Nothing wrong with it.
GTP_rpm
Premium
- 1,181
- GTP_rpm
I think compliments should always be welcome on this board, even if they're off-topic.
I had already contributed to the topic, by suggesting anyone who uses a G25 is cheating anyway. This was supposed to be funny. I'm an established sixaxis user on this forum and the fact that someone with a G25 would complain of others having an unfair advantage with equipment, tickled me somewhat.
- 546
- Northeast :(
- z06fun
Ok, I finally got to check out these replays mentioned in the first post. The thing that really struck me as odd was they are obviously in non-clutch mode for the down shifts. So it seemed like they were switching back and forth between the clutch & non clutch modes. Do you see where I'm going with this... Anyway after playing around a bit I was then able to reproduce something very similar with my G25, although I think any wheel with an H pattern shifter could replicate it.
Good news is PD can eliminate this real easy with a small code change.
I was able to make a shift that looked similar to the replay by hitting the triangle at just the right time during a shift. You have to be in non-clutch mode before you shift, if you hit the triangle at just the right time while moving the stick (and not lifting the gas) you can get a shift that looks just like what they are doing. So you build something that monitors the stick Y position and presses the triangle at the right time, and there you have it. Thats my guess anyway as to what they have built.
If PD changed things to not allow the clutch mode change during a shift then this can't be done. I suppose you could call it a code bug to allow a mode change during the shift.
Good news is PD can eliminate this real easy with a small code change.
I was able to make a shift that looked similar to the replay by hitting the triangle at just the right time during a shift. You have to be in non-clutch mode before you shift, if you hit the triangle at just the right time while moving the stick (and not lifting the gas) you can get a shift that looks just like what they are doing. So you build something that monitors the stick Y position and presses the triangle at the right time, and there you have it. Thats my guess anyway as to what they have built.
If PD changed things to not allow the clutch mode change during a shift then this can't be done. I suppose you could call it a code bug to allow a mode change during the shift.
- 1,131
- Slovenj Gradec
- TheNordschleife
It would be simpler to add an option at the beginning of a race (where you decide for manual or automatic shifting and other options) to simply add one option - clutch or no clutch. This option would be impossible to select when you are using automatic gearbox. And then, when you would start a race, you couldn't change options in between.
Because I also think it is very silly, that I must push the triangle button everytime I restart a race. I do mainly drifting and so the "races" are very short and this pushing of triangle every freaking time is just extremely anoying.
As for this "cheating" - I don't think it is really cheating. I don't like it, but that's not the point. And also I think that if someone has a G25, he should be able to use it as he would like. What's the point of having it, if there are some "rules" that clutch is not allowed. Those who say that are just like crying babies in my opinion.
And yes, I am a G25 user, and I've used an H shifter (Act Labs Shifter) with home made clutch for many years in PC games (since good old Grand Prix Legends) and I think I am good with it. But I have never been faster with it than with simple paddle shifting.
Because I also think it is very silly, that I must push the triangle button everytime I restart a race. I do mainly drifting and so the "races" are very short and this pushing of triangle every freaking time is just extremely anoying.
As for this "cheating" - I don't think it is really cheating. I don't like it, but that's not the point. And also I think that if someone has a G25, he should be able to use it as he would like. What's the point of having it, if there are some "rules" that clutch is not allowed. Those who say that are just like crying babies in my opinion.
And yes, I am a G25 user, and I've used an H shifter (Act Labs Shifter) with home made clutch for many years in PC games (since good old Grand Prix Legends) and I think I am good with it. But I have never been faster with it than with simple paddle shifting.
- 140
- Dreamweaverx
I would have to agree with most of what vipersan et. al. have said. While I don't believe the people in question were cheating per se, I think it is necessary to differentiate between those who are more "involved" in the simulation experience and those who just wish to sit back and enjoy some clean competitive racing.
As has been stated before one could argue the same point when person A has a sixaxxis and person B uses the clutch peddle on the G25. Both could have similar to identical track lines and techniques, but one is aided by a superior piece of equipment. My idea is that instead of trying to curb people down, we should instead separate them into appropriate classes. One who does not engage the clutch should not be forced to compete against someone who does, and vice versa. Therefore people who either don't have the time or monetary commitment, or just don't feel like being that involved into a video game, woudl not be penalized for their level of interest. At the same time those who would spend weeks in development would be rewarded for their commitment as well.
As has been stated before one could argue the same point when person A has a sixaxxis and person B uses the clutch peddle on the G25. Both could have similar to identical track lines and techniques, but one is aided by a superior piece of equipment. My idea is that instead of trying to curb people down, we should instead separate them into appropriate classes. One who does not engage the clutch should not be forced to compete against someone who does, and vice versa. Therefore people who either don't have the time or monetary commitment, or just don't feel like being that involved into a video game, woudl not be penalized for their level of interest. At the same time those who would spend weeks in development would be rewarded for their commitment as well.
- 818
If the game is properly balanced I dont see why we should have to separate wheel and controller users and clutch and no clutch users. Its bad for the life of any multiplayer game to have segregation, because naturally the number of games available for you to join decreases which means multiplayer dies out faster. Also, having clutch only rooms would be annoying, because 95% of people wont be using this method to get an advantage anyway, so we'd be forced to either lose to the people who do mod their G25 or race without the clutch in other rooms.
These things should be fixed on a "game" level to be properly balanced and ensure there is no chance for people to get an unfair advantage. Just dividing people up is not a good way to do it IMO. Hell, even in live for speed you'll get a room with people using a wheel, other people using a keyboard, other people using mouse steering and maybe even people on a controller. Then out of those people some would be using auto clutch, some would be using manual clutch. I've never had any issues with it at all.
I've never played a game where using a clutch was much of an advantage to require the need to separate clutch users and non clutch users. The tiny gains you might occasionally get are usually lost by all the times its far slower to use a clutch.
- 140
- Dreamweaverx
I don't know if I necessarily agree. I would assume that the entire point would be mute in the finished game (GT5) because these things would be addressed, but assuming the situation with the G25 wheel remains stagnant I think that it is important to realize that the use of the clutch and any other modification to the G25 can offer more then just an unnoticeable advantage. I think that this is most clear in competitions that you see on this forum. The race of champions comes to mind. They don't allow the use of the G25 w/ clutch enabled. If there was no real gain I would find that specific of a rule unnecessary.
I do however agree with the notion that segregation does not breed healthy online play. But as long as this issue remains unaddressed by the powers at be, the equipment advantage may just as much sour the online play experience.
I do however agree with the notion that segregation does not breed healthy online play. But as long as this issue remains unaddressed by the powers at be, the equipment advantage may just as much sour the online play experience.
- 676
- GTP_TrievelA7X
I don't know how realistic they are yet, but I LOVE the idea of a lifelike clutch. Gran Turismo has always programmed cars to shift via rev-matching, so cars that take longer to rev-down, (lose rpms), have extra long shifts. In real life, this does not happen. Cars may have shorter throws, more precise throws, shorter or longer clutch action, but It does not take that long to shift. Any simple youtube video of teenagers driving a manual car will give you all the proof you need.
So I think it's a fantastic idea, and properly working a clutch rather than shifting the "gran turismo" way, should be faster.
To "level the playing field", perhaps you'd prefer they sell the wheel/ pedals w/clutch, included with the game. And they could retail it for 200$?
Why do what the game will do for you? I drive with manual, because I can run faster laps that way. If Automatic were just as fast, I'd use that, then I'd never screw up! Which would give the automatic an advantage...And there it is. The same rules apply to a clutch. No benefit? harder to operate? costs more money? Why would you buy it? Why would you want to use it?
It takes the skill out of driving, just like those sissy paddle shifters, that way idiots that spend loads of cash on sports cars don't get made a fool of unless their car is actually slower.
So I think it's a fantastic idea, and properly working a clutch rather than shifting the "gran turismo" way, should be faster.
To "level the playing field", perhaps you'd prefer they sell the wheel/ pedals w/clutch, included with the game. And they could retail it for 200$?
But if they make stick, auto, and clutch not matter, not only are they taking realism away from the game, but they are also making no need for manual, or a clutch.
Why do what the game will do for you? I drive with manual, because I can run faster laps that way. If Automatic were just as fast, I'd use that, then I'd never screw up! Which would give the automatic an advantage...And there it is. The same rules apply to a clutch. No benefit? harder to operate? costs more money? Why would you buy it? Why would you want to use it?
It takes the skill out of driving, just like those sissy paddle shifters, that way idiots that spend loads of cash on sports cars don't get made a fool of unless their car is actually slower.
Last edited:
- 818
Well, LFS has a "realistc" auto. Most games have an unrealistic auto, the LFS one is realistic because, like a real auto, it usually wont downshift at the correct time when braking. So no one I know uses auto in LFS.
With regards to the auto clutch... manual clutch shouldn't be an advantage, its not in real life. Using a manual clutch should be because you want the added realism of using one or you like the feel of it, not because you are trying to gain some advantage. If using a manual clutch in PC sims you pretty much have to heel-toe when braking, which is realistic, if you dont in real life, the car will be unstable under brakes.
If a manual clutch were an advantage, race cars wouldn't bother with e-shifters.
But if they make stick, auto, and clutch not matter, not only are they taking realism away from the game, but they are also making no need for manual, or a clutch.
Why do what the game will do for you? I drive with manual, because I can run faster laps that way. If Automatic were just as fast, I'd use that, then I'd never screw up! Which would give the automatic an advantage...And there it is. The same rules apply to a clutch. No benefit? harder to operate? costs more money? Why would you buy it? Why would you want to use it?
It takes the skill out of driving, just like those sissy paddle shifters, that way idiots that spend loads of cash on sports cars don't get made a fool of unless their car is actually slower.[/QUOTE]
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Thank you for giving me the words.
I hope someone from PD comes here and says how much more ASM is used when using bumper cam,ABS1,paddles compared to incar view,ABS1,clutch.I think everyone of those settings has an influence to stability.Im not worried about not been able to race with clutch in WRS,I just want to race against clutch users.Because I know,that is the hardiest way to control those cars.
Its funny that ower these 18 months I have been here,I havent noticed ONE singel thread about clutch users,And this is worlds largest GT site.Lots of 'enthusiasts',but nothing that can be related to simulation driving.Its wierd.
Why do what the game will do for you? I drive with manual, because I can run faster laps that way. If Automatic were just as fast, I'd use that, then I'd never screw up! Which would give the automatic an advantage...And there it is. The same rules apply to a clutch. No benefit? harder to operate? costs more money? Why would you buy it? Why would you want to use it?
It takes the skill out of driving, just like those sissy paddle shifters, that way idiots that spend loads of cash on sports cars don't get made a fool of unless their car is actually slower.[/QUOTE]
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Thank you for giving me the words.
I hope someone from PD comes here and says how much more ASM is used when using bumper cam,ABS1,paddles compared to incar view,ABS1,clutch.I think everyone of those settings has an influence to stability.Im not worried about not been able to race with clutch in WRS,I just want to race against clutch users.Because I know,that is the hardiest way to control those cars.
Its funny that ower these 18 months I have been here,I havent noticed ONE singel thread about clutch users,And this is worlds largest GT site.Lots of 'enthusiasts',but nothing that can be related to simulation driving.Its wierd.
So for anyone who has said they don't view this as cheating. Lets say someone has bought a Mazda MX5 and is intending to run the MX5 Playboy Cup series. Mazda and the SCCA have established the guidelines for the series so even if I am a good mechanic I cannot go throwing a turbo on there just because I know how. So in this analogy I think everyone would agree it is cheating. What makes them buying a wheel modifying it for an unfair advantage able to be construed as as anything but cheating. I think that people that cannot see this are probably willing cheaters themselves. Or just too stupid to understand the concept of being gentleman racers. Just my opinion.
Last edited:
- 546
- Northeast :(
- z06fun
The problem here is that if you are in a long (endurance) race you are then forced to use the clutch for the whole thing. But also, what happens if you switch to the controller mid race. All they need to do is not allow a gear change within say a half second (before and after) of a mode change. Thats easy to do in code. At the very least, change the code to not allow them to happen simultaneously like is happening here.
Agreed! Hopefully they will have actual support for the thing that allows you to set a default clutch mode to start in.
- 5,963
- Finland
There's the point for you right there. There are no guidelines in playing GT5P online so this "cheating" isn't cheating as it isn't breaking any guidelines. Yes, it gives an advantage, but would you call a driver with a better car setup than you a cheater because it gives an advantage too? If the race says "no clutch" then it's obviously no clutch. If it's free for all, then it really is free for all. I might even say that the DS3 gives an advantage over the G25 in some situations but it's usually handily forgotten.
Thanks for calling me a willing cheater and stupid. I know a couple of definitions for you but they'd break the AUP for sure so I'm not including them here.
The guidelines have been laid out for us by Sony, PD, and Logitech. These people have chosen to go beyond the framework laid out for everyone. As for someone having a better setup that is within the framework of the game so not an accurate comparison.
My last comment from my last post was pretty crappy and out of character for me but was said out of spite for those claiming that someone not in favor of the mods is just a crybaby.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
