Clutch cheaters

[Leonidae]

The guidelines have been laid out for us by Sony, PD, and Logitech. These people have chosen to go beyond the framework laid out for everyone. As for someone having a better setup that is within the framework of the game so not an accurate comparison.

My last comment from my last post was pretty crappy and out of character for me but was said out of spite for those claiming that someone not in favor of the mods is just a crybaby.

That's funny.. None of them ( Sony, Logitech)has denied any of us from making custom rigs, such as cockpits with separate handbrakes and all that. It could be that they have DFP and have assigned the clutch to a button on the wheel or something, but you can't call it cheating because of that.. it's not your place to make up the rules. Nor is it mine.. If Sony, PolyPhony or Logitech send out a notification that this is not allowed, THEN it would be cheating.

 

[WolfRacer543]

So for anyone who has said they don't view this as cheating. Lets say someone has bought a Mazda MX5 and is intending to run the MX5 Playboy Cup series. Mazda and the SCCA have established the guidelines for the series so even if I am a good mechanic I cannot go throwing a turbo on there just because I know how. So in this analogy I think everyone would agree it is cheating. What makes them buying a wheel modifying it for an unfair advantage able to be construed as as anything but cheating. I think that people that cannot see this are probably willing cheaters themselves. Or just too stupid to understand the concept of being gentleman racers. Just my opinion.

I'm not sure what the rules in that particular series are, however in most forms of racing, even if there is rules on what engine/suspension/chassis/tires you can use, the team with more money is still at a huge advantage. More money = more tires and engines to go testing and thrash the car to learn how to get the most out of it, both for the engineers to tune it better and the drivers to get more experience.

 

[TrievelA7X]

Well, LFS has a "realistc" auto. Most games have an unrealistic auto, the LFS one is realistic because, like a real auto, it usually wont downshift at the correct time when braking. So no one I know uses auto in LFS.

With regards to the auto clutch... manual clutch shouldn't be an advantage, its not in real life. Using a manual clutch should be because you want the added realism of using one or you like the feel of it, not because you are trying to gain some advantage. If using a manual clutch in PC sims you pretty much have to heel-toe when braking, which is realistic, if you dont in real life, the car will be unstable under brakes.

If a manual clutch were an advantage, race cars wouldn't bother with e-shifters.

How many cars in GT5P are "manual" without a clutch? 5?, 10? Out of 70?
For all other cars, that only come with automatic or a real manual transmission, just pushing buttons to shift (like most of us do) should make them drive like automatics, with a driver shifting the automatic lever back and forth.
They could go as far as NFS Pro Street did, and just make L2 or R2 be a clutch, that works pretty well, for those of us that cannot afford an expensive steering wheel setup. (Or just don't want to pay 2-300$)

calaby01
I think that people that cannot see this are probably willing cheaters themselves. Or just too stupid to understand the concept of being gentleman racers. Just my opinion.

Just to stupid huh? How about you go learn to drive stick, judging by this post, you'll need a racing school.
Yes, real-life cars manual-automatic transmissions like the GT-R's, and Ferrari's are better. They shift faster.
However, this only applies to a small percentage of cars. For ALL the rest of them, being able to shift with a clutch, rather than manually shifting an automatic, is faster.
Not to mention drivetrain loss.

No rules say you can't use the clutch. You don't even know if these clutches are modified, or just being driven a certain way.
Regardless, no rules say you can't alter your steering wheel, that I know of, so if there are no rules against it, how is it cheating?
If you can't buy a G25 wheel w/clutch, start asking PD and Sony for a clutch button like NFS used in ProStreet.

 

[NoTC]

PD, here please!!! i'd rather dont have clutch than this type of 🤬

To me,clutch is the heart of this game compared to other GTs.Padles are fine with cars like F1.But road cars without ability to use clutch are 'arcadish'.Clutch and H-pattern is what makes this game feel real.Doesnt mather how fast(or slow)you are with clutch,and yes its ON/OFF,just like in real world.Or is someone using clutch differently in 100 mph?Are you step from it slowly when shifting,so that you can feel it bite?I dont,and I drive. [/QUOTE]
Oh stop rubbing it in, we can't all aford to get a G25.......

 

[WolfRacer543]

How many cars in GT5P are "manual" without a clutch? 5?, 10? Out of 70?
For all other cars, that only come with automatic or a real manual transmission, just pushing buttons to shift (like most of us do) should make them drive like automatics, with a driver shifting the automatic lever back and forth.
They could go as far as NFS Pro Street did, and just make L2 or R2 be a clutch, that works pretty well, for those of us that cannot afford an expensive steering wheel setup. (Or just don't want to pay 2-300$)

Just to stupid huh? How about you go learn to drive stick, judging by this post, you'll need a racing school.
Yes, real-life cars manual-automatic transmissions like the GT-R's, and Ferrari's are better. They shift faster.
However, this only applies to a small percentage of cars. For ALL the rest of them, being able to shift with a clutch, rather than manually shifting an automatic, is faster.
Not to mention drivetrain loss.

No rules say you can't use the clutch. You don't even know if these clutches are modified, or just being driven a certain way.
Regardless, no rules say you can't alter your steering wheel, that I know of, so if there are no rules against it, how is it cheating?
If you can't buy a G25 wheel w/clutch, start asking PD and Sony for a clutch button like NFS used in ProStreet.

Perhaps its because I view GT5 as a racing game, but even if you drive road cars, they'd be tuned to shift faster than a regular foot clutch. I've seen sequential manuals where the shifter has been modified so the clutch is on the shifter itself and when you "push" the shifter for a downshift, it also engages the clutch. Then when you pull it for an upshift, the clutch is on a mechanism so just before it hits the point where it shifts, you tap the clutch. This is an entirely MANUAL clutch system which has simply been modified with mechanisms so the driver doesn't have to do anything.

Other cars I've seen which have a regular manual clutch I've seen modified with E-shifters connected to paddles (instead of you moving a stick to flick the lever on the gearbox, you flick a paddle which trips an eletric motor to flick the exact same lever, on downshifts it even flicks the throttle to blip it). Nothing has been done to the actual running gear of the vehicle. Same engine, same gearbox, same clutch. Its just how the driver interfaces with those devices has been changed.

Thats why I'm not really fussed about clutches in games. Granted, I WANT a realistic feeling clutch and enjoy using one, I'd rather the game is balanced regardless of what controller you use. I'm not a massive fan of the clutch button though, a clutch should not be on/off, it should have a period where it engages gradually. If its instant on/off, the game has to compensate because in real life you would struggle to get going from a stop with an on/off clutch, it'd wear everything out a lot faster, and the car would be less stable when shifting unless you perfectly matched the revs, which is easier said than done. So I'd rather controller users not be forced to use a clutch than be forced to use an unrealistic one.

 

[calaby01]

Just to stupid huh? How about you go learn to drive stick, judging by this post, you'll need a racing school.
Yes, real-life cars manual-automatic transmissions like the GT-R's, and Ferrari's are better. They shift faster.
However, this only applies to a small percentage of cars. For ALL the rest of them, being able to shift with a clutch, rather than manually shifting an automatic, is faster.
Not to mention drivetrain loss.

No rules say you can't use the clutch. You don't even know if these clutches are modified, or just being driven a certain way.
Regardless, no rules say you can't alter your steering wheel, that I know of, so if there are no rules against it, how is it cheating?
If you can't buy a G25 wheel w/clutch, start asking PD and Sony for a clutch button like NFS used in ProStreet.

I have racing experience in karts and have been driving manuals for over thirty years. Do you have any idea of what the phrase gentleman racer means?

 

[davissi]

Hey Bruno what's Amir doing on the GT-R at Suzuka to get 1st place ? We can all keep the throttle down in that car can't we ?
Also on the subject of hacks, there's probably quite a few..isn't it quite simple to edit all the config files with a program such as yellowdog linux ?

 

[MeAgainstYou]

Hey Bruno what's Amir doing on the GT-R at Suzuka to get 1st place ? We can all keep the throttle down in that car can't we ?
Also on the subject of hacks, there's probably quite a few..isn't it quite simple to edit all the config files with a program such as yellowdog linux ?

ofcourse we keep the throttle down in that car.... as i said he is definitely a very fast guy.. and he play GT for a long while ago.. because its not possible for someone to show up in 2 weeks an beat all the rest.. hes undercover for sure..

anyway no matter who the f. he is... i dont care i'll beat him there no matter when... but ill beat 👍 actually we are both with the exactly same time on the leaderboards, 2'09.502 but im running 2 tenths faster until the chicane... just need to finish the univ... and then i'll get him

 

[Christhedude]

anyway no matter who the f. he is... i dont care i'll beat him there no matter when... but ill beat 👍 actually we are both with the exactly same time on the leaderboards, 2'09.502 but im running 2 tenths faster until the chicane... just need to finish the univ... and then i'll get him

GO BRUNO GO BRUNO

Im gonna and do my best on beating his record.

Chris

 

[Radracing]

Let's hope that when the full version comes out PD will have worked out the bugs with regards to the clutch issues. In my opinion you can not rule out the clutch since it is part of the driving experience of a lot of cars past, present and hopefully the future. So let's just suck it up and be real men about it.

 

[Christhedude]

yes exactly, but i still sure would like to know how they managed to come up with that super fast shift on those cars that the game doesnt allow those shifts.

Chris

 

[calaby01]

posts 130 and 131 sum it up perfectly

 

[balang_479]

I think cars like the F430 should not be allowed to use the clutch as the car doesnt have one.

 

[vipersan]

It would be simpler to add an option at the beginning of a race (where you decide for manual or automatic shifting and other options) to simply add one option - clutch or no clutch. This option would be impossible to select when you are using automatic gearbox. And then, when you would start a race, you couldn't change options in between.

The problem here is that if you are in a long (endurance) race you are then forced to use the clutch for the whole thing. But also, what happens if you switch to the controller mid race. All they need to do is not allow a gear change within say a half second (before and after) of a mode change. Thats easy to do in code. At the very least, change the code to not allow them to happen simultaneously like is happening here.

Because I also think it is very silly, that I must push the triangle button everytime I restart a race. I do mainly drifting and so the "races" are very short and this pushing of triangle every freaking time is just extremely anoying.

Agreed! Hopefully they will have actual support for the thing that allows you to set a default clutch mode to start in.

Amen to that.

As for the first one - well, if you choose to race an endurance race with clutch, you should end it. Can you imagine driving a "simple" 2h endurance with clutch and stick... Extremely hard and very rewarding afterwards

 

[Radracing]

yes exactly, but i still sure would like to know how they managed to come up with that super fast shift on those cars that the game doesnt allow those shifts.

Chris

Maybe if you befriend them and then send them a PM they might share it with you. But if you attact them right off they won't even bother with you. I'm sure whatever they are doing has an advantage but they would still really have to drive very well to post a good lap time. It's just like when race drivers started using left foot braking and everybody didn't know it had an advantage for better lap times now anybody that knows how has the freedom too use that style. So if it's there to use, then learn how to use it if you can use it well. But until PD decides to take that advantage away then there is no point to the argument but to find out how to use it to your advantage. That's racing for you.

 

[Jedi2016]

I'm seeing a whole lot of blustering in this thread, but one thing still eludes me.

What if I just use my DFP? It's got a sequential shifter that shifts pretty much exactly as all of you are describing this "cheating" G25 to be. Strictly speaking, I can shift faster than ANY of you on G25, just by using a standard controller. Does that mean I'm cheating?

I think a lot of you are making the assumption that these "cheaters" are using the G25 the same way you are. Does the G25 feature the ability to use the H-shifter without using the clutch? I'd wager it does. If anything, these so-called "cheaters" are doing just that, because that's exactly what it sounds like to me.

Remember, it's a game controller, not a real clutch. The descriptions in this thread have further convinced me not to bother with the G25. If the clutch doesn't behave like a real clutch (which it doesn't), then I'm not interested.

 

[RUFin]

To me this isnt about how fast you can shift,its about driving skills.Are you fast enough when using clutch,can you DRIVE.

 

[Chronos]

I think cars like the F430 should not be allowed to use the clutch as the car doesnt have one.

When the F430 was released you had the option of Manual transmission and clutch pedal.

Cars like the Nissan GTR, and SL55, and I think the Ferrari California don't have all manual option so neither does the game.

 

[Horde_R35]

I just think drivers should and could change gear in the G25 with the foot down on the gas! Well in REAL LIFE i do , and if this is the ULTIMATE DRIVING SIMULATER that driving tecnic must be added in a future G25 !

EDIT: Go bro and show them what your made of ! They will be sorry for pissing you off ! Now they WILL PAY !

 

[yossigab]

That's funny.. None of them ( Sony, Logitech)has denied any of us from making custom rigs, such as cockpits with separate handbrakes and all that. It could be that they have DFP and have assigned the clutch to a button on the wheel or something, but you can't call it cheating because of that.. it's not your place to make up the rules. Nor is it mine.. If Sony, PolyPhony or Logitech send out a notification that this is not allowed, THEN it would be cheating.

I think that there are 2 different discussions that are being mixed up together:
The first is - what is the exact method they are doing in order to accomplish what you see on the videos? A lot of people here are trying to develop theories of "they change the gear so the clutch is automatically pressed during shift" or "they move from manual to automatic during a race" and so on. You can not tell (or argue) that they are cheaters as long as you are not sure what is the exact method being used.
So one discussion is basically to guess/understand what they are doing, and only when someone will actually be able to copy exactly what they are doing during a full lap then we can say that we know what they do.

The second thing is - "what is called cheating in race game?". Because based on the theories above, some people say that they are cheating and others say they don't. I think that this is mostly because each person refer to a different "method" that he thinks was done to perform the lap as shown.
For example:
a) If someone is buying wheel from one brand, gear box from another, paddles from different, and a racing rig for 1000$ !!! (I wish...) all are without any modding - is that called cheating? No, since they are all "official" parts.
b) If someone owns a DFP and add some sort of spring or rubber under the brake paddle to make it more sensitive is this kind of mod called "cheating" - still I think not since it's only to overcome some malfunction of the device it self.
c) If someone was able to use the wheel so gently in a way that he able to switch gears without a setting throttle to OFF - then this is still not cheating, since this is how the game was probably design to work, and only "the best of the best" could accomplish that.
d) If someone is changing the electronics in a way that some key is also pressing different key (or automatically disconnecting it) - is that "cheating" - I think YES since it's actually changing the designed behavior of the device and make it works differently from the way the designers wanted it to work.

P.S. Sorry if my english is not perfect I hope I explained my self well...

 

[Leonidae]

you made a lot more sense than many of the rest who have posted in this thread. 👍

 

[zocker_16]

Good post yossigab 👍
This threat is turning into a "clutch vs.-no-clutch-vs-wheel-vs.-pad" fight which has nothing to do with the topic.

PD gave every player the possibility to decide if he wants to use a pad, wheel or a wheel with clutch. So there´s nothing about cheating if you use the clutch.
But the guy we´re talking about doesn´t use it the "normal" way he´s doing something different.
The question is: What?
Did he something with his wheel like changing electronic componets, switching between clutch and no-clutch or did he hack the game?

 

[bobzed]

thanks, Zocker, you bring discussion back to topic.

Personally I like using clutch very much, that feels more realistic to me and I the car seems to be more stable with heel-toe, but that's another story.

I use manual clutch in my local Time Trial League as that is NOT prohibited with the rules.
But, when I take part in GTP event or any other online or time trial event, where the rules say CLUTCH is prohibited, I do not use that.

And that's fair for both me and my rivals, as we, entering an event with specific rules, agree to follow them. Othrwise it' cheating.

Talking about those guys using some kind of a mod, we can definately call them cheaters (as well as those cutting track and wallriding).
But we must take into consideration, that they do not or may not take part in any of the events and they don't have to follow any of the rules. Maybe they just enjoy making mod. And the don't give a thing to what we are talking over here.

 

[z06fun]

Good post yossigab 👍
....
But the guy we´re talking about doesn´t use it the "normal" way he´s doing something different.
The question is: What?
Did he something with his wheel like changing electronic componets, switching between clutch and no-clutch or did he hack the game?

Check back to post #109, I explained what they are doing. I was able to replicate the same type of shift just messing around with my G25.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3443373&postcount=109

 

[rmk700]

PD gave every player the possibility to decide if he wants to use a pad, wheel or a wheel with clutch. So there´s nothing about cheating if you use the clutch.
But the guy we´re talking about doesn´t use it the "normal" way he´s doing something different.
The question is: What?
Did he something with his wheel like changing electronic componets, switching between clutch and no-clutch or did he hack the game?

This thread is about clutches and people using it at an unknown way... though Zo6fun's therory makes good sense.

Pd did give us the choise but that doesn't mean its ok. The prob I have is the clutch should have a function choise (like the square button or something) for all wheels and controllers and not just the ones with actual clutches. All need to be able to choose if we want.

I have a G25 now and use clutch for just messing around but choose to never use it in any time trials, events or challenges. So I'm not always in top 10 ...oh well

BTW I miss the good old days of UWRL zocker.

 

[renzo42]

if polyphony digital disapproved of what those "cheaters" are doing, im sure PD would have removed their TT rankings by now. Any unfair play in the Drift trials results in scores being removed from the leader boards so im assuming its the same for TTs?

 

[yossigab]

Check back to post #109, I explained what they are doing. I was able to replicate the same type of shift just messing around with my G25.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3443373&postcount=109

I have read your post and I would like to say that:
A) If they actually build some device that monitors the buttons and doing something as a result then it's definitely cheating since they are not using the device as it was planned to be used (read my previous post).

B) But, if they are only clicking the buttons at the right timing during driving then it is problematic since:
1) If PD actually designed it this way - then it is not a cheating, this is how it was meant to be used by "the best drivers" (look at F1 videos for how many buttons are being pressed during one lap)
2) If those guys found some flaw with how PD designed the game, then it's a bug and PD should fix it. In this case I would say that this is cheating similar to wall-riding or dirt-shortcuts: flaws/bugs in the game that it doesn't recognize those situations and penalized the driver as a result.

The problem is that we don't know if it's done using some device (A) or they are doing it manually (B). And if it's manually, then whether it's (1) which is OK or (2) which is wrong.

 

[tupacrulez]

I've used the pad, the wheel in sequential, the wheel with 6 way, and the wheel with 6way+clutch.


and hers the thing: unless you use the clutch, ther is a clear delay in the power. you can hear it. however, my friends and I who play have all noticed that when using a clutch, there is almost NO power delay. as fast as you can switch your feet, throw it into gear, and get back on, is how fast you WILL shift. my friends and I have gotten it down to a science. I often don't see the 'N' for neutral anymore, because the G25's clutch application in GT5 is basically "on" and "off", so I can just wing through the gears as fast as I can can. in games like LFS and GTR2, there is some leeway, a grab point. but that does not exist in GT5. in GT5, it is "clutch on" or "clutch off". that is all.

so, simply put, those guys who shift blindingly fast aren't cheating, they're just taking advantage of a gameplay mechanic that isn't properly implemented, but perfectly valid to use.

 

[Jay]

in GT5, it is "clutch on" or "clutch off". that is all.

Everyone likes to say this but it is not true, the clutch engaging range is small but it is not on/off, you can ride/slip the clutch with a delicate touch.

I do wish they fix that in GT5.

 

[TrievelA7X]

Perhaps its because I view GT5 as a racing game, but even if you drive road cars, they'd be tuned to shift faster than a regular foot clutch. I've seen sequential manuals where the shifter has been modified so the clutch is on the shifter itself and when you "push" the shifter for a downshift, it also engages the clutch. Then when you pull it for an upshift, the clutch is on a mechanism so just before it hits the point where it shifts, you tap the clutch. This is an entirely MANUAL clutch system which has simply been modified with mechanisms so the driver doesn't have to do anything.

Does a factory Z06 have this? Ford Focus St? RX-7? I'm not even sure what your point is by saying you've seen "road cars" with modified transmissions...Of course it can be done.

cars I've seen which have a regular manual clutch I've seen modified with E-shifters connected to paddles (instead of you moving a stick to flick the lever on the gearbox, you flick a paddle which trips an eletric motor to flick the exact same lever, on downshifts it even flicks the throttle to blip it). Nothing has been done to the actual running gear of the vehicle. Same engine, same gearbox, same clutch. Its just how the driver interfaces with those devices has been changed.

Yes, when a computer/electric motor do it for you, that's where the title "automatic" is usually placed. Except by those who want to make it sound more skillful. Understand, pulling a shifter with your hand, that is connected via direct gear linkage, that moves the gears around, is much different than pulling a paddle to tell the computer to shift for you.

why I'm not really fussed about clutches in games. Granted, I WANT a realistic feeling clutch and enjoy using one, I'd rather the game is balanced regardless of what controller you use. I'm not a massive fan of the clutch button though, a clutch should not be on/off, it should have a period where it engages gradually. If its instant on/off, the game has to compensate because in real life you would struggle to get going from a stop with an on/off clutch, it'd wear everything out a lot faster, and the car would be less stable when shifting unless you perfectly matched the revs, which is easier said than done. So I'd rather controller users not be forced to use a clutch than be forced to use an unrealistic one.

The car would be less stable when shifting? are you talking about power shifting mid-corner? Or...? Last I checked, your gear should be selected before you enter the corner, and you shouldn't have to shift before you're out of the corner. So you're saying that the car is less stable in a straight line when shifting using a clutch? Watch out for that wall bud, it's time to shift.