Congress should renew the Federal Assault Weapons Ban Act

  • Thread starter Swara
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^That Nevada guy was just on the unfortunate end of an idiot with a gun. Unfortunately many idiots have guns. Does that make me anti-gun? Nope. I think a person should have some heat to protect themselves. Not everybody lives in homes where police response is quick, and have ADT security systems all over.

As for assault weapons though, it should be made unattainable or at least priced in a way that discourages purchases. If a person wants to defend him or herself, a good old-fashioned pistol should do the job real fine. Not a rifle that has rounds that can penetrate through tough stuff.

On the militia argument: I personally think that argument is not valid anymore since one, our freaking military is goddamn stacked, and two, your militia is not gonna stop that M1 tank or F-22 obliterating your position.
 
I can understand people buying pistols, and rifles for either hunting, or protection, but when it comes to automatic assault rifles, and shotguns, those should only be purchased for either skeet shooting, or for reserve like if there is a national state of emergency, or if we are invaded, then, and only then can those two types of weapons be used legally. But that's my opinion, no I'm not a gun nut, I'll probably never own one, but I don't think our right to own one should be taken away either, they should just redefine it.
 
Opponent claims: Crime was worse when the ban was in effect
My rebuttal: There is no concrete evidence to suggest and/or state that the crime rate was actually worse when the ban act was in effect. As a matter of fact, according to Time Magazine, “[Holmes’] weapon of choice was prohibited during the 10-year life of the 1994 federal assault-weapons ban.” Had the ban been in effect at the time of the shooting, 12 lives would have been saved, and it would have prevented 58 others from injury. Also, according to the New York Times, the guns that were used in the 2007 Virginia Tech shooting would have been banned if the Federal Assault Weapons Ban Act, saving 33 lives, and preventing and additional 23 from injury. Also, the Remington Model 870 shotgun used in the 2005 Red Lake Senior High shooting is also prohibited in the Ban act. These incidents, with numerous others, would have been prevented had the Federal Assault Weapons Ban been in effect at the time. So, it is flagrant that the crime rate was in fact worse when the ban was NOT in effect.


EDIT- maybe this thread can be moved to the Opinions/Current Events sub-forum.

Dis-agree with the OP.
Had the ban been in effect, the events still would have happened. The shootings / killings were premeditated. If you take away the aforementioned weapons from the criminals who used them, they simply would have / could have gotten another firearm to use to commit these heinous crimes. No, the law would not have changed these peoples mind about going out and doing what they did. They were dead set (no pun intended here) on what their intentions were.
 
swara96, you are against weapons and you live in the US? That is against the law man!

;)

To all: because you cannot see my facial expression: not too serious
 
I can definitely understand handguns being allowed for personal protection and hunting rifles for hunting, but assault rifles?

Where is the limit drawn?
 
Assault rifles shoot targets just as well as handguns and hunting rifles. AR15s are actually really popular for deer hunting. Likewise, handguns and hunting rifles are similarly effective at killing people if used for that so I'm not really seeing your point. What a gun does is up to the user.
 
MarcoM
swara96, you are against weapons and you live in the US? That is against the law man!

;)

To all: because you cannot see my facial expression: not too serious

Well if you ask me personally, I'm against this topic. But since it's a debate, I have to be flexible with both sides:
 
I see that you are. I just noticed in other threads that the pro-gunners are not that flexible in their thinking.

I do appreciate that you bring up the topic.
 
The ban did essentially nothing.

Besides, what about the Second Amendment? I don't see anywhere in there that makes exception for "assault weapons."

Sure some people will attempt to say that only a "well-regulated" militia is allowed to keep and bear arms, but how does a well-regulated militia exist without an armed populace? A militia is not the National Guard or the military. It was a group of ordinary citizens. Another concern that arises from this is that the militia is essential to the security of freedom - or a free "state." If you let the Federal government "regulate" the militia, doesn't that effectively destroy the intended purpose of a militia or the Second Amendment - which is for the security of a free 'state.' I put state in quotes because it could refer to a political "state" such as Arizona, or it could refer to the state of being free - as in protecting freedom & the rights protected by the Constitution.

State Constitutions also include a gauruntee to keep and bear arms, therefore it is also a violation of Constitutional rights at the state level.

What happens is that these bans do not hurt the criminals, they hurt the law abiding individual. The government knows this, and it's an attempt to disarm the populace. Our Founding Fathers put the Second Amendment in the Constitution for a reason. I do not think it should be removed or limited because of the fears of irrational idiots.

Guns are heavily controlled in Europe and Australia, but people seem to get hold of them and commit crimes with them. Look at Chicago. 82 murders and 37 people injured (I can look up a link to the article if anyone wants to read it). How does that happen if it's illegal to carry a gun outside one's home?

Look at a country like Switzerland. Male citizens (I think) are required to do military service and then are required to take their weapons home with them and train with them regularly for national defense. These aren't just .22s or hunting rifles, these are machine guns with selector switches and the works. Surprisingly, their crime rates are not out of control.

If guns are illegal, the criminals are still going to get them. If guns are completely removed from our society, criminals will find other things to use as a weapon to do what they want.

Guns are a cornerstone of American society as much as apple pie or baseball. If people don't like them, nobody's making them buy one. All I am saying as a gun owner is - Don't Tread On Me.

The carrying of weapons was illegal in that movie theater since they had a sign outside prohibiting it. The county in Colorado where this happened had a no-carry policy. Maybe if people in that theater were allowed to protect themselves, they would have had a fighting chance. It's especially interesting to see how it would have turned out considering some of these people who died were active military and would have been trained better than a citizen with a CC permit.

If people want to live in a world without assault weapons, there are plenty of states where they're illegal. Such as California, New York, Illinois, Massachusetts... Rather than imposing their anti-gun values upon the rest of society.

That's just my two cents, and I hope we can keep this conversation civil and factual.

I'm pretty liberal, but this.
 
swara96, you are against weapons and you live in the US? That is against the law man!

;)

To all: because you cannot see my facial expression: not too serious

In the United States, expressing an opinion isn't against the law, even though somebody's opinion may be extremely naive and stupid.

I can definitely understand handguns being allowed for personal protection and hunting rifles for hunting, but assault rifles?

Where is the limit drawn?

Let's not confuse assault *rifles* with assault *weapons.* They are not the same thing. Assault rifles are already heavily regulated by Federal law in the United States. It isn't like you can just walk into a gun store and buy one and walk out the same day. It requires paperwork, ATF tax stamp, registration stuff, a lengthy background check and I'm pretty sure your local police department has to sign your paperwork and let you have it. That's at their discretion. Not to mention, assault rifles are pretty expensive in comparison to semi-automatic only versions that are a fraction of the price. Assault rifles are the types of weapons they find at Mexican crime scenes - most of which have no serial numbers on them because they are military weapons that came from the United States government and were stolen from Mexican military armories. Either that or they're foreign weapons which aren't legal to import to the United States and were smuggled in from other countries like Guatemala.

But nope, let's just pin it on American civilian weapons.

Assault WEAPONS, for lack of a better definition, are basically just guns that look scary. Like the ubiquitous AR-15. It looks like an M16, but it isn't the same thing in any way except external appearance. They're no different in operation than any common hunting rifle, just that they look different from the outside. Or another thing that determines assault weapons is the features they have like a magazine that holds more than 10 rounds. Mostly it's just politicians being idiots and they really know absolutely nothing about the stuff they want to ban.

Show me where the Second Amendment defines "assault rifles", or makes any kind of reference to what types of weapons people may own. Bill of RIGHTS, not a Bill of Needs.

The Second Amendment is also not about hunting or "sporting purpose." It was about having a way to stop tyranny should it ever happen again. (The Founding Fathers just fought an entire war against tyranny imposed on them by King George and England).

How do you determine what's necessary for self-defense? Again, Bill of RIGHTS, not needs.

I'm pretty liberal, but this.

That's because it's impossible to argue against facts.
 
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That's because it's impossible to argue against facts.

Exactly, if we outlaw guns, do you think street gangs or the mafia or whatever will just not get any? Focus not on dismembering the 2nd admendment and fight those illegal guns. There should be quick id and criminal test, but don't punish upstanding citizens for illegal guns. As a mostly democrat, this is something the rights have a pretty damn good point on.
 
Assault rifles shoot targets just as well as handguns and hunting rifles. AR15s are actually really popular for deer hunting. Likewise, handguns and hunting rifles are similarly effective at killing people if used for that so I'm not really seeing your point. What a gun does is up to the user.

So no limits really? An AA-gun on the lawn? Minigun? Rocket launchers (technically not a gun but still)? I mean the government has got tanks.

I was basically curious what is allowed and what people think should be allowed.

There must be a limit no? Or should anything be ok? That was my point. :)
 
Exactly, if we outlaw guns, do you think street gangs or the mafia or whatever will just not get any? Focus not on dismembering the 2nd admendment and fight those illegal guns. There should be quick id and criminal test, but don't punish upstanding citizens for illegal guns. As a mostly democrat, this is something the rights have a pretty damn good point on.

There is a quick criminal background check. Way back when, the Brady Law made it so that the Feds controlled all the background checks, the NRA sued them, and out of it came the NICS system where FFL holders (like a gun shop) call in and I think the FBI - instantly checks your criminal history for any red flags. In most states, long guns - like a rifle or shotgun - you can walk out with same day. Handguns require a waiting period in most states. Here in Wisconsin, it's two days, which I think is outrageous because what if there's a clear threat to your life and you need it immediately? However, I can't complain because some states - like California - have a two week waiting period, and only "approved" guns can be sold there.




So no limits really? An AA-gun on the lawn? Minigun? Rocket launchers (technically not a gun but still)? I mean the government has got tanks.

I was basically curious what is allowed and what people think should be allowed.

There must be a limit no? Or should anything be ok? That was my point. :)


Of course there are limits. Just like the First Amendment doesn't give you the right to make threats against people. Who gets to determine what is adequate for self-defense? We the People, or the politicians? Not to mention, I don't know too many people that can afford an AA gun, minigun, rocket launcher or a tank, or find those things legally being sold anywhere.
 
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I don't know anybody who can afford an AA gun, or a Minigun, or a rocket launcher, or tanks... Also, don't you think that those things would be going quite a bit overboard for self-defense? Not to mention, I don't think you're going to find those things for sale anywhere.

I didn't say tanks but rocket launchers to combat evil government tanks. Anyway, it is overboard and that was my point. When does it go overboard? To me, assault rifles seem way overboard. But then again I'm not American.
 
I didn't say tanks but rocket launchers to combat evil government tanks. Anyway, it is overboard and that was my point. When does it go overboard? To me, assault rifles seem way overboard. But then again I'm not American.

That's why we have the United States Supreme Court. Personally, I still think it leaves room for political activism, but that's what it will end up coming down to - a court decision.

Just like when Chicago and Washington DC tried to make it illegal for people to own handguns or any firearms at all in their cities. Both those bans were overturned.
 
So no limits really? An AA-gun on the lawn? Minigun? Rocket launchers (technically not a gun but still)? I mean the government has got tanks.

I was basically curious what is allowed and what people think should be allowed.

There must be a limit no? Or should anything be ok? That was my point. :)
The Constitution doesn't limit it. That document aside, logically, a populace cannot defend itself from a tyrannical government with nearly unlimited havoc-wreaking capabilities unless they also have access to nearly unlimited havoc-wreaking capabilities. We should have absolutely no reason to fear our government, but the point at which they can destroy things better than I can is the point where I distrust them to restrain themselves.

If a person actually wants to set an AA gun in their front yard then they should be allowed to. Other people are also allowed to complain about it, though the complainant will have to prove in civil court how their life, liberty, or property was infringed by an AA gun sitting harmlessly in the lawn next door.

A scenario like that obviously requires that we choose people to be judges are adhere strictly to the Constitution and believe very strongly in the three basic human rights of life, liberty, and property. Americans are getting steadily worse at placing in power people who genuinely believe in those things.
 
The Constitution doesn't limit it. That document aside, logically, a populace cannot defend itself from a tyrannical government with nearly unlimited havoc-wreaking capabilities unless they also have access to nearly unlimited havoc-wreaking capabilities. We should have absolutely no reason to fear our government, but the point at which they can destroy things better than I can is the point where I distrust them to restrain themselves.

If a person actually wants to set an AA gun in their front yard then they should be allowed to. Other people are also allowed to complain about it, though the complainant will have to prove in civil court how their life, liberty, or property was infringed by an AA gun sitting harmlessly in the lawn next door.

A scenario like that obviously requires that we choose people to be judges are adhere strictly to the Constitution and believe very strongly in the three basic human rights of life, liberty, and property. Americans are getting steadily worse at placing in power people who genuinely believe in those things.

+1 👍
 
The Constitution doesn't limit it. That document aside, logically, a populace cannot defend itself from a tyrannical government with nearly unlimited havoc-wreaking capabilities unless they also have access to nearly unlimited havoc-wreaking capabilities. We should have absolutely no reason to fear our government, but the point at which they can destroy things better than I can is the point where I distrust them to restrain themselves.

If a person actually wants to set an AA gun in their front yard then they should be allowed to. Other people are also allowed to complain about it, though the complainant will have to prove in civil court how their life, liberty, or property was infringed by an AA gun sitting harmlessly in the lawn next door.

A scenario like that obviously requires that we choose people to be judges are adhere strictly to the Constitution and believe very strongly in the three basic human rights of life, liberty, and property. Americans are getting steadily worse at placing in power people who genuinely believe in those things.

The idea that people should be allowed to own nearly any type of weapon is very "alien" to people outside the US. That's where our cultural differences really show.

I understand that the constitution allows it. But to me it would seem like the constitution is in dire need of questioning. But again I'm not American.
 
How do you Europeans defend yourselfs? Can you even own hunting rifles???

Yes you can own hunting rifles if you've got the license for it. Obviously laws are different from country to country though so I can't speak for all of Europe. You can own a handgun in Sweden but the rules are strict and you can't carry it with you in public. I'm unsure of the exact rules.

Edit: Luckily most European countries are much safer than America, so the pros/cons of guns being allowed are hard to compare.
 
Actually, by proportions of populations, as America is way bigger in population compared to first world European countries, we are actually about dead even in crime.

So...Yeah...
 
In the United States, expressing an opinion isn't against the law, even though somebody's opinion may be extremely naive and stupid.

So even when I spell it out for you, you do not understand bit of joking?

Actually, by proportions of populations, as America is way bigger in population compared to first world European countries, we are actually about dead even in crime.

So...Yeah...

I would like to seem some reliable figures on that first, befor you go "So...Yeah...."
 
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I'm not even bothered by crime statistics, my only concern is the principle behind self defense. If you think that's humans have rights to their life, their freedom of choice, and their property, then you must also believe that it is wrong to infringe those rights of others. It's wrong, but that same freedom of choice that everybody has allows people to choose to do bad things. Because that is a possibility then everybody should have the option to defend their rights against such a thing because police can't be everywhere all the time.

It's not that guns make everybody safer because that's not always the case. It's the principle that if your rights exist then logically the option to defend them must also exist or else you effectively forfeit your rights.
 
The DC vs. Heller opinion laid out very clearly that the 2nd amendment is in place to protect an individual right to self-defense, not to protect the existence of militias. In my opinion, every American should familiarize themselves with DC vs Heller as it very clearly and thoroughly debunks the notion that the second amendment was never intended as an individual right.

Please read, and try to hang in there with terms like "prefatory" and "operative". They're worth understanding for this discussion:

wikipedia
(1) The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Pp. 2–53.
(a) The Amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms. Pp. 2–22.
(b) The prefatory clause comports with the Court’s interpretation of the operative clause. The “militia” comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. The Antifederalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in order to disable this citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved. Pp. 22–28.
(c) The Court’s interpretation is confirmed by analogous arms-bearing rights in state constitutions that preceded and immediately followed the Second Amendment. Pp. 28–30.
(d) The Second Amendment’s drafting history, while of dubious interpretive worth, reveals three state Second Amendment proposals that unequivocally referred to an individual right to bear arms. Pp. 30–32.
(e) Interpretation of the Second Amendment by scholars, courts and legislators, from immediately after its ratification through the late 19th century also supports the Court’s conclusion. Pp. 32–47.
(f) None of the Court’s precedents forecloses the Court’s interpretation. Neither United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542 , nor Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252 , refutes the individual-rights interpretation. United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174 , does not limit the right to keep and bear arms to militia purposes, but rather limits the type of weapon to which the right applies to those used by the militia, i.e., those in common use for lawful purposes. Pp. 47–54.
(2) Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. Pp. 54–56.
(3) The handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to self-defense) violate the Second Amendment. The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this prohibition – in the place where the importance of the lawful defense of self, family, and property is most acute – would fail constitutional muster. Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional. Because Heller conceded at oral argument that the D. C. licensing law is permissible if it is not enforced arbitrarily and capriciously, the Court assumes that a license will satisfy his prayer for relief and does not address the licensing requirement. Assuming he is not disqualified from exercising Second Amendment rights, the District must permit Heller to register his handgun and must issue him a license to carry it in the home. Pp. 56–64.
The Opinion of the Court, delivered by Justice Scalia, was joined by Chief Justice John G. Roberts, Jr. and by Justices Anthony M. Kennedy, Clarence Thomas and Samuel A. Alito Jr.[44]

wikipedia
The core holding in D.C. v. Heller is that the Second Amendment is an individual right intimately tied to the natural right of self-defense.
 
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So even when I spell it out for you, you do not understand bit of joking?



I would like to seem some reliable figures on that first, befor you go "So...Yeah...."

I've tried searching, but I only really get FBI stats on America, and there is no set USA and Europe crime stats kept. So I pretty much had to compare the various numbers posted from different websites.

But Europe being safer than America?

I wanna see reliable figures on that.

So...Yeah...
 
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I've tried searching, but I only really get FBI stats on America, and there is no set USA and Europe crime stats kept. So I pretty much had to compare the various numbers posted from different websites.

But Europe being safer than America?

I wanna see reliable figures on that.

So...Yeah...

I never claimed that. My rough guess is that it would be equal percentage wise.

[WONDERMODE] What is it with this "So...Yeah....". Is it a new cool thing to end written conversation in English? [/WONDERMODE]
 
I never claimed that. My rough guess is that it would be equal percentage wise.

[WONDERMODE] What is it with this "So...Yeah....". Is it a new cool thing to end written conversation in English? [/WONDERMODE]

Haha good point.:)

And yes it is the new cool thing.:dopey: Try it out with your elderly!👍
 
We should have absolutely no reason to fear our government, but the point at which they can destroy things better than I can is the point where I distrust them to restrain themselves.

OMG, Keef's working on a ICBM in his basement. Can't trust those Hawaiian city council members, they may re-zone Dayton.
 
^I approve of that signature.

Now as for assault rifles...er not so much.

I mean, Mr. Kalashnikov did create an assault rifle at the behest of a government inquiry into new weaponry. I keep thinking of that whenever someones says guns like those are meant for hunting.

Besides that, I think hunting should be kept as an art form. Something about assault rifles and hunting makes it sound cheap.
 
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