Creation vs. Evolution

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James2097
My question is a serious, philosophical in nature... please answer!
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"I am fascinated by Spinoza’s pantheism, but I admire even more his contribution to modern thought because he... (dealt) with the soul and body as one, not two separate things."

-Albert Einstein

I agree witht his statement, as I stated earlier in this topic

Famine
Interesting question.
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Absolutley
 
"But where do all the calculators go?" - Kryten, Red Dwarf.

Just wanted to use that line all along. :lol:


BTW stop flogging the dead horse that Einstein was religious in any kind of way that would support christianity. He was most certainly NOT.

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous* egotisms."
-- Albert Einstein, obituary in New York Times, 19 April 1955
*HE CAN SPELL RIDICULOUS, A SMART MAN I SAY!

There are a shedload of awesome Einstein quotes from where this one came from! He was misunderstood by desperate christians who thought he was a believer, this wasn't the case. He was interested greatly in the concepts from a pure academic point of view, but he thought any kind of organised religion quite idiotic.
 
James2097
No, I was just wondering if its just humans that can have souls. Like in the AI thread, if a computer got really intelligent and had human emotions, well could it go to heaven?

I'm serious! Don't mock my question Touring Mars. I'm wondering that if we know you don't need a physical body for a soul to "live" in, if you have a perfect version of a human mind with all emotions intact, in effect a real living human but missing an earthly body. Would this matter? Would this person still possess a soul?
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Sorry James.... I'm not mocking you or your question. :)

I reckon you already know my feelings about this issue anyway.... But to answer you directly, I think that a computer of equal processing power to the human brain would possess the same feelings/emotions/soul as a human.... we are just biological machines after all... IMO, there is nothing divine about the human state.
 
Touring Mars
Sorry James.... I'm not mocking you or your question. :)

I reckon you already know my feelings about this issue anyway.... But to answer you directly, I think that a computer of equal processing power to the human brain would possess the same feelings/emotions/soul as a human.... we are just biological machines after all... IMO, there is nothing divine about the human state.
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Hey I was just joking about you mocking my question, it WAS a dumb question. I just wanted Earth to answer it, so I could use the Red Dwarf quote. I had to make it a bit smarter to get an answer.:lol: Its really that simple. Pretty sad eh?

But yeah I agree that there is nothing special about humans biologically (other than an intelligent brain). All other animals (esp. mammals, monkeys etc) operate on the same mechanical concepts. If they don't have a soul (and they are genetically and conceptually very similar to ourselves) it makes little sense that we would magically be blessed with some extra life-forcey super awesome immortal soul kinda thing.

Just to rub in the Einstein thing http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/einstein.htm
 
James2097
I agree that there is nothing special about humans biologically (other than an intelligent brain). All other animals (esp. mammals, monkeys etc) operate on the same mechanical concepts. If they don't have a soul (and they are genetically and conceptually very similar to ourselves) it makes little sense that we would magically be blessed with some extra life-forcey super awesome immortal soul kinda thing.
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Well said... 👍 and your statement in no way belittles the unique brilliance of human consciousness, which is undoubtely an amazing thing in its own right, without the need for false explanation or justification.
 
Touring Mars
Well said... 👍 and your statement in no way belittles the unique brilliance of human consciousness, which is undoubtely an amazing thing in its own right, without the need for false explanation or justification.
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Thats why they call me... CLEVER JAKE... Er I mean CLEVER JAMES! AHAARR!


Edit: Not feeling too clever at the moment, just stubbed my toe real bad. I started carrying on like a monkey... stupid sounding oohs and ahhhs. Which got me thinking. Our basic emotional (pain/pleasure) responses at either extreme are pretty damn simple. We don't exactly use words neccessarily, we regress into a simpler evolutionary state. Just look at rugby players! GRRR! I totally believe we were monkeys once, and I'm game enough to use myself as an example. OW! OW! OW!
 
I was not trying to bring up Einstein belief in God. I have no idea how you got that out of my statement. I said I agree with how he believed the soul and body are one. Nothing else or more.

Good thing oddballs like you guys are the minority in the world
 
You'd brought up Einstein more than once, I believe you've used him at least once in the wrong context. I was just clearing it up for other religious folk also. You wouldn't believe how many times I've heard people use Einstein on their list of supposed 'religious scientists' to help give creationism some cred. Many Christians think Einstein was a believer, its a common mistake to make. I just don't really think Einstein would've liked any creationist or religious person quoting him to support their beliefs in any way.

Its okay being an oddball, why would I want to be normal, that'd be really dull.
Einstein was an oddball. :D
 
Question time again.

Even if the theory of evolution is true, is there a higher purpose in life? (If yes, elaborate in detail if you can. If no, give reasons as to why this is not possible at all.)

And is there any type of higher being in existence? (If yes, elaborate in detail if you can. If no, give reasons as to why this is not possible at all as well.)
 
#17
Even if the theory of evolution is true, is there a higher purpose in life? (If yes, elaborate in detail if you can. If no, give reasons as to why this is not possible at all.)
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Evolution theory dispenses completely with the necessity to believe in a higher purpose, or even the notion that there is some long term goal that we are all evolving towards. Evolution just happens - species either flourish and survive, or perish and become extinct. Species will flourish and survive only if they can find a way of fitting in to the environment in which they exist. Once that environment becomes hostile, then they must adapt or else they will die.

What would be the point of having a pre-ordained 'higher purpose'? This implies that we and every other living creature is currently somehow a 'work-in-progress'... not quite right yet... a bit imperfect... but not quite right for what? Most living things are perfectly suited to their environments right now. So perfect infact that people sometimes mistakenly see this as evidence of intelligent design. But the amazing properties that allow bats to use sonar, or allow stick insects to look exactly like the branches of the trees they live in, are a result of those creatures adapting to their environments, and not the other way around. Bats don't live in caves because they have sonar. They have sonar because they live in caves. There are so many examples of this sort of thing, you just have to look around you...

#17
And is there any type of higher being in existence? (If yes, elaborate in detail if you can. If no, give reasons as to why this is not possible at all as well.)
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To me it's a uniquely human conceit that we think that we are the 'ultimate' beings, and that somehow the properties of humankind are extraordinarily supreme. Apart from our intellegence, we are not really that special at all. There is an almost inexhaustable supply of examples of how humans are physically inferior to other animals. We may be superior in the respect that we are arguably the most intellegent beings on the Earth, but that's about it.

There is a huge and important different between being the dominant species in any given arena and being the 'ultimate' species... there is absolutely nothing 'ultimate' about the human race.
 
#17
Question time again.

Even if the theory of evolution is true, is there a higher purpose in life? (If yes, elaborate in detail if you can. If no, give reasons as to why this is not possible at all.)
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Higher than what? Being human is a damn good purpose and if we just concentrated on that, acting like human beings a bit more, we could improve the living standards of about 80% of the world's population.

#17
And is there any type of higher being in existence? (If yes, elaborate in detail if you can. If no, give reasons as to why this is not possible at all as well.)
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No, and if one did exist then it could have had absolutely no influence on our lives or there would be evidence to prove it.
 
I'll answer this; if you believe the Bible to be final authority and fully inspired, no more than 10,000 years old. That being also if you take the 6 days of creation to be 6 literal days and not 6 periods of time. The argument here then goes from evolution vs. creation to if the Bible really is God's inspired word if so desired.

(Illustration: If I take your hand and write your name on the wall, who wrote it? I did, but I used you to write it. God used fallible humans to write an infallible book.)
 
#17
The argument here then goes from evolution vs. creation to if the Bible really is God's inspired word if so desired.

(Illustration: If I take your hand and write your name on the wall, who wrote it? I did, but I used you to write it. God used fallible humans to write an infallible book.)
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I know it's not good form to quote yourself but...

JacktheHat
That would make the bible, and therefore all forms of Christianity, a fallacy...
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JacktheHat
I know it's not good form to quote yourself but...
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Hmm...so you think it's impossible for the bible to be true because it was physically written by man?
 
Swift
Hmm...so you think it's impossible for the bible to be true because it was physically written by man?
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When did I say that, Swift?

Keep up, old boy.

My opinion is that it's not possible for the bible to be true because it's nonsensical.

Other people have said the bible is the true, unadulterated word of God.

17 is saying that it might not be exactly unadulterated.

In response to that I am claiming that if that's the case then Christianity is a fallacy.
 
#17
God used fallible humans to write an infallible book
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Not according to the catholic church -

Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible

Sorry, I saw that on Fark and IMMEDIATELY thought of this thread even though I haven't been on GTP for a while :)

On the other hand, I believe that the bible is "inspired poetry" and folk-tales; and I don't think you have to throw the baby out with the bath water. Just because some things aren't historically accurate doesn't mean that you cannot appreciate the teachings the bible sets out, and pay attention to the 90% that is good and makes sense

That being said, creation didn't happen. period. full stop.
 
That being said, creation didn't happen. period. full stop.
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Appropriate way to leave the thread!!

Its really starting to go round in circles now. This is the kind of debate where you really take sides. There doesn't seem to be ANYONE who has changed their views, as the whole nature of a belief system is that... its a belief system. Nothing can change that, its totally illogical, so rational argument and evidence just won't work at all, sadly. The power of religion is so strong, it can get people to blow themselves up in Bali and kill people. [Sarcasm]👍[/SARCASM]

I think all the evolutionists are massively underestimating the sheer dense rock-like nature of religious belief. We won't get anywhere, its pointless.

I love this debate its like:

Creationist: God did it, of course, whats this evil science (galileo, Illuminati era etc), I don't understand it at all. It doesn't talk to me with comforting colourful tall stories, I'd have to actually THINK FOR MYSELF! Oh the HORROR! Lets put anyone who practises science and goes against the church under house arrest!!!
Evolutionist: Look at all this evidence, evolution has been proven to happen! Have an open mind!
Creationist: No!!! You have an open mind (hugely hypocritically)!! Have an open mind that MY VIEWS and ONLY MY VIEWS are RIGHT!!!

👍 Oh yeah, I can see us agreeing soon!
 
What's up A6M5 - of course I remember you

School went well - so well that they haven't kicked me out yet (which means I still have to do craploads of work and not get paid squat)

But, this is kinda going off topic. I'll just finish by agreeing with James and direct everyone to watch Dogma - "it's better to have ideas than beliefs, because you can change ideas"
 
James2097
Appropriate way to leave the thread!!

Its really starting to go round in circles now. This is the kind of debate where you really take sides. There doesn't seem to be ANYONE who has changed their views, as the whole nature of a belief system is that... its a belief system. Nothing can change that, its totally illogical, so rational argument and evidence just won't work at all, sadly. The power of religion is so strong, it can get people to blow themselves up in Bali and kill people. [Sarcasm]👍[/SARCASM]

I think all the evolutionists are massively underestimating the sheer dense rock-like nature of religious belief. We won't get anywhere, its pointless.

I love this debate its like:

Creationist: God did it, of course, whats this evil science (galileo, Illuminati era etc), I don't understand it at all. It doesn't talk to me with comforting colourful tall stories, I'd have to actually THINK FOR MYSELF! Oh the HORROR! Lets put anyone who practises science and goes against the church under house arrest!!!
Evolutionist: Look at all this evidence, evolution has been proven to happen! Have an open mind!
Creationist: No!!! You have an open mind (hugely hypocritically)!! Have an open mind that MY VIEWS and ONLY MY VIEWS are RIGHT!!!

👍 Oh yeah, I can see us agreeing soon!
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:lol: It's not all bad. Many realized this "cycle" and left the thread. I peek in here and there, but usually don't bother to most of the time. It's been very educational for me!

Minnesota01R6
But, this is kinda going off topic. I'll just finish by agreeing with James and direct everyone to watch Dogma - "it's better to have ideas than beliefs, because you can change ideas"
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My favorite Kevin Smith flick! :D
 
Zardoz
Meanwhile, we've just opened Page 100 of this thread.

Has anybody's opinion of anything been changed in even the slightest way by all this sound and fury? Has anybody's views been altered to any degree?
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Seems like so long ago, doesn't it? And, of course, the answer is still a resounding "no".

It really is time to put this baby to bed, I'd say...
 
Zardoz
Seems like so long ago, doesn't it? And, of course, the answer is still a resounding "no".

It really is time to put this baby to bed, I'd say...
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Honestly, I'm just bored with the "You're still stupid enough to believe in Adam and Eve?" attitude.

Since it's beyond obvious that undeniable proof of either train of thought is a veritable impossibility, why call anyone else's view on the subject stupid or juvenile?
 
Swift
Honestly, I'm just bored with the "You're still stupid enough to believe in Adam and Eve?" attitude.

Since it's beyond obvious that undeniable proof of either train of thought is a veritable impossibility, why call anyone else's view on the subject stupid or juvenile?
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It's just how we all look at each other. Everyone else is a bumbling idiot unless they agree with you. Not everyone is so open minded it seems, and with this jigantic thread, we can see how.

EDIT

For the record, when I say "everyone else" and "you", it isn't referring to anyone particular. It's directed at everyone.
 
sicbeing
For the record, when I say "everyone else" and "you", it isn't referring to anyone particular. It's directed at everyone.
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Yep, I understand.

This would be a good place to practice what tolerance actually is. Nothing wrong with having a different view, but when you put others down for thinking something else, that's just bad.
 
This thread has changed my views a bit on everything, but not exactly leaning more one way than another than I did before, it just changed my views by adding a little knowledge to my little noggin. I now know how certain people act, how certain people think, and how differently everyone else thinks from one another.

And uh, /speech off.
 
Swift
Since it's beyond obvious that undeniable proof of either train of thought is a veritable impossibility, why call anyone else's view on the subject stupid or juvenile?
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The whole push of the evolutionist argument is that there IS undeniable evidence that evolution occurs. Thats why to me, its seriously a one sided debate. One side makes perfect sense, the other doesn't make any sense, or even present any argument thats vaguely credible, or explains the timeline of events etc (somthing I requested from a creationist point of view a while back - to no avail. Of course no one did a timeline, for the simple reason that attempting it would in effect disprove creationism in itself). That creationists continuously ignore how blase (how do I do a little line over the "e"?) they are treating rock hard evidence that goes directly against what they believe, it can sometimes make certain people (who understand the evolutionary point of view, and undeniable scientific truth it carries) feel creationists are being well... stupid. Not stupid as in general intelligence, but just stupid as in refusing to see the evidence with the WEIGHT that it truly carries, continually brushing off (the truth) with nothing more than a hand over the ear and a raise of the nose.
 

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