Creation vs. Evolution

  • Thread starter ledhed
  • 9,687 comments
  • 446,142 views
Zardoz
The rest of the world's low opinion of the general level of intelligence in the U.S. is quite justified. This article is about how much progress the proponents of creationism are making as they attack the foundations of science itself:

http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/47366/page/1#47569
Click to expand...

Creationism was not invented in America, nor are creationist Americans alone in its support (and subsequent attack on science).

Do not associate religion with American.
 
danoff
Creationism was not invented in America, nor are creationist Americans alone in its support (and subsequent attack on science).

Do not associate religion with American.
Click to expand...

The worlds opinion of the intelligence of Americans...

Well, like Danoff said it's not an American idea.

Also, I don't care what the rest of the world thinks about our intelligence level. I mean we invented(by we I mean Americans) so many modern technologies or the basis for those technologies that it's not funny. Let the world think we're dumb. While they talk on the PHONE, work on there COMPUTERS and read using LIGHTBULBS.
 
Don't forget to get fat off our FAST FOOD, watch our father's die because of TOBACCO (I'm not even sure on that one lol) and get amazingly lazy because of our TV's and VIEDO GAMES?!

(EDIT)

Why won't this thread die?
 
sicbeing
...Why won't this thread die?
Click to expand...

Because:

...In at least 40 states, ID is being considered as an addition to the required science curriculum in public schools. This year a poll by the National Science Teachers Association showed that one-third of science teachers feel pressured to include ID, creationism or other "nonscientific alternatives" in their science classrooms. Some teachers are so intimidated by the threat of parental complaints that they skip material dealing with evolution in their classes.

And on August 5, President George W. Bush endorsed the teaching of intelligent design in science classes so that students learn "both sides of the debate."...
 
sicbeing
Don't forget to get fat off our FAST FOOD, watch our father's die because of TOBACCO (I'm not even sure on that one lol) and get amazingly lazy because of our TV's and VIEDO GAMES?!
Click to expand...

See? We're good at recreation too!
 
Swift
Let the world think we're dumb. While they talk on the PHONE
Click to expand...

Invented by Italian Antonio Meucci, then the idea was stolen (so it is claimed) from the filed US patent by Scottish patents clerk Alexander Graham Bell.

Though both men lived in the US at the time and the patents were filed with the US patent office. Bell later emigrated to Canada, I believe.

Swift
work on there COMPUTERS
Click to expand...

Invented by Englishman Charles Babbage.

Swift
and read using LIGHTBULBS.
Click to expand...

Invented by either Englishman Joseph Swan or Canadians Henry Woodward and Mathew Evans.
 
Thanks for the corrections famine. I'll have to reverse all of those to say that we improved on said ideas. Either way, no nationality is "smarter" then another.
 
The court case is still going on in Harrisburg . So far no good evidence to support ID being taught in schools has been produced...in fact everyone is still waiting for it to appear ...like a miracle or something .. :)
 
The funny thing is, it's only in America that we're having this debate. I've never been to a Catholic school where we were taught that "God created the world" in SCIENCE class... that was always reserved for Religion 101.

As for "Stupid Americans". I'd say it's more like people being brought up inside westernized educational systems are becoming dumber... not just Americans. There's a fundamental breakdown in education somewhere, and the increasingly huge amount of information available to kids nowadays is making it difficult for them to filter "useful" from "useless" information. Political pressures are watering down the curriculum EVERYWHERE with insertions that are both religious and political in motive and nature.

Add to this the insane obsession modern western philosophy has with giving equal credence to ALL POINTS OF VIEW. I'm not talking about grad school philosophers, but the man on the street. In effect: "We should listen to what he has to say, even if we think he is crazy, because we have to be tolerant of other cultures and viewpoints..."

This leads to a situation in which only the most zealous, fanatical and close-minded individuals get heard, and everyone else just keeps their mouths shut.

Heh... just read the American Scientist article... okay, so American students ARE getting dumber... poor kids. :(
 
I'd like to point out some of the massive generalizations here that are whitewashed over America without regard for some of the actualities.
niky
The funny thing is, it's only in America that we're having this debate. I've never been to a Catholic school where we were taught that "God created the world" in SCIENCE class... that was always reserved for Religion 101.
Click to expand...
I went to a variety of schools in America, some public, some private. In all schools I was taught the biological theory of evolution in the science curriculum, and I was taught Creationism in the social studies curriculum, as a comparison between creation myths of various world cultures. Never was there the slightest indication of advancing Creationism in any scientific setting at all.

The fact is that despite the hype Creationism is not a maojor danger to science curricula across the country; it is a threat, particularly in localized areas, but not an imminent danger to all American students.
As for "Stupid Americans". I'd say it's more like people being brought up inside westernized educational systems are becoming dumber... not just Americans. There's a fundamental breakdown in education somewhere, and the increasingly huge amount of information available to kids nowadays is making it difficult for them to filter "useful" from "useless" information.
Click to expand...
I'm glad to see you properly distributing the focus to the whole Western world, not just "dumb Americans".
Political pressures are watering down the curriculum EVERYWHERE with insertions that are both religious and political in motive and nature.
Click to expand...
Heh... just read the American Scientist article... okay, so American students ARE getting dumber... poor kids. :(
Click to expand...
Actually, both my kids go to public schools that have a strong focus academic excellence. There is little effort being made to water down the curriculum. On the contrary, there is strong effort being made to improve the depth and quality of their education. I'd put my 8th grader up against any 8th grader in the world with no worry. She's had an integrated reading/writing/history/social studies curriculum for 4 years; she's doing advanced pre-calc math; she's had a lot of science; and she's had language courses in Spanish, French, and Italian. And she is 100% a product of the American public school system.
 
I have had both my children in public school . I myself went to both public and private schools and value my time in public school beyond measure. School is what you make of it ...thats for both student and parent , if the parents are buttmunch idiots it makes it hard for the students even if they are little Einsteins .
 
@Duke: I stand corrected then (on educational quality)... but the fact that there's an institute DEDICATED to advancing ID in the science curriculum is worrying. If Bush actually did mention it... that's scary.

Kids in our (i.e.: Philippines) public and private schools are getting worse, though... and we're based on a Western system. Of course, part of the deterioration is our fault.

I'm pretty sure if you raise your kids right, they'll be good if put up against almost any student from around the world, but the general trending in the US is worrying. You guys have the biggest budget and best equipment, as well as the most comprehensively developed curriculum, but if scores in comparison to other developed countries start dropping, it means that the impetus for students to excel is not there.

I have no doubt there are smart kids in America, it's the fate of the dumb ones that worries me. A good education can make smart kids out of dumb ones. If they stay dumb, there's something wrong there.

The thing is, schools around the world are suffering from the encroachment of politics and religion into academics. Sex education in our country is still in the stone age because of Catholic influences, and I dread to think of what it's like in Muslim countries. History books are a subject of great debate in countries like Japan, Germany and the US. I was shocked to learn that my own grandmother was a POW inside the continental US during WWII, as Japanese immigrants were herded into concentration camps during the war (while Germans and Italians weren't... go figure). You would never have seen that in the history books when I was a kid.
 
niky
@Duke: I stand corrected then (on educational quality)... but the fact that there's an institute DEDICATED to advancing ID in the science curriculum is worrying. If Bush actually did mention it... that's scary.

Kids in our (i.e.: Philippines) public and private schools are getting worse, though... and we're based on a Western system. Of course, part of the deterioration is our fault.

I'm pretty sure if you raise your kids right, they'll be good if put up against almost any student from around the world, but the general trending in the US is worrying. You guys have the biggest budget and best equipment, as well as the most comprehensively developed curriculum, but if scores in comparison to other developed countries start dropping, it means that the impetus for students to excel is not there.

I have no doubt there are smart kids in America, it's the fate of the dumb ones that worries me. A good education can make smart kids out of dumb ones. If they stay dumb, there's something wrong there.

The thing is, schools around the world are suffering from the encroachment of politics and religion into academics. Sex education in our country is still in the stone age because of Catholic influences, and I dread to think of what it's like in Muslim countries. History books are a subject of great debate in countries like Japan, Germany and the US. I was shocked to learn that my own grandmother was a POW inside the continental US during WWII, as Japanese immigrants were herded into concentration camps during the war (while Germans and Italians weren't... go figure). You would never have seen that in the history books when I was a kid.
Click to expand...

Actually they threw some Italians into the camps. No matter its still one of the most disgracefull things done by this government .

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/02rights/intern01.htm

this will give you an idea of the thinking of the time..... its scary how racist the government could be ...

http://www.sfmuseum.org/war/evactxt.html


But, while the treatment of Japanese Americans has finally received the attention it deserves by the public, most Americans have never even heard about the approximately 11,000 ethnic Germans living in America, the 3,200 ethnic Italians living in America, or the scores of ethnic Bulgarians, Hungarians, Rumanians or other European Americans who were taken from their homes and placed into internment camps during World War II. Hundreds remained interned for up to three years after the war was over.
Click to expand...

http://www.foitimes.com/internment/FeingoldS1356.htm
 
niky
...The thing is, schools around the world are suffering from the encroachment of politics and religion into academics...
Click to expand...

Of course. I'm just pointing out how widespread it has become here in the U.S. Few understand the extent of the efforts being made by creationists to somehow turn their evangelical Christian religious beliefs into pseudo-science.

Do not interpret the effort as anything other than an attack on the concept of "science" itself. This is an attempt to turn back the clock. These people wish to make us think like people did in the Middle Ages. They long for a return to Medieval times and ways. They are very much aware that there is no scientific basis for their so-called "theory", so they are attempting to invalidate the scientific process itself.

Science is the messenger that is bringing them bad news about their belief. They can't refute the bad news, so they are attempting to kill the messenger.
 
Zardoz
Of course. I'm just pointing out how widespread it has become here in the U.S. Few understand the extent of the efforts being made by creationists to somehow turn their evangelical Christian religious beliefs into pseudo-science.

Do not interpret the effort as anything other than an attack on the concept of "science" itself. This is an attempt to turn back the clock. These people wish to make us think like people did in the Middle Ages. They long for a return to Medieval times and ways. They are very much aware that there is no scientific basis for their so-called "theory", so they are attempting to invalidate the scientific process itself.

Science is the messenger that is bringing them bad news about their belief. They can't refute the bad news, so they are attempting to kill the messenger.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but that's a very generalized and stereotypical statement. Especially since there are many scientists that are christians that have contributed to the scientific community.

I for one do not want to go back to the way things were hundreds of years ago. I'd be a slave! :nervous: We have modern technologies that give people new chances for life that didn't exist even a generation ago. What person that loves people(christians) wouldn't appreciate that? I'm not saying that "All" christians love technology and science since it is a clear that some don't. But to say we want to go back to the dark ages because I would like to see ID taught in schools as well as evolution is just plain rude.

Oh, and if I attack science itself, I guess I plan to die because argicutlure without science really wouldn't work to well. Even if I gave up all my modern tech. Even Amish use tools and such, that's science.

Anyway, my main challenge with evolution is not that it's taught but that it's taught as fact in PUBLIC schools. In private schools that's on them. But in public schools I believe children should be given options when it comes to things that cannot be proven as absolute by science.
 
Zardoz
Like I was saying...:

Kill that messenger!

This is not a joke. Real damage is being done.
Click to expand...

You weren't the messenger. You were giving your thoughts and I rebutted them. I also gave you my take on science and christianity.

Thanks for the article, but that doesn't justifiy what you think about people that want ID taught in public schools.
 
Zardoz
I never said I was:
Click to expand...

Heh heh, Ok. Well evolution does NOT talk about the beginning of life. I just talks about how life got to where it is now. So, as a total theory for the existance of life on our earth it's incomplete.

Anyway, science is by no means bad. But even evolutionist say that they don't have the whole thing figured out quite yet. So we should it be the only "theory" taught to children and young people about their existance?
 
Swift
Heh heh, Ok. Well evolution does NOT talk about the beginning of life. I just talks about how life got to where it is now. So, as a total theory for the existance of life on our earth it's incomplete.

Anyway, science is by no means bad. But even evolutionist say that they don't have the whole thing figured out quite yet. So we should it be the only "theory" taught to children and young people about their existance?
Click to expand...

Is evolution still being taught in public schools today as a 'origin' theory for our existence? If yes, at what grade levels is it being taught?

Creation is just as possible, and just as unbelievable as evolution being a random cataclysmic event resulting in the 'creation' of our universe and everything in it.
 
Pako
Is evolution still being taught in public schools today as a 'origin' theory for our existence? If yes, at what grade levels is it being taught?

Creation is just as possible, and just as unbelievable as evolution being a random cataclysmic event resulting in the 'creation' of our universe and everything in it.
Click to expand...

But evolution is based on empirical evidence and the scientific method whereas "creation" is based on mythology from a time when maps used to say "here there be monsters" or "below this latitude people melt".

Evolution is based on the natural mathematical propagation of genetic information and fossil data. The big bang is based on the natural mathematical propagation of the motion of stars and galaxies - mathematics that we understand rather well at this point due to empirical observation. Creation is based on a fundamental refusal to examine things without preconceived notions.

Pako, evolution is scientific - and necessary to be taught from a point of view of students entering the scientific community.

However, I too have a problem with evolution being taught in public schools. My problem with it is that public schools should not exist. This dilemma - what to teach in public schools - should not exist because public schools should not exist. Your problem is that your children are being indoctrinated in a different way than you would indoctrinate them, and it's being done with your tax dollars.

That's not right. The right thing to have happen is for public schools to be eliminated. Then nobody's kids but your own are being taught ANYTHING with your money. That way, you can send your kids to whatever school you choose... and they will teach your kid whatever it is you want your kid to learn.
 
danoff
However, I too have a problem with evolution being taught in public schools. My problem with it is that public schools should not exist. This dilemma - what to teach in public schools - should not exist because public schools should not exist. Your problem is that your children are being indoctrinated in a different way than you would indoctrinate them, and it's being done with your tax dollars.
Click to expand...

I think that sums up over 100 pages of ping pong.
 
danoff
...The right thing to have happen is for public schools to be eliminated...
Click to expand...

Of course, along with all police agencies, fire departments, public sanitation systems, water supplies, public health agencies, public streets and highways, power companies, and all governments in general.

Just look at Somalia. They've eliminated all of the above, and look how well its working out.
 
Zardoz
Of course, along with all police agencies, fire departments, public sanitation systems, water supplies, public health agencies, public streets and highways, power companies, and all governments in general.

Just look at Somalia. They've eliminated all of the above, and look how well its working out.
Click to expand...

No, not along with police, fire, sanitation, streets or by any means all government.

But yes, public schools should be eliminated. If you want to argue about it, argue that specific point... and make an effort. You cannot deny that the whole debate about what our children should be taught would go away if we only had to fund the schools we personally chose.
 
All great economic powers have well-established traditions of strong public education. All impoverished, backwards, underdeveloped nations have little or no public education.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter, danoff. The idea of abolishing public education is so ludicrous it doesn't deserve any further comment.
 
Zardoz
That's all I'm going to say on the matter, danoff. The idea of abolishing public education is so ludicrous it doesn't deserve any further comment.
Click to expand...

Actually, it does. But take it to the appropriate thread.
 

Similar threads

Chris30
My Mom Has Cancer! (Need Advice)!
2 3
Replies
64
Views
5K
Chris30
Chris30
Vince_Fiero
Creation of wealth, the ideal distribution
2
Replies
57
Views
3K
Vince_Fiero
Vince_Fiero
HyperState
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution question
Replies
5
Views
4K
Magog
Magog
SYLVERIS
  • Locked
OFFLINE PLAYERS VS ONLINE RACERS, OFFLINE PLAYERS WON !
Replies
1
Views
1K
daan
daan
GranTurNismo
The Future of Joe Biden
2
Replies
38
Views
2K
Imari
Imari

Latest Posts

Back