Current PSN outage: Don't abuse or we lose this thread.
- Thread starter BWX
- 2,574 comments
- 184,278 views
- 1,477
- New York, U.S.A
- XxOnLySBz4mExX
Yes no one says that if people are pirating games that they shouldn't be pursued by the law as that is illegal.
That's not what happened though.
Did Geohot pirate games? No
Did Geohot allow the use of pirated games through his hack ? No.
Did Geohot's video show how to pirate games or play pirated games? No.
So in the interest of ' Free flow of information ' - since this is what this is all about in the 1st place, why is right for Sony to have the power to remove information enitrely from the internet?, the last bastion for freedom of information. That's all i wanna know, and if it's not right for them to do so what is gonna be done about it? Nothing was done. So now someone has taken it into their own hands, good on them. I can live without PSN for few weeks to make a point, nothing else was gonna be done otherwise. I know an injustice when i see one, whether it affects me or not.
I notice a lot of you say it isn't right, it isn't fair, including jjiasil. You even said it was distasteful. So why should Sony go un-punished? Because Sony action's over the last year haven't really affected you? There are others in the world who it has, whether you like those people or not is irrelevant, there was an injustice done and some people have chosen to fight for that injustice rather than just accept it and move on.
If you do just accept it then Sony and other corporations think they can get away with anything.
. -
Some of you think jjiasil post was well thought out, and i agree there. But open your mind to other thoughts and read the above post .
And this is a forum is it not?, if some of you spectator's can't handle reading opinions without thinking people are wanting to murder each other i suggest you stick to the 'news' section.
It's not about willy waving and showing who has the most info, a forum is a place to discuss idea's, whether other's agree with them or not. This is what a forum is for.
If you want news, go to the news section. Or one of the thousand other website's that has news on the PSN outage, but this is a forum and idea's will be discussed.
Forum is just like the Internet - Once you have all the idea's from many different view points you can read them yourself, get informed and then think.... make your own informed decision about what you think is right and wrong. If everyone just is a sheep and agree's with each other then why have a forum in the first place ? There has to be opposite opinions for it to work.
Edit : jjaisli May have spelt your name wrong, my apologies. It's a mouthful even when writing it
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If your PSN was taken away for good, or a video was completely removed from all existence showing you how to get PSN back after it had been taken away, would you just sit there and do nothing?
What crack are they on you ask?
I'd say there on the " I want what i paid for crack "
Or that other crack floating around " I want to be able to share information freely crack " - thats the good stuff.
They already had warned of a long sustained attack like nothing they had witnessed before - Sony chose to ignore them, good on them , look what's happening now.
They can't sit back and ignore any longer.
P.S I'm as gutted as any of you not to have the PSN, Bad company 2 is Multiplayer and huge component of GT5 is online racing, i have neither at the moment and every day i come home from work i say " for 🤬 sake " when i realise PSN still isn't up. But i can put myself in other's shoes and see where they are coming from.
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- 3,587
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- SuperDave512
If this newly announced attack comes to pass, and the attackers do what they apparently say they will do - publicly release all the personal information they steal - will you still be trying to convince us that it's all in the name of defending our freedom; that it's all for our own good; that the attackers are the only people in the world who know what's best for us?
Or will you finally admit that these attacks are the work of cyber-criminals who have no regard for anything or anyone but themselves? If these people are doing all this in defence of GeoHot, OtherOS, custom firmware, and the like, I think I can see why Sony acted to put a stop to it all.
- 385
- aland18
nah, its not. realized it was harsh after I submitted but I did have trouble reading your post.
If it makes you feel better, my family traces back to Canada, the ones the British kicked out - by the way, no worries British GTplanet folks, I know its not your fault!
- 3,587
Freedom of information is all well and good. These hackers aren't doing any of us any favors. And not to mention many of Sony's workers probably were impacted by the recent earthquake and tsunami, and need their jobs. These hackers are like digital timothy mcveighs, doing tremendously more damage than good.
You think Sony's going to cave in to these guys? Not a chance. They're only blowing stuff up without the effect they intended.
You think Sony's going to cave in to these guys? Not a chance. They're only blowing stuff up without the effect they intended.
If personal information is released to the public like names and addresse's then i won't be worried.That;s just a 'look what we can do thing'. That is all easily findable anyway.
If they release credit card info that is a different story and would change my mind immediately as that is criminal. That's hypothetical though, look at all the hysteria about credit card info but not 1 report of a mis-used credit card through all of this.
It's called public relations, if Sony make you think this was a criminal attack and that they were only after your personal info then who are you going to side with? Don't be blind man.
If Sony says, all these people did was use re-bug firmware to get into developer accounts and have free download access to the PSN and because of that we are shutting the PSN down for weeks, it's not such a strong case anymore is it. It becomes a case of well Sony you should have thought of that before you implemented the PSN Store the way you did.
But instead we have people in hysteria worried about credit cards, and personal info. Most of that personal info they don't realise is so easily findable anyways that it's laughable.
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- 2,980
- The Ramapo Mountains
- jjaisli
We have freedom of speech. But we do not have the freedom to shout "Fire!" in a crowded movie theater if there is no fire. Sometimes, it just takes a little common sense.
Sony broke their agreement. Or such as existed in their literature, advertisements and EULA until about a year ago(?). The other o/s feature no longer works. They didn't do this because they woke up one day and decided to. They were forced to make a decision And as Famine pointed out, making this decision even had financial consequences for them in certain regions.
There is a very real possibility, if Sony had not removed the other OS feature, that they would have spent undue resources creating patch after patch to plug further unseen holes, or holes not yet conceived. In fact, I would say it's almost a given. Sony has many people to answer to. (1) It's shareholders, who don't want to see them waste resources and money. (2) It's vendors who would have raised hell if more holes opened, likely leading to piracy. (3) End users who don't like downloading huge updates every fortnight. (4) the bad press headlines like "Another PS3 security flaw discovered". (And no, the irony of the current situation is not lost on me). They made a decision. Not a popular one. But one they thought best. They didn't murder somebody or torture anybody or take away basic human rights. They're a company that makes video games. Nobody forces people to buy a PS3 or use the PSN.
Let's keep things in perspective. What these cyber pirates are doing is disgraceful and there is >NO< excuse for it. None.
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- 385
- aland18
If you all remember, this is a similar situation to when Napster first came out. I was in college at the time and pumped about it. When the powers that be shut it down I was quite upset but as I've gotten older, I've come to realize that it was better in the long run.
Seems a loose parallel to the Sony O/S situation
Seems a loose parallel to the Sony O/S situation
- 3,035
- Kingston, Jamaica
- pj-gm
- PJwasHere876
That's awfully extreme. They've been professionally hacked and are still unsure of whether data was stolen or not. They are doing a great job, given the very delicate situation they are in. Plus, they're rewarding us for our patience with a whole ton of free content.
Have fun spending $50 a year if you choose to switch. Btu imagine how silly you would feel if XBL were to ever go down in a similar way for a similar amount of time.
I take alll your points on board, but don't you think it was Sony's responsibility as a Multi-Billion dollar company to ensure a feature they added isn't going to be exploited in a way they don't approve of?
Can they just be lazy an implement a feature ( Other OS), sell it and market it as having this feature, and then 1 year later when they realise they didn't implement it well, remove it rather than fix.
Yes i understand constantly fixing and patching may not have been the best option financially or just logically.
If you sell me a 3D tv that is spose to only work with glasses and i discover a way to view the images without the $300 glasses, can you ask for your tv back? Or disable my TV because i found a way to use it that you didn't intend for ?
Not the best example but my point is, it's too late you have already sold me the Tv with the 3D feature, you can't now take that 3D part away because i can view it without your glasses.
Sony sold me a PS3 with Other OS, someone found a way to use that for other purpose's than what sony wanted, is that my fault? Should i be punished by having my feature i paid for taken away or FORCED to choose between Linux and PSN, what kind of choice is that? That's not a choice , that's called a forced decision.
No of course not! It's sony problem for advertising it to me with that feature. The designed the feature, it's their responsibility to make sure it can't be exploited for means they didn't intend.
I'm not the one getting billions of dollars of revenue stream to ensure there products have been designed correctly, that is their job.
You can't make billions of dollars and then take shortcuts with features and then those shortcuts are discovered say "HAHA you already bought your console, but we are taking your feature away, what are you gonna do about it? I suggest that someone has had enough of this crap from Sony and has done something about it. Hats off to you sir as long as you stay out of my bank account lol.
Time to hit some Guitar Hero anyway haha.
Enjoy the discussion with you.
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- 50
- SuperDave512
- 2,980
- The Ramapo Mountains
- jjaisli
Likewise. But you know, if you want to look at it that way, it wasn't Sony who really killed other OS. Like the kid on the playground who just won't stop throwing rocks onto the road at passing cars, somebody who refused to play by the rules, ruined it for everybody.
Having the other OS feature is obviously something Sony regretted. Because they realized much too late that having one of their devices running Linux opened them up to problems which they never imagined.
As I said in an earlier post, their real mistake was being naive enough to believe it wouldn't/couldn't/shouldn't be an issue.
All very good points here guys, nice and civilized. I have XBL and PSN, and am dearly missing PSN, mainly just for GT5, but nonetheless I wish I had it. I don't really care why its down, its just down. Wether any info is compromised we'll find out in the future. I'm disappointing with Sony, but they are new to this and they can only learn from these mistakes. This should make the PSN better in the end I hope. I was very happy with it compared to my XBL. Not the same thing in some regards (I enjoy my XBL), but fairly full of features for no money. I also like the PLUS they added, so Sony is advancing, after this I hope that can continue and remain optimistic.
- 23,800
- Philippines
Giving someone the keys to the gun rack and telling them you can't use the guns to kill people doesn't absolve you of culpability. Although, again, I agree that Sony doesn't have a legal case against GeoHot.
The fact that he published the root key, which other programmers can use to hack the system to allow the use of pirated games even on updated Sony PS3s (though the point is moot, because I've seen people advertise hacked Sonys with newer games like GT5 loaded on the HDDs).
The internet and information is not free.
Let's not kid ourselves. Service providers and hosts do not index and will not allow certain content that is illegal. Want Real Lolita Porn? Good luck finding it posted on a public website. Want to know how to make a nuclear bomb in-depth? Even better.
It surprises and sickens me when a bunch of hackers get in a huff when a corporation does the same to try to protect the rights and interests of its stakeholders and third-party developers. I know Cory Doctorow has argued for the free flow and share of information... but that sharing of information has to be voluntary.
Software becomes shareware becomes freeware only through the wishes of the author of the software. Not anyone else's. Any other system that says otherwise is a fascist dictatorship that tramples on people's rights.
Repeat after me: The key to a future of free information is through voluntary contribution by the parties involved. Anything else is stealing.
I say that Sony doesn't have a legal case, but I believe it's perfectly immoral for someone else to rip off their code and publish it for free.
Sony shouldn't be absolved of anything they did wrong. The question is the level of the wrong-doing and what just recompense is. And that's not something that a bunch of renegade hackers who think they have the right to have anything they want for free to decide.
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- SuperDave512
If one feels so strongly about this issue, gather together others whose enjoyment of the PS3 has been destroyed by the inability to run Linux, and those who think Sony screwed them by blocking their thefts from the PSN store and seek legal redress from Sony. Go for your day in court; use the system to fight the system. That's how it's done in a society governed by laws.
Here's an analogy for you: someone breaks into a bank vault and loots some of the safety deposit boxes, and steals other people's personal property. Would you be defending the thieves; claiming that they were freedom fighters; and that banks, all banks, are tools of the system trying to oppress those who just want free loot?
By the way, if you could mod your 3D TV to show 3D without glasses, you could likely sell that idea to Sony for big bucks. The glasses are a big factor in the slow adoption of 3D TV.
Edited to add:
Let me expand on that. You patent that method, and sell it to Sony, and get a royalty for every TV they sell with that system. Someone figures out how to steal your idea, jailbreak the TV, and implement your patented solution without compensation to you. Oh, and they publicize it so the whole world knows it.
Who's getting hurt here? Sony? A bit; they're still selling non-3D TVs; they only lose the markup on your 3D device. You/ Yup, you're screwed, just about no one is paying you anything.
Would you still be on the pirate's side then?
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- 126
I'm not up with all this, can you answer me this, did this open the door for piracy though?
5% or less then why do you care too? What they did is affecting a lot more than that.
Ok this shows us where you are coming from, i apologise i now can understand your stance. You responded to me in one post saying it doesn't effect me so why am i worried about it, and in another its only less than 5% that will pirate games so won't kill the industry so don't worry about it. Now you say the actions anon are taking is justified because what Sony did affects how many people? Whould it be less than 5%? If so you should take your advice and not worry about it. Double standards, you tell me to not worry about what effect a 100% but want me to worry about what affects less than 5%. It might be only 5% now but in the future if Sony hadnt have acted that 5% whould be substantially greater, and dont say its nothing to do with piracy you have all ready mention it is happening and is because of what they have done.
CodeRedR51
Premium
- 55,319
- United States
Having read all of Sony's press releases they released today, I'm 100% satisfied with what they are doing so far to take care of the problems. They are doing A-OK in my book. 👍
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- leadpaint
Yea but did the other kids who use the playground pay $600 to play there? Actually, my fat 80 cost $600 and it died so I bought a slim for $300 too. Now I have $900 invested in that playground. Should I loose my playground time after I've paid for it because someone else was throwing rocks?
So if you bought a car from the dealership and then ran over someone the dealer should have some culpability? After all they gave you the keys.
___________________
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- SuperDave512
So if you bought a car from the dealership and then ran over someone the dealer should have some culpability? After all they gave you the keys.
Actually, that is exactly the position of a frequent defender of the attackers on this thread:
No of course not! It's sony problem for advertising it to me with that feature. The designed the feature, it's their responsibility to make sure it can't be exploited for means they didn't intend.
- Simply put, yes it opened the door. But you have to remember for legal purposes that he himself didn't make the code for pirated games, other's just built on his initial work.
If you want to be informed on the issue and anyone else i suggest you watch this to the end. It's only 7mins out of your life
4min 10sec has a good question if you don't have time though. And at 4min 40sec , what can anyone say back to that?That day in court has been and gone my friend, the system didn't work. Look at the interview, even the journalist is suprised at the extent of the ruling. Allowing Sony to get IP address which is personal information which can easily identify you for anyone who even watched that video, that is ridiculous.
How can a mere company demand to know who watched information that wasn't illegal information LOL. Please think about it.
- Terrible analogy i think, why would i defend the thieves? The bank never sold them something and then took part of it away? The bank didn't demand the personal information of the thieves when they were customer's of another bank. It's a terrible analogy
I don't think so, if it only comes from the parties involved we are not getting the whole picture, not everything is too it's full potential.
Take jailbroken Ipod's and Iphone's etc They are an example.
Who's the person in the world who has spent the most time with and has the best knowledge of how the PS3 at it's very core works. George Hotz. Makes you wonder if he had any role in this outage, not directly but supplying knowledge.
And SuperDave i'm not neccasarily a 'defender', more just putting out a different point of view. I don't exactly 100% agree that the PSN or wherever they got into should have been hacked, but at the same time i realise why they did it. Let me make it clear though if it was an attack solely to get Personal Information Eg Credit Cards then i'm not behind it at all.
But at this stage it looks to be more of the typical hack " Look what we can do, we told you, listen to what we have to say"
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- leadpaint
The problem with that is my ability to run over someone with the car is well known at the time of purchase, and not something that could not be foreseen.
With the PS3 it was not known at the time of purchase that it could be exploited through the other OS. This is apples to oranges that you are comparing.
- 50
- SuperDave512
@sk0pe:
This is a quote from one of your earlier posts:
If Sony says, all these people did was use re-bug firmware to get into developer accounts and have free download access to the PSN and because of that we are shutting the PSN down for weeks, it's not such a strong case anymore is it.
You seem to have no problem with people stealing from the PSN store; I don't think there's any other way to read that.
Most of the for-pay content on the PSN store is from third parties. Sony provides the means of distributing it, collecting payment, and providing security. Sony gets part of the selling price for doing so.
Every piece of for-pay third party content stolen from the PSN store is a theft from that third party. It is their intellectual property being taken. No one has any entitlement to that content simply because the content exists.
My bank analogy is spot on, I think. The bank accepts a fee for storing and securing property belonging to third parties. Thieves have no entitlement to the property of the depositors simply by virtue of the property existing.
Whether someone is stealing grandma's heirlooms from the bank vault, or the software that her grandson is trying to make a living from...it is theft. It's wrong, and no amount of yelling "Stick it to the man!" will change that.
My advice to seek legal redress was aimed at consumers suing Sony for removal of features from the machine. If people feel strongly enough about this, they should file suit, like consumers do all the time. That is a legal avenue to getting satisfaction. I was not commenting on Sony's efforts to shut down GeoHot, et al.
For the life of me, I can't see how inconveniencing tens of millions of PSN users is really a fight for their rights. It seems to be much more about people butt-hurt about not being able to steal software lashing out, or people trying to steal information for sale on the black market.
This is a quote from one of your earlier posts:
If Sony says, all these people did was use re-bug firmware to get into developer accounts and have free download access to the PSN and because of that we are shutting the PSN down for weeks, it's not such a strong case anymore is it.
You seem to have no problem with people stealing from the PSN store; I don't think there's any other way to read that.
Most of the for-pay content on the PSN store is from third parties. Sony provides the means of distributing it, collecting payment, and providing security. Sony gets part of the selling price for doing so.
Every piece of for-pay third party content stolen from the PSN store is a theft from that third party. It is their intellectual property being taken. No one has any entitlement to that content simply because the content exists.
My bank analogy is spot on, I think. The bank accepts a fee for storing and securing property belonging to third parties. Thieves have no entitlement to the property of the depositors simply by virtue of the property existing.
Whether someone is stealing grandma's heirlooms from the bank vault, or the software that her grandson is trying to make a living from...it is theft. It's wrong, and no amount of yelling "Stick it to the man!" will change that.
My advice to seek legal redress was aimed at consumers suing Sony for removal of features from the machine. If people feel strongly enough about this, they should file suit, like consumers do all the time. That is a legal avenue to getting satisfaction. I was not commenting on Sony's efforts to shut down GeoHot, et al.
For the life of me, I can't see how inconveniencing tens of millions of PSN users is really a fight for their rights. It seems to be much more about people butt-hurt about not being able to steal software lashing out, or people trying to steal information for sale on the black market.
No there isn't any other way to read it, other than reading the sentence before it that puts it into context.
In other words your not so angry towards Sony for having to turn off the PSN if you think they did it to protect your Credit Card.If it was just to stop people downloading free DLC i don't think people would be as patient knowing Sony themselves turned the PSN off for weeks just because of that, i guarantee you people would be started to get peeved at Sony by now if that was the case, Please quote the whole sentence next time.
If this was just an attack to get your Credit Card info, why is Online gaming turned off ? Think about it
Your credit card has nothing to do with you playing online games, the people wanted to disrupt Sony, they don't want your credit card.
One person at Sony mentions " Possible credit card data stolen " and Bam hysteria and thank you to Sony for saving my info.
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- 50
- SuperDave512
Don't get me wrong; I'm not happy that the PSN is down, for whatever reason. Do I think it would have been better to build a more secure system from day one? Yup. Am I more concerned, personally, with my credit card info being stolen, than with theft from the PSN store? Yes, I am.
However, if a business - any business - is broken into and needs to lock the doors while they rebuild their security, then that's what they need to do. They don't just say "The heck with this, let 'em rob us, let's leave the doors wide open."
The whole system is shutdown because Sony couldn't (or perhaps wouldn't) leave online gaming up, while working on theft prevention separately.
