Custom VisionRacer VR3. D-box motion, Dual TH8s, Triple projection.

[superbike81]

I'm confused, the X-Sim I use is just a software program that can be used for motion as well.

Is there an actual motion simulator called X-Sim or something as well?

 

[tribolik]

I'm confused, the X-Sim I use is just a software program that can be used for motion as well.

Is there an actual motion simulator called X-Sim or something as well?

Im sorry I got confused by Mr Latte last post.

I was talking about the CXC Simulations - Motion Pro II Racing Simulator

 

[the_greeze]

The X-sim doesnt feel right to me... only the seat moves and the wheel stands still.

That's a whole other argument right there! Not for this thread though; I think poor ol' Mayaman's had enough grief! lol

I'm going for a 'seat only' motion rig and I'll post my reasons for doing so (and the real science behind it) in my own thread. But, don't hold your breath, there's a load of work for me in designing and building the additional framework to fit it all to first. 👍

Now, every one just chill the f&*k out...

 

[Mr Latte]

I'm confused, the X-Sim I use is just a software program that can be used for motion as well.

Is there an actual motion simulator called X-Sim or something as well?

I clearly stated in a past post about X-Sim and the possibility or potential of using it to output tactile effects and combine that with surround tactile and subwoofer combinations some of us on the forums have been utilising.

This was ignored/misread with a reply basically shooting down Buttkickers as he already had one installed at a time. My further reply stated he was making an unfair comparison of a single or basic model of Buttkicker to what D-Box offers. Of course this would not be anything like D-Box from a tactile performance perspective.

It is Mayaman that wrongly then went on about X-Sim as "motion sim" and it being inferior when as I said earlier that motion was not being discussed or compared on my part just trying to understand and learn about what D-Box offers in tactile to what community based solutions might with X-Sim.

The X-Sim software is open source and constantly being developed. It can also support DIY motion rigs as well. I'm sure it can do just as much as the proprietary D-Box software can do.

Again your comment wasn't even considered or properly understood I think.

I'm done with the silly questions and innuendo. D-box sucks and can't compare to other solutions. I'm a fool and D-box company kills many baby seals in the process of making their hugely overpriced stuff that isn't better than a buttkicker. How could I been such a sucker. Thanks for opening my eyes. I threw mine in the dumpster.

Oh, and for the record......D-box supports more titles directly via developers than any other solution. But who cares, it's hot garbage.

That's the reply and attitude we got back.


Others then made fun of Buttkicker and they too totally did not understand what I was referring to.
Lesson learned and I will stay clear in future.

Mayaman. Still looking forward to you going into more detail about how the tactile on the D-BOX perhaps compares to transducers. It would be nice to learn more in why it is so good and how or what control you have with it? Superbike has highlighted something I have been following for a while and one reason I've decided to go back to PC gaming. It seems X-Sim has huge potential and something I look forward to getting my teeth into come the near future.

With having control of direct "ingame effects" distrubuted over multiple tactile units, each with independant 31 band EQ 20Hz - 20Khz and individual amplification. Then to additionally utilise subwoofers in conjunction with the tactile for enchanced tactile stereo imaging within the cockpit base platform. Finishing with further user control of multiple subwoofers directly used and controlled soley for LFE range effects.

I may not have motion in mind but I think I should be well enough covered regards tactile and audio immersion to a level while experimental beyond most solutions available.

The above post hardly deserved a snub reply and further attitude that followed.
I recall Mayaman was quick at one time to point out things in greeze's old build thread. Funny when someone quizzes something in this one it becomes a major issue.



Dont want to talk anymore about it and will shut my face in future.

 

[mikemav]

Not trying to add any fuel to the fire here. I've followed both Latte's excellent triple-screen thread as well as this very informative thread from mayaman, and both of you have been complimentary of my original YouTube videos testing triple projection, Fanatec mods, etc...

Anyway, hope you guys can both enjoy what you've build/are building as well as we enjoy your contributions here. I've also contemplated going the X-Sim roll-your-own motion or advanced tacticle vs. D-box, and as I pointed out the other day I think both can have their merits, and certainly X-sim is more open and can be cheaper (if you can't get a screaming deal on a used D-Box) D-box seems to be much more plug and play and supported by the big game makers more directly.

I was hoping to look into if anyone has done an X-sim based rig but with 2-4 actuators that move the whole seat and steering wheel rig like a D-Box (vs. the static wheel and two actuators moving only the seat as is common w/ most X-Sim or Frex SCM systems.) Like the_greeze pointed out, that's a whole 'nother debate and probably not for this thread, and again I'm sure both have their merits.

However, since several folks have asked for vids in action of mayas setup (or similar), I wanted to pass along this link from VVV's racing blog testing a similar D-box setup for your information:
http://www.virtualr.net/vesaro-racing-rig-vvv-first-look

Anyway, peace and smooth driving to all, and keep enjoying your sim racing experience. Whether you're a tinkerer like me, or prefer actual seat-time over build time (a place I'd like to get to eventually), do whatever makes you happy!

 

[glowplug]

I was hoping to look into if anyone has done an X-sim based rig but with 2-4 actuators that move the whole seat and steering wheel rig like a D-Box (vs. the static wheel and two actuators moving only the seat as is common w/ most X-Sim or Frex SCM systems.) Like the_greeze pointed out, that's a whole 'nother debate and probably not for this thread, and again I'm sure both have their merits.

There is no debate as to if a steering wheel should move or not based on proprioception science. If the wheel moves it turns your racing simulator into a flight simulator where this type of roll is wanted - fact. I also completely understand why someone not educated in proprioception science would think the wheel should move.

 

[Mayaman]

The wheel doesn't really move since the entire platform moves and the wheel stays in exactly the same position in relation to your body with dbox. Fact.

 

[alanchan2002]

If the wheel moves it turns your racing simulator into a flight simulator where this type of roll is wanted - fact.

Hi glowplug,
Can you elaborate on more.

Thanks in advance

 

[tribolik]

There is no debate as to if a steering wheel should move or not based on proprioception science. If the wheel moves it turns your racing simulator into a flight simulator where this type of roll is wanted - fact. I also completely understand why someone not educated in proprioception science would think the wheel should move.

I know what you mean man, I hate when that happens so usually when I take my real car for a spin I leave the steering wheel at home so that it doesnt move much.

 

[LogiForce]

There is no debate as to if a steering wheel should move or not based on proprioception science. If the wheel moves it turns your racing simulator into a flight simulator where this type of roll is wanted - fact. I also completely understand why someone not educated in proprioception science would think the wheel should move.

Ehm... have you ever driven up a mountain or even a slope in a multi-storey car park? The entire car including its entire interiour is angled at the same angle as the slope. This is due to the fact that your seat is mounted to your bottom plate, the steering wheel column to the firewall, pedals to the firewall or bottom plate, the shifter to the tunnel in the bottom platem and your windshield to the chassis.

So everything should technically move. Seat, wheel, pedals, shifter, screen(s).

 

[the_greeze]

You can't argue with science. Well, you can on this forum apparently! lol

 

[LogiForce]

You can't argue with science. Well, you can on this forum apparently! lol

You always have to argue with the current science, cause science doesn't have to be right all the time.

Like science says that there is a god particle. I say there isn't, since they will just end up wondering what the god particle consists off and find out that there is even a smaller particle inside that. lol
Endless arguing.

 

[the_greeze]

Here's a snippet from a thread on the racedepartment forums from about a year ago (the full thread is here, if anyone's interested).

----

Q:My particular concerns were the lack of movement (these being left out) for the wheel, pedals and monitor, since they are an integral part of the driving chassis/vehicle. Is the brain fooled enough to not notice this?

A:I've read a lot of people seem to have this concern. It takes somewhat of an understanding of the human proprioceptive system. If you drive your own car around some tight corners, you'll notice that most the gravitational sensations you feel begin in the seat of your pants and stomach, and are hardly noticed in your arms or legs. In a race car, the drivers are attached tightly to the seat, and the G forces they encounter could never even begin to be translated by what their arms or legs are feeling (aka driving by the seat of your pants.) Internal organs are the primary proprioceptive cue that people use to perceive this type of motion. Its not even really fooling the brain as much as it is stimulating the exact sense that is directly responsible for feeling it.

The inner ears also have much to do with motion perception, but the abrupt and stuttering movements of a car racing sim do not use nearly as much to this, as say a motion flight sim would, where you're dealing with gradual, yet far more dramatic sensations in pitch/yaw/elevation/roll. In those types of sims, A full motion platform is required to make it convincing.

----

Now, I'm not saying it's right or wrong (science!) but it's an interesting point on this obviously controversial subject! I'm not going to argue it (certainly not here anyway) but will close by saying whatever method of movement choosen, if it feels convincing to the user, surely that's the goal?

 

[tribolik]

Damn someone should tell this guys that they are doing it all wrong (according to science)

 

[LogiForce]

I think the drop on Leguna Seca or some parts of the Nordschleife would be a considerate and dramatic sensation of change in elevation and pitch/yaw/roll as well depending on how the car is aligned befroe the drop starts. Therefor such a solution would be too limited I think to fairly flat tracks.

Also I think that if the wheel doesn't at least move with the seat you'll have a weird sensation of increasing distance to the wheel when the seat gets aligned back. You all probably remember this from sitting on only the back feet of your chair back at school for example. The distance changes. Which is something you'll definitely notice while racing.
However some people might be fine with this reproduction of forces, I will keep my doubts. Plus I know how it feels when going up a steep hill and what you feel then is because your legs are more up in the air for example that the blood will flow out of them. If you keep the arms and legs steady and not pitched up, then you won't sense this.

Anyway... it is something you can discuss for ages to come. lol

 

[Ya Pops]

I agree with the principle that the wheel/screen/pedals should move with the seat/frame/whatever else, but in the case of the CXC for example, I'm not sure if the seat actuators travel far enough to warrant concerns over the distance change between seat and wheel...

 

[LogiForce]

I agree with the principle that the wheel/screen/pedals should move with the seat/frame/whatever else, but in the case of the CXC for example, I'm not sure if the seat actuators travel far enough to warrant concerns over the distance change between seat and wheel...

Well, when I learned how to drive my driving instructor told me to adjust my seat so I could grab the top of the wheel still but with my arms almost completely stretched. If you adjust the seat accordingly in the racing rig then you would end up noticing the distance change.

 

[Ya Pops]

Sure, but I've never seen any race drivers with their arms at full stretch. I'm not saying you're wrong or anything

Using your example of the Laguna corkscrew, if you were on a rig that could provide a 1:1 representation of the slope's steepness (tipping you forward), then yes, it would be a huge problem if the seat and wheel didn't move as one.
As we're talking about a rig with only a couple of inches travel, I'm not so sure that it becomes such a massive issue or even hugely noticable. And perhaps the benefits of faster, more responsive and delicate feedback as a result of not having to move the whole rig could outweigh the cons.

In an ideal situation though, yes, I agree. It should all move as one.

 

[glowplug]

The wheel doesn't really move since the entire platform moves and the wheel stays in exactly the same position in relation to your body with dbox. Fact.

Wanna play that game? So how do you turn the car if the wheel does not move? Hahaha - Yeah maybe we should start another thread since this will be a debate.

 

[glowplug]

Damn someone should tell this guys that they are doing it all wrong (according to science)

Yeah I guess I was not clear with my response - the original post was around 2-4 actuator systems like the DBOX systems. The video you reference is a 6 DOF system - completely different math with 6 DOF. I should have been more clear.

 

[glowplug]

Ehm... have you ever driven up a mountain or even a slope in a multi-storey car park? The entire car including its entire interiour is angled at the same angle as the slope. This is due to the fact that your seat is mounted to your bottom plate, the steering wheel column to the firewall, pedals to the firewall or bottom plate, the shifter to the tunnel in the bottom platem and your windshield to the chassis.

So everything should technically move. Seat, wheel, pedals, shifter, screen(s).

See that is why I understand people like you would get confused. Did you also notice when driving 45 MPH around a corner your body is moving 45 MPH in relation to the ground below you? 'Technically' the ground should be moving at 45MPH below you. Simulators are not simulating the car mechanics - they are simulating the forces placed on the human body by fooling your brain. I completely understand your misunderstanding of how a race simulator works - really - not picking on you - it is a very very common mistake.

 

[the_greeze]

Simulators are not simulating the car mechanics - they are simulating the forces placed on the human body by fooling your brain.

+1 for this. That is the crux of the issue.

 

[mikemav]

I'm curious, with all the differing opinions, how many of the people sharing their viewpoint on this issue have had extensive seat time in a Dbox system? Or both on that and in a Frex/typical X-sim style one with dual actuators moving the back if the seat? I myself have tried neither, but am impressed with the two positive reports on Dbox from the two owners here (particularly the tactile response as well), and I know many in the other camp must like theirs too. So does anyone here own such a system? I'd ideally want to try both to see what works for me. From the videos I've seen the Frex style seems like its noisy and might verge on too aggressive for my tastes, but I'm not sure.

 

[LogiForce]

See that is why I understand people like you would get confused. Did you also notice when driving 45 MPH around a corner your body is moving 45 MPH in relation to the ground below you? 'Technically' the ground should be moving at 45MPH below you. Simulators are not simulating the car mechanics - they are simulating the forces placed on the human body by fooling your brain. I completely understand your misunderstanding of how a race simulator works - really - not picking on you - it is a very very common mistake.

I never said a simulator was simulating any speed, did I? Besides, if we get really technical you are wrong in both cases since you didn't include the rotational speed and wobble of the earth. Let alone to calculate this against the position of the object(s) (car and driver) and their relative speeds. You could also get picky and calculate the practically non existent friction between the two and what this does to the relative speeds of the two.
Besides, it is also relative from what point you're looking at which of the two are moving for the naked eye. Normally any person would say the car, but technical both are moving.

Anyway!
In a motion simulator you have to work with and/or against the earth's gravity to reproduce the correct forces on the body. This doesn't only include the forces on the tissues of the body but also the fluids within the body. Everyone knows the feeling of standing in a lift. If you go down Leguna Seca then you want to feel this. The body becoming lighter when you go down the corkscrew and the feeling of blood rushing to your brain due to the sudden acceleration into a sudden new direction. Then again when you 'bottom out' when you exit the corkscrew and feel a sudden stop if you will.
If I am wrong and that the physics in real life don't apply to how you have to simulate things, then just call me crazy. lol

 

[glowplug]

I never said a simulator was simulating any speed, did I? Besides, if we get really technical you are wrong in both cases since you didn't include the rotational speed and wobble of the earth. Let alone to calculate this against the position of the object(s) (car and driver) and their relative speeds. You could also get picky and calculate the practically non existent friction between the two and what this does to the relative speeds of the two.
Besides, it is also relative from what point you're looking at which of the two are moving for the naked eye. Normally any person would say the car, but technical both are moving.

Anyway!
In a motion simulator you have to work with and/or against the earth's gravity to reproduce the correct forces on the body. This doesn't only include the forces on the tissues of the body but also the fluids within the body. Everyone knows the feeling of standing in a lift. If you go down Leguna Seca then you want to feel this. The body becoming lighter when you go down the corkscrew and the feeling of blood rushing to your brain due to the sudden acceleration into a sudden new direction. Then again when you 'bottom out' when you exit the corkscrew and feel a sudden stop if you will.
If I am wrong and that the physics in real life don't apply to how you have to simulate things, then just call me crazy. lol

Ok, so if you are not simulating speed, which anything that moves has speed, then all you are simulating is the interior of a car at rest? Go to your garage and sit in your car if that is what you want. And, no the rotational speed and wobble of the earth does not make my claims incorrect - stop grasping at straws. Again, my point is with race car simulators we are not trying to simulate the mechanics of the relationship of interior objects - we are trying to fool the brain into feeling the forces exerted on the body during racing. Do not confuse the two. I will say it again - it is easy to confuse the two.

Anyway!

Mayaman - don't stray away from your hijacked thread - keep posting updates as it is always fun to read what you are up to. And again as I said before - cool setup!

 

[LogiForce]

Fooling the brain != simulating the forces. I get it.
Simulating Forces means simulating the movement speed of the car in any direction. Got it.
Fooling the brain means rattling your innards but not so much your body fluid's flow to the point where your brain is fooled that its feeling the actual forces, but it isn't.

So if I am correct this system is just a small sized and half 'simulating' system that is easier to place then a system that takes you sky high. And for which of course not everyone has the room.

 

[Mayaman]

The CXC solution upon heavy braking moves your arms very close to the wheel. Upon acceleration it moves them very far back, this turns me off to it. Glowplug, I do agree with you that no matter what simulator it is made to simulate the effects and not the actual movement. I agree. My point is people are stating facts about stuff they haven't even tried or briefly tried at a trade show. With either solution you need to spend time and tune and get into the sim. Hardly the effect at a trade show or amusement setting. There have been times in my sim when I literally clench my body for impact. If thats not effect of sim on the brain I don't know what is.

When I hit a bump, my wheel, pedals, seat all move. When I turn, my entire car leans, not just my seat.

I don't need "science" to tell me this, I can see it with my own eyes. And since I have a D-box now I can attest that its pretty good at simulating this. Its not 1:1 but your brain takes care of the rest.

Now I've actually tracked cars including my track prepped 911 back in the day and the D-box is pretty fun. again its not 1:1 but like I said, your brain fills in the gaps. Anyone saying different just is talking out of their ass.

Either way, CXC or Dbox, you're getting more than no motion at all so just get what ever you like or can afford.

The pics of welding I promised. The rig is super stiff now.

And by the way if anyone is interested in D-box I can get a complete 2 or 4 actuator setup for half off basically. Putting it at least in the relm of normal people. Let me know.

 

[Hwangm]

Finally ,a quality post after a while, I've been waiting for Mayaman to post updated with awesome pictures 👍. love the picture man
Not that I don't enjoy all the argument and "friction" from everyone above but i think for motions argument and discussions maybe on another specific thread. of course unless mayaman since it's his thread.

ps:Mayaman, I've heard from HumanRacing people a while a go about D-BOX, they said that the best and most accurate feeling you get out of D-Box is with iRacing, they compared it with DiRT and F1 2010/1. I have a feeling is like FFB in your wheel. after you tried you wheel with iRacing, OMFG you can't go back to another game, well except DiRt and RBR.

 

[Mayaman]

Iracing Is definitely in my future, just not now. I have to finish engineering my visionracer triple stand to stand on its own since it is originally engineered to be connected to the rig. My goal is to keep the beauty of the vr3 and it's stand. Takes a little time to design solutions.

 

[glowplug]

The entire point of getting people to fall for the "wheel shouldn't move" scam is to get people to buy more CXC simulators.

These types of statements do the novice sim community a great disservice. Your simulator knowledge is very apparent throughout this thread.