Custom VisionRacer VR3. D-box motion, Dual TH8s, Triple projection.

[lemansfanatic]

I spend lots of money on sim racing because i still dont have enough for the real thing... If that ever changes, goodbye video games, hello track time!

 

[tribolik]

Sorry if you feel things are getting too personal, I'm not stating what your doing is wrong, it seems very clear your happy to constantly upgrade and continue chasing hardware, wanting more and more from the experience your sim can give you. I just question if doing that just becomes endless and never obtaining true satisfaction?

Maybe you have outgrown consoles since getting your motion? I can see you wanting to experience games using it rather than not using it of course but stating they are boring now is a bit of a sickening comment. Some would be overwhelmed by what you already had even before the motion.

People also play games for what they contain and offer. Perhaps your now motivated to playing what utilises your hardware moreso than just playing a game cause you like it. Is that what you find happening?
As a non offensive but interesting question do you feel your playing habbits are now being hardware driven?

For some in many hobbies part of the interest is in the continued chase, they really enjoy continuing to upgrade. Nobody criticised you about the price or money spent at all nor certainly told you what or how to spend it so lets be clear about that.

I've asked what you spent on it but you havn't as yet I don't think said. Personally I do not think such motion is worth mid thousands but that's just me and while options are available for less than what D-Box costs I just see it as the ultimate show off toy for such setups for people with pretty deep pockets.

Like I have stated several times if I am not overwhelmed by 6DOF on a professional motion system I am unlikely going to enjoy a D-Box or other for home enough to warrant its price. As you have said and we are best to agree we certainly have different end goals and requirements yet Im sure agree on many others.

I'm in the process of spending approx £3k on a PC so this isn't just sour grapes and with what I have already spent on components for my own cockpit could likely by now of had something similar.

I think you have a few handbags of your own... no need to be unpolite... if you dont like motion sims that something you are entitled to but you could find another topic to spam.

lemansfanatic - I would also love to do the real deal but I doubt I could try all the diferent cars and tracks sim racing allows, specialy with the same safety... If I could I would definitly invest on something like this and if I had invested the money Mr Latte or Mayaman on a sim rig than I would definitly go all PC.

Mayaman I would Really like to see some videos of that «baby» in action

 

[Mayaman]

If you're not enjoying or have any type of suspended belief on any motion sim I'd check your pulse, you might be dead. Lol

We've got a walker! Hehe

 

[Mr Latte]

I think you have a few handbags of your own... no need to be unpolite... if you dont like motion sims that something you are entitled to but you could find another topic to spam.

lemansfanatic - I would also love to do the real deal but I doubt I could try all the diferent cars and tracks sim racing allows, specialy with the same safety... If I could I would definitly invest on something like this and if I had invested the money Mr Latte or Mayaman on a sim rig than I would definitly go all PC.

Mayaman I would Really like to see some videos of that «baby» in action

I've apologised if he found some remarks offensive, sorry if a hint of sarcasm was read and taken more serious than intended.

You sim folk can be quite touchy, lol.
Us mere gamers maybe just don't get it eh.

I never said I don't enjoy it, I don't think I would want to sit for several hours playing it as I do get motion fatigue sickness as well. Besides that having no interest in flight sims means only racing games get much use from it. I tend to take a wider view and think if spending that money I want more varied usage for it and enjoy it on a much wider scope of games or something.

I guess it is more suited to the sim enthusiast than typical gamer.

 

[tribolik]

I've apologised if he found some remarks offensive, sorry if a hint of sarcasm was read and taken more serious than intended.

You sim folk can be quite touchy, lol.
Us mere gamers maybe just don't get it eh.

I would hardly consider you a mere gamer with a purpose build room, 3 xbox, 3 ps3, 3 screens, 3 3D projector another 3 expensive wheels and alot of tactile and sound gear... and you just posted that you your going to build a PC for sim racing that the graphics card alone costs more than my only console (PS3)

It is me that doesnt get what you are trying to proove in this thread. I usualy come in here to see if he as posted more photos or a video and I end up reading your posts complaining about the joys of motion simulation... cmom cant you find another thread to entertaint yourself? or are you trying to close this one as well?

 

[Mr Latte]

I would hardly consider you a mere gamer with a purpose build room, 3 xbox, 3 ps3, 3 screens, 3 3D projector another 3 expensive wheels and alot of tactile and sound gear... and you just posted that you your going to build a PC for sim racing that the graphics card alone costs more than my only console (PS3)

It is me that doesnt get what you are trying to proove in this thread. I usualy come in here to see if he as posted more photos or a video and I end up reading your post complaining about the joys of motion simulation... cmom cant you find another thread to entertaint yourself? or are you trying to close this one as well?

Prove?
Sorry if you find us discussing things or sometimes challenging each others direction or preferences has to be seen as an argument or trolling. I actually find it very interesting seeing the lengths Mayaman is prepared to go to. As for tactile immersion Im still waiting to learn from him how exactly it works on D-Box. I asked before but the post seemed to of got ignored. I would love to see a part of this thread used to show the hardware, software and settings available. To learn how and what it offers in tactile would be interesting. The motion doesn't light my fire but the tactile does particularly if it uses software cues rather than audio as that is really a very undeveloped but potentially fantastic gaming enhancement.

I've said before I'm a gamer and a casual one. Little or no interest in online leagues and racing in weekly meetings and things like that. Some find it hard to understand my position. Maybe look at it like a guy wanting a nice car or holiday home, they may not use it all the time but they like being able to.

A highend PC will bring mutliple types of game enjoyment. Ultimately my aim is triple 3D for racing games and FPS via the 3 projectors. Something only PCs can offer currently and with much better frame-rates and eye-candy.

 

[Timppaq]

If you're not enjoying or have any type of suspended belief on any motion sim I'd check your pulse, you might be dead. Lol

We've got a walker! Hehe

Lock him in the barn!

 

[tribolik]

Prove?
Sorry if you find us discussing things or sometimes challenging each others direction or preferences has to be seen as an argument or trolling. I actually find it very interesting seeing the lengths Mayaman is prepared to go to. As for tactile immersion Im still waiting to learn from him how exactly it works on D-Box. I asked before but the post seemed to of got ignored. I would love to see a part of this thread used to show the hardware, software and settings available. To learn how and what it offers in tactile would be interesting. The motion doesn't light my fire but the tactile does particularly if it uses software cues rather than audio as that is really a very undeveloped but potentially fantastic gaming enhancement.

I've said before I'm a gamer and a casual one. Little or no interest in online leagues and racing in weekly meetings and things like that. Some find it hard to understand my position. Maybe look at it like a guy wanting a nice car or holiday home, they may not use it all the time but they like being able to.

A highend PC will bring mutliple types of game enjoyment. Ultimately my aim is triple 3D for racing games and FPS via the 3 projectors. Something only PCs can offer currently and with much better frame-rates and eye-candy.

Prove? do you want me to link you to your own posts? Im only lying if you are.

You say Im a touchy sim guy (or a serous gamer to put it in a less personal way) but I dont even play GT5 online (according to you online leagues define a serious gamer) and nevertheless I would love to have a motion sim rig but for now I happy seing videos of people enjoying themselfs in those rigs on the internet... wich might be worse than being a true gamer but Im not affraid to admit it... what Im starting to be affraid of is waisting my time coming in to threads that interest me just to read uninteresting unfounded opinions ...

Well its refreshing to see someone as crazy about all this as I am.

Thanks for the help, look forward to more on your rig and Im sure myself and a few others will soon have you interested in multichannel surround tactile.

...But as soon as someone gets a little more crazy you stop enjoying it?

 

[Mr Latte]

Oh gees you cant even joke around here now calling some people (not pinpointing just you) touchy...

Not for continuing debating, that is a waste of time.
I'm trying to prove nothing other than question how some of you enjoy motion and I don't. How far this project will go before Mayaman finally decides he has bought enough? My point is to what extreme does the simulation become sufficient for him? I asked some genuine questions too, hes the one called FM4 boring now when 2 months ago it was amazing. Their is an interesting situation in how his new hardware in motion has moved the goalposts for him.

A discussion or differences doesn't have to be a problem so stop making something out of it all.
My personal ideas are indeed different but gaming focused not simulation, how many times do you have to read this. That doesn't mean I cant question or have to agree with the OPs own preferences. I think your trying to start something that isn't an issue.

 

[Mayaman]

Bottom line is different strokes. And again, you're worried about how much I spend before enough is enough? Are you serious? Seriously? That is really REALLY pretentious. This is all fun, an experiment if you will. I'll spend both as much time and MY money as is in my budget. I'm not a Walmart greeter not feeding his kids because I spent the rent money on a rig. Gimme a break. You're contributions are appreciated but now their just insulting.

I'm hoping others here can also learn about motion and what works and doesn't work. This thread is a thread of ideas fleshed out. Not many get the chance to do such things. So again, please don't assume you know what's enough. Maybe for you it's enough. For me it's exploration and learning. And also again, this a SIMULATION SKEWED PROJECT. Hence the focus on getting the display 1:1 and getting the movement and tactile dialed in. Or did you miss that?

But dismissing movement and tactile feedback as "big boy toy" is kinda silly. If it didn't work, why would Ferrari and Lexus spend hundreds of thousands or millions trying to replicate real movement? Because it works.

Again , Everyone is different but everyone who's gotten on my rig and taken a few laps always say "wow, can't believe how real that felt". I've even had a couple of people get motion sickness.

Now it's not only the movement. It's the tactile rumble at different frequencies from the dbox actuators, it's my large sweeping screen, it's my pedals and force wheel. It all goes into the equation.

I've placed an order for two more actuators and am waiting. I'll let you know if they make a difference.

Bottom line I've spent to much time building this thread to have it locked.

Thanks

 

[Mr Latte]

Well to avoid more disruption, I hope you will go further in showing how and what the D-Box does to utilise its actuators for tactile effects.

They give very little detail on it just as they do for their cinema chairs.

 

[Mayaman]

I've touched on the dbox tactile effects. That was the biggest surprise when I fired it up. I couldn't believe the strength and also the range of different vibration from them.

From tiny pebble, to road surface to transmission clank to engine vibration. Pretty nuts.

There is a reason these things are so expensive, they're brilliant. This isn't some glorified buttkicker. Lol

 

[Mr Latte]

Your right you can buy quite a lot of handbags and Buttkickers before you get to a D-Box.

The technology behind that part is something that really tactile would need to become mainstream. Having full industry support using to an extent like I have experimented with surround decoding but instead of using audio activated effects being directly activated via ingame effects.

Mixing the feature of directional surround effects matching to audio surround sound but in realtime working with ingame coding would be amazing...

Give you credit that D-Box maybe uses a bit of an ACE up its sleeve over other motion.

 

[Mayaman]

Yeah it's definitely not just motion, that's only half the game, the convincing transducer effects are probably more impressive to me and a nice surprise when I fired it up, I wasn't expecting that.

 

[Mayaman]

Took the VR3 apart today. Sent it to the welding shop. Removing any plastic joints and welding the entire rig into one solid unit, no joints. Should be as stiff or stiffer than any rig out there. And still no center bar, and as usual the VR3s inherent ability to hid wires.

 

[Mayaman]

The welding is done, this is now one of if not the stiffest rig available, period. I had them reinforce each joint with a 2" heavy gauge steel sleeve inside each weld. Putting pics up hopefully when I get home.

 

[superbike81]

I've done motion rigs (not this particular one of course) and I find tactile feedback to be more immersive than motion. The motion rigs I have tried had a very slight, but very noticeable delay (input lag) that caused the movement to be a split second behind the game. Also the inherent creaks and pops that they make bother me.

I use software called X-Sim running on a separate PC to get tactile feedback from the telemetry data instead of the soundtrack. It works extremely well and you can get a starter tactile setup for less than $100 if you do it right. Motion rigs are big bucks, and even if you have the money to spend it's difficult to justify the expense. If I recall, you say you got a pretty good deal on your setup right? I just use tactile feedback as the "next best thing" and I think it's the best balance of value and performance for immersion that you can get.

Bottom line is only the individual can decide how they want to spend their money. I would very willingly drop $500k on a car, but most people say that is absolutely crazy. Don't let anyone question your reasons for spending YOUR money.

 

[Mayaman]

Super the dbox doesn't have any lag that I notice, and like I've mentioned, the tactile rumble it produces is probably more impressive than the movement. I think peeps keep missing that point about dbox. Lol

But yeah tactile is important but IMHO it can't replace the combo of the two, it's just my feeling after using it now for three months.

 

[lemansfanatic]

I use software called X-Sim running on a separate PC to get tactile feedback from the telemetry data instead of the soundtrack. It works extremely well and you can get a starter tactile setup for less than $100 if you do it right .

I'm curious about this x-sim now, why is it neccesary to run it from a secondary computer?

 

[superbike81]

It is not necessary to run from a second computer, I do it so I don't sacrifice any FPS. The X-Sim software takes the telemetry output from certain games (iRacing, rFactor, etc) and gives you close to complete control over how each bit of data (rpm, speed, bumps, etc) makes your tactile transducers react. It can be run on the same computer as you run your games, but there will be a minor (but noticeable) frame rate hit unless you are running a VERY high end computer.

You need 2 (or 3) soundcards or an extra computer to run the software. Basically you are going to use the second sound card to process only the X-Sim effects and your primary sound card will be used for your normal gaming sounds. The third sound card will come into play if you are like me and you use a headset for specific sounds like chat, spotters, etc and don't want those sounds to be played over your normal speakers.

I will say this though, it brought my transducers to LIFE. Just running them off of the soundtrack of the game is fine, but you don't feel individual bumps and all the other little sounds in the same way you do using X-Sim. The adjustability is incredible too, if you don't want to feel the engine vibration anymore, turn it off, if you want extra power on the bumps, turn it up, etc, etc.

I'll cross-post some more information about it in a few minutes in the PC Gaming section of this forum.

 

[Mr Latte]

Mayaman. Still looking forward to you going into more detail about how the tactile on the D-BOX perhaps compares to transducers. It would be nice to learn more in why it is so good and how or what control you have with it? Superbike has highlighted something I have been following for a while and one reason I've decided to go back to PC gaming. It seems X-Sim has huge potential and something I look forward to getting my teeth into come the near future. With having control of direct "ingame effects" distrubuted over multiple tactile units, each with independant 31 band EQ 20Hz - 20Khz and individual amplification. Then to additionally utilise subwoofers in conjunction with the tactile for enchanced tactile stereo imaging within the cockpit base platform. Finishing with further user control of multiple subwoofers directly used and controlled soley for LFE range effects.

I may not have motion in mind but I think I should be well enough covered regards tactile and audio immersion to a level while experimental beyond most solutions available.

 

[lemansfanatic]

What thread title was all that posted under again latte? i'm starting to feel the tactile bug biting me harder...

 

[Mayaman]

Hi Latte,

I've owned a buttkicker LFE and a buttkicker gamer and the Dbox produces not only a much larger range of vibration effects but also stronger more convincing vibration. In the effects menu for each actuator you can set a strength and bias adjustment for each actuator in general. Then in the sub menus for each game then contain settings for bias between movement and vibration and several settings for strength of things like engine vibration, road texture, ambient noise, transmission clack, impact vibration, etc. it's very comprehensive and powerful. You can dial it back also and adjust it till you have a nice mixture between vibration effects and movement.

I don't use my buttkicker products anymore for PC gaming because they are not only redundant, but quite frankly limited compared to the Dbox. Also much less powerful.

Which ever motion platform you prefer, tactile vibration is easily the most important key to the equation. It makes the movement more real, without it the experience would be less compelling.

 

[ilonioum]

I wouldn't call D-box a full motion system, it just a small step up from simple tactile such as buttkicker and, as you mentioned, it still cannot do without tactile.

 

[Mayaman]

iloniom, with all due respect the dbox is a full motion system. And again, I don't understand why nobody is reading what I'm typing, the Dbox has FULL tactile built into it, you don't need any transducers. Am I speaking Martian? Lol

You saying its a step above tactile is so far off it's silly. But I guess I'm fighting a losing battle here. No matter what I say nobody is going to believe me. It's ok, for some reason Dbox gets major "hate" because of its cost. Oh well, ignorance is bliss I guess.

So yeah, Dbox is actually no better than a buttkicker. In fact the buttkicker is better because it doesn't make me feel like I'm moving at all, because you know, that just sucks.

Sigh

 

[Mr Latte]

Mayaman I do not think your previous experience with the Buttkickers you have had is a fair example in comparing. Bit of an unfair comparison and your kinda coming across that with D-Box their is nothing like it or can compare with it.

Maybe that is so, maybe it isn't so?
However what is possible with multiple driven tactile and the inclusion of subwoofers can offer really high amounts of tactile feedback and control depending on the configuration the user wants to build into it.

If you are highlighting that one of the major benefits with D-Box is in its control of "in game effects" and not "game audio" generated tactile like most people experience from Buttkickers and consoles that is indeed a great feature.

As Superbiker has said their are alternative solutions on PC to obtain similar control, probably even moreso than what D-Box offer in their settings and game support? This is the area I am going to have to investigate. Again I can only ask you show, not just explain some screen settings. Up to you if you don't want to but ideally what I am trying to understand is what are the limitations and possibilities of each? Many of us have an interest in this area and such for the community would be appreciated.

I personally do not believe however D-Box being a fixed or closed system has potentially the same level of performance or configuration to what is truely possible compared to a d.i.y specialist approach.

All interesting none the less but it is very hard to get information on exactly what or how D-Box performs and the drawbacks it has compared to other solutions. You state Buttkickers are nowhere near as strong or as powerful. Again if a user wants to add 10 Buttkickers for a particular set of effects they can support upto 1500 watts each via the LFE model and hell why not another 5 for something else specifically placed on their cockpit. My point is things like this are possible with a hobbyist self build and certainly the direction I want to take my own solution.

I specifically utilised my own configuration to run via Multichannel analogue output/inputs coming direct from HDMI for surround sound tactile. However the reason for this allows all my tactile to be separated into individual amplified and EQ controlled channels, then a channel can be duplicated or have multiple units for that desired effect or individual channel. It allows a user to take things as crazy as they want, I can change my source from "surround audio to a specific game channel effect if needed" and certainly not just be limited to a tactile effect coming from a single source or unmovable position which I think may be some of the drawbacks in a D-Box actuator.

 

[museumsteve]

If there was a shop around me where I could go and try a D-box, I'd probably buy one tomorrow
I wouldn't use it all the time but I really want motion on my rig but I will be putting more time into tactile now I've started messing with PC racers.

I do really want motion but not sure if I'll be bothered to build my own x-sim setup. I contacted simxperience this week about costs of a starter kit but with shipping it's around £1000 (plus import costs) and that would be just for me to try it out lol...so I'm not really sure what I'm going to do yet.

I've been messing around with Rollercoaster No Limits and can only imagine having motion for stuff like that

 

[alanchan2002]

Hi Mayaman,

If you don't mind that I post an example of the setting on the D-Box motion profile to provide Mr. Latte with more information

Just one example of car motion setup parameters in R-Factor

1) Engine
1a) Engine intensity
1B) Low RPM (engine idle speed)
1c) High RPM (can go upto 26,000 and the actuator can really vibrate at that level)
1d) Engine Type ( by no. of cyclinder upto 16)

2) Road Texture
2a) Overall intensity
2b) Source (by weight/Suspension/Height)

3) Acceleration Motion
3a) Front-Rear Intensity
3B) Left-Right Intensity
3c) Up-down Instensity

4) Skid Vibration
4a) Overall intensity

5) Advance Parameter
5a) Engine exclusive clip level (%)
5b) Road texture clip level (%)
5c) Acceration Low Frequency (Hz)
5d) Acceration Road cut frequency (Hz)
5e) Road High frequency (Hz)
5f) Skid vibration frequency (Hz)

This is motion setting for individual car. On Global basis you set a balance between motion vs vibrations. For instance in IRacing I got at least 2 motion profile for each car. You need to do abit of research on your car and then set the motion profile.

You will enable the car profile in the game that you want to play say Rfactor in the D-box game centre and just launch. The D-box will take care of the rest. My common problem is always forget to enable the correct car profile for the car that I want to drive. One common example is say my car profile is F1 william profile and then I launch IRacing but I am in say NASCAR cup car. The moment you start your engine and the D-Box motion start, you will know that you are in the wrong motion profile because the idling speed of F1 is abt 4000 rpm while CUP car is about 1,400 rpm. Normally within one lap, you can feel whether you are in the "right" car or not.

The best motion feel of game in my opinion are
1) IRacing ( car physis and tracks are scanned on location)
2) Rfactor
3) Simbin racing series
4) Dirt 3, Need for speed shift 2
5) WRC series (unfortunately this game support only 1 screen that I don't play often)

It is very difficult for a D-Box user to explain how the feel of the motion. I guess the only way is to try it. Different Steering Wheel and Pedals will also change the feel of the car in motion due to inputs of the steering wheel, FFB setting and pedals.

I hope this information can help here

 

[Mr Latte]

Thanks singapore.
Very interesting, lots of parameters their and a great deal of control.
I would think this is where a lot of the money for D-Box is because of such features.
Using their own advanced software algorithms possibly like DSP to alter or enhance the effects and allow trimming or boosting similar to using crossovers or equalisation.

Acceleration modes, I assume is for motion based pivoting?
So excluding motion these are the effects for tactile?

1) Engine
1a) Engine intensity
1B) Low RPM (engine idle speed)
1c) High RPM (can go upto 26,000 and the actuator can really vibrate at that level)
1d) Engine Type ( by no. of cyclinder upto 16)

2) Road Texture
2a) Overall intensity
2b) Source (by weight/Suspension/Height)


4) Skid Vibration
4a) Overall intensity

I presume with advanced control of frequencies to alter the effects for?

5) Advance Parameter
5a) Engine exclusive clip level (%)
5b) Road texture clip level (%)

5e) Road High frequency (Hz)
5f) Skid vibration frequency (Hz)

The actuators, any pics or more information regards specs or frequencies in how they work? Is it amplification or how are they powered, by mechanical piston? Upto 26,000 revs? That's going to be very high frequencies, so quite sublte effects must be possible as well. Any figures though on specs?

I don't want to hijack this thread but Id like to understand what control in settings is possible on alternative PC software and in game features/control. Something like the ivibe TFS3, any others?
Appreciate if anyone has seen a tactile configuration that utilises these and does so while also combining surround tactile and or subwoofers as I plan to utilise.

 

[superbike81]

The X-Sim software is open source and constantly being developed. It can also support DIY motion rigs as well. I'm sure it can do just as much as the proprietary D-Box software can do.