Damage in GT7 Discussion

[Zuku]

Thats how real racing is, sometimes you get wrecked because someone else made a mistake.

Think this needs to be re-posted again and again and again and....................................................again.

The only reason people want no damage in offline is how dumb the A.I, but when you play games with smarter A.I this isn't even a problem that's what I've learned.

 

[Exorcet]

True, by adopting toggle mode everyone can adjust experience however they like.

However, it takes time to model damage physics and time is not something PD has. There are many other aspects people want and that would enhance experience better than realistic damage.

Well if it's going to be in online mode, it wouldn't really take time to bring it anywhere else. That's what Johnny was getting at.

I also feel that people drastically under estimate how important to racing damage is. When people say that good drivers will never see the damage, or something like that, they're missing the point (and they're probably incorrect). I've never wrecked a car, but it's something I'm concerned about when driving at all times.

 

[Matej]

Well if it's going to be in online mode, it wouldn't really take time to bring it anywhere else. That's what Johnny was getting at.

I also feel that people drastically under estimate how important to racing damage is. When people say that good drivers will never see the damage, or something like that, they're missing the point (and they're probably incorrect). I've never wrecked a car, but it's something I'm concerned about when driving at all times.

If you are alluding to increased tension that people want to feel in driving games to match the real-life driving experience as much as possible, I don't think realistic damage is of much importance as general physics are.

When I was actively playing Toca 2 and GT Legends (both simulations for PS1 and PC respectively) every few laps prior finish line, I was nervous, litteraly shaking in fear because driving itself was quite hard and one mistake would mean instant crashing and lost race. Both games offered quite realistic damage at that time but as you had to be careful of how you were driving, whether your car would melt in peices afterwards or not, didn't matter.

 

[Exorcet]

If you are alluding to increased tension that people want to feel in driving games to match the real-life driving experience as much as possible, I don't think realistic damage is of much importance as general physics are.

They aren't the same thing though.

You can have a 24 hour race, gain a two hour lead and drive like a drunk. Without damage you may still win even if you're reliably forgetting to brake for tight corner. Factor in repair times and the difference between the two widens.

When I was actively playing Toca 2 and GT Legends (both simulations for PS1 and PC respectively) every few laps prior finish line, I was nervous, litteraly shaking in fear because driving itself was quite hard and one mistake would mean instant crashing and lost race. Both games offered quite realistic damage at that time but as you had to be careful of how you were driving, whether your car would melt in peices afterwards or not, didn't matter.

Realism doesn't necessarily equate to difficulty though. While there may be races where keeping on the road is a challenge, that should not be the case all the time.

 

[mister dog]

I played driveclub a little and bouncing off walls at 200k's an hour with just some scratches on the paintwork feels outright silly in a 2014 racing game.

I bet GT7 won't have it neither again.

 

[Zuku]

I played driveclub a little and bouncing off walls at 200k's an hour with just some scratches on the paintwork feels outright silly in a 2014 racing game.

I bet GT7 won't have it neither again.

Exactly in PS1/PS2 era I can forgive them cause at that point only game I played that had full damage in them F1 World Gran Prix for N64(I think it had), and NFS: Porsche Unleashed.

At that point I'll admit it wasn't a top priority for me, but now after you've played well though out racing games yeah GT is way behind the pack, and it's starting to show. People don't want to believe Vgchartz, but if it gives you a glimpse of anything there is something seriously wrong with GT6 right now, and it isn't the PS4 considering that only a handful of the install base has gotten one right now.

 

[oli440]

I played driveclub a little and bouncing off walls at 200k's an hour with just some scratches on the paintwork feels outright silly in a 2014 racing game.

I bet GT7 won't have it neither again.

Yeah... it's a bit silly, but at least the developers took the time to add some extent of body deformation, window cracking and some pretty impressive scratches. It helps to make racing more action packed, but Driveclub (like Gran Turismo) wasn't really intended to be a game where you crash cars, so cosmetic damage was nothing more than an afterthought.

It's the little details in Driveclub that I would very much like to see in Gran Turismo 7. I'd take Driveclubs cosmetic damage over GT6's anyday.... but I think GT5 has offered the best damage in the GT series so far, despite the fact it made cars look as if they are melting...

 

[oli440]

Programming cosmetic damage (i.e body deformation, scratches etc, similar to GT5) into GT7 should be a piece of cake. HOWEVER, the issue lies in the car models themselves. As you may know, the car models are 'fixed' so it's not possible to remove the bonnet and reveal an engine underneath, because it probably doesn't exist. Having cars shed body panels in GT7 is something I very much doubt. If they wanted it to look good, they would have to re-scan each and every car to the same level as the WRC cars (of which body panels would fall off, because they had modeled everything underneath, including the engines I think).

Rather than spend an insane amount of time remodeling each and every car, PD should focus on upgrading what is already possible with the current car models.

Inspiration for this? Grand Theft Auto 4 of course! The modding community have put pretty much every car you can imagine into GTA 4, and the insanely cool soft body physics engine the game has can turn any car model (regardless of its detail) into a really cool looking wreck.

Watch the video below and take note of how the axles of the wheels are moved out of place. In game, this has a dramatic effect on the vehicles handling, causing the wheel to lock up, effecting steering, and even causing tyres to burst with the friction. And the soft body physics? well, if this level of destructibility was put into GT7, I wouldn't care if the entire car was a fixed piece of metal. I just want those soft body physics!

 

[Parnelli Bone]

The Heavy mechanical damage online adds more realism and tension, doesn't it? So why not have also visual damage, car failures, punctures and all the other stuff that comes with racing? Every normal driving simulator has damage, I don't see why GT can be an exception.

THIS. I've been saying this for years. Thumbs up from me.

And if we get damaged, the opposition should also be able to take damage, although I doubt PD will go as far as any damage at all (other than visual) in simulator races.

 

[matticuss]

I made a post the other day on another thread with my opinion. It's just an opinion and I do believe damage is relevant to racing.

Hardcore mode:
Race ending wrecks result in a retire. Add incentives for clean racing. This thread gave me more ideas I might post.

Reading this thread gave me good ideas though. I have respect for wreck simulations but I believe GT has been busy with a different formula. I would rather see them devote their time to more important work. Like I said its my opinion. I usually turn visual damage off. I fire up different games for destruction.

 

[sems4arsenal]

I'd bet PD already have a decent working damage model (rally cars from GT5) anybody's guess if it's them, the car makers or game design that prevented the inclusion in the PS3 era GT games.

And to be honest I do believe Kaz will be for a high fidelity damage model in GT7 not against.

 

[oli440]

I'd bet PD already have a decent working damage model (rally cars from GT5) anybody's guess if it's them, the car makers or game design that prevented the inclusion in the PS3 era GT games.

And to be honest I do believe Kaz will be for a high fidelity damage model in GT7 not against.

The cosmetic damage was downgraded in GT6 from 5. Body deformation was absent. I bet it was a technical limitation where they just couldn't put GT5's model alongside the improved lighting and physics model.

I think PD have shelved many requested features for next gen. It's not as if the console isn't powerful enough. PD managed to get the foundations right for GT6. 1080P, 60FPS and 16 premium spec cars on one track. Now its a case of adding icing on top of the cake. Damage can be the cherry if you like

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'd bet PD already have a decent working damage model (rally cars from GT5) anybody's guess if it's them, the car makers or game design that prevented the inclusion in the PS3 era GT games.

And to be honest I do believe Kaz will be for a high fidelity damage model in GT7 not against.

It has nothing to do with the manufacturers, lots of games have damage. It's also confirmed by one other developer that not being allowed to damage cars in a videogame due to manufacturer limitations is an "urban myth". The hardware is the current limitation for PD, it takes some grunt to do damage on these high polygon cars in real time but on the PS4 it'll be by design if there's no damage. Project Cars will have full damage modeling on the PS4.

 

[sems4arsenal]

The cosmetic damage was downgraded in GT6 from 5. Body deformation was absent. I bet it was a technical limitation where they just couldn't put GT5's model alongside the improved lighting and physics model.

I think PD have shelved many requested features for next gen. It's not as if the console isn't powerful enough. PD managed to get the foundations right for GT6. 1080P, 60FPS and 16 premium spec cars on one track. Now its a case of adding icing on top of the cake. Damage can be the cherry if you like

It has nothing to do with the manufacturers, lots of games have damage. It's also confirmed by one other developer that not being allowed to damage cars in a videogame due to manufacturer limitations is an "urban myth". The hardware is the current limitation for PD, it takes some grunt to do damage on these high polygon cars in real time but on the PS4 it'll be by design if there's no damage. Project Cars will have full damage modeling on the PS4.

Is there any game out there that features extensive damage to stock production cars? (mods not included)

 

[Johnnypenso]

Is there any game out there that features extensive damage to stock production cars? (mods not included)

 

[Aphelion]

he seriously didn't notice the rear wing falling off? . but either way, i am 90% sure PD will not put an extensive damage model in GT7, although i expect that GT5 & 6 lacked a damage model simply because the game was already pushing the systems limits when there were 16 cars on screen, so i mean god forbid there would ever be 16 heavily damaged cars on screen on the PS3 hardware. But man i can't wait for PCars. Or GT7 for that matter.

 

[MarchingSaint]

he seriously didn't notice the rear wing falling off? . but either way, i am 90% sure PD will not put an extensive damage model in GT7, although i expect that GT5 & 6 lacked a damage model simply because the game was already pushing the systems limits when there were 16 cars on screen, so i mean god forbid there would ever be 16 heavily damaged cars on screen on the PS3 hardware. But man i can't wait for PCars. Or GT7 for that matter.

I'm optimistic, PD almost nailed it with GT5 damage and stuff so i can imagine what they'll do with much more power.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Even if they wanted full damage in GT7, you can't do with a standard what you can do with a premium. Standards are one giant shell with separation lines painted on, premiums have different body panels that could be made to fall off or come loose and take damage. It would look kind of silly to see a premiums vs. standard accident and have one fall apart and the other just get scratched. I'm sure they are very conscioius of how that kind of things would be mocked all over Youtube.

 

[Aphelion]

I'm sure they are very conscioius of how that kind of things would be mocked all over Youtube.

They probably don't even know youtube exists. Either that, or they, like many companies, don't understand the the impact you-tube can make on sales, be it in a good way or a bad way. PD needs to nail it in my opinion. i will definitely buy the game, regardless of how good or bad it is, but they need to nail it in order to not loose a good portion of their fans.

 

[MarchingSaint]

Even if they wanted full damage in GT7, you can't do with a standard what you can do with a premium. Standards are one giant shell with separation lines painted on, premiums have different body panels that could be made to fall off or come loose and take damage. It would look kind of silly to see a premiums vs. standard accident and have one fall apart and the other just get scratched. I'm sure they are very conscioius of how that kind of things would be mocked all over Youtube.

That's right, but my guess is that every standard car will be updated to semipremium (lacking only in interiors) to equalize premium car damage with the standard car damage.
It's only my guess, it's the most logical given that pd still wants to keep the standard cars aswell

 

[Johnnypenso]

That's right, but my guess is that every standard car will be updated to semipremium (lacking only in interiors) to equalize premium car damage with the standard car damage.
It's only my guess, it's the most logical given that pd still wants to keep the standard cars aswell

Do the semi-premiums have separately modeled body panels or just better looking lines that make them look separate?

 

[sems4arsenal]

And there we have yet, excuse debunked. Since the PS4 will be powerful so that excuse is also out of the question, now it's up to PD and PD alone.

 

[Johnnypenso]

It can be done, but it would be a huge undertaking with so many cars, require an absolute ton of testing and there's the issue of standard vs. premium damage. I think you'll see a little more damage in GT7, enough to make the fanboys drool, but nothing like realistic damage, probably no wheels flying off or body parts detaching.

 

[sems4arsenal]

It can be done, but it would be a huge undertaking with so many cars, require an absolute ton of testing and there's the issue of standard vs. premium damage. I think you'll see a little more damage in GT7, enough to make the fanboys drool, but nothing like realistic damage, probably no wheels flying off or body parts detaching.

Another reason to ditch the standards.

 

[MarchingSaint]

Do the semi-premiums have separately modeled body panels or just better looking lines that make them look separate?

I cannot answer you, maybe they're only halfway modeled or neither the options.
By the way i'd really like PD to make a realistic damage, not the kinds of catastrophic damages you see in games lately, but something to fit a game that has as part of the name "real driving simulator"
If you give a look at grid and shift damage models, you can see that there are exaggerations (but i've gotta admit that the dynamics are reaaaly credible) in gt i want to see and "feel" the difference that brings driving a carbon fiber monocoque model to a standard road model

 

[mister dog]

I really doubt they will have a decent damage model, nor the required updates to the career mode, race structure and such.

Their modus operandi for the last 10 years have been to improve the physics and the graphics, apart from that almost nothing got reworked or introduced (on the contrary things got worse due to weird design decisions). Copy pasting to keep the numbers is what they are good at and if we can go by past experiences, GT7 will be 6 with better eye candy and improved physics once again, bare some improvements to the sounds as they cannot really act like it isn't an issue anymore.

They can always prove me wrong though

 

[FiftyBelowZero]

In the video you showed, I think the car flying around magically won't do GT7 much good in terms of realism.

 

[Griffith500]

NR2003 is a great reference for damage modeling and handling. It has very little scripting, if a wheel pops off, it's because the simulated suspension components reached their simulated limits. Likewise, that same simulation brought subtle alignment changes with smaller applied stresses. iRacing continued and expanded that approach, and much of it is very subtle, but impacts on balance, aero etc. so it's very noticeable in a serious sim setting.

Other games that used such physical deformation were the Carmageddon series (although the parameters supplied were not realistic, for obvious reasons, and the tyre model probably isn't much to talk about). It even had plastic deformation of the chassis, albeit the parameters were again tuned for arcade fun. The whole physics scheme was a sort of perverted hyper realistic simulation in those games, quite avant garde. Wreckfest is a continuation of the idea, as well as the Carma reboot itself.

PD should take their influence from both extremes, but obviously the difficulty with realism is that the parameters have to be in perfect balance, and that's quite a lot harder to do.

 

[Eager Snake]

I'm thinking about damage for a while already, and as we know now with the alliance with the FIA, they are trying to raise awareness between gamers and general audiences alike, so that's was something absolutely directly related for me. You can't send the right message when you hit a pile of grass in Goodwood for example and your car ended up as we all know. Nevertheless, that's even worse in the Nurburgring, at 320km/h...
If we want to pursue realism, we need to go all the way down.
I was watching a video a few days ago from the developers of ACorsa debunking the whole myth about the damage in games so... it's up to PD.

 

[Zuku]

I'm thinking about damage for a while already, and as we know now with the alliance with the FIA, they are trying to raise awareness between gamers and general audiences alike, so that's was something absolutely directly related for me. You can't send the right message when you hit a pile of grass in Goodwood for example and your car ended up as we all know. Nevertheless, that's even worse in the Nurburgring, at 320km/h...
If we want to pursue realism, we need to go all the way down.
I was watching a video a few days ago from the developers of ACorsa debunking the whole myth about the damage in games so... it's up to PD.

What myth about damage in games did they debunk? That is takes up GPU/CPU or something etc?