DA's Super GT Series|PURE Spec 1.0|Last Round 4/14

[Wardez]

Yeah exactly, if you look at our schedule it would alternate between NSX/Supra [Type 1] tracks and GT-R/SC430/350Z [Type 2]tracks to make it so each type had a chance at pole each week. But the kicker factor is always the draft. So even though that the NSX's would have an advantage in qualifying, you could essentially hang on to their tails with the draft and keep up during a race in a Type 2 car. It was just dangerous though in that if you messed up just once, the draft advantage is gone quick.

But there's also a few tracks where the cars perform evenly well because of a good mix of high speed cornering and straights, as well as quite technical areas, like Suzuka. These are referred to as spec. parity tracks.

So with that in mind we kept the
Suzuka [parity]
Spa [T1]
Nurburgring GP/F [T2]
Sarthe [T1]
Monaco [T2]
Monza [T1]
Spa [T1]
Nurburgring 24Hrs [T2]
Indianapolis [T1]
Suzuka [parity]

We intended on using Laguna Seca but had to replace it with a second round of Spa due to us encountering the pit stop glitch where a driver's car wouldn't have its tires changed. But I think the glitch is a lot less there at this point.

But it still worked out well because if you look at our points table it's extremely balanced over the season.

 

[freshseth83]

You're kidding, the NSX is faster around corners and in a straight line! That's thanks in part of the mid engine layout. The only thing keeping the NSX back is the tire usage. Before the update it wouldn't matter. Because in my experience the ARTA NSX would beat anything besides the stealth car (extra power). Now with low tire life, the NSX MIGHT use tires too fast and have to pit before the other cars. But it's still as fast on 'twisty' tracks, and faster on 'fast' tracks. I would have chose the NSX, and I would have used the Stealth one because I like the liveries better, even with a weight penalty. But I chose the GTR because it's less likely to oversteer. But I was faster in the NSX, by almost a second at almost every track I tested the two cars.

I look at it like this- If on pole, Laps 1-6 you can be a second faster, gain those 5-6 seconds, while everyone else is battling you can increase that lead to perhaps 7-8 seconds. If you pit a lap early that just means you get back out on fresh tires with less fuel and go even faster. At Tokyo for example in testing I was doing solid mid-high 35's at first with the GTR, then fell back to 36's after 3 laps and almost 37's and 38's at the end of 8 or 9 laps. With the NSX, you can do low 35's but you'll last about a lap or two less and fall to 37's. After the pit stop though, 34's were pretty simple, and 35's and 36's were at the end of 8 laps. For most cars, that's qualifying pace- low 35's during the race if you can stay out of trouble will probably get you the win or at least top 3.

I think the cars are even over a race, but if you have the NSX's tire wear figured out, they're the car to beat.

 

[Denilson]

No, we are not kidding.

The NSX is not faster on all tracks.. Believe me.. Nurburgring GP/F, Laguna Seca and Monaco are def GT-R / SC430 / Z / TOM'S SUPRA territory.. no doubt at all.

If you can run low 31's at monaco in an NSX on Racing Hards (on-line / tire wear: on), please send me a replay. 👍

Honestly, we've done a lot of testing.. Believe in the specs..

 

[DA6righthand]

[Accent="arnold swartzenegger"]Hear them now, believe them later[/accent]

Thanks Wardez and Denilson. Saves me from explaining.

 

[Wardez]

You're kidding, the NSX is faster around corners and in a straight line! That's thanks in part of the mid engine layout. The only thing keeping the NSX back is the tire usage. Before the update it wouldn't matter. Because in my experience the ARTA NSX would beat anything besides the stealth car (extra power). Now with low tire life, the NSX MIGHT use tires too fast and have to pit before the other cars. But it's still as fast on 'twisty' tracks, and faster on 'fast' tracks. I would have chose the NSX, and I would have used the Stealth one because I like the liveries better, even with a weight penalty. But I chose the GTR because it's less likely to oversteer. But I was faster in the NSX, by almost a second at almost every track I tested the two cars.

I look at it like this- If on pole, Laps 1-6 you can be a second faster, gain those 5-6 seconds, while everyone else is battling you can increase that lead to perhaps 7-8 seconds. If you pit a lap early that just means you get back out on fresh tires with less fuel and go even faster. At Tokyo for example in testing I was doing solid mid-high 35's at first with the GTR, then fell back to 36's after 3 laps and almost 37's and 38's at the end of 8 or 9 laps. With the NSX, you can do low 35's but you'll last about a lap or two less and fall to 37's. After the pit stop though, 34's were pretty simple, and 35's and 36's were at the end of 8 laps. For most cars, that's qualifying pace- low 35's during the race if you can stay out of trouble will probably get you the win or at least top 3.

I think the cars are even over a race, but if you have the NSX's tire wear figured out, they're the car to beat.

How about this:

I've been in a Super GT race almost every weekend since GT5 came out.

Now, the NSX is most absolutely not as fast as the rest of the cars around corners, more importantly on exit because they do have somewhat similar entry speeds. Because of their squirrely nature under throttle this also explains their tire wear being more of a factor compared to the rest of the cars. It's a driver's car in that you're always balancing it to keep it on the edge. So the car beats the driver, it's definitely not always the car to be beaten.

This makes it so T2 cars dominate the T1 cars around tight tracks like Monaco and Laguna Seca.

I suggest you go, right now, to Monaco in an NSX and then run it in a GT-R. I guarantee you that you will not be able to get within a second of your best GT-R time, and that's if you're good with the NSX. If not, don't expect to get within two seconds.

Then you'll know.

But the general rule of thumb is that the more the straights, the more it's a T1 track. Less straights and it's a T2 track generally.

 

[awr117]

Would my calculations be correct with our season setup?

5 tracks favoring T1
3 tracks favoring T2
2 tracks partial (evenly matched)


Round 1: Tokyo Rt 246 (partial)

Round 2: Fuji Speedway F (T1)

Round 3: Autodromo Nazionale Monza Weather (T1)

Round 4: Suzuka Circuit Weather (Partial)

Round 5: Circuit de La Sarthe 2009 (T1)

Round 6: Grand Valley Speedway (T2?)

Round 7: Nurburgring GP/F (T2)

Round 8:
-Circuito de Madrid (T1)

Round 9: Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca (T2)

Round 10: Circuit Spa-Francorchamps Weather (T1)


If i am correct....still disadvantage for T2's

 

[Denilson]

Madrid.. def T2, or partial.. not a T1 track..
What you alo must keep in mind is that on a T1 track, the T2 car can keep up in the slip stream, and the T1 car got a slight tire wear disadvantage.. So if 1 more track suit the T1 car is only good imo..
But there's no way for a T1 car to keep up on a tighter circuit with help of the draft of a T2 car..

GV = T2 I think, yes.


Oh, and btw.. While I still remember it.. I was going to tell you (DA) before but forgot.. Be careful with the weather settings if you want to keep the cars on par.. Do not race with 100% wet track at Spa or Suzuka.. Keep it around 50-60%, and all cars are equal.. Too wet and the NSX does'nt stand a chance

 

[awr117]

keep in mind is that on a T1 track, the T2 car can keep up in the slip stream

True, but i noticed on Tokyo that there was no way a T2 would pass on the long straight while in the draft. It was just enough draft to keep pace with a T1 car. So basically it came down to battling like crazy the entire lap just to catch the draft to keep up.

Please understand that no one here is bashing the PURE stats. I think everyone appreciates the effort and time you guys have invested to make these races as enjoyable as possible. We just want to make sure things even out over a season 👍

 

[DA6righthand]

Madrid.. def T2, or partial.. not a T1 track..
What you alo must keep in mind is that on a T1 track, the T2 car can keep up in the slip stream, and the T1 car got a slight tire wear disadvantage.. So if 1 more track suit the T1 car is only good imo..
But there's no way for a T1 car to keep up on a tighter circuit with help of the draft of a T2 car..

GV = T2 I think, yes.

Oh, and btw.. While I still remember it.. I was going to tell you (DA) before but forgot.. Be careful with the weather settings if you want to keep the cars on par.. Do not race with 100% wet track at Spa or Suzuka.. Keep it around 50-60%, and all cars are equal.. Too wet and the NSX does'nt stand a chance

Wet can cause a messy race.

 

[Denilson]

True, but i noticed on Tokyo that there was no way a T2 would pass on the long straight while in the draft. It was just enough draft to keep pace with a T1 car. So basically it came down to battling like crazy the entire lap just to catch the draft to keep up.

Please understand that no one here is bashing the PURE stats. I think everyone appreciates the effort and time you guys have invested to make these races as enjoyable as possible. We just want to make sure things even out over a season 👍

Following a car close behind will def save you tires. And you will eventually pass.. Cause, as I said, the tire wear is a tad worse on the NSX's.. It can be tuned away pretty much, but not entirely.

Yea, no problem! I don't think you doubt just because you ask / state opinions.. 👍

It's always healthy to discuss..

And as you say, some cars will be strong on sertain tracks, and other cars on other tracks.. that's the beauty..

 

[DA6righthand]

Following a car close behind will def save you tires. And you will eventually pass.. Cause, as I said, the tire wear is a tad worse on the NSX's.. It can be tuned away pretty much, but not entirely.

Yea, no problem! I don't think you doubt just because you ask / state opinions.. 👍

It's always healthy to discuss..

And as you say, some cars will be strong on certain tracks, and other cars on other tracks.. that's the beauty..

I'll say, tire wear is not so great with the NSX's. At Fuji, rear tire wear is my enemy. I can get 9 laps on softs and pit at 10. Haven't tried running for fast laps yet but I tried to tune out a bit of the oversteer which helped with tire wear..,but still. I imagine Fuji will be a 2 stop race for some.

At Tokyo, I was getting 8 laps on softs. That's all Icould manage. I'll give props to boshuter on how to drive in longer races. I never really payed attention to how much I over-drove a car in corners. I've been getting much better tire wear now. Much better. Going into a corner, I drive as I would in real life (hypothetically). In real life, you turn the steering wheel according to how sharp the corner is. I don't know what person goes into a corner with the steering wheel cranked all the way to lock to make the turn. Apply that method to GT5 and it helps. You may be slower at first but you'll find your times will be fast(er) while going slower. Don't worry, I wrinkled my nose the first time boshuter told me that.

And fyi, I'm just speaking my mind. For no apparent reason either.

 

[freshseth83]

How about this:

I've been in a Super GT race almost every weekend since GT5 came out.

Now, the NSX is most absolutely not as fast as the rest of the cars around corners, more importantly on exit because they do have somewhat similar entry speeds. Because of their squirrely nature under throttle this also explains their tire wear being more of a factor compared to the rest of the cars. It's a driver's car in that you're always balancing it to keep it on the edge. So the car beats the driver, it's definitely not always the car to be beaten.

This makes it so T2 cars dominate the T1 cars around tight tracks like Monaco and Laguna Seca.

I suggest you go, right now, to Monaco in an NSX and then run it in a GT-R. I guarantee you that you will not be able to get within a second of your best GT-R time, and that's if you're good with the NSX. If not, don't expect to get within two seconds.

Then you'll know.

But the general rule of thumb is that the more the straights, the more it's a T1 track. Less straights and it's a T2 track generally.

Look, I don't know how you drive, or how you tune your cars, but mid-engined cars are usually faster in the corners. And the NSX is no exception. In fact, IRL the NSX was penalized in SGT because it was superior in it's dynamics to the Supras, GTR's, Z's etc. And the regulation changed to only allow front engined cars. I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about, but your 'GT5 Super GT every weekend' is nice and all, but this is only what you feel. If you're running your cars at some certain weights and hp's to try and 'equalize' them, then you can be distorting the way the car originally handles or drives. With stock settings the NSX's are terrible driving. But with a tune they're amazing. I don't know how you run your cars, or who you've raced against, but not everyone feels the same as you. So don't preach your logic to me as truth. That's not what I did. I said in my experience. Which is obviously different than yours.

You state the car beats the driver in some cases, but you're trying to tell me that the NSX is not as fast in corner speeds or whatever, but I'm telling you that with the right tune, it is. And this is in my hands. So either I'm slow in other cars, or the NSX isn't as bad as what you're saying. And the history of the car tells me it's the later. Even with the same HP and weight 9 out of 10 tracks the NSX is faster. I don't need to do more testing because I already have.

 

[DA6righthand]

Look, I don't know how you drive, or how you tune your cars, but mid-engined cars are usually faster in the corners. And the NSX is no exception. In fact, IRL the NSX was penalized in SGT because it was superior in it's dynamics to the Supras, GTR's, Z's etc. And the regulation changed to only allow front engined cars. I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about, but your 'GT5 Super GT every weekend' is nice and all, but this is only what you feel. If you're running your cars at some certain weights and hp's to try and 'equalize' them, then you can be distorting the way the car originally handles or drives. With stock settings the NSX's are terrible driving. But with a tune they're amazing. I don't know how you run your cars, or who you've raced against, but not everyone feels the same as you. So don't preach your logic to me as truth. That's not what I did. I said in my experience. Which is obviously different than yours.

You state the car beats the driver in some cases, but you're trying to tell me that the NSX is not as fast in corner speeds or whatever, but I'm telling you that with the right tune, it is. And this is in my hands. So either I'm slow in other cars, or the NSX isn't as bad as what you're saying. And the history of the car tells me it's the later. Even with the same HP and weight 9 out of 10 tracks the NSX is faster. I don't need to do more testing because I already have.

And you didn't pick an NSX when you could've because...? Just curious.

 

[Denilson]

Fresh: Your experiance is not exactly truth either..
If you are faster in the NSX around any of the tracks: Nur GP/F, Laguna Seca or Monaco, you're really slow with the GT-R/Z/SC430, or the fastest NSX driver in the world.. So wich is it.

Seriously tho, do some laps at said tracks and post some lap times, cause I find you experiance very interesting, and it's def something I want to look into before tweaking the specs for PURE JGTS 2. Would be awesome! 👍

Cheers

 

[Wardez]

Look, I don't know how you drive, or how you tune your cars, but mid-engined cars are usually faster in the corners. And the NSX is no exception. In fact, IRL

the NSX was penalized in SGT because it was superior in it's dynamics to the Supras, GTR's, Z's etc. And the regulation changed to only allow front engined cars. I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about, but your 'GT5 Super GT every weekend' is nice and all, but this is only what you feel. If you're running your cars at some certain weights and hp's to try and 'equalize' them, then you can be distorting the way the car originally handles or drives. With stock settings the NSX's are terrible driving. But with a tune they're amazing. I don't know how you run your cars, or who you've raced against, but not everyone feels the same as you. So don't preach your logic to me as truth. That's not what I did. I said in my experience. Which is obviously different than yours.

You state the car beats the driver in some cases, but you're trying to tell me that the NSX is not as fast in corner speeds or whatever, but I'm telling you that with the right tune, it is. And this is in my hands. So either I'm slow in other cars, or the NSX isn't as bad as what you're saying. And the history of the car tells me it's the later. Even with the same HP and weight 9 out of 10 tracks the NSX is faster. I don't need to do more testing because I already have.

Ok Seth. I don't go around claiming opinions as facts in subjective matters, but guess what? This isn't subjective! This "logic" is not simply my own, but was brought about after a year, plus change, of testing and racing over multiple seasons in high-profile Super GT championships.

Don't take this as trying to brag, because Denilson and I are humble-hearted - I just didn't feel I would need to bring this up but, Denilson and I ran WSGTC over two whole seasons, started the PURE establishment along with the maiden season of the Japanese Gran Touring Championship, which featured the fastest drivers on Earth, and which the spec's used here come from as well as laid the groundwork for WSGTC's current season along with Masi and Litchi.

When I said I raced Super GT cars most weekends I wasn't implying it was at a fixed spec' along with my old buddies and pals for some quick racing. These are major and prestigious events.

So we learned a thing or two. But it absolutely 100% true that the NSX can not handle corners as well as a GT-R or SC430. No matter what tune you use!

Not only is JGTS full of some of the undisputedly fastest drivers to ever touch GT5, but they're also incredible tuners. And if you've found something that puts the NSX on par with the GT-R in cornering then you've got a huge , very interested, audience waiting for the magical settings to be revealed.

I'm well aware of the NSX's real life potential from the year GT5's SGT cars come from and it is absolutely not accurately depicted in the game as it should be in real life. This isn't a Super GT simulator, it's a driving simulator. And there's no way you can simply imply that a MR car should be faster than a FR car only because of its layout... and that goes for real life too - I mean, I can't believe I even have to say that.

Just check our qualifying times in JGTS over the season, it's all the evidence one would need. Keep in mind the track and car types as I stated them earlier.

http://pure.gate19.net/index.php?page=result&race=1
(and btw all these times are on hard tires)
Click on each Round and you'll see how the NSX stacks up on the different tracks that suit it or not according to our "logic."

You absolutely do need to test more. Run the cars in, please, and then go out to either Laguna Seca or Monaco and get laps in the NSX and GT-R. I'll even provide you with a Monaco or Seca tune for the GT-R since you don't need help in the NSX.

Please, for the love of popcorn, do this first, then come back.

 

[awr117]

I noticed you guys keep mentioning that your series runs on hards. We are are running on softs. I am wondering if the softs are the problem.

 

[DA6righthand]

I noticed you guys keep mentioning that your series runs on hards. We are are running on softs. I am wondering if the softs are the problem.

I don't notice any problems when running softs v. hards. At least to me.

 

[Wardez]

What problem are you referring to?

A softer tire wouldn't make a difference.

 

[awr117]

I realize softs would allow all cars to handle better. But i am assuming the NSX would gain in the turns as it takes much less effort to get the power down. I could be wrong. Just throwing it out there as i have no clue

 

[boshuter]

I noticed you guys keep mentioning that your series runs on hards. We are are running on softs. I am wondering if the softs are the problem.

I didn't realize we had a problem, and am still not sure what brought all this on. Is someone whining about the other cars being faster?

 

[awr117]

I didn't realize we had a problem, and am still not sure what brought all this on. Is someone whining about the other cars being faster?

I don't have a problem nor am i whining. I feel T1's and T2's both have advantages and disadvantages. It mainly comes down to tracks.

 

[Wardez]

Just addressing any concerns relating to the spec's over different courses. It's not a problem, it's a feature xD.

 

[boshuter]

I don't have a problem nor am i whining. I feel T1's and T2's both have advantages and disadvantages. It mainly comes down to tracks.

I didn't mean you robin..... just wondered what brought all this on?

 

[awr117]

I'll say, tire wear is not so great with the NSX's. At Fuji, rear tire wear is my enemy. I can get 9 laps on softs and pit at 10. Haven't tried running for fast laps yet but I tried to tune out a bit of the oversteer which helped with tire wear..,but still. I imagine Fuji will be a 2 stop race for some.

May i ask what kind of times you are turning? Running all out, my tires are only good for 8 laps

 

[DA6righthand]

I didn't realize we had a problem, and am still not sure what brought all this on. Is someone whining about the other cars being faster?

I wanted to address this now before we got any farther into the season. Didn't want any one to be whining way down the line so I felt a track change was needed.

May i ask what kind of times you are turning? Running all out, my tires are only good for 8 laps

35's are definitely doable. I was running consistent 36.0's for the first 2-3 laps. Maybe a medium stint is needed for the 2nd stint to make it on 2 stops. 3 stops will be needed to run on softs for me.

 

[Z Crazy]

Not to beat a dead horse, but yes the Premium NSX's are a touch harder to tune for certain type corners. IMO, they don't seem to have the same grip levels as a GTR. However, they beat up on GTR's in other type corners that require quick direction change, like Tokyo. Then you couple a slightly faster straight line performance and they will dominate on some tracks. But on tracks like Trial Mountian, Deep Forest, and Grand Valley the NSX's are a huge disadvantage. You need to build in so much understeer to stabilize the car it no longer works the way you want.

As it has been said, I don't think cars should be equal everywhere (*cough, *cough NASCARs), there needs to be differences. I honestly believe the NSX overall is a slight disadvantage and the GTR can turn consistently faster laps everywhere except Spa, Monza and Le Sarthe.

The fastest cars in the GT500 class are the Standard NSX's hands down, and a well tuned GTR can hold its own against the Standard NSX's at 1 to 1 standard regs. The same can't be said about a Premium NSX, IMO.

 

[DA6righthand]

Not to beat a dead horse, but yes the Premium NSX's are a touch harder to tune for certain type corners. IMO, they don't seem to have the same grip levels as a GTR. However, they beat up on GTR's in other type corners that require quick direction change, like Tokyo. Then you couple a slightly faster straight line performance and they will dominate on some tracks. But on tracks like Trial Mountian, Deep Forest, and Grand Valley the NSX's are a huge disadvantage. You need to build in so much understeer to stabilize the car it no longer works the way you want.

As it has been said, I don't think cars should be equal everywhere (*cough, *cough NASCARs), there needs to be differences. I honestly believe the NSX overall is a slight disadvantage and the GTR can turn consistently faster laps everywhere except Spa, Monza and Le Sarthe.

The fastest cars in the GT500 class are the Standard NSX's hands down, and a well tuned GTR can hold its own against the Standard NSX's at 1 to 1 standard regs. The same can't be said about a Premium NSX, IMO.

Hence why the SC's and GT-R's were up front at Trial Mountain.

 

[Z Crazy]

...35's are definitely doable. I was running consistent 36.0's for the first 2-3 laps. Maybe a medium stint is needed for the 2nd stint to make it on 2 stops. 3 stops will be needed to run on softs for me.

This one should be interesting. Fuji is a track where the NSX's will not have to tune out oversteer excessively and it's long corners should favor the NSX, provided the driver doesn't burn tires off too quick. The straight is long enough to keep the balance in the favor NSXs, but the braking zones are a disadvantage to the NSX. Having three crucial braking zones, that advantage definately goes to the Lexus' and GTR's.

On softs, I think we will see some 34's (at least my goal is to get below 34.4).

 

[DA6righthand]

This one should be interesting. Fuji is a track where the NSX's will not have to tune out oversteer excessively and it's long corners should favor the NSX, provided the driver doesn't burn tires off too quick. The straight is long enough to keep the balance in the favor NSXs, but the braking zones are a disadvantage to the NSX. Having three crucial braking zones, that advantage definately goes to the Lexus' and GTR's.

On softs, I think we will see some 34's (at least my goal is to get below 34.4).

How many laps are you getting to a set of softs? I'd like to see what kind of set up you're running also. Mine is relatively soft with no toe. Throttle control will be key for us NSX's at Fuji.

 

[awr117]

35's are definitely doable. I was running consistent 36.0's for the first 2-3 laps. Maybe a medium stint is needed for the 2nd stint to make it on 2 stops. 3 stops will be needed to run on softs for me.

I can hit 35's. Mainly pacing in the 36's though. I need to work on my car to see if i can get it to handle a bit better in a few of the braking zones. Tail wants to jump out at times.