Deltawing just went missing! UPDATE: Reappeared, but got a child.

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Swagger897
I do think we will get it in the game as dlc, eventually after the dispute is settled. What boggles my mind, is that the FIA has nothing to say about it (that the zeod will be unnable to partake in the event)

After a little reading, i stumbled to looking at Autoweek, one of my favorite car mags second to topgear magazine.
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20130914/motorsports/130919894

Here it describes in detail the whole events from the day after the 2012 24 hours of le mans. What i found interesting, is that Mr. Panoz is suing over the Coupe version (the closed monocoque[the chrome one]) and not the "batmobile" that we were expecting. Why was it taken down then? Here's what i assume:

Ben Bowlby is like Adrian Newey of red bull. They both draw up cars, maybe one does it on a CAD and the other by pencil, but that doesnt matter. Mr. Bowlby was first teamed up with Highcroft to design a car with their "tub" design. He did so and helped modify the car to fit the Nissan power plant, after engine struggles from highcroft. After the 2012 24 Hour Le Mans race, the project was pretty much scrapped by highcroft and bought by mr panoz. He, along with other designers from his own racing teams, designed the DeltaWing Coupe (not the Nissan Deltawing.. two different cars). Mr panoz put up the cars for sale (i think three) for privateer racing groups, but Mr. Panoz sponsored one of the DeltaWings himself. The DeltaWing has basically come to its end in racing now, since Mr. Panoz has settled not to race it with his own team, but rather to "liquidate" them off to privateers.

Now Nissan comes back in for 2014's 24 Hours of Le Mans, with their ZEOD RC (Zero Emissions On Demand Racing Car). Ben Bowlby, who was hiding from designing cars, was picked up by nissan to design the ZEOD. Basically, using patents HE, Ben Bowlby, submitted, used HIS drawings to create the ZEOD, due to its lightweightness.

Now that Mr. Panoz has seen this ZEOD, he claims it is patent infringment with his DeltaWing coupe. Supposivley, his plan is to stop Nissan from partaking in the 24 hour race, to submit his own, but that hasnt been confirmed.

So, what can we sum up? Ben Bowlby will be going to court to prove that his drawings are different. Which in fact, they are. What we are basically talking about is the Nissan Deltawing and the Nissan ZEOD, two cars owned by Nissan at one point, now suing their arms and legs. Ever sinc Mr. Panoz bought the Nissan Deltawing, he has been using his own DeltaWing coupe. So there are technically three cars we are talking about. Mr Bowlby's deltawing (the Nissan Deltawing), mr Panoz's deltawing (the DeltaWing coupe), and Nissan's ZEOD. It is basically Mr. panoz's design, versus the Nissan ZEOD, but nissan used the Nissan Deltawing to design the ZEOD. That is why we dont have the Nissan deltawing.

There is probably no chance we will ever see the DeltaWing coupe, but if the case turns in Nissan's hands, there is a good probability to see the ZEOD and the Nissan Deltawing return..
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It's actually even more complicated than that - assuming that licensing and pending legal action are to blame.

The black, roadster Deltawing was never a Nissan. It was entered under the Nissan factory team to Le Mans (presumably as part of the engine deal), but the chassis was always the property (and intellectual property) of Deltawing Racing. Hence why it was called Nissan Deltawing (compare to Greaves entering a Zytek chassis with a Nissan engine - the entry is called Greaves Zytek-Nissan) on the entry list.


Here's where it gets complicated. Deltawing Racing was an umbrella company comprised of All American Racing (which can be considered to own the design through Ben Bowlby), Highcroft Racing (who built it from an AMR-One tub), Michelin and Panoz. Don Panoz owns the image rights to the Nissan Deltawing as part of Deltawing Racing - and it was related to me he was asking for $1m to have it feature in a game.

The silver, coupe Deltawing is also a Deltawing Racing chassis, now powered by a Mazda engine. I think that currently runs as a "Deltawing" entry.

ZEOD is a weird case. It looks quite like the Deltawing Racing Deltawing, is underpinned by a pretty similar platform and was designed by Ben Bowlby - again with Highcroft Racing and Michelin as partners, but, crucially, not Panoz.

From Don Panoz's point of view, Nissan are using a venture he backed (Deltawing Racing) to promote their ZE technology at LM24 but without any connection (or flow of money) to him, the commercial rights holder of the Deltawing. I'd assume Nissan's point of view is that Bowlby's design, Highcroft's (Aston Martin) chassis and Michelin's tyres are nothing to do with Don Panoz.


I'm personally struggling to draw a connection between the ZEOD/DW Coupe dispute and the disappearance of the DW roadster from GT6. Maybe as part of the legal procedings, Panoz has asserted sole-use claims to the name "Deltawing" in a motorsports context and the fact the DW roadster is pretty likely to be in the Nissan dealer in GT6 breaks that. I don't know.

I can tell you it's a bloody weird car to drive in GT6 though.
 
37673656.jpg
 
Swagger897
I do think we will get it in the game as dlc, eventually after the dispute is settled. What boggles my mind, is that the FIA has nothing to say about it (that the zeod will be unnable to partake in the event)

After a little reading, i stumbled to looking at Autoweek, one of my favorite car mags second to topgear magazine.
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20130914/motorsports/130919894

Here it describes in detail the whole events from the day after the 2012 24 hours of le mans. What i found interesting, is that Mr. Panoz is suing over the Coupe version (the closed monocoque[the chrome one]) and not the "batmobile" that we were expecting. Why was it taken down then? Here's what i assume:

Ben Bowlby is like Adrian Newey of red bull. They both draw up cars, maybe one does it on a CAD and the other by pencil, but that doesnt matter. Mr. Bowlby was first teamed up with Highcroft to design a car with their "tub" design. He did so and helped modify the car to fit the Nissan power plant, after engine struggles from highcroft. After the 2012 24 Hour Le Mans race, the project was pretty much scrapped by highcroft and bought by mr panoz. He, along with other designers from his own racing teams, designed the DeltaWing Coupe (not the Nissan Deltawing.. two different cars). Mr panoz put up the cars for sale (i think three) for privateer racing groups, but Mr. Panoz sponsored one of the DeltaWings himself. The DeltaWing has basically come to its end in racing now, since Mr. Panoz has settled not to race it with his own team, but rather to "liquidate" them off to privateers.

Now Nissan comes back in for 2014's 24 Hours of Le Mans, with their ZEOD RC (Zero Emissions On Demand Racing Car). Ben Bowlby, who was hiding from designing cars, was picked up by nissan to design the ZEOD. Basically, using patents HE, Ben Bowlby, submitted, used HIS drawings to create the ZEOD, due to its lightweightness.

Now that Mr. Panoz has seen this ZEOD, he claims it is patent infringment with his DeltaWing coupe. Supposivley, his plan is to stop Nissan from partaking in the 24 hour race, to submit his own, but that hasnt been confirmed.

So, what can we sum up? Ben Bowlby will be going to court to prove that his drawings are different. Which in fact, they are. What we are basically talking about is the Nissan Deltawing and the Nissan ZEOD, two cars owned by Nissan at one point, now suing their arms and legs. Ever sinc Mr. Panoz bought the Nissan Deltawing, he has been using his own DeltaWing coupe. So there are technically three cars we are talking about. Mr Bowlby's deltawing (the Nissan Deltawing), mr Panoz's deltawing (the DeltaWing coupe), and Nissan's ZEOD. It is basically Mr. panoz's design, versus the Nissan ZEOD, but nissan used the Nissan Deltawing to design the ZEOD. That is why we dont have the Nissan deltawing.

There is probably no chance we will ever see the DeltaWing coupe, but if the case turns in Nissan's hands, there is a good probability to see the ZEOD and the Nissan Deltawing return..
Click to expand...
It's definitely sour grapes from Mr. Panoz.

ralph89
I wont be surpruse if MS, T10, or EA has anything to do with this.
Click to expand...
Very small chance of this now methinks. Sure MS/T10 may have rights to ALMS and USCR, but it's not a license for the individual cars, even if MS/T10 have rights there's nothing stopping Polyphony from licensing a load of LMPs, PCs, DPs, GTs and GTEs, and then racing them against each other in GT6, it would just be the same as the unofficial DTM races in GT5.
 
What if it's all a publicity stunt? I mean, first the lunar rover, now the disappearing Deltawing after alleged legal disputes with Panoz. What next?
The game is about to be released and PD needs to hype it up, make people talk about it, without showing too much content yet.
 
TetreRouge
It's definitely sour grapes from Mr. Panoz.


Very small chance of this now methinks. Sure MS/T10 may have rights to ALMS and USCR, but it's not a license for the individual cars, even if MS/T10 have rights there's nothing stopping Polyphony from licensing a load of LMPs, PCs, DPs, GTs and GTEs, and then racing them against each other in GT6, it would just be the same as the unofficial DTM races in GT5.
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My bad I didn't check the other post, im just fed up with the Porsche and Ferrari exclusive with EA and T10, it just ruins the competition, Im glad PD doesnt resort to this type of dirty tactics to get extra sales.
 
Famine
It's actually even more complicated than that - assuming that licensing and pending legal action are to blame.

The black, roadster Deltawing was never a Nissan. It was entered under the Nissan factory team to Le Mans (presumably as part of the engine deal), but the chassis was always the property (and intellectual property) of Deltawing Racing. Hence why it was called Nissan Deltawing (compare to Greaves entering a Zytek chassis with a Nissan engine - the entry is called Greaves Zytek-Nissan) on the entry list.

Here's where it gets complicated. Deltawing Racing was an umbrella company comprised of All American Racing (which can be considered to own the design through Ben Bowlby), Highcroft Racing (who built it from an AMR-One tub), Michelin and Panoz. Don Panoz owns the image rights to the Nissan Deltawing as part of Deltawing Racing - and it was related to me he was asking for $1m to have it feature in a game.

The silver, coupe Deltawing is also a Deltawing Racing chassis, now powered by a Mazda engine. I think that currently runs as a "Deltawing" entry.

ZEOD is a weird case. It looks quite like the Deltawing Racing Deltawing, is underpinned by a pretty similar platform and was designed by Ben Bowlby - again with Highcroft Racing and Michelin as partners, but, crucially, not Panoz.

From Don Panoz's point of view, Nissan are using a venture he backed (Deltawing Racing) to promote their ZE technology at LM24 but without any connection (or flow of money) to him, the commercial rights holder of the Deltawing. I'd assume Nissan's point of view is that Bowlby's design, Highcroft's (Aston Martin) chassis and Michelin's tyres are nothing to do with Don Panoz.

I'm personally struggling to draw a connection between the ZEOD/DW Coupe dispute and the disappearance of the DW roadster from GT6. Maybe as part of the legal procedings, Panoz has asserted sole-use claims to the name "Deltawing" in a motorsports context and the fact the DW roadster is pretty likely to be in the Nissan dealer in GT6 breaks that. I don't know.

I can tell you it's a bloody weird car to drive in GT6 though.
Click to expand...

Good summary, that's exactly why legal should have told Kaz not to touch this car. If DeltaWing Racing own the right to the DeltaWing design, Nissan would have had to acquire legal rights to the likeness of their car to licensed it to PD, but they obviously didn't. Now if Nissan is again building another car based on DeltaWing's intellectual property, DWR have the legal obligation to sue if they want to keep their intellectual property, else they lose it, that's the law.

Maybe the legal action against Nissan opened Sony's eyes as to whom owns the likeness to the Nissan DW, and they licensed a car from Nissan that isn't theirs, so they retracted the car. Maybe they knew it was a mess, but DWR haven't been enforcing their rights so far, but now legal actions against Nissan gave them cold feet as the likeliness of receiving a cease and desist letter themselves is gaining in potential.
 
If I'm not mistaken, at least at the start, it wasn't really even a Nissan engine. Although it had some Nissan parts (and Nissan's financial backing), the DeltaWing's original inline four that Ray Mallock Engineering built was more Chevrolet than Nissan - they also built the inline four in the Cruze that dominated the WTCC.

lalaurentide
Good summary, that's exactly why legal should have told Kaz not to touch this car. If DeltaWing Racing own the right to the DeltaWing design, Nissan would have had to acquire legal rights to the likeness of their car to licensed it to PD, but they obviously didn't. Now if Nissan is again building another car based on DeltaWing's intellectual property, DWR have the legal obligation to sue if they want to keep their intellectual property, else they lose it, that's the law.

Maybe the legal action against Nissan opened Sony's eyes as to whom owns the likeness to the Nissan DW, and they licensed a car from Nissan that isn't theirs, so they retracted the car. Maybe they knew it was a mess, but DWR haven't been enforcing their rights so far, but now legal actions against Nissan gave them cold feet as the likeliness of receiving a cease and desist letter themselves is growing in potential.
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It's not DeltaWing Racing that's giving the ZEOD Project grief. It's Panoz that is looking into intellectual rights investigations. For all intents and purposes, Bowlby is DeltaWing Racing and he and the technical lead/designer heading the ZEOD Project under Nissan are one and the same.
 
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Nissan's marketing promoted the engine's "DIG-T", a system they use on the Juke, but it's simply the name of Nissan's direct injection technology that both cars shared, not an engine code. Similar to my BRZ and the FR-S/86 having "D4-S" on the engine cover, although that's not the code of either car's engine, it's simple the title of the direct/port injection system.

The DeltaWing did test with a different motor than it raced with, simply for proof of concept, and it's unknown if the Chevrolet WTCC link is simply with the test motor or the race motor. RML did provide both motors however.
 
Famine
It's actually even more complicated than that - assuming that licensing and pending legal action are to blame.

The black, roadster Deltawing was never a Nissan. It was entered under the Nissan factory team to Le Mans (presumably as part of the engine deal), but the chassis was always the property (and intellectual property) of Deltawing Racing. Hence why it was called Nissan Deltawing (compare to Greaves entering a Zytek chassis with a Nissan engine - the entry is called Greaves Zytek-Nissan) on the entry list.

Here's where it gets complicated. Deltawing Racing was an umbrella company comprised of All American Racing (which can be considered to own the design through Ben Bowlby), Highcroft Racing (who built it from an AMR-One tub), Michelin and Panoz. Don Panoz owns the image rights to the Nissan Deltawing as part of Deltawing Racing - and it was related to me he was asking for $1m to have it feature in a game.

The silver, coupe Deltawing is also a Deltawing Racing chassis, now powered by a Mazda engine. I think that currently runs as a "Deltawing" entry.

ZEOD is a weird case. It looks quite like the Deltawing Racing Deltawing, is underpinned by a pretty similar platform and was designed by Ben Bowlby - again with Highcroft Racing and Michelin as partners, but, crucially, not Panoz.

From Don Panoz's point of view, Nissan are using a venture he backed (Deltawing Racing) to promote their ZE technology at LM24 but without any connection (or flow of money) to him, the commercial rights holder of the Deltawing. I'd assume Nissan's point of view is that Bowlby's design, Highcroft's (Aston Martin) chassis and Michelin's tyres are nothing to do with Don Panoz.

I'm personally struggling to draw a connection between the ZEOD/DW Coupe dispute and the disappearance of the DW roadster from GT6. Maybe as part of the legal procedings, Panoz has asserted sole-use claims to the name "Deltawing" in a motorsports context and the fact the DW roadster is pretty likely to be in the Nissan dealer in GT6 breaks that. I don't know.

I can tell you it's a bloody weird car to drive in GT6 though.
Click to expand...
So if PD purchased the license to include the DeltaWing image Don Panoz, could it then feature in GT6 as The DeltaWing in say the GranTurismo Garage, thus deleting any details of Nissans involvement with the engine or that it competed in 2012 out of Garage 56 as "Nissan DeltaWing"?
 
No idea - I don't even know if the legal Deltawing/Nissan Deltawing/ZEOD wranglings are anything to do with it.
The359
Nissan's marketing promoted the engine's "DIG-T", a system they use on the Juke, but it's simply the name of Nissan's direct injection technology that both cars shared, not an engine code. Similar to my BRZ and the FR-S/86 having "D4-S" on the engine cover, although that's not the code of either car's engine, it's simple the title of the direct/port injection system.
Click to expand...
Indeed, but Nissan supposedly stamped it as an MR16DDT - which is an engine code used for the 1.6 turbo used in the Juke (and Tiida).
 
I think it is interesting that people are assuming that the Delta Wing isn't going to be on the game at all. We have all seen the videos of that car for demos, but those are for publicity. The actual game may end up requiring we buy the DLC for the car. It sucks but that's how it is. I am unsure why everyone seems to think it is a legal matter. I doubt PD would be dumb enough to take a car like that and just model it without even considering legal issues.
 
MLRSparco
Hahahaha I was gonna say that
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Maybe it's a good thing you didn't, Sparco - it comes in a variety of liveries, not just black. :)
Expressing one's mindset publicly can expose that thought to more than casual scrutiny.

____________________________________________

Great posts in here. You know what I liked and found useul. ;)
 
If they do bring it back, It would be a slap in the face with a fish if we have to pay for it considering how much it's been used for demos and trailers in my honest opinion.
 
Doober
I doubt PD would be dumb enough to take a car like that and just model it without even considering legal issues.
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They may have modelled it in good faith, with the person selling them the rights believing that they were legally entitled to, also in good faith.
 
whereSTheFUhd
If I'm not mistaken, at least at the start, it wasn't really even a Nissan engine. Although it had some Nissan parts (and Nissan's financial backing), the DeltaWing's original inline four that Ray Mallock Engineering built was more Chevrolet than Nissan - they also built the inline four in the Cruze that dominated the WTCC.




It's not DeltaWing Racing that's giving the ZEOD Project grief. It's Panoz that is looking into intellectual rights investigations. For all intents and purposes, Bowlby is DeltaWing Racing and he and the technical lead/designer heading the ZEOD Project under Nissan are one and the same.
Click to expand...

If Panoz actullay owns the commercial right to DeltaWing Racing, which he claims he is, then there is no distinction between DWR and him to be made, DWR owns all IPs and patents registered under their name, therefore Mr. Panoz "owns" those things, that's why he's suing the ZEOD project. Which is most likely what made Sony retract the car, either they have received a cease and desist by Panoz or a judge, or they are waiting until the case is settled. The link between the two events is pretty obvious.
 
Didn't Jordan say he would get an interview at Sema to get some clarification on the situation? Does anyone know if he managed to get that interview?
 
About the engines.. yes you are correct it used to be an engine I believe from High croft. I think the main issue with our though was the constant fires and engine failures.. running outside around neighbor hood, so I can't really tell what I'm typing
 
Doober
I think it is interesting that people are assuming that the Delta Wing isn't going to be on the game at all. We have all seen the videos of that car for demos, but those are for publicity. The actual game may end up requiring we buy the DLC for the car. It sucks but that's how it is. I am unsure why everyone seems to think it is a legal matter. I doubt PD would be dumb enough to take a car like that and just model it without even considering legal issues.
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Well, they did model a track without even considering legal issues and it was pulled out of GT5 even though it was already featured in countless videos and demos. So...yeah, your argument doesn't make half the sense that the "legal matter" argument makes. At least we know for fact that right know there's a legal dispute between two parties and that the DeltaWing trademark, image and likeness is on the line, but do we know for fact they're just pushing it greedily for DLC?
 
Hyland
As cynical as I might be towards PD at times, I'm fairly sure that's not the case here.
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Exactly my point. Maybe I didn't express myself clearly but my point is: It makes far more sense that the DeltaWing is out because of legal issues than because PD is going greedy on us.
 
CarBastard
Exactly my point. Maybe I didn't express myself clearly but my point is: It makes far more sense that the DeltaWing is out because of legal issues than because PD is going greedy on us.
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Ah, had to re-read your post. Makes more sense now.

:)
 
It's silly to assume that PD simply models circuits and cars without bothering to get proper legal allowance. The issues that arise are when PD believes they have done things correctly, but something comes up. As I said before, Nissan and Bowlby likely gave permission for the DeltaWing, but Panoz is protesting. Same with the Lamborghini Diablo GT in GT2 that was allowed by the racing team, but not Lamborghini. The kart circuit in GT5 was allowed by the city, but protested because of the flags or some nonsense.
 

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