Dr. Kazunori Yamauchi Gives Lecture on Gran Turismo's Driving Physics & Production

[Scaff]

You are quite right. I think mostly the same, maybe my english is not food enough to summarize with the proper expressions
I just wanted to point out that
- the enjoyable experience is subjective and has a wide wide range in a PS title’s users.
- 100% simulation is hardly achievable because of the limitations of platform. Another example: you can turn your head and have a periferical sight of 360 degrees IRL, while in a top rig you can have lets say 3 monitors - which is far from reality. Tactile feedback can be nailed but what about your other parts besides your hands? And that’s why...
- these titles are always about the balance of modelled reality and “playable”, usable methods - with the widely available rigs / circumstances, as I think. I can imagine that making those filtering and making your model “dumber” than it could be is a pain for the developers, but a necessity in terms of marketing and having a “succesful” product on market.

As a sidenote, let me mention Norbert Michelisz, as a real WTCC driver and a sim rig developer, and active user of racing factory simulators, not games. He use to say “quite close” but never “is the same”.

While I would agree with you in regard to vision, VR on the PS4 just isn't good enough for the money currently, on PC its a different story.

However with regard to tactile, it not just my hands that feel it, far from it. My rig is isolated and the tactile unit attached directly under it. As a result I feel it throughout my entire body, from the shifter and pedals vibrating from the engine, to curbs being felt on the correct side, to impacts and off track excisions (going off track and into the gravel in some titles will have the entire rig shaking). Dog-boxes gear changes can be felt as they should) and landing a big jump in rally titles will give a good thump in the backside and back.

 

[GTWelsh]

And all of the other FWD cars in GTS?

I've driven the Type-R, Megane and the ST and none of them understeer to the degree that they do in GTS.

No is the issue just around the understeer, but the physics engine slow reaction in regard to correcting it, with even the most severe lift-off returning grip ti the front end and getting these cars to start rotating in the way they should.

Bit late to this party but have you tried with Medium tyres, in whatever bracket you were in? Never been of fan of CH/SH/RH, low grip high mileage. CH is like driving on ice, shouldn't even be in the game imo , do tyres that bad even exist?!. The game dynamics seem to improve all round when you switch to Mediums, in every tyre class (becomes less of an issue with RH/RM, but I think it's still relevant).

Just putting it out there with Hards being the default for everything.

 

[Scaff]

Bit late to this party but have you tried with Medium tyres, in whatever bracket you were in? Never been of fan of CH/SH/RH, low grip high mileage. CH is like driving on ice, shouldn't even be in the game imo , do tyres that bad even exist?!. The game dynamics seem to improve all round when you switch to Mediums, in every tyre class (becomes less of an issue with RH/RM, but I think it's still relevant).

Just putting it out there with Hards being the default for everything.

Yep, I've tried it with the lot and while it makes a bit of a difference its still not 'right'.

I do however agree that the 'hard' compounds are the most problematic, partly I think because of the odd way GT has always dealt with heat cycles in tyres.

 

[CopperySinger]

Erm you do realise an honorary doctorate does not give you the title Dr.

There was a news story recently of someone misusing it, can't find it though.

Honorary doctorate does exactly mean the title Dr. Using the Dr. title the wrong way for an instance would be referring a doctor of science for your medical needs; you will need an Md for that.

Kaz is now a doctor in the area of auto simulation.
Dr. Kazunori Yamauchi.

According to studies
"Recipients of honorary doctorate degrees do not earn the degree through academic achievements, rather with generous and altruistic actions or lifetime accomplishments that benefit a community, nation or humanity in general. Some schools allow candidates to apply for consideration for the degree, while others require nomination by a third party. Each university that confers honorary degrees establishes its own criteria for acceptance."

"Honorary Doctorate Degree Types
Depending on the achievement, schools may present different types of honorary doctorate degrees. Some schools may offer only a Doctor of Philosophy degree, while others bestow a degree based on the accomplishment of the recipient. A few examples include:

• Doctor of Humane Letters - acknowledging academic distinction
• Doctor of Laws - awarded to professionals in the field of law
• Doctor of Science - recognizing revolutionary scientific research and discovery
• Doctor of Fine Arts - conferred primarily to musicians, actors, architects and artists
• Doctor of Divinity - bestowed upon exceptional religious figures" Study(2017) retrieved from

http://study.com/articles/What_are_Honorary_Doctorate_Degrees.html

Many people may not want to accept this or have opinions that he is "not right" but no one uncredited or whom makes proclamations about self can strip away his title in a discussion thread.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Honorary doctorate does exactly mean the title Dr. Using the Dr. title the wrong way for an instance would be referring a doctor of science for your medical needs; you will need an Md for that.

Kaz is now a doctor in the area of auto simulation.
Dr. Kazunori Yamauchi.

According to studies
"Recipients of honorary doctorate degrees do not earn the degree through academic achievements, rather with generous and altruistic actions or lifetime accomplishments that benefit a community, nation or humanity in general. Some schools allow candidates to apply for consideration for the degree, while others require nomination by a third party. Each university that confers honorary degrees establishes its own criteria for acceptance."

"Honorary Doctorate Degree Types
Depending on the achievement, schools may present different types of honorary doctorate degrees. Some schools may offer only a Doctor of Philosophy degree, while others bestow a degree based on the accomplishment of the recipient. A few examples include:

• Doctor of Humane Letters - acknowledging academic distinction
• Doctor of Laws - awarded to professionals in the field of law
• Doctor of Science - recognizing revolutionary scientific research and discovery
• Doctor of Fine Arts - conferred primarily to musicians, actors, architects and artists
• Doctor of Divinity - bestowed upon exceptional religious figures" Study(2017) retrieved from

http://study.com/articles/What_are_Honorary_Doctorate_Degrees.html

Many people may not want to accept this or have opinions that he is "not right" but no one uncredited or whom makes proclamations about self can strip away his title in a discussion thread.

Kaz joins an illustrious list of past honorary doctorate winners.

Spoiler: Spoiler

Dr. P Diddy. Dr. Alec Baldwin. Dr. Kanye West. Dr. Yoko Ono. Dr. Captain Kirk. Dr. Ed Sheeran. Dr. Jeremy Clarkson. Dr. Mike Tyson. Dr. Chaka Khan. Pretty much anyone famous can get an honorary doctorate these days. Personally I've always looked on them more as publicity stunts for the institution.

 

[CopperySinger]

Kaz joins an illustrious list of past honorary doctorate winners.

Spoiler: Spoiler

Dr. P Diddy. Dr. Alec Baldwin. Dr. Kanye West. Dr. Yoko Ono. Dr. Captain Kirk. Dr. Ed Sheeran. Dr. Jeremy Clarkson. Dr. Mike Tyson. Dr. Chaka Khan. Pretty much anyone famous can get an honorary doctorate these days. Personally I've always looked on them more as publicity stunts for the institution.

Publicity Stunt?!? no. If Mike Tyson earned the title Doctor as a boxer and has mastered the technique to knock out people in the ring, that is no publicity stunt; I guess he's a Doctor in the area of knockout studies.

While here offering insights of opinions about auto simulation in Gran Turismo it must refer to as Dr. Kaz now. But what is a publicity stunt is when someone entering this field with absolutely no credibility claim to know more about auto simulation than the doctor himself.

Johnnypenso, what are your honorary accomplishments in auto simulation?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Publicity Stunt?!? no. If Mike Tyson earned the title Doctor as a boxer and has mastered the technique to knock out people in the ring, that is no publicity stunt; I guess he's a Doctor in the area of knockout studies.

While here offering insights of opinions about auto simulation in Gran Turismo it must refer to as Dr. Kaz now. But what is a publicity stunt is when someone entering this field with absolutely no credibility claim to know more about auto simulation than the doctor himself.

Johnnypenso, what are your honorary accomplishments in auto simulation?

Mike Tyson's degree has nothing to do with boxing FYI. It doesn't take a degree in auto simulation to know when camber doesn't work, aero is borked by as much as 10%, ride height works the opposite of how it should, a simplistic tire model, along with a host of other issues. One only need to have played GT5 and GT6 to experience these things. How do we assess simulation efforts in a game where a TT winner might have front ride height maxed out in a race car with zero camber? I take nothing away from Kaz's accomplishments in bringing car racing to the masses, he's the undisputed master of that at this point. Had this doctorate been about success in marketing racing games to large numbers of people I'd say right on, go Kaz, you are da man!. But if one can get an honourary degree in physics simulation by releasing a product with such massive and glaring flaws in some of the basic attributes of simulation, then I'm going to stick with it being a publicity stunt. You are entitled to feel otherwise.

 

[GTWelsh]

Mike Tyson's degree has nothing to do with boxing FYI. It doesn't take a degree in auto simulation to know when camber doesn't work, aero is borked by as much as 10%, ride height works the opposite of how it should, a simplistic tire model, along with a host of other issues. One only need to have played GT5 and GT6 to experience these things. How do we assess simulation efforts in a game where a TT winner might have front ride height maxed out in a race car with zero camber? I take nothing away from Kaz's accomplishments in bringing car racing to the masses, he's the undisputed master of that at this point. Had this doctorate been about success in marketing racing games to large numbers of people I'd say right on, go Kaz, you are da man!. But if one can get an honourary degree in physics simulation by releasing a product with such massive and glaring flaws in some of the basic attributes of simulation, then I'm going to stick with it being a publicity stunt. You are entitled to feel otherwise.

So many questions

So raising the car lowers its CoG in GTS?
Camber doesn't work? From what I've seen it does.
The aero being out by 10%? How do you know this? Aero models look good in the presentation.
Simplistic tyre model, have you seen the tyre model to know if it's simple or not? It has tyre flex and deformation so it can't be that simple I'd of thought (tyre flex being something someone falsely stated didn't exist on page 1). I can tell you the PCars 1 tyre model was extremely complex (PC version) and people still didn't like it. But I'd like to know more about the GTS model if you could point me in the right direction.
What "TT" are you referring too?
Where has all that come from ?

 

[Johnnypenso]

So many questions

So raising the car lowers its CoG in GTS?
Camber doesn't work? From what I've seen it does.
The aero being out by 10%? How do you know this? Aero models look good in the presentation.
Simplistic tyre model, have you seen the tyre model to know if it's simple or not? It has tyre flex and deformation so it can't be that simple I'd of thought (tyre flex being something someone falsely stated didn't exist on page 1). I can tell you the PCars 1 tyre model was extremely complex (PC version) and people still didn't like it. But I'd like to know more about the GTS model if you could point me in the right direction.
What "TT" are you referring too?
Where has all that come from ?

This award is for his body of work, not for a game that was released a couple of weeks ago.

 

[CopperySinger]

Mike Tyson's degree has nothing to do with boxing FYI. It doesn't take a degree in auto simulation to know when camber doesn't work, aero is borked by as much as 10%, ride height works the opposite of how it should, a simplistic tire model, along with a host of other issues. One only need to have played GT5 and GT6 to experience these things. How do we assess simulation efforts in a game where a TT winner might have front ride height maxed out in a race car with zero camber? I take nothing away from Kaz's accomplishments in bringing car racing to the masses, he's the undisputed master of that at this point. Had this doctorate been about success in marketing racing games to large numbers of people I'd say right on, go Kaz, you are da man!. But if one can get an honourary degree in physics simulation by releasing a product with such massive and glaring flaws in some of the basic attributes of simulation, then I'm going to stick with it being a publicity stunt. You are entitled to feel otherwise.

Sorry but no. its only a preference on the way one perceive it as being a massive flaw. But you with your refusal to offer any credentials on the study of auto simulation and with your guesses on what is flawed does not give your opinions any credibility; but it does qualify as being a publicity stunt indeed.

 

[Stotty]

And all of the other FWD cars in GTS?

I've driven the Type-R, Megane and the ST and none of them understeer to the degree that they do in GTS.

No is the issue just around the understeer, but the physics engine slow reaction in regard to correcting it, with even the most severe lift-off returning grip ti the front end and getting these cars to start rotating in the way they should.

👍

FWD physics have always been garbage in GT. They don't allow you to load the front tyres sufficiently to induce lift off oversteer (or to even simply trim your line with the throttle or brakes).

 

[Johnnypenso]

Sorry but no. its only a preference on the way one perceive it as being a massive flaw. But you with your refusal to offer any credentials on the study of auto simulation and with your guesses on what is flawed does not give your opinions any credibility; but it does qualify as being a publicity stunt indeed.

I know from a gamer's perspective claiming that physics is just a matter of opinion and preference is fashionable, however inaccurate. One doesn't need a degree in physics to know what the basic flaws were in the past two iterations of the game.

 

[Scaff]

Simplistic tyre model, have you seen the tyre model to know if it's simple or not?

You don't need to see the tyre model to itself to know if its complex of simplistic.

How the tyre model reacts in relation to reality allows that to be analysed and an informed opinion made.

It has tyre flex and deformation so it can't be that simple I'd of thought (tyre flex being something someone falsely stated didn't exist on page 1).

That depends on if he deformation is visual only or has an impact on the tyre behavior itself, it would also depedn on if the flex and deformation is acting in a manner that reflects reality.

I can tell you the PCars 1 tyre model was extremely complex (PC version) and people still didn't like it.

Like has nothing at all to do with accuracy.

What "TT" are you referring too?

Time Trial, and the issues with people abusing set-ups in utterly unrealistic ways are extremely well know and documented in past GT titles.

 

[Lizard]

Honorary doctorate does exactly mean the title Dr. Using the Dr. title the wrong way for an instance would be referring a doctor of science for your medical needs; you will need an Md for that.

Kaz is now a doctor in the area of auto simulation.
Dr. Kazunori Yamauchi.

According to studies
"Recipients of honorary doctorate degrees do not earn the degree through academic achievements, rather with generous and altruistic actions or lifetime accomplishments that benefit a community, nation or humanity in general. Some schools allow candidates to apply for consideration for the degree, while others require nomination by a third party. Each university that confers honorary degrees establishes its own criteria for acceptance."

"Honorary Doctorate Degree Types
Depending on the achievement, schools may present different types of honorary doctorate degrees. Some schools may offer only a Doctor of Philosophy degree, while others bestow a degree based on the accomplishment of the recipient. A few examples include:

• Doctor of Humane Letters - acknowledging academic distinction
• Doctor of Laws - awarded to professionals in the field of law
• Doctor of Science - recognizing revolutionary scientific research and discovery
• Doctor of Fine Arts - conferred primarily to musicians, actors, architects and artists
• Doctor of Divinity - bestowed upon exceptional religious figures" Study(2017) retrieved from

http://study.com/articles/What_are_Honorary_Doctorate_Degrees.html

Many people may not want to accept this or have opinions that he is "not right" but no one uncredited or whom makes proclamations about self can strip away his title in a discussion thread.

These disagree.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorary_degree
http://www.formsofaddress.info/Degree_Honorary.html
http://theconversation.com/why-do-we-still-hand-out-honorary-academic-titles-66484

 

[CopperySinger]

I know from a gamer's perspective claiming that physics is just a matter of opinion and preference is fashionable, however inaccurate. One doesn't need a degree in physics to know what the basic flaws were in the past two iterations of the game.

yes Johnnypenso, I remember your name as a "WMD" member from Project Cars, is that you? I hope you are not basing your gamer knowledge of what you think is flawed from what you experienced in a different game.

These disagree.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorary_degree
http://www.formsofaddress.info/Degree_Honorary.html
http://theconversation.com/why-do-we-still-hand-out-honorary-academic-titles-66484

No, they don't disagree. Kas has received the Honorary, it is not up to you to determine that he is not a doctor.

 

[rex1825]

yes Johnnypenso, I remember your name as a "WMD" member from Project Cars, is that you? I hope you are not basing your gamer knowledge of what you think is flawed from what you experienced in a different game.



No, they don't disagree. Kas has received the Honorary, it is not up to you to determine that he is not a doctor.

...doctor of what?

 

[Scaff]

it is not up to you to determine that he is not a doctor.

He's not a Doctor, he has an honorary doctorate.

 

[Johnnypenso]

yes Johnnypenso, I remember your name as a "WMD" member from Project Cars, is that you? I hope you are not basing your gamer knowledge of what you think is flawed from what you experienced in a different game.

If there was a member with the same name in WMD for Project Cars it wasn't me. Not sure how that's relevant though.

 

[CopperySinger]

He's not a Doctor, he has an honorary doctorate.

That just contradicted your own statement.

Scaff you do don't have to recognize his accomplishments outside his university field of study but to say he is "not a doctor" is false.

 

[marcvic]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorary_degree

https://priceonomics.com/why-do-colleges-give-out-honorary-degrees/

While they are allowed to, it's often frowned upon to use the prefix "Dr."

But - if your contribution to a field or society is so great that you are awarded an honorary doctorate, that, on some levels, is more impressive than having gone through the process by the traditional means IMO.

 

[Scaff]

That just contradicted your own statement.

Scaff you do don't have to recognize his accomplishments outside his university field of study but to say he is "not a doctor" is false.

No it doesn't.

An honorary doctorate does not indicate that the individual has completed the work required to hold the position of a doctor. You will find no practicing medical doctor who has only an honoury doctorate. Nor will any university of other educational body other than the one who issued the honarary refer to the individual as Dr.

It is an honorary recognition of the work someone has done in a field, not a recognition of educational or academic qualification. When mentioning them on a CV you would not list one under Qualifications (as its not a qualification), but under Honours and Achievement (as that;s what it is). An honourary degree hold no academic status, it is, as the name clearly says an honourary given for the recognition of work in a field, not of academic achievement or standing.

It never has been.

 

[TamasToth]

While I would agree with you in regard to vision, VR on the PS4 just isn't good enough for the money currently, on PC its a different story.

However with regard to tactile, it not just my hands that feel it, far from it. My rig is isolated and the tactile unit attached directly under it. As a result I feel it throughout my entire body, from the shifter and pedals vibrating from the engine, to curbs being felt on the correct side, to impacts and off track excisions (going off track and into the gravel in some titles will have the entire rig shaking). Dog-boxes gear changes can be felt as they should) and landing a big jump in rally titles will give a good thump in the backside and back.

OK. What’s your estimation, how many users has got this kind of rig you described? How big fragment of the number required for the product to be considered successful on the market?
Another question: do you feel the belt on your chest while braking? Do your neck need to be stressed as the lateral G-s and the helmet’s weight effects? In case of any “no”, then a feedback is missing. So if I give you every parameter real, than you have to be better than the real-life driver to achieve the same result.

Anyway, I’m quite sure we understand each other, and its all about that balance of realism and playability.

 

[marcvic]

Kaz/PD didn't invent the wheel with racing sims, but they definitely added some rubber for grip, decided to make it out of light-weight materials and slot holes in them for weight savings. A well-deserved honor.

Kaz joins an illustrious list of past honorary doctorate winners.

Spoiler: Spoiler

Dr. P Diddy. Dr. Alec Baldwin. Dr. Kanye West. Dr. Yoko Ono. Dr. Captain Kirk. Dr. Ed Sheeran. Dr. Jeremy Clarkson. Dr. Mike Tyson. Dr. Chaka Khan. Pretty much anyone famous can get an honorary doctorate these days. Personally I've always looked on them more as publicity stunts for the institution.

You forgot the most illustrious of past honorees:

 

[Scaff]

OK. What’s your estimation, how many users has got this kind of rig you described? How big fragment of the number required for the product to be considered successful on the market?

I honestly have no idea.

Another question: do you feel the belt on your chest while braking? Do your neck need to be stressed as the lateral G-s and the helmet’s weight effects? In case of any “no”, then a feedback is missing.

Not mine, but ones that do just that exist.

So if I give you every parameter real, than you have to be better than the real-life driver to achieve the same result.

I would have to disagree, as a very high number of the missing forces don't make it easier in reality, but harder.

Most people who have never experienced driving a race spec car on a track at pace have no idea just how violent it is (fast road driving doesn't come even remotely close), and how much effort is required simply to counter the forces of driving. As much as they give you additional information, they are also an extra distraction you have to deal with. As such even if we 100% physics fidelity, the sim driver has some advantages that the real ones doesn't.

Anyway, I’m quite sure we understand each other, and its all about that balance of realism and playability.

Indeed it is, and its about what balance each person feels more comfortable with.

 

[Scaff]

Scaff you do don't have to recognize his accomplishments outside his university field of study but to say he is "not a doctor" is false.

He's not.

I can assure you 100% that no university would employ him as a Doctor, as he doesn't hold a full academic doctorate.

Kaz hold an honory doctorate (and I actually have zero issue with that - so please do not infer that I do), not a full academic doctorate.

 

[TamasToth]

I honestly have no idea.


Not mine, but ones that do just that exist.


I would have to disagree, as a very high number of the missing forces don't make it easier in reality, but harder.

Most people who have never experienced driving a race spec car on a track at pace have no idea just how violent it is (fast road driving doesn't come even remotely close), and how much effort is required simply to counter the forces of driving. As much as they give you additional information, they are also an extra distraction you have to deal with. As such even if we 100% physics fidelity, the sim driver has some advantages that the real ones doesn't.


Indeed it is, and its about what balance each person feels more comfortable with.

You’re right again with the distracting effects in real racing (for example the shake of a formula-type cars suspension. The lack of it - to be exact but it should be brave to make them equal with the negative (or makes-it-harder) effect of the lack of feedbacks, sensible impacts. To be honest I can not judge if it is more or less, I just think it is another prove of the hard-to-find balance needed - and this need varies individually, to make it more complex.

It seems your opinion is worth reading; what do you think about GTS’s “rally” behaviour? How do you feel the so-called rally cars on gravel?

Edit: I mentioned hard suspension shake because of its effect of even visibility problems.

 

[CopperySinger]

No it doesn't.

An honorary doctorate does not indicate that the individual has completed the work required to hold the position of a doctor. You will find no practicing medical doctor who has only an honoury doctorate. Nor will any university of other educational body other than the one who issued the honarary refer to the individual as Dr.

It is an honorary recognition of the work someone has done in a field, not a recognition of educational or academic qualification. When mentioning them on a CV you would not list one under Qualifications (as its not a qualification), but under Honours and Achievement (as that;s what it is). An honourary degree hold no academic status, it is, as the name clearly says an honourary given for the recognition of work in a field, not of academic achievement or standing.

It never has been.

just because he did not go to the school to earn be a doctor in his profession this way does not mean you can discredit it.

It is not a connection to other studies beyond this realm, he mastered auto simulation outside of the school that recognized his works.

So when you undermine the technology of Gran Turismo and topics covering auto simulation you should have some solid credentials to back what you say. PS, scaff posting youtube videos of yourself ranting personal issues with the game or community does not refute the technology behind Gran Turismo.

 

[ImaRobot]

just because he did not go to the school to earn be a doctor in his profession this way does not mean you can discredit it.

"Just because he didn't go to school to be a doctor doesn't mean he can't be a doctor!"

Did you really just use that as a retort?

 

[Scaff]

just because he did not go to the school to earn be a doctor in his profession this way does not mean you can discredit it.

It is not a connection to other studies beyond this realm, he mastered auto simulation outside of the school that recognized his works.

I'm not attempting to discredit anything, I'm stating an objective fact.

An honorary doctorate is not the same as an academic doctorate.

Supporting evidence to show this to objectively the case has been repeated shown.

So when you undermine the technology of Gran Turismo and topics covering auto simulation you should have some solid credentials to back what you say. PS, scaff posting youtube videos of yourself ranting personal issues with the game or community does not refute the technology behind Gran Turismo.

I will post what I like within the AUP, but it's interesting that the point of that particular video went totally over your head.

Nor does Kaz's honorary doctorate now exempt GT from critical analysis of its physics engine and tyre model.

 

[NewRedGuard]

To teach (or whatever) you would still need to pass state exam + join the professional register, but honorary degrees in Italy absolutely give you the title of Doctor.