Drugs

[smellysocks12]

Communism was very good in theory as well, the implementation simply didn't work because that is not how the nature of people works. It's the same with the prohibition.


The prohibition wasn't ended only because of the high costs, as a matter of fact, the mafia probably would have paid the police for the government if they had the opportunity, because huge profit can be made from illegal alcohol. Many other factors / problems played a role in this. At least some clear minded people in the government did see that prohibition was the wrong way to go, or else America would still have been ruled by the Mafia.



Drugs shouldn't be legalized because of liberty only, as a matter of fact, that's one of the least important things in this problem.

 

[ledhed]

Prohibition FAILS because the people being prohibited laugh at the stupid law and do it anyway . Then prohibition becomes oppression because the prohibited ones need to be punished to prevent them from doing something they want to do TO THEMSELVES . Prohibition has never worked ..even with a DEATH sentence you still have persons who will use and sell drugs. The pot laws are foolish and do not meet the criteria of a balanced punishment to suit the crime. It is important that laws MAKE SENSE unless of course you live in a friggin police state and do not give a crap. That is why it is so important to be able to explain WHY BEER IS LEGAL AND POT IS NOT. Stupid unenforcable laws UNDERMINE society and respect for law and order more than drugs ever will . BTW you do realise that to prohibit the consumption of alcohol a CONSTITUTIONAL AMMENDMENT had to be passed and another put into effect to repeal it. So a constitutional right had to be taken away and then given back. So again Why is beer legal and pot not ?
Brian I posted the minority etc. comments to reflect what was at the time of the passing of most pot laws THE GIVEN REASON OF SOME LEGISLATORS for the law . They claimed that pot corrupted young white women into association with " undesireable elements " Blacks and immigrants etc. depending on the location. Face it PEOPLE DID THINK THAT WAY . IT HAPPENED . thats why its important to see the ORIGIONAL reasons and debates over all of our drug laws . History is important .
You cant have a society based on LAW if the laws do not meet high standards . look at the numbers for pot use in this country . Staggering are they not ? And thats only those that care to participate in an invasion of privacy. you know what they said about the 55 MPH speed limit ? That the people voted with there feet...the right one specificaly..one of the most stupid and unenforcable laws ever passed . Pot laws to me are no friggin different . Stupid -stupid laws. And yes I put using pot in the same catagory as going faster than the speed limit. Except overdoing pot WONT KILL YOU .

 

[MrktMkr1986]

Prohibition FAILS because the people being prohibited laugh at the stupid law and do it anyway .

In your opinion.

Then prohibition becomes oppression because the prohibited ones need to be punished to prevent them from doing something they want to do TO THEMSELVES .

Have you ever heard of the Butterfly Effect? (and I'm not talking about the movie, either)

Prohibition has never worked ..even with a DEATH sentence you still have persons who will use and sell drugs.

That would dramatically "thin the herd".

The pot laws are foolish and do not meet the criteria of a balanced punishment to suit the crime.

Since pot laws are foolish, instead of legalizing pot, why not cut production?

It is important that laws MAKE SENSE unless of course you live in a friggin police state and do not give a crap.

Now we're back to that again... Do you really believe that the world is that Black/White? You seem to believe that if people are not given total personal freedom that they are living in an authoritarian society...

That is why it is so important to be able to explain WHY BEER IS LEGAL AND POT IS NOT.

I said it already -- social acceptance. That doesn't make it good thing, though -- for slavery was also socially accepted.

Stupid unenforcable laws UNDERMINE society and respect for law and order more than drugs ever will .

I will concede that so-called "stupid unenforcable laws" undermine society. However, drugs will do even more harm than that.

BTW you do realise that to prohibit the consumption of alcohol a CONSTITUTIONAL AMMENDMENT had to be passed and another put into effect to repeal it. So a constitutional right had to be taken away and then given back. So again Why is beer legal and pot not ?

Social acceptance. Hopefully when people realize that the costs of alcohol consumption are far greater than their benefits, it will be outlawed as well -- at least for ingestion.

Brian I posted the minority etc. comments to reflect what was at the time of the passing of most pot laws THE GIVEN REASON OF SOME LEGISLATORS for the law . They claimed that pot corrupted young white women into association with " undesireable elements " Blacks and immigrants etc. depending on the location. Face it PEOPLE DID THINK THAT WAY . IT HAPPENED . thats why its important to see the ORIGIONAL reasons and debates over all of our drug laws . History is important .

I'm aware. And I believe history to be very important as well -- it's just that when I first read the comment it sounded rather racist. No need to explain it, though, I understand now.

You cant have a society based on LAW if the laws do not meet high standards . look at the numbers for pot use in this country . Staggering are they not ? And thats only those that care to participate in an invasion of privacy.

Alcohol and cigarette consumption is considerably higher than marijuana consumption. The reason is because the alcohol and cigarettes are legal. If cigarettes and alcohol were as taxed as they should be, the US wouldn't have to ask the Senate for $81 billion to go to war. Drug legalization will not help with economics -- it'll only make it worse. And since when does privacy become more important than safety?

you know what they said about the 55 MPH speed limit ? That the people voted with there feet...the right one specificaly..one of the most stupid and unenforcable laws ever passed .

The 55mph speed limit was not a nationally enforced law. It was up to the state to decide the speed limits. So much for devolution...

Pot laws to me are no friggin different .

You're right. It should be up to the state. Which leads me to my next point. In 1975, the Alaskan Supreme Court ruled that pot was legal for private use (4oz or something). I'm curious as to what prompted the sudden changeback to criminalization in 1988. I wonder why Needle Park was created (in 1986, the year I was born!!! ) and then shut down all of a sudden in 1992.

Stupid -stupid laws. And yes I put using pot in the same catagory as going faster than the speed limit. Except overdoing pot WONT KILL YOU .

You're right. It would take about 40,000 joints to OD on marijuana. I did my research. However, I did enough research to the point where I could come to the conclusion that legalization's costs would outweigh the benefits. Switzerland realized it with Needle Park, Alaska realized in 1988, and hopefully everyone will realize it with this post. I'm not saying legalization is ALL BAD. There is no such thing as an all bad solution, in my opinion. However, there are pros and cons to everything and anything. In the case of drug legalization, there is more bad than good.

 

[Swift]

I'm with Brian on this one. As it would certianly be "easier" to legalize pot. I'm more in favor of education people as to why it's bad. It's simply not worth have society drop a leve because we got lazy.

 

[Danoff]

I'm with Brian on this one. As it would certianly be "easier" to legalize pot. I'm more in favor of education people as to why it's bad. It's simply not worth have society drop a leve because we got lazy.

What does this mean "drop a level"? Some people would think that society would be gaining a level. I'm not following you here, you're imposing a judgement call of your own on other people. You're effectively saying "I know what's right for my neighbor" - and you can't.

Brian has answered the alcohol question, he thinks alcohol should be illegal. Now what about you? Do you think alcohol should be legal but pot not legal? Keep in mind that they serve wine at communion and that alcohol is one vice that the church endorses.

 

[Swift]

What does this mean "drop a level"? Some people would think that society would be gaining a level. I'm not following you here, you're imposing a judgement call of your own on other people. You're effectively saying "I know what's right for my neighbor" - and you can't.

Brian has answered the alcohol question, he thinks alcohol should be illegal. Now what about you? Do you think alcohol should be legal but pot not legal? Keep in mind that they serve wine at communion and that alcohol is one vice that the church endorses.

Ah, but what church? Not mine. And not the world church that my church belongs to. So please don't jump to conclusions.

Yes, I think alcohol and pot should be illegal. Alcohol needs to be illegal for obvious reasons. Pot just makes people lazy and careless. Look at the hippie movement of the 60's. All they did was get high and listen to music. That's it, didn't really "do" anything. That's a rather weak society. A bunch of people high just hanging out.

I can't say that according to YOUR logic. But here's the deal. If I KNOW something is going to harm my neighbor I'm going to do my best to stop him from doing it. If his house is on fire, I'm not about to keep walking thinking,"well, he knew it might burn down. He shouldn't have been smoking pot" I'm going to call the fire company and do what I can to help. By letting my neighbor smoke pot(or anything else for that matter) I am knowingly letting them do direct harm to themselves. That goes against my code of more ethics and logic. If it works with yours that's fine. But don't tell me I can't have a different set of morals because I can.

 

[a6m5]

What does this mean "drop a level"? Some people would think that society would be gaining a level. I'm not following you here, you're imposing a judgement call of your own on other people. You're effectively saying "I know what's right for my neighbor" - and you can't.

Sorry to jump in middle of the conversation, but I just wanted to say I agree with Swift. You look at people who do drugs, and people who doesn't do drugs. In average, which lead more productive, healthy lives? By promoting (illegal)drug use by legalizing them, how is it hard to believe that we might experience a "drop" in the level. I don't think this has nothing to do with judging your neighbor, it's common sense.

Keep in mind that they serve wine at communion and that alcohol is one vice that the church endorses.

Doesn't the bible say something about how you may drink, but not enough to get drunk(really drunk)?

 

[Danoff]

I don't think this has nothing to do with judging your neighbor, it's common sense.

It has everything to do with judging your neighbor. You think it's common sense that drugs are bad becuase you've been told that your whole life. But your neighbor may not agree with you. As long as he's not hurting you what right do you have to judge his behavior?

 

[Swift]

It has everything to do with judging your neighbor. You think it's common sense that drugs are bad becuase you've been told that your whole life. But your neighbor may not agree with you. As long as he's not hurting you what right do you have to judge his behavior?

Ah yes, the creedo of the libertarians. Well, last time I checked. We were a society. and if one part of the society starts to decay or decline, it effects us all. I know you would like for all the drug users to just die off so we can have our prestine country. But that's not going to happen, especially if drugs are made legal.

 

[Danoff]

Ah yes, the creedo of the libertarians. Well, last time I checked. We were a society. and if one part of the society starts to decay or decline, it effects us all. I know you would like for all the drug users to just die off so we can have our prestine country. But that's not going to happen, especially if drugs are made legal.

So you have a right now to make society the way you want it? You have a right to force society to exist in a state that you consider not to be decay? Sure it affects you, but that doesn't mean you have a right to control it.

No I wouldn't not like for all drug users to just die off. I don't mind drug users as long as the don't interfere with my life. I don't see why anyone can mind drug users if they don't interfere with their lives.

 

[Swift]

No I wouldn't not like for all drug users to just die off. I don't mind drug users as long as the don't interfere with my life. I don't see why anyone can mind drug users if they don't interfere with their lives.

That's an exceptionally ignorant statement. They WILL interfere with your life. Whether it be on the road, at your work place or possibly in tax spending. But it will effect your life. You'd simply be forced to tolerate it. Sounds to me there's a lot of tolerating going on in the world of the Libertarian. I'm all for tolerance, but that doesn't mean I have to sit around and like it, agree with it, endorse it or allow it to continue.

 

[Famine]

Sorry to jump in middle of the conversation, but I just wanted to say I agree with Swift. You look at people who do drugs, and people who doesn't do drugs. In average, which lead more productive, healthy lives? By promoting (illegal)drug use by legalizing them, how is it hard to believe that we might experience a "drop" in the level.

98% of all £20 notes circulating in the City of London area have traces of cocaine on.

It seems many of our investment bankers and financiers - the people who effectively keep the economy of a country moving - do drugs and lead productive healthy lives.

Not that I'm advocating cocaine use, of course. I choose to live my life without it. But it doesn't mean I'd forego my ability to make millions of pounds a year if I choose to snort cocaine.

Look at the hippie movement of the 60's. All they did was get high and listen to music. That's it, didn't really "do" anything. That's a rather weak society. A bunch of people high just hanging out.

And yet in the 60s we experienced the largest technological highs ever seen. We put men onto another world, we sent fee-paying passengers to twice the speed of sound (breaking the speed of day in the process), we brought mass foreign travel to new levels with the 747, the car was brought to the masses... That's a strong society.

What a message. Get the druggies high and happy so that the rest of us can concentrate on doing things.

 

[ledhed]

That's an exceptionally ignorant statement. They WILL interfere with your life. Whether it be on the road, at your work place or possibly in tax spending. But it will effect your life. You'd simply be forced to tolerate it. Sounds to me there's a lot of tolerating going on in the world of the Libertarian. I'm all for tolerance, but that doesn't mean I have to sit around and like it, agree with it, endorse it or allow it to continue.

no swift that ^ is an extraordinary ignorent statement along with this one ;

Look at the hippie movement of the 60's. All they did was get high and listen to music. That's it, didn't really "do" anything. That's a rather weak society. A bunch of people high just hanging out.

.
if you have not learned by now that you must judge each individual on what they do and not put people into groups to be judged collectively than your blissfull ignorance will continue unabated. The list of people who have gone through a lifetime using beer or wine or pot or valium or prozac or caffiene or countless other DRUGS without effecting your life or any one elses is a long one.
close minded busy bodies who think they know whats best for everyone else will degrade society more than any drug ever will.

 

[Swift]

no swift that ^ is an extraordinary ignorent statement along with this one ; .
if you have not learned by now that you must judge each individual on what they do and not put people into groups to be judged collectively than your blissfull ignorance will continue unabated. The list of people who have gone through a lifetime using beer or wine or pot or valium or prozac or caffiene or countless other DRUGS without effecting your life or any one elses is a long one.
close minded busy bodies who think they know whats best for everyone else will degrade society more than any drug ever will.

Right, judge people on what they individually do. Give them all the tools, but hold them personally reasponsible. How do you think we could possibly keep people off drugs if they were legal? We couldn't. That's what I don't get. Look at the example of Alaska. All kinds of teens were just high as a kite. Is that worth it just so we can have the individual maximum freedom? I'm thinking no.

I'm not willing to let the country be bogged down by a bunch of potheads because some people think they should have the freedom to do so. I think our poverty, education and homeless situations are bad enough as it is without having to through drugs in the mix.

And yet in the 60s we experienced the largest technological highs ever seen. We put men onto another world, we sent fee-paying passengers to twice the speed of sound (breaking the speed of day in the process), we brought mass foreign travel to new levels with the 747, the car was brought to the masses... That's a strong society.

What a message. Get the druggies high and happy so that the rest of us can concentrate on doing things.

And there is a direct coorilation between those events and drugs because what?

 

[ledhed]

How are you keeping them off drugs now ? How do you explain to , or convince someone they have not the right to do what they want with thier own body ?

 

[Swift]

How are you keeping them off drugs now ?

I didn't say I was. What I'm saying is that legal drugs only add to the problems, not solve them.

 

[Famine]

And there is a direct coorilation between those events and drugs because what?

And there is a direct correlation between drug use and being useless to society because what?

 

[Swift]

Same as the one which links drug use to being useless to society.

Ah, but I never said all of society would be useless. I said that it would certainly bring down certain sections of it. And it will, should it be legalized. The upper middle class in America would almost without a doubt disappear. There's a reason drugs are illegal, and if we make them legal then we're going to see those reasons blasted in our face.

You know what I don't like, when people say things like "Pot isn't that bad" or "Alcohol is OK in moderation. Don't judge me cause Joe Blow killed a little girl while driving drunk!" Yeah, that's fair, I get to worry about you being totally stupid in public places while high because it's your freedom to get high. Yeah, that sounds like a good plan.

 

[ledhed]

Would it not be better to ask yourself WHY someone uses drugs ? Then when you have answer to the cause of the problem you can address that . Cure the cause not the symptoms .

Ah, but I never said all of society would be useless. I said that it would certainly bring down certain sections of it. And it will, should it be legalized. The upper middle class in America would almost without a doubt disappear. There's a reason drugs are illegal, and if we make them legal then we're going to see those reasons blasted in our face.

legal beer and other drinks have not seemed to bring down any part of society . so why would legal pot ?

I get to worry about you being totally stupid in public places while high because it's your freedom to get high. Yeah, that sounds like a good plan.

I get to risk people being stupid all the time ...since when do they need drugs ?
Risking people being stupid is what happens when you live among them.

 

[Swift]

Would it not be better to ask yourself WHY someone uses drugs ? Then when you have answer to the cause of the problem you can address that . Cure the cause not the symptoms .
legal beer and other drinks have not seemed to bring down any part of society .

Except for the 50,000 bodies lining the roads from alcohol related accidents.

The libertarian theme is to each his own. So, I can't cure the cause because I can't get into that part of a person's life. It's very obvious that people do drugs for very personal reasons. If we can't get to those reasons, we'll never stop the cause. So which was is it going to be?

 

[ledhed]

So go buy an island and ask all the like minded people such as yourself to join the Swift and Co. dictatorship. You will be free to have them all live as you choose .

 

[Famine]

Ah, but I never said all of society would be useless. I said that it would certainly bring down certain sections of it. And it will, should it be legalized.

And I pointed out that the people driving the UK's economy - and most likely other economies throughout the world - take cocaine recreationally.

So how is that section of society useless or "brought down" when it's moving our - strengthening - economy.


Stupidity is a far bigger killer on the roads than, say , pethidine dependency, dope or alochol.

 

[Swift]

So go buy an island and ask all the like minded people such as yourself to join the Swift and Co. dictatorship. You will be free to have them all live as you choose .

What was that about.....man, that was a bit extreme.

 

[ledhed]

Yes, I think alcohol and pot should be illegal. Alcohol needs to be illegal for obvious reasons

You are overlooking the billions of people all over the world who use beer and other drinks without harming anyone . You would deny them thier right to act in a responsible manner and to act as the steward of thier own bodys because of a tiny minority of people who have made a mistake and acted stupidly. You are well on your way to establishing your own dictatorship...you after all know whats best for every one. They can have what ever rights you deem they need .
Do you see my point yet ?

 

[emad]

Alcohol and Marijuana are both bad for you and they're intoxicants. Lets assume we ban them. Let's see what people have in their homes to get stoned, buzzed, or into a general altered state of mind as well as things that are just plain bad for you, shall we?

here's a small list:

• Aerosol sprays - Forget to open a window or let the kids sniff 'em and someone will get a buzz and kill some brain cells.
• Gasoline - sniff the fumes for a brain cell killing buzz
• NyQuil - strong and effective cold medicine, but hey. Drink a bit extra and enjoy the stoned state.
• Sugar - Can't have our kids getting hyper now, can we? Sugar is an addictive stimulant, tastes good, and gives people energy. But it's bad for your teeth, too much is bad for your body, and it creates hyperactive kids and it. Should we ban it? I mean, after all, far too many people in the US are overweight, right? Lets take this away from them
• Caffeine - effective stimulant found in chocolate, soda, and coffee. Causes for hyperactive kids, helps reduce headaches to a minor extent, and of course, we can't forget hyperactive kids addicted to their soda. And of course, our co-workers who can't stay awake without it.
• Prozac - Antidepressant. One of the most prescribed drugs on the market. It's primary purpose is to put you into an altered state of mind so that you're chemically forced to be happy. I mean, why have them go through psychiatric help when you can load them up with antidepressants, right?
• Ritalin - Parents give their kids too much soda and sugar and they wonder where they went wrong. Take them to the doctor and grab some Ritalin to chemically make them more calm and focussed. Great job 👍
• Pain Killers - many contain regulated opiates. Take enough and you're almost guaranteed to be in a physical and mental state not unlike that of Opium. And don't forget, that advil you're taking for your headaches is probably going to make you feel more relaxed.
• Poppy Seeds!! - Yep, poppy seeds. Used in your food, but did you know that enough poppy seeds in your system will make you fail a urine test? Did you also know that poppy seeds can be used to make opium?
• Nitrous Oxide (laughing gas) - found in whipped cream canisters. Flip it upside down and let it spray

While we're banning any drugs and mind altering substances, should we ban this stuff as well? Regular household things can be used to get you more stoned than marijuana ever will. Yet since the inception of these products, we rarely ever hear about users of this stuff. This stuff is all legal, but WOW, no reports of addiction!! So LETS ban the alcohol and marijuana. These things all work stronger and some of them work faster - kids will find their weed alternative in their own homes. Hell, way too many children are already so addicted to sugar and soda that they look and act as though they were on crack.

Hell, screw that. I can set up my own meth lab with the chemicals found in most people's garages and basements. Wanna get drunk? No problem. Find me a canister, we'll mash some grapes and let them rot in someone's basement. Ban it or not, there's always going to be an alternative solution and someone is ALWAYS going to find a way to make profit from it because someone somewhere WILL want to get stoned. You can't stop a person from wanting something no matter how hard you try. Impose the death penalty if you want. Go ahead. People will still want it and if the supply goes down, they'll be willing to pay more. If it comes to it, they'll be willing to commit bigger crimes to get their hands on it.

I really would like to know how you would like to go about stop the 50% of 12th graders in the US who have used Marijuana in the past year.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

It has everything to do with judging your neighbor. You think it's common sense that drugs are bad becuase you've been told that your whole life. But your neighbor may not agree with you. As long as he's not hurting you what right do you have to judge his behavior?

You are purposely ignoring the Butterfly Effect.

 

[Danoff]

You are purposely ignoring the Butterfly Effect.

the butterfly effect doesn't give you the right to control other people.

 

[Famine]

Besides, what if, one day, you decide NOT to snort crack? Then you're 7 seconds earlier than usual and run over a little girl on the way to work who'd usually be on the other side of the road, who would have grown up to be the next Rosamund Franklin.


"What if" is not a good reason to finagle control over people's private lives.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

Would it not be better to ask yourself WHY someone uses drugs ?

Peer pressure and escapism. THOSE ARE THE ONLY REASONS WHY PEOPLE DO DRUGS FOR RECREATION.

Then when you have answer to the cause of the problem you can address that . Cure the cause not the symptoms .

Peer pressure = find new friends; get a role model; think about your future
Escapism = therapy

legal beer and other drinks have not seemed to bring down any part of society .

WHAT?! 100,000 people DIE in alcohol-related incidents every year. How can it NOT bring down society?

so why would legal pot ?

Refer back to the Butterfly Effect. Next, relate it to other HARDER drugs. There is your answer.

I get to risk people being stupid all the time ...since when do they need drugs ?
Risking people being stupid is what happens when you live among them.

Telling them drugs are OK, is only going to INCREASE that risk. Is that what you want?

the butterfly effect doesn't give you the right to control other people.

You're absolutely right -- it doesn't give me the right to control other people. I'll leave that to the state.

Besides, what if, one day, you decide NOT to snort crack? Then you're 7 seconds earlier than usual and run over a little girl on the way to work who'd usually be on the other side of the road, who would have grown up to be the next Rosamund Franklin.

"What if" is not a good reason to finagle control over people's private lives.

You're right. What if is not a good reason to finagle control over people's private lives.

450,000 people died from cigarettes.
160,000 people are treated for marijuana addiction.
100,000 people died in alcohol-related incidents

and cocaine deaths DOUBLE as prices decrease.

 

[Famine]

Telling them drugs are OK, is only going to INCREASE that risk. Is that what you want?

There's a massive gulf between decriminalisation (or even legalisation) of some comparatively harmless drugs (caffeine is of the order of 500 times more potent than crack) and telling people it's okay to use them.

Cigarettes are legal, and people are badgered at all turns with people telling them it's wrong to smoke.