DTM4 - Race 6 (1/11@20:30GMT) GP/F *Season Finale*

Choose the 6 tracks for DTM4.


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Yipi :cheers:

Lap 25/26 or whatever I believe DJ let me through because the leaderboard showed that I wasn't behind him so he thought I was a lap behind but I wasn't. TBH I thought he got damage or something wasn't sure but I wasn't hanging about to ask him. I feel bad for DJ he really did have that race in the bag and deserved the win.

I did let you through green. I thought you were a lap down. From when I overtook JT coming out of the pits I was 1st on my screen for the whole race. Including getting the "djdaveyp85 has crossed the finish line in 1st place with 1 lap remaining" message on the penultimate lap. It wasn't until I crossed the finish line I showed up in third. I'm pretty angry but it wasn't your fault. However, you probably wouldn't have caught me in the first place if I didn't have to race the last 10 or so laps with damage caused by biffyclyros ridiculous dive up the inside of me into a fast corner. Needs investigating tbh. So does toyots lunge on me as well.

If that's the quality of connection I'm going to get I cba racing next season.

Well done green. Not your fault what happened.
 
Thanks davey.... from what I hear the Leaderboard/Timing issue has something to do with the new update 2.0 which is a shame cause it ruined what could have been an epic battle. I hope you race next season m8 your a good driver and it's a pleasure to race with you.
 
Well, TBH, a protest needs to be reported within 24 hours from race start. But since this race was about the championship and your story sounds very odd I think we should take a look at it.

What I understand is there are two issues.
1 Your leader-board/timing system screwed up. I like to see your replay and will send you a dropbox invite so you can upload it.
2 Encounters with biffyclyros and toyotsupra. I need to know the lap nr./time of race, what happened and what rule was broken? You can email that to gt5dtm@gmail.com
 
sympsymp
Well, TBH, a protest needs to be reported within 24 hours from race start. But since this race was about the championship and your story sounds very odd I think we should take a look at it.

What I understand is there are two issues.
1 Your leader-board/timing system screwed up. I like to see your replay and will send you a dropbox invite so you can upload it.
2 Encounters with biffyclyros and toyotsupra. I need to know the lap nr./time of race, what happened and what rule was broken? You can email that to gt5dtm@gmail.com

It was bad lag nothing more to say that stopped me from overtaking Goruk I believe which was when I was at my fastest fuel was very low and soft tires at that point in the race...
 
Well, TBH, a protest needs to be reported within 24 hours from race start. But since this race was about the championship and your story sounds very odd I think we should take a look at it.


2 Encounters with biffyclyros and toyotsupra. I need to know the lap nr./time of race, what happened and what rule was broken? You can email that to gt5dtm@gmail.com

What for??
Penalty for Biffy or Toyota is not out there that will win the Champ, or will get a time bonus? loool, or is gonna have bonus time?? Loool

In Rome happened to me and discourages me completely for the rest of the season. I tried to minimize the damage in Monza but I ended up committing a fatal error



1 Your leader-board/timing system screwed up. I like to see your replay and will send you a dropbox invite so you can upload it.
You should not have thought they had been so easily!!!
 
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WTF Pipi, why wouldn't I believe the information on the screen in front of me? It has never happened before. I know it doesn't change the outcome, but if you drive like an idiot, you should be punished.

At the end of the day, even though I thought Green was lapped, if I didn't have damage from Biffy I wouldn't have been caught from him, for the rest of the race I had been pulling away from everybody. So I had my championship chances ruined by somebody not in the fight.
 
WTF Pipi, why wouldn't I believe the information on the screen in front of me? It has never happened before. I know it doesn't change the outcome, but if you drive like an idiot, you should be punished.

At the end of the day, even though I thought Green was lapped, if I didn't have damage from Biffy I wouldn't have been caught from him, for the rest of the race I had been pulling away from everybody. So I had my championship chances ruined by somebody not in the fight.


And i now that davey, it's happening to me all the time, but the true is, nothing change, the people had no carefuller and some times the mistakes happens or is pure lag, i don't no what happen with you and supra or with biffy , but if happening a penalty maybe is more than fair. but your champ is gone!!!

For me the great problem is the guys need to understand if one championship or a race is in stake, try escape out of confusion to not ruin the races of others!!!:ouch:
 
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WTF Pipi, why wouldn't I believe the information on the screen in front of me? It has never happened before. I know it doesn't change the outcome, but if you drive like an idiot, you should be punished.

At the end of the day, even though I thought Green was lapped, if I didn't have damage from Biffy I wouldn't have been caught from him, for the rest of the race I had been pulling away from everybody. So I had my championship chances ruined by somebody not in the fight.

Now you are just milking it. I've not commented on this in the last few days as I honestly don't remember such an incident, when I see it for myself I will give you a good answer. However, I don't plough recklessly into people, I make risky moves but I can always make them work proving there is a bit of co-operation on the other end. But you're making it sound like I just went up and threw you out of the way. Even though I don't remember such a move, I know for certain that I didn't just crash into you, if you received damage then I'm sorry but if you think you've had it bad in that respect then you should have seen the series through my eyes. I waited patiently behind you for quite a while, there were times I could of forced myself through but I kept waiting until I saw a visible opportunity I could take cleanly. And not in the fight? You were fighting for the championship, I was fighting for the race. Sure the Championship is more important, but that doesn't mean I should just roll over, slow down and pull away. I was going for that win and it was frustrating to be so close and then lose it in the last few laps, but that is racing. I'm going to finish anyway by saying that you weren't so clean yourself. Twice you tried passing me at the last chicane, and twice that you forced me to the outside and didn't give me the room to actually stay clean through the corner because I was on the green stuff. Sad that I actually had to push you to the outside of the exit so that I didn't cut the corner.
 
You went down the inside at turn 5 biffy, causing damage to the left side of my car. Theres no milking it about it. Its a fact. Watch the replay.
 
Actually thats wrong, I've got the incidents mixed up. The turn 5 was toyot, yours was at the chicane at the end of the lap on lap 23, you outbraked yourself and rammed into me. Here a replay link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxQKbjTNoSc

Oh, and heres my yield to green on lap 25. If you look at the data I'm presented with he is lapped according to my data and in last place:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57Tk0kQv2w0

And then on the last lap, I catch biffy again and we have a similar incident at the final chicane yet again resulting in me being rammed by biffy. Yet again he missed the second part of the chicane and rammed me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzcSspq1YaA

So two incidents the same. Its obvious what you did biffy, you had no right to drive like that.
 
Actually thats wrong, I've got the incidents mixed up. The turn 5 was toyot, yours was at the chicane at the end of the lap on lap 23, you outbraked yourself and rammed into me. Here a replay link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxQKbjTNoSc

Oh, and heres my yield to green on lap 25. If you look at the data I'm presented with he is lapped according to my data and in last place:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57Tk0kQv2w0

And then on the last lap, I catch biffy again and we have a similar incident at the final chicane yet again resulting in me being rammed by biffy. Yet again he missed the second part of the chicane and rammed me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzcSspq1YaA

So two incidents the same. Its obvious what you did biffy, you had no right to drive like that.

Sorry but for me you are guilty too, when you go side by side you need to give space to other car, two turn to inside?? where do you want the other car go? just my 5 cents
 
Why should I give a car that is off the track space. His mistake shouldn't cost me time. He has made the mistake so he should yield. He was never going to make the second apex so why shouldn't I take it?
 
Heres the rule governing that:

06: Running into the car ahead of you:


A:
The behind driver must take all necessary care and responsibility not to run into an ahead driver.

B:
In case you brake too late for a corner or partially lose control of your car, but can prevent an accident by steering into the dirt, grass or a wall, you are expected to do so.

C:
The ahead driver must not do any malicious or inappropriate braking or slowing. Leading cars MUST NOT EVER 'brake check' the car(s) behind them because they are following too closely. The ahead driver IS entitled to be slower or use longer and earlier braking zones than others. They are also entitled to turn in earlier or later and/or apex earlier or later.

Specifically rule B here has been broken.
 
Also contravined are Rules:

7A
8D

Also perhaps you need to read rule 10 biffy to see my defensive driving was completely legal. And 12A specifically. And 14A and the whole of rule 15.
 
Lol Davey, so you are always right and the other need to spoke with Copperfield to disappear over there.

and biffy is not out of the track, you are overtaking and not give the necessary space to him.
 
No I'm sorry, but Pipi is perfectly right. You can not expect me to just move out of the way. I maintained the outside of the corner, we were pretty much side-by-side, so you should have gave me the room to make the apex like I did for you at the first part of the corner. You can quote rules all you want, it's commonplace to give room to opposing cars, just because you have edged in front doesn't mean you can disregard their position on the track.

And by milking it, I mean comments such as 'I cost you the championship' and titling your video 'Biffy ramming me'. Please, grow up.
 
I'm not gonna argue about it anymore. You can clearly see you are off the track due to not being able to judge braking distances correctly. In case you are stuck, the track is the bit with tarmac on it. You are on the green rumbly strip stuff, that wouild be off the track.
 
Oh, so we are resorting to sly digs now just because you're not getting the response you expected? If I couldn't judge braking distances correctly I doubt I would have been anywhere near the position I was in, so that is one comment thrown out the window. And just FYI, the 'hard stuff' I was on, the Rumble Strips/Kerb, it's considered legal to have two wheels on that and two wheels on the grass. The green stuff is illegal. Don't think I have to say any more.
 
Ok, guys this don't gonna change anything but at my eyes in both situation between Davey and Biffy, Biffy was ahed at turning point, in the first one, yes he did brake late and lose racing line, but, he was still at front so if Davey had back off a little, contact would be avoid.

On the second situation he did not ramm you Davey, when someone is Overtaking/ being Overtake you can not expect to run the normal race line, and that was what you have done, not giving enough space to Biffy do the chicane on the track.

I would rather give the position away than have damage, you have chosen the other way around.
 
OK, this seems to have been blown out of proportion. Biffy must have been racing with you guys a long time as you are all on the defence for him.

I just want to add to my points made above that I also thought at the time that I was lapping biffy (as well as in the first collision I thought he was unlapping himself). As you can see on the data on my screen! I didn't mean to lose my rag with biffy, and would have left a little more room had I believed we were racing for position, I think the reason I got so angry at the time is because I though biffy had damaged me whilst trying to unlap himself. I was then further infuriated when the game had the audacity to own up to its mistake after I had crossed the line and had done nothing about it. Anybody who wants a copy of my full replay can have a copy because you will see that I completely eased off for the last stint because I thought I had a comfortable lead. I was just saving my tyres!

This aside, I no longer wish to complain about the second incident with myself and biffy as I was trying to force myself past what I thought was a lapping manouvre at the time, so believed that biffy should just "get out of the way". The first incident I still feel was biffys fault as he missed the turn and then failed to yield when he was off the track.

I also want to apologise to biffy for my tone with him. But stand my ground on I feel are his infringements in this incident. It may also be worth looking into making the rules clearer for lapped cars for DTM5? (I know I wasn't lapping biffy but I have had 2 racing incidents with cars trying to unlap themselves this season!)
 
DJDavey, just to let you know that your reported incident is still under investigation. I have sent my opinion to JT and he must make the final call on this.

But I have looked at your replay and must say that it was a very strange incident with your leader board display. What I can make of it is that at the end of lap 9, in your replay, ALL cars went of the track from 19:08 till 19:18. It must have been a connection issue on your side. At that time Green and Biffy past the finish line and your system did not register that and put them at the bottom of the leader board. Since it happened while you were passing the pit lane I can imagine you were thinking you had lapped them.

So it explains that you thought you were dealing with lapped cars during the battles and that you had a reduced pace in the final laps. It's a difficult situation and will not make a judgement about this by myself so I will leave that difficult task to JT :)
 
I'll have a decision for everyone tonight after i go through all the replays and stuff. Havnt seen much of this as i have limited internet and ps3 access after Thursday, hence the reason why incidents need reporting as soon as possible. That wont affect the decision though.

JT

Also would like some more help with re-doing the rules. Need to go through them line by line.
 
Biffy Vs DJ
Lap 23

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxQKbjTNoSc

Incident 1: Final Chicane (Lap 23)
Biffy comes from behind and overtakes DJ into 1st apex. (Fig.1a)
However, Biffy is carrying too much speed into the corner and is unable to make the 2nd apex. DJ leaves enough room for Biffy at middle point of chicane (Fig.1b)
Biffy has all 4 wheels off the track. (Fig.1c). You can also see at the same point DJ’s wheels are pointing away from the 2nd apex and Biffy’s are pointing towards DJ. (Fig.1c1 & 1c2). Contact is made as Biffy returns to the track. (Fig.1d). This forces DJ to the outside and causes damage. (Fig.1e).

Rule(s):
GT5DTM R&R 6.7.3 - Entering the track after crash without waiting for passing traffic.
Depends on circumstance. If it causes another car damage then it may be considered for DQF depending on post incident actions of driver.

GTP OLR 06: Running into the car ahead of you:
B:In case you brake too late for a corner or partially lose control of your car, but can prevent an accident by steering into the dirt, grass or a wall, you are expected to do so.

GTP OLR 15: Re-entering to the track after running off:
A:It is the responsibility of the car returning to the track to ensure there are no collisions so that no other drivers have to maneuver or brake suddenly to allow you to resume racing. If there's a chance of a collision, wait and be patient as other drivers have the right of way.
B:An off track incident includes:
• Being stuck or pinned to a wall or railing.
• More than two tires leaving the track at any one time
• Any situation where the car may lose control and create cross traffic
Result: Having lost control and leaving the track, Biffy caused the damage to DJ’s car by returning to the track without waiting for DJ to pass safely. Could be considered for disqualification, however, due to the speed and lack of space in that particular corner, this was not the appropriate penalty.

Penalty: 30 second penalty (equivalent to 10 second stop and go)

Fig.1a
1a.jpg

Fig.1b
1b.jpg

Fig.1c
1c.jpg

Fig.1c1
1c1.jpg

Fig.1c2
1c2.jpg

Fig.1d
1d.jpg

Fig.1e
1e.jpg



DJ Vs Biffy

Lap 34

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzcSspq1YaA

Incident 2: Final Chicane (Lap 34)
DJ comes from behind and does not overtake Biffy into 1st apex. (Fig.2a).
Biffy gives DJ space to make the 1st apex. (Fig.2b).
DJ continues straight after 1st apex, failing to give Biffy sufficient space at chicane middle point. (Fig.2c).
This forces Biffy off the track. (Fig.2d).
Contact is made as Biffy returns to the track. (Fig.2e)

GTP OLR 05: Rules Governing Car Contact:
B:Pushing other cars in turns or pushing them off the track is strictly prohibited.

GTP OLR 08: Corner Rights:
B:You must establish substantial overlap with the car ahead before they reach the corner’s turn-in point to have the right to drive up their inside, or to expect them to leave inside room for you. At least the front of your car should be up to the driver’s position in the ahead car. The ahead driver has the right to be fully committed to the racing line of their choice without any interference if there was no substantial overlap before he turned in.
C:If sufficient overlap is established before the turn-in point, then the behind driver has the right to sufficient side room. The ahead driver must also leave sufficient side room for the behind driver. This means that each driver has a right to their respective "line", or side of the track, right up to the exit point. Neither driver should squeeze the other toward the inside or outside of the corner during the apex or exit.

Result: DJ caused the contact between the two cars by not leaving sufficient side room for Biffy to successfully make the 2nd apex.

Penalty: 30 second penalty (equivalent to 10 second stop and go)

Fig.2a
2a.jpg

Fig.2b
2b.jpg

Fig.2c
2c.jpg

Fig.2d
2d.jpg

Fig.2e
2e.jpg



DJ and Green
Lap 25

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57Tk0kQv2w0

This was very unfortunate DJ. It was obviously a major misunderstanding caused by a connection issue. However, you made the decision to let Green pass, not anyone else. There is not a lot that can be done about this now. I am very sorry your championship came down to that decision. I can only hope that you can put the incident behind you and take part in DTM V. I'm sure you will win a DTM Championship at some point in the near future with your level of driving.
 
Are you sure about the second incident JT?

The wheels are as far off the track with him as they are for the first incident. I only took the line I too because I beleive he had made the same mistake again and broke too late. Also if you look a the direction his car is pointing in fig 2e you can see that whatever line I would have taken into the second part of the turn, contact would have been made.

I appreciate and respect the time and effort you have gone into reviewing this, I just wanted to give my exact opinion on this.
 
Fig 2b shows biffy wheels turned in ready to take chicane. He only went off track as you continued forwards (fig 2c). I actually think you carried a bit too much speed into that 1st apex just like biffy did in the 1st incident.

Good to see you are in DTM V. Good to have you aboard. 👍
 
Good work JT! The most comprehensive documented decision in the series ever! 👍 I have update the results of race 6 for the record.

Now my fuel problem in the last lap have cost me a 2nd place for the race and 2 places in the overall standings :banghead:
 
^and it didnt take me as long as the 'Jav decision' in DTM1. That took about 5 days....

Ahh yes i saw that. Must remember fuel next time. BTW, you can add 10L of fuel in the time it takes to change your tyres....
 

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