Engine Swap / Drivetrain Swap

[FlourescentBlak]

I think the underlying opinion here is that with the quality work that PD does many of us would rather their rescorces be allocated elsewhere rather than the the high quality realistic approach at something that isn't all that relevent for people who just want to drive a lot of cars, not make an uber best in class monster.

I for one want to test drive cars, not make a winning custom everything uber car.

Ask yourself. In order to implement such features and keep the game balanced in say an excellently engeneered PP system would you want them to put the work in to make it as realistic as possible?

I say I would rather a slew of standard cars upgraded to premium.

 

[analog]

Ask yourself. In order to implement such features and keep the game balanced in say an excellently engeneered PP system would you want them to put the work in to make it as realistic as possible?

I don't see what a balanced PP system has to do with engine swaps as they presumably can be calculated exactly like a car tuned otherwise?
Or am I missing something here? Seems to me the power to weight ratio/tyres, etc. can be calculated in a similar fashion.
If engine swaps were included, and probably within strict limitations, they would have already programmed them in the game ( like turbo's and other tuning upgrades given that the possibilities aren't endless ) wouldn't they?
And engine swaps are a realistic element if implemented correctly as they're a relatively common practice in real life.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

The PP system was already unbalanced in Prologue. If it even is continuing in the full game, I doubt it'll be much better this time. That's without engine swaps...

 

[Negativo]

The cars have those drivetrains for performance reasons, apart from economy cars. Will manafacture allow it anyway?

 

[VXR]

Is driving a car not meant to be fun?

I always hear the argument that Forza is for fun. So what's GT for? Boredom?

You do realise you can be as precise as you like in FM3, because the handling model has nuance in its approach? It's also obtuse to say Forza is too easy to drive, because if you're a decent driver, you'll find that pretty easy, too.

Back on topic; If engine swaps make the cars harder to drive, throw a suspension kit on it and get adjusting the settings until you have it right. It's no different to what you would have to do in the real world. There's absolutely no reason to think of GT as being above realism, because that's utterly ridiculous. Yeah an AWD Viper is pretty dumb, but idiots will always find ways to break any game. You don't have to create such a monster to beat the AI, so it's a stupid online trick for what are essentially cheaters. It did however mean FM3 didn't have bundled engine and drive-train swaps as in FM2. With regards to creating new drive-trains, don't forget that the option is there for creative reasons; if you wanted to make a racer along the lines of the Clio V6 for example, it allows you to. Why is more choice frowned upon?

 

[GoldenGate]

It's a problem b/c many of those 'swap' cars were either so terrible to drive, you regretted wasting your fake $ -or- the car got around the PI system and was faster than everything else in its class.

Sure, physics played a part...but do you really want a game with over a 1000 cars yet only a handful being competitive? No, you don't. Getting your lines right, proper braking, and vehicle tuning should be the method to having a quick ride; not swapping engine A into car X and having a world-beater.

Fair enough, yes, some of the swaps were verging on the fantasy side of things, but I don't see what the problem would be if it was limited to a more realistic option in GT5. Say, keeping engine swaps limited to the same manufacturer and drivetrain swaps something like converting 4WD into RWD. I don't see how people are all for tuning their cars with turbos/superchargers etc. but when it comes to engine swaps they are totally against it. It's a viable option in real life, why not in a game?

I had tonnes of fun swapping a K20A engine into my J's Racing kitted and liveried Honda Fit and tearing round the track in Forza 3. I never once regretted spending virtual money in-game because I knew I could always win them back within a race or two.

I could care less about leaderboards, they just don't do it for me and are usually filled with cheaters/glitchers anyway (speaking generally of course, in no way am I implying GT5P leaderboards are filled with cheaters).

If I want to drop a VR6 into a MK2 Golf, why shouldn't I have the option? You have to way up the positives and negatives when doing an engine swap. The VR6 in a MK2 would leave it nose heavy meaning it will understeer into corners meaning that what you are gaining in power, you are losing in cornering ability.

I'm all for more options in every game I play, which is why I was really hoping for a livery editor in GT5. The more chances to customise the car the more fun people will have with the game, which is why you see such a strong community of painters on the Forza forums.

Everyone keeps going on about how much of a perfectionist Kazunori is, what makes them so afraid of engine swaps? I'm sure if he was to implement engine swaps into Gran Turismo he would do it with as much attention to detail that he puts into the rest of the game (or at least, I hope he would!)

 

[JDMKING13]

The PP system was already unbalanced in Prologue. If it even is continuing in the full game, I doubt it'll be much better this time. That's without engine swaps...

Doesn't really matter to me, because I will race with friends. If it does happen hopefully through updates they can make the cars more balanced.

Fair enough, yes, some of the swaps were verging on the fantasy side of things, but I don't see what the problem would be if it was limited to a more realistic option in GT5. Say, keeping engine swaps limited to the same manufacturer and drivetrain swaps something like converting 4WD into RWD. I don't see how people are all for tuning their cars with turbos/superchargers etc. but when it comes to engine swaps they are totally against it. It's a viable option in real life, why not in a game?

I had tonnes of fun swapping a K20A engine into my J's Racing kitted and liveried Honda Fit and tearing round the track in Forza 3. I never once regretted spending virtual money in-game because I knew I could always win them back within a race or two.

I could care less about leaderboards, they just don't do it for me and are usually filled with cheaters/glitchers anyway (speaking generally of course, in no way am I implying GT5P leaderboards are filled with cheaters).

If I want to drop a VR6 into a MK2 Golf, why shouldn't I have the option? You have to way up the positives and negatives when doing an engine swap. The VR6 in a MK2 would leave it nose heavy meaning it will understeer into corners meaning that what you are gaining in power, you are losing in cornering ability.

I'm all for more options in every game I play, which is why I was really hoping for a livery editor in GT5. The more chances to customise the car the more fun people will have with the game, which is why you see such a strong community of painters on the Forza forums.

Everyone keeps going on about how much of a perfectionist Kazunori is, what makes them so afraid of engine swaps? I'm sure if he was to implement engine swaps into Gran Turismo he would do it with as much attention to detail that he puts into the rest of the game (or at least, I hope he would!)

I agree with you on this man, as long as the swap is realistic I'm down for it I want to swap a K20R In My EG6 bubble and hit a mountain pass up. I think most members would not have a problem with these type of swaps. I don't want those crazy FM3 drive train swaps though it polluted the online experience. Don't get me wrong I mainly do free runs but some times you want to go online and test your skills against human opponent. Every car converted to AWD is I have a strange feeling we might get engine swaps cant wait for GT5.

 

[Sapphire-Wolf]

Just because it's in Forza why is that a problem? Going by that logic we shouldn't have cockpit view, or even cars for that matter!

Way to misinterpret my comment. I didn't say that GT shouldn't have it because Forza does... I simply don't like the way it was implemented in that game (it was fine in 1 like Nish_280Z said but 3 was awful). Anyway if you look at my earlier post you'd see that I said I wanted engine swaps but not drivetrain swaps. Stop tryin' to jump down people's throats.

 

[BrutherSuperior]

Fair enough, yes, some of the swaps were verging on the fantasy side of things, but I don't see what the problem would be if it was limited to a more realistic option in GT5.

(snip)

I posted earlier that updating/backdating a car would be cool "if" the physics are near perfect. So a Mk1 Golf can have a VR6 swapped into it and a MkV golf can get a Mk1 engine (to move down in class?). Things could get very interesting with a system like that.

What I basically fear are people bitching that they cannot put a Supra motor into a BMW even though they've seen it on youtube. Things like AWD Ferraris, RWD TT V8 Fiats, and other absolutely ridiculous swaps 'could' be cool, but with 1000+ cars; I really think that it would be difficult to implement w/o half-assing it.

I'd rather have no swap options than a half-assed system of transplanting engines/drivetrains into only a few cars.

 

[Circuit*Star]

I'd rather have no swap options than a half-assed system of transplanting engines/drivetrains into only a few cars.

thank you:tup:

 

[JDM_SpEEd_FrEAk]

1st Post and new these forums

I am a Forza Faithful that has had enough of Turn 10, I was a GT player ever since GT1 but I was tired of waiting for GT5 so I bought an Xbox and got Forza2. I thoroughly enjoyed FM2, and continued my support for T10 in Forza 3. Then they ruined the game for me, the lobby system was ruined, then you have all the forza LB's filled with AWD swap Cars such as AWD 03 Celica, Mk2 and Mk5 golfs, Scirocco's, Supra's, VIPERS!!!! These types of things belong in a Need for Speed game, I really and truely hope that GT5 does not have this. GT has always been about racing heritage and car enthusiasts, not gimmicks and cheats. I will be hanging my Forza career in early Nov, for what I hope will be a real racing simulator. GT5 doesn't need this gimmick, race cars as they were meant to be driven when there respective companies made them.

 

[GoldenGate]

Way to misinterpret my comment. I didn't say that GT shouldn't have it because Forza does... I simply don't like the way it was implemented in that game (it was fine in 1 like Nish_280Z said but 3 was awful). Anyway if you look at my earlier post you'd see that I said I wanted engine swaps but not drivetrain swaps. Stop tryin' to jump down people's throats.

Sorry for misinturpreting your comment, but when your argument was "because Forza has it" I thought you were dismissing the whole idea based on that sole reason. If you had of elaborated on that statement with what you said in the above post I would of understood you more clearly. I also wasn't jumping down anyones throat, but I do admit that the comment on GT not having cars because Forza does was a bit too sarcastic maybe.


Edit:

Actually, I went back and read the post you quoted from Barryl85 which said "If they done it like Forza I can't see the problem", to which you replied "that's the problem".

I actually did misred the whole thing! So yeah, I hold my hands up and admit I was wrong. I do apologise.

.....................

I'd rather have no swap options than a half-assed system of transplanting engines/drivetrains into only a few cars.

I would also rather see it implimented properly or not at all, which is why I'm sure if it was going to be in the game it would have been thoroughly tested to make sure it would fit in with the rest of the game and not rushed (like Forza). I guess with around 1000 cars it would be a lot more difficult to impliment properly if they were to do it for all cars and not divide it so as just to allow premiums the luxury of engine swaps.

Still, I'd love to see it. (I voted for engine swaps only by the way)

 

[HPT]

I'd love to see it, more customisation, and it's something you do in the real world. My daily driver has an engine swap. It's a very cheap and effective way of getting more power from your car.

Obviously you'd have to be realistic with it. I don't want the ability to be able to put a V8 in a Fiat 500. And as someone earlier stated, only similar manufacturers I.E. Opel/Vauxhall Using GM Engines.

Drivetrain swaps can be done and do happen. A friend of mine works for Volvo and is currently fitting a Pulstar 4WD Conversion to a Volvo C30. It's expensive, but yeah I'd like to see it.

 

[GoldenGate]

GT5 doesn't need this gimmick, race cars as they were meant to be driven when there respective companies made them.

But that means that ALL forms of tuning should be left out then. What I'm trying to say is, engine swaps are a ligitimate form of tuning which is why I would like to see it in the game. Do I think it will be in GT5? No. Would I like to see it in future iterations? Yes, only if done properly (read: balanced).

It seems to be a bit of a minefield though. What is considered realistic and what isn't? Sure, I can put engine and drivetrain A into car B in real life, it may cost thousands of Pounds/Euros/Dollars, but is still do able. But then where do you draw the line? Because with unlimited money you can pretty much shoehorn any engine/gearbox combo into any car, which although OK in real life, may leave a game unbalanced, so it may be more hassel to put it into the game than it's worth.

 

[Sapphire-Wolf]

Sorry for misinturpreting your comment, but when your argument was "because Forza has it" I thought you were dismissing the whole idea based on that sole reason. If you had of elaborated on that statement with what you said in the above post I would of understood you more clearly. I also wasn't jumping down anyones throat, but I do admit that the comment on GT not having cars because Forza does was a bit too sarcastic maybe.


Edit:

Actually, I went back and read the post you quoted from Barryl85 which said "If they done it like Forza I can't see the problem", to which you replied "that's the problem".

I actually did misred the whole thing! So yeah, I hold my hands up and admit I was wrong. I do apologise.

No problem... didn't really mean to react like that. I'm just used to bein' on pretty unfriendly forums.

 

[analog]

I agree GoldenGate, it's just another form of tuning and within certain reasonable limitations perfectly realistic and when implemented correctly ( which I reckon PD will if they would include it ) wouldn't ruin the balance of the game.
Just another option you could choose to use or not and which hopefully won't end up delivering the infamous AWD Vipers as that's indeed a bridge too far in my opinion.
It should be more sensible, more truthfully replicated and therefore more fun ( at least to me ).
About unrealistic in the sense of comparing real life costs ( and the related likelyhood of being a common practice or not ) with what is obviously less relevant or irrelevant in a game, people already are spending much more on tuning and 'restoring' certain cars which they wouldn't sensibly consider doing in real life on the same cars.
All the money spend in-game on a used nineties Japanese hatchback, for example, which if you fully tuned it is hardly realistic in the sense of being likely to be found in real life, sure some people are spending huge amounts of money on them but not that much.

 

[kjb]

I don't see this as a problem. It is part of the car culture. Just because it is in the game doesn't mean that it must be used. As far folks taking their creations online hopefully PD will allow them in their own races. That way people who don't want to race AWD Vipers don't have to.

 

[GoldenGate]

No problem... didn't really mean to react like that. I'm just used to bein' on pretty unfriendly forums.

No worries 👍. In retrospect, my original comment was pretty trollish, so I don't blame you for getting defensive, I would have done the same thing.

Lol yeah, there's a lot of hate out there on the 'net!

 

[MadduckUK]

1st Post and new these forums

I am a Forza Faithful that has had enough of Turn 10, I was a GT player ever since GT1 but I was tired of waiting for GT5 so I bought an Xbox and got Forza2. I thoroughly enjoyed FM2, and continued my support for T10 in Forza 3. Then they ruined the game for me, the lobby system was ruined, then you have all the forza LB's filled with AWD swap Cars such as AWD 03 Celica, Mk2 and Mk5 golfs, Scirocco's, Supra's, VIPERS!!!! These types of things belong in a Need for Speed game, I really and truely hope that GT5 does not have this. GT has always been about racing heritage and car enthusiasts, not gimmicks and cheats. I will be hanging my Forza career in early Nov, for what I hope will be a real racing simulator. GT5 doesn't need this gimmick, race cars as they were meant to be driven when there respective companies made them.

are you me?

 

[Plee]

So, what kind of swaps are we looking at now? Or is there some other thread about this?

 

[Tornado]

None whatsoever, as I understand it.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I think I'm in a similar boat to a lot of other users. You might describe me as a:

post-gran-turismo-4-disenfranchised-forza-motorsports-expatriot-to-gran-turismo-once-more.

FM1 was just fun. FM2 expanded and improved on this in most ways. FM3 has become childish and backwards at the same time. FM4 desperately needs a new graphics AND physics engine, as well as a heavily revised online racing system (although in it's current state with unrealistic drivetrain configurations available, ie awd viper, I'm sure they are attracting a larger fanbase so I doubt they will abandon it)

Best racing game:
Gran Turismo's diversity, (including cars and tracks) levels of detail and fetishism
iRacing's online racing maturity (this would be difficult to implement, but something similar to the 'safety' score would help tremendously)
Forza's sort of fun factor and levels of customization
Enthusia's physics approach (could be improved, but it's the most convincing I've played yet, without being too hardware intensive)
Tokyo Xtreme Racer's single player (so simplistic, yet so compelling. obviously many will disagree)
TDU's expansiveness

There is some considerable overlap, as well as some even more considerable disparity between those, but some elements from each could be implemented I believe to make a very fun experience.

Just imagine physically walking to your superbly detailed, uniquely customized Honda NSX-R, in your own fully explorable garage, and then once behind the wheel, choosing to drive to either a race track for an event, or head out on the expressways to play some follow-the-leader. Perhaps you could even pull over in a parking area and have some sort of meet with friends in your own private server. All the while enjoying something akin to driving a real car on real roads.

This post has become much longer than I originally intended. Oh well.

 

[VXR]

With Forza's leanings towards car culture rather than purely racing, an open world seems to be a logical conclusion. They experimented with semi-freedom on the Benchmark A, so hopefully they noticed how many groups used it for photoshoots.

For a game that calls itself the 'Real Driving Simulator' I can't believe PD haven't actually included an open world yet where you're literally just driving for the hell of it.

TDUxGT5xFM3 = WIN!

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

If FM4 embraces that, I will consider going back....because I really don't think they can beat Gran Turismo at their own game (which is what they've been trying to do it seems)

 

[With a EG6]

I have to play FORZA 3 just to do this, i loved the first FORZA but its never going to beat Gran Turismo. I don't know why people compare them FORZA isn't really a SIM or at least it doesn't feel like it.

 

[VXR]

Why, because it's not set-up to feel more difficult than driving a car really is?

 

[Pagani1]

Yes, I wanna be able to put the engine from Jay Leno's Tank rod into a Mini Cooper.

 

[mark wolf]

I was all for this at first. The more I think about it, the more I think it's a bad idea.

PD went to a lot of effort to add many cars accurately. Allowing people to make hybrids destroys the purity of the cars. Likely most of the cars you'll see online will be hybrids of other cars. All of the hard work in replicating cars is wasted and the car museam legacy is lost too.

In the end whats important is racing real cars. There are and will be, other racing games for people to express their individuality.

 

[articzap]

Motor swaps would be nice, but I'd more love an actual tuning system. Basic which auto tunes and an advanced system in which I can actually tuning engine based on air load, throttle position and timing vs RPM vs air mass.

That way your car is unique.

 

[SigmaViper11]

If it can fit or it can work allow it. You can do almost anything in reality. Why should you be limited in a game. If you want to make an FF acr awd with an engine from something completely different go for it. I see no problem. Just don't expect to cross a veyron with a civic.