Fanatec Announcements: CSW V2 Reviews Out
- Thread starter Crispy
- 13,388 comments
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- 4,004
- Croatia
I really do not see any significant possibility for Microsoft to switch to USB/HID protocol.
Without XID (Xinput) they can't control licensing the hardware/SDK for third-party manufacturers. And that is the only reason why they never included USB/HID controller-unit on their consoles. And because of that we have to pay premium price for our wheels (Microsoft demande money for every XB-licensed third-party device and wheels need additional hardware inside to be XID/Xinput/XB compatible).
And they love the sweet money they get from licensing.
And if they opted for latest Xinput 1.4 for XBOne, thing is done, because Xinput 1.4 can't recognize any "backward compatibility device" as something else then "GAMEPAD" while wheels needs to be recognized as "XINPUT_DEVSUBTYPE_WHEEL" in order to properly work.
More here (you have to click through other links there to get to all information): http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh405051(v=vs.85).aspx
Well, I smell great problems.
- 4,004
- Croatia
I know about 4 Fanatec models that are X360 compatible:
PWTS / GT2 / CSR / CSR Elite
All of them share some dedicated Microsoft hardware/software inside that allows them to use XID/Xinput SDK for emulating X360 controller as "XINPUT_DEVSUBTYPE_WHEEL" device and all of them have proprietary hardware/software that allows them to communicate to X360 via RF standard.
If all we know so far is true - and if my limited technical knowledge is correct - there is no "simple" update to this solution. I may be wrong, so please that more knowledgeable correct me on this - but there are 3 real pre-requsities for current-gen Fanatec wheels to potentially work on XBO:
1) there would have to be new hardware inside that would allow wheels to pair with XO under new SDK standards
2) there would have to be separate hardware add-on that would allow wheels to transmit Wi-Fi Direct signal instead of current RF transmitter (how would it work? where would it be plugged?)
3) there would have be major "firmware update" to wheels itself to enable all above to work with XO
Of course, such updating the hardware and then firmware would make that wheel unusable on X360. Even if hardware would be removable somehow and old-hardware would be left intact, we would have to update the firmware to each version once we switch the platforms.
Solution for above is no simple solution by any mean. And I certainly will blame Microsoft if old wheels will not work. And yes, I would so love to be completely wrong on all this.
I *could* - but then complete game API and engine should be changed because programming the wheel support in game engine is completely different for HID (*normal* FFB wheels) and XID (Xinput, "Xbox" wheels).
Also, in order to perform Xinput authentication via USB, every Fanatec wheel should have to have something vaguely called "Microsoft USB authentication chip". That is piece of hardware that all USB-X360 controllers have to have in order to be paired with X360 via USB and I have no idea does Fanatec models have that chip in their current state of hardware, but I will presume no. If they did, we would all probably be using USB mode on the wheels with HID-feedback, not XID.
So, if they do not have it, add that chip to the list of pre-requsites above.
And again, I would so love to be completely wrong on all this.
- 1,358
- Redmond, WA
- mrbasherman
The Infineon module in the Fanatec wheels that are compatible with the current xbox are soldered to the board on the wheels I have seen. As well, Fanatec does not have control of the firmware on those modules. They are encrypted and proprietary Infineon components. Unless the new xbox is backwards compatible, they will not work.
This however has basically been known for quite some time. The unknown was whether or not the new xbox would be backwards compatible, which I personally always found very unlikely. The reasons are not only to make money either... Having hardware standards for something like this can make game and hardware development much simpler in the long run. What if the new controller has an extra button or one less button, or some gyro thing, etc.
Anyhow, that's about all I know on the subject, well... Almost.
This however has basically been known for quite some time. The unknown was whether or not the new xbox would be backwards compatible, which I personally always found very unlikely. The reasons are not only to make money either... Having hardware standards for something like this can make game and hardware development much simpler in the long run. What if the new controller has an extra button or one less button, or some gyro thing, etc.
Anyhow, that's about all I know on the subject, well... Almost.
- 1,358
- Redmond, WA
- mrbasherman
Well, is the new Xbox officially not backwards compatible? That I don't know, I haven't been following well on that front. If it is not, then again, the electronics in the wheels would need to be replaced to be compatible... Based on the knowledge I currently have.
As for people being upset with Microsoft... That's a tough one in my opinion. I like that Sony uses HID because it's standard and if Joe Blow wants to make a controller to work with it, he can. (technically) Heck, Fanatec themselves "highjacked" the G25 and G27 HID descriptors and used them on their wheels. Otherwise they would not work. That's just an ethical thing really, though Sony could probably push on that if they wanted I'd guess.
Microsoft has taken what I would say is a route similar to the iPhone. They want a closed system and it's their purgative to do so. Wheel users make up a TINY percentage of their customers. Even though I'm an "open source" minded guy and I fully support most of those movements, I can also respect their position on licensing hardware. If MS doesn't allow another Fanatec wheel to be produced and connected to the new xbox, people will be upset, surely. However, none of us consumers will ever know the real reason. I don't think all of the blame should fall on the shoulders of MS.
To finish up... I wouldn't get too "up in arms" over much of this at this point. Nobody has any concrete details it seems. Just enjoy the equipment you have. I'm almost certain it will work on GT6, at minimum.
As for people being upset with Microsoft... That's a tough one in my opinion. I like that Sony uses HID because it's standard and if Joe Blow wants to make a controller to work with it, he can. (technically) Heck, Fanatec themselves "highjacked" the G25 and G27 HID descriptors and used them on their wheels. Otherwise they would not work. That's just an ethical thing really, though Sony could probably push on that if they wanted I'd guess.
Microsoft has taken what I would say is a route similar to the iPhone. They want a closed system and it's their purgative to do so. Wheel users make up a TINY percentage of their customers. Even though I'm an "open source" minded guy and I fully support most of those movements, I can also respect their position on licensing hardware. If MS doesn't allow another Fanatec wheel to be produced and connected to the new xbox, people will be upset, surely. However, none of us consumers will ever know the real reason. I don't think all of the blame should fall on the shoulders of MS.
To finish up... I wouldn't get too "up in arms" over much of this at this point. Nobody has any concrete details it seems. Just enjoy the equipment you have. I'm almost certain it will work on GT6, at minimum.
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,041
- N Ireland
I for one, am actually all for a new advances in tech and for a new wheel. So if one does appear interested in what improvements or features it may bring. For instance will a new wheel include the new impulse rumble feature found on the controllers triggers?
"The most intriguing impulse trigger demo was probably one that combined the more traditional force feedback motors to simulate the rumble of a car engine, then used the impulse triggers to highlight the squealing of brief taps on the brakes. I could see this acting as an important new gameplay cue, outside of sight and sound, that could help add a new level of intuitive response to racing games that's not possible on other systems."
See Here
Let me just say that even if the Elite was compatible I would be certain that the vast majority of owners that have it would be tempted to sell to get the latest thing anyways.
Hey who knows maybe their will be no new wheel at all and just the Porsche rim that was teased.
"The most intriguing impulse trigger demo was probably one that combined the more traditional force feedback motors to simulate the rumble of a car engine, then used the impulse triggers to highlight the squealing of brief taps on the brakes. I could see this acting as an important new gameplay cue, outside of sight and sound, that could help add a new level of intuitive response to racing games that's not possible on other systems."
See Here
Let me just say that even if the Elite was compatible I would be certain that the vast majority of owners that have it would be tempted to sell to get the latest thing anyways.
Hey who knows maybe their will be no new wheel at all and just the Porsche rim that was teased.
- 814
- Goes_To_11 GTP_GoesTo11
Well, is the new Xbox officially not backwards compatible? That I don't know, I haven't been following well on that front. If it is not, then again, the electronics in the wheels would need to be replaced to be compatible... Based on the knowledge I currently have.
As for people being upset with Microsoft... That's a tough one in my opinion. I like that Sony uses HID because it's standard and if Joe Blow wants to make a controller to work with it, he can. (technically) Heck, Fanatec themselves "highjacked" the G25 and G27 HID descriptors and used them on their wheels. Otherwise they would not work. That's just an ethical thing really, though Sony could probably push on that if they wanted I'd guess.
Microsoft has taken what I would say is a route similar to the iPhone. They want a closed system and it's their purgative to do so. Wheel users make up a TINY percentage of their customers. Even though I'm an "open source" minded guy and I fully support most of those movements, I can also respect their position on licensing hardware. If MS doesn't allow another Fanatec wheel to be produced and connected to the new xbox, people will be upset, surely. However, none of us consumers will ever know the real reason. I don't think all of the blame should fall on the shoulders of MS.
To finish up... I wouldn't get too "up in arms" over much of this at this point. Nobody has any concrete details it seems. Just enjoy the equipment you have. I'm almost certain it will work on GT6, at minimum.
It has basically been confirmed that the wireless will not be backwards compatible. The only way then that the old wheels will work is if XID will work over usb and the xbox1 accepts the old XID.
A new wheel will make Forza5 very expensive for me and almost impossible to justify to my banker/accountant/wife.
- 1,358
- Redmond, WA
- mrbasherman
Well, to my knowledge, wheel FFB is only allowed over wireless on the current xbox. I can't see them changing that unless an exception of some sort is made. Again, I can't see them doing that given the relative number of users and development resources necessary.
I know, it's
but... That's just how it goes I guess. You are not alone... Many people are now at a crossroads in which they have to decide: Sell my CSR Elite for $400-$500 and have no wheel to play the xbox I have RIGHT NOW. -or- Wait and get an unknown amount less for it later on...
I know, it's
but... That's just how it goes I guess. You are not alone... Many people are now at a crossroads in which they have to decide: Sell my CSR Elite for $400-$500 and have no wheel to play the xbox I have RIGHT NOW. -or- Wait and get an unknown amount less for it later on...
- 4,004
- Croatia
You don't want to sell your Elite.
It perfectly works on PS3 and PC and will almost certainly perfectly work on the PS4 (together as all other HID/USB wheels).
No CSR/CSRE owners I know that currently vents about this situation - and there are few of them - even remotely considers to sell their wheels.
Only decision they're considering right now is deciding which platform they will support in the future. And as far as I can tell from their comments, they will decide with their this-gen Fanatec wheels.
- 1,358
- Redmond, WA
- mrbasherman
Well, I've had a few people inquire with me for advice on "what do to." That's why I said that. My advice has been to enjoy what they have!
There is a fairly lengthy discussion over at f-wheel.com about this, or was...
I'm not saying people should sell... If you do, you'll be without for quite some time. As well, who knows for sure what is coming, it may be nothing anyone wants!
There is a fairly lengthy discussion over at f-wheel.com about this, or was...
I'm not saying people should sell... If you do, you'll be without for quite some time. As well, who knows for sure what is coming, it may be nothing anyone wants!
That one is easy, ps4. Regarding selling my elite due to x1 incompatibility, not buying x1 and games opens a door to buy CSW and still have some money left.
If you don't want X1 with Forza 5 and you are primarily interested in console racing I would argue that you should just skip both because GT6 was just announced this year which puts GT7 years away.
In addition they will likely have a price cut by that point anyway.
- 558
- Quebec, Canada
- Lamalozo
Well I think a lot about selling my CSR Elite and my 360. No more FM4 dlc/update and no compatibility with the XBox One. I bought a 360 because of FM3 and FM4 but now...
As I am a video game dev, I think it is professional to own both PS and XBox system but I will/can not spend 600$ for a new wheel and 500$ for a new console...
As I am a video game dev, I think it is professional to own both PS and XBox system but I will/can not spend 600$ for a new wheel and 500$ for a new console...
- 558
- Quebec, Canada
- Lamalozo
- 3,239
- New York
- thepatriots
This should put the coffin in the ground:
Basically how it is now with no BC for old devices. In other words XID.
Let this cook on your head. What if FM5 releases without any wheel support? Has Fanatec been slaving away at an MS licensed wheel in anticipation of this? IMO I would expect Thrustmaster to pick up the title. They have essentially had 1 product for the past 3 years.
Basically how it is now with no BC for old devices. In other words XID.
Let this cook on your head. What if FM5 releases without any wheel support? Has Fanatec been slaving away at an MS licensed wheel in anticipation of this? IMO I would expect Thrustmaster to pick up the title. They have essentially had 1 product for the past 3 years.
That link is talking about headsets. Something pretty much irrelevant when you consider all of the consoles include the new Kinect. With the mic array of the new kinect I doubt hearing you talk at normal volume will be that much of an issue. If you are just drawing an analogy to the overall strategy of proprietary and no backwards compatibility then it does support your point indirectly.
Yah I can see Thrustmaster as they actually have a licensed xbox wheel. It is not a good one but it is still licensed. They took the throne from Logitech on ps3 it wouldn't be much of a stretch to do the same here.
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,041
- N Ireland
Like I said earlier we know nothing of the agreement in place between T10 and Fanatec, it could of been a multi FM game contract. If any company has a "Quality Wheel" for FM5 the likelihood but not guarantee is that it will come from Fanatec.
Fanatec remember also produced 2x wheels, basically a standard and a premium. That strategy might of worked quite well with FM4 so could likely happen again at some point with the new Xbox One. This is a strategy no other wheel manufacturer has done before or offer such a diverse selection of shifter/pedal components.
Additionally a point people keep forgetting, Fanatec is the only multiplatform wheel manufacturer granted with a dual licensce between the rival console brands. So if anyone is indeed making a new wheel for Xbox One I hope it is Fanatec.
We all of course could be in for a bad shock!
Anyone for FM5 via Kinect 2.0
- 672
- Toulouse
- TheHBK
- HBK Live
Fanatec wheels are the only ones to be compatible with the two big competitors (well some of their wheels are at least). It would suck if that wouldn't be the case in the future (if no wheel would be "multiplatform", regardless of the manufacturer). I like being able to use my GT2 on FM4 and GT5 with no hassle other than having to reboot the wheel.
Edit : It's now almost granted that the current range of Fanatec wheels won't be Xone compatible. I just hope there will be a new range of Xone compatible wheels from Fanatec. Their wheels are great. So are their pedals.
Edit : It's now almost granted that the current range of Fanatec wheels won't be Xone compatible. I just hope there will be a new range of Xone compatible wheels from Fanatec. Their wheels are great. So are their pedals.
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