Fanatec CSW/CSR Elite Modders Thread *UPDATE February 2014*

[LogiForce]

Those were from all-out qualifying laps supposedly. Back in the day Schuie did that sort of thing corner after corner, lap after lap. Notice how he is much busier than Herbert. Yet he would jump out of the car later on less tired than many of his rivals.

Here are some racing logs from my Elise codriving with a multi-National Champ EVO School pal. I goofed but was ahead of him on splits up to that point (see Time Slip). You can review the actual driver inputs recorded every 1/100th of a second. I got greedy lol. See some of steering inputs? I want to compare low drag versus stock Sim Wheel drag doing something like this. I may log just wheel position but may also mount an accelerometer on the wheel rim to see what else I can discover.

Well, you can use Ferrari Virtual Academy for this. It lets you view your telemetry against that of Ferrari's drivers of that time.

So this is from me against Fisichella on the Nurburring GP (still with the T500 + Ferrari rim back in the day before the CSW):

 

[LogiForce]

After some racing last night/this morning (yes, it's 5:35am right now for me and I still need to sleep) I came to the conclusion that I did overtighten the belts a tiny bit.
So loosened the belts a tiny tiny TINY bit, so tiny that I couldn't see any movement at all. But I ended up removing at least half of the drag that was present. There is still some, but I can live with that. Slippage increased an unmentionable amount, if at all it did. I just barely noticed some.

Went from a drive in Dirt 2 after that and driving across the first Croatia hairpin stage became a brease. Due to the faster wheel response from the drag reduction I had to countersteer less. In other words, it has become easier to drive clean indeed.

 

[mrbasher]

Due to having been lumped into a group of people who have been referred to as "not having a clue":

Personally from a personal view i say everybody in the world that says there t500rs dont lose ffb has'nt got a clue as they do and it's been proven by what i notice and what measures i've taken to fix it.

I decided to go ahead and pick up a fish scale on the way home and get this solved once and for all. If for nothing else than my own interest...

Here's what I did: (room temp was 68 F for all tests)

With the wheel connected to the PS3, I turned on the PS3. I did not start any games

The wheel did its startup routine and sat.

I connected the sale around the rubber portion just inside the rim, near the outer portion.

I rotated the wheel about 135 degrees and read the scale.

I did this 10 times. Each time trying to move it such that I may get a different reading than the time before. Different skewed readings where only obtained when the scale was not being pulled perpendicular to the portion it was attached to.

Each reading was 13.5 pounds at maximum.

I then stopped and got some dinner, etc.

Just a little bit ago, I finished up some new pedal faces for my T500RS and decided to give them a try. I drove the AEM S2000 for about 45 minutes straight. This car provides some pretty high levels of FFB compared to some of the other cars.

I decided to test again immediately afterwards. I pressed the PS button on the wheel, putting the wheel back in "standby" which makes it's center spring act like 100% (just like when not driving in GT5, as done in the initial test above)

I carried out the exact same tests as above. All of the readings where 12.8 pounds.

The fan on the wheel was running and the outside of the case was warm to the touch, as it usually is after running for some time.

So yes, the wheel does loose some power... That's a given when electric motors heat up. The cooler you can keep them, the less power they loose. In my case it was around 1 pound.

I did NOT check the motor to see if it's duty cycle was being reduced at all as it is in the Fanatec wheels. To do that I have to take the top off my wheel and I really am not interested in going to the trouble right now.

I'm not sure what else to say. I went to the trouble of getting a scale so I could finally get you guys what you wanted. I hope it helps.

Can I feel 1 pound of loss? I think so, if I pay attention to it... However, as I said before. At this point, I have yet to notice it during use.

I should note, I use my FFB setting in GT5 at 7 out of 10 Edit: As well, the scale was checked for accuracy against several weights from my weight set. It matched the readings given by two separate scales in my house.

 

[eKretz]

Great Logi! See, that slippage isn't really all that big of a deal at all! I had a tough time getting my tension dialed in exactly where I wanted it too. One improvement that would be nice on these Fanatec wheels would be a threaded belt tensioner. I'm not so sure I would like a spring loaded tensioner unless it was along the lines of RXX's idea to have an active tensioner that only kicks in when needed. P.S. sorry about the mixup regarding belt thickness/width! Should have known you knew what you meant! I do agree with both you and RXX thinner, more flexible belts would be great. Getting Fanatec to pay for custom wound belts is probably not going to happen though.

Awesome Basher, thanks! That bears out pretty well with what it looked like in your graph from WheelCheck that you posted a while back. It looked like your wheel was only losing just a little power in that graph. I'm guessing by the sounds of it you are not running into a firmware cutback...probably just heat losses. To say for sure you'd have to measure of course, but not really necessary at this point. Michelcleo likes to run his FFB heavy/strong, so I'm sure that is why he was getting a more dramatic power cut than you are.

I don't think michelcleo meant to insult anyone with that comment, I think he's just frustrated with everyone with T500s that are telling him that he's imagining things. I certainly would be.

 

[Michelcleo]

Sorry MrBasher, my vocabulary sucks, i do'nt mean to make anybody offended but my writing skills do suck so sentaces can seem trollish, just pull me up on it anytime and i'll apologize.

70% can last ok depending on what track ect is used, over 70% starts to suffer very quckly thugh as for me i'd say after arund 20\30 minutes at 75% t really feels like 60% as current/heat starts to take effect.

if you tried the same test's with 80% you would most likey lose more torque in the same amount of time and if you raced at 10 or 100% after 20 minutes the wheel feels like 50% or 5 power.

At 80% with stock fan you would not believe how hot the motors can is after 20 minutes racing, at 100% it gets extremely hot very fast.

I'd say 70% is the boundary of where the motor can play nice for awhile anythng over makes more heat alot faster that the stock heatsink just cannot cope with.


Mr basher do you have access to your internals or is your wheel still sealed ?
If you have'nt got access you'd be suprised that when you say the plastic is warm by the can if you could touch the motor it's very hot.


At 80% with my fans and heatsinks i can race at 80% power all night and then pull up, put the car in neutral and swing the wheel left and right and there's still weight to the wheel, at stock and with 80% by this tme the wheel/wheels's have no weight and feel like it's attached to an elastic band

 

[RacerXX]

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[RacerXX]

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[RacerXX]

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[LogiForce]

I'm glad you understand my point about Wheel Drag. It changes the driving experience and car control.

BUT.

What level of drag are you at presently? Subjectively half of when you set it higher than stock, but what about objective testing? Fish Scale, Wheel Check coast can help there, start up coastdown on CSR-E wheels (like in Fana-Blog 6) too, or flinging the wheel when off noting which rim and other conditions.

After trying so many belts out and modding quite a few too, I noticed that some are trickier to set up than others. Narrow belts such as a two rib Gates behave differently than say a three rib Gates. The two is a bit stretchier, which makes sense since it has ⅔ the fiber cording of a three ribber. The cords take the tension loads within the belt.

I have not tried Optibelts but I'd expect your three rib Opti to be a bit sensitive. So it resonated with me when you noted that just a tiny change was needed. This is why I set up my tensioning to allow small no-tool changes, and independent for each pulley. I can stop a game, reach over and change tension, or cut slip that happens only in one turning direction for instance. I do this right at the front of the main plate. The stock motor frame and adjusters are not able to do things like that.

I don't have any fish scales or the like, so it is all subjective.
After start up, turning it around seems lighter. Also the calibration seems to be quicker. During driving it auto centers itself easier again. Stuff like that showed me that the drag has decreased significantly.
You are wrong about the belt that had the most influence though. It was the short wide belt. Which grabs better than the Gates counterpart from my experience.

 

[mrbasher]

Awesome Basher, thanks! That bears out pretty well with what it looked like in your graph from WheelCheck that you posted a while back. It looked like your wheel was only losing just a little power in that graph. I'm guessing by the sounds of it you are not running into a firmware cutback...probably just heat losses. To say for sure you'd have to measure of course, but not really necessary at this point. Michelcleo likes to run his FFB heavy/strong, so I'm sure that is why he was getting a more dramatic power cut than you are.

You're very welcome.
With regard to the bolded portion of the quote. This is the reason I made the following statement In This Post:

"All motors will fade some, when heated, it's why we cool them. However, it doesn't seem as though power is being cut significantly if at all. I'd need to check the signals going to the motor to be sure on that..."

That statement should have explained my thoughts better. "it doesn't seem as though power is being cut significantly if at all" is in reference to the postulation (by me) that the wheel firmware itself may be cutting the duty cycle on the motor. I can see how it could have been interpreted as me saying it loses no power whatsoever.

I should note that I don't like 10 on GT5 because I think it "overdoes" some of the "highs" Much like going over 60% on the wheel settings in Windows. On Windows games like rFactor, pCars and iRacing, I run the FFB as high as I can get it. The most taxing game on the FFB that I have found is rFactor with the realfeel plugin. So I do run it high actually...

I ran the same tests again this morning, but on 10 and obtained the same results. This was expected however, based upon the methods I used for testing. What you have to understand about the tests I did was that pressing the PS button and putting the wheel in that "standby mode" removes control of the forces from the game. So what I am measuring at that point is it's full force, apparently. (I don't know if it's fully on or not without measuring) So it's simulating what would be felt, if 100% forces were going through the wheel in game. Which resulted in around 1 pound of loss.

Michelcleo had stated previously in the thread that he was getting a little above 8 pounds, I think specifically he said 8.6. Then coincidentally, he was getting exactly half that when hot (3.8). The wheel should not be starting out at 8.6 pounds cold... Though it's possible his scale was just really really poor. The one I purchased was a $6 spring scale Like I said though, it tested accurate.

On that note, I have felt what Michelcleo describes regarding the rubberband type feeling when the car is sitting still, but not in every car. As well, I don't notice this while the car is moving. Any bumps or corning forces I am feeling seem to be just as drastic as when the wheel is cold.

Michelcleo,

I don't have the cover off the wheel and it's hard mounted to my rig. I'd have to pull it all apart and frankly don't have the time at the moment. I really would like to put my 'scope on the motor and log what's going to it at some point though. I ALMOST checked the motor temp using an infrared thermometer, but I was already being "heralded" from the other room

I should apologize though... I personally never meant to make you feel as though you were crazy. I went through a similar issue with the wheel when I first purchased a T500RS where I was absolutely obsessed with this feeling it was giving me during sweeping turns that I didn't like. I was convinced it was a problem with the wheel. I went through 4 different wheels. (I hate to admit that....) In the end, I was blowing it out of proportion a little and mostly because I was concentrating on it every time I used the wheel. I obsess about that kind of stuff, just like it sound you do. I do the same with my real life cars... I hear it making a strange sound, and suddenly it's all I can hear. "Is that a valve??? Dammit!"

Anyhow, I understand what you are going through and the statements I had made some time back were made to reassure you, not offend you. I'm glad your extra cooling mods are working and that you are enjoying your wheel without worry now.

 

[RacerXX]

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[RacerXX]

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[LeMansAid]

Okay here is Fana-Blog 8: 48 Grams Of Win. 45 grams of nickels plus 3 grams of string / zip tie = 48 grams. Winning! Forgot to rotate the file 90º sorry, gravity is still "down" though!

I'm actually below the level of drag this represents, but this way you can see the movement more clearly in a casual low res video like this one. My wheel easily moves with the 48 gram loading. See…when you creep up on the actual limit, the wheel slows way down. When you are closing in on equilibrium, static versus dynamic friction is an issue too. In use, our wheels always slightly move and so Dynamic Friction or drag is our concern.

If you try this out on a stock wheel, you won't hit these figures. Try it out, all you need are some coins and string, and maybe a baggie to hold the coins if you need many. The action when the pull on the rim is at 3:00 or 9:00 is what you are looking for, since that is when the leverage is greatest and the full rim OD is utilized. It also makes comparing to rims of different sizes possible since you can convert to torque or what the drag force at some other rim size is if you know the radius at which you tested.

Jealous right here, using your wheel might even enable me to be something other than completely useless driving rally. I imagine that the slippy slidey nature of rally would benefit most from the subtlety.

The big question though..... are they US or Canadian nickels? If they are Canadian nickels you could have a whopping great magnet under there pulling your wheel down!!! Just playing devil's doubty advocate.

Glad to see that someone finally found a use for the Fanatec shifter "mount" as well.

 

[RacerXX]

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[Cote Dazur]

Did the drag test this morning, I ended needing 312 grams to pull my wheel. CSR-Elite with stock rim, cold wheel, off, not used since the previous night.

 

[eKretz]

I would agree the low drag mod is an awesome help. I need to get to grinding some belts, heh. Are you using tire softening compound for your belts to soften them RXX?

 

[RacerXX]

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[RacerXX]

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[RacerXX]

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[RacerXX]

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[eKretz]

Hmm, that's weird. I have had 2 different wheels apart and didn't have that issue. My bearings were interference fit on both. Maybe you got a bum pulley that shouldn't have passed QC.

 

[LeMansAid]

I'm new to rally other than doing a few hill climbs up in NH (which I won). Rally sims can help wheel base tweaking as the forces are so varied, frequent, and cover a wide range of strengths. Between the jump and surface impacts and the huge grip differences per minute it is intense and enjoyable.

Having low wheel drag helps all forms of racing involving steering, not just rally. My datalogging of the wheel while in use (via my DL1) continues but is showing faster countersteer to further degrees / distances. So you can catch issues earlier before they snowball. That tankslapper corner turns into just a wobble yet at higher road speeds.

I can't give up this Low Drag!! Sorry but I am hooked and it was a pleasant surprise to find it during my mad err mod quest. The extra 100-200% torque I was using on the Four-Buchi is awesome too. Fortunately there may be some ways to get both. Of the two...if I could pick only one, I'd choose Low Drag over more FFB torque since it feels so great/natural and it is definitely F A S T E R.

Still, while you are not currently running an increased torque version, you are running an increased relative resistance version. Considering humankind's innate adaptability, you should be experiencing what would FEEL like increased torque....... a bit.

 

[K_Soze]

So a low drag dual buhler is maybe the best solution

 

[RacerXX]

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[RacerXX]

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[eKretz]

Yeah, who knows? There are likely others floating around out there (pun) but they will still function reasonably. Just not optimally. You'd have to open a wheel and check it out to be sure. Under stock belt tension you would not notice that movement as the side loading would keep it preloaded for the most part.

The pulley bearing in the video is likely the most highly loaded in the device, as it sees a cantilevered load and the one on the other side of the pulley is much larger. I want to load in lower friction bearings throughout the device, this is not hard to do as they all seem to be standard sizes. While I am thinking about that pulley, I might as well make an adjustable tensioner for it.

I don't know if I'd call that reasonable. That's a pretty blatant defect right there. Looks like at least .003"-.005" oversize on a fit that should be metal-to-metal at the loosest. Both of mine needed to be pressed apart. I'm sure you're correct that it's the highest loaded bearing in the base, but that kind of slop is out and out ridiculous, IMO. It had to be big to begin with to loosen up that much that fast, unless it was that big right from the start. Take a look at the I.D. of your pulley and see if there are any signs of brinnelling or peeling. I would be mailing Fanatec that video and getting a replacement pulley immediately if I were you.

Replacement bearings might be good, but if you're going for anything of decent quality, the big one will not be cheap. This bearing slop problem should NOT develop on any wheels unless they are improperly sized to begin with.

 

[LogiForce]

However it is done is fine with me. Low Drag has not often been discussed but I think it is a very important part of sim wheel performance. It's also easier on the drive motors since they don't have to pedal the bicycle up the hill with the brakes partially engaged at all times.

But how low is "low"? For that we need objective tests and some idea of what level to achieve.

Racer, why not measure the drag of your car after jacking it up? Find out what the natural drag level is and should be achieved on a sim wheel to make it feel natural.
The problem is that due to the lack of force in a sim wheel, the drag levels need to be lowered to the level of torque a simwheel is able to produce. I think you should be able to calculate/estimate this with the torque figures and drag figures of both your car's wheel and the sim wheel.

 

[RacerXX]

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