Fanatec CSW/CSR Elite Modders Thread *UPDATE February 2014*

  • Thread starter eKretz
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Another little something of note, I've noticed this on every wheel I've taken apart so far - the lubricant/grease being used on the limit screw seems quite clearly to be attacking the plastic limit collar. Certain plastics are not compatible with petroleum based greases - it causes "crazing" - which is the formation of many tiny cracks. It can be pretty clearly seen in this photo:



What that means for long-term longevity of the limit collar is anyone's guess. It could tighten up on the thread, fall to pieces, or have no real effect at all. We will just have to wait and see.
 
One thing I noticed with the drag levels when I had my wheel apart , if the wheel is mounted on an angle, there will be slightly more drag when rotating to the right due to gravity
 
Interesting, why only to the right? I'm not understanding how that relates to gravity. While you have it apart I would definitely recommend switching from grease to oil or dry-film lubricant everywhere. It does make a noticeable difference. The belt shaving I didn't find made a huge difference, but may help with slippage a bit, thereby allowing slightly lower belt tension on the motor belt. I wouldn't recommend doing the rubber softening compound that RXX was experimenting with or belt dressing - unless you want to be replacing your belt often and probably cleaning up bits of softened rubber from inside your wheel base. The reason those compounds help with flexibility and grip is they slightly decompose the rubber. It usually continues to do so at a higher than natural rate, and some of them will soften it for a short period only, after which it will get harder than when you started.
 
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Because when the wheel is on an angle the lock stopper is moving uphill, which slows it down comapared to when it's going downhill, it's only a very slight difference though
 
Yeah I'm fine with the way the belts perform, having the ball bearing motors and changing the grease is as far as I would go I think, maybe file the thread like you've just done too
 
Ahh. I see about the gravity. I didn't figure that would make enough of a difference to feel, especially with the grease in there. I never checked it though. Another area that I would say is VERY important to check while you've got it apart is the bearing preload. On something like our wheels we don't want much if any, since it will add drag. Mine was set up pretty well from the get-go, but as I reassembled Derick's wheel tonight I discovered that it would no longer freewheel stop to stop after I tightened the 8 socket heads holding the front plate and support rods together with the back plate. I checked the backlash/preload on the bearing and it was set up with a .009" (.23mm) pinch on the bearing! Ouch. So I remedied that and it's all good now. He is going to notice a very big difference in freewheeling drag from what he had before.
 
I only noticed it when the wheel was free spinning, I can't feel the difference when I phisically turn the wheel

Gotcha. I think a much lighter lubricant helps with that but that plastic is actually pretty "grabby" even dry. May be the effect of the original lubricant attacking the plastic, not sure.
 
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I think they should offer him a consultancy job!

Lol, I'm busy enough trying to keep up with all the guys who want replacement motors! I got more demand than I expected - already sold out my first batch of parts. Anyways, they don't want me working for them - I contacted them about doing the wheel repairs in the U.S. when they had a job posting about that but never even got a response.
 
Haha, no kidding! It would have worked out nice since with my bad back I could have worked at home any time of day I felt well enough. That's what makes it impossible for me to work for a company full-time at their location with my back - I never know if I'm going to be feeling well enough to sit up or stand in the morning, afternoon or if it might be 2 or 3 a.m. when I'm working on something because that's the best I've felt all day.
 
New member of the CSW owners club here. Wondering what happened to all of RacerXX's posts.

I love the wheel, but of course my tweaking nature took hold and had it apart a few days after I got it. Well I was inspired by all this talk of "low drag" and went down my own path and made a few pretty ugly mistakes. I was hoping to find out some details on how to fix my issues, but it seems like a lot of great info got deleted.

Haven't read the whole thread, but a good portion of it. Kretz has a bunch of useful info. For the record, I have no problem with someone making a buck off their hard work, and at least he hasn't gone and deleted useful posts...

Anyway, I finally got the wheel pretty much back to where I wanted and had some fun with CRC belt dressing along the way. The rubber solvent in that seems interesting, once I got the tensions adjusted right there's some good gains, but the longevity is definitely a concern.

Like the thread, just wish some members of the community weren't being shady with previously shared knowledge...
 
No one can alter posts besides the original poster or moderators. It would appear that Racer got upset about people not agreeing with him and decided to "take his toys and go home," but no one knows for sure his reasoning. It seems several people have had go-arounds with him in the past, but I was unaware that he had a problem with me until the post where he complained about me talking about providing some others with help.

I am curious to hear about your adventures in modding though, do tell us more - maybe you can help some other guys avoid the same problems. There are a variety of solvents that will soften rubber and give it better grip, at the expense of longevity. Some use acetone, some toluene, etc.
 
I haven't done so much modding per-say, more just playing around at this point. With new-toy excitement, I started opening it up without doing enough background research.

I was rather hasty in my tweaks, so it went like this:

Checked the belt tension upon first opening it up, noticed that the reduction pulley to steering shaft was super tight and the motor to reduction pulley belt was fairly loose. Thought to myself "this can't be right", so loosened the former and slightly tightened the later thinking that leveling out the tension might reduce overall tension and hence drag without inducing slip.

Well that was a huge mistake. Turned out to increase drag AND induce tons of slip. I now know that the reduction to steering shaft belt (left hand one as facing the wheel from driving position) needs to be super tight in order to not slip. Took some experimentation to figure that out though.

When I first got the slip, I was convinced it was the motor belt slipping on the reduction pulley. It seems obvious now, but I figured there was no way the other belt was slipping since it still had a relatively high tension and I wasn't looking closely enough to see where the slip actually was. I assumed I misjudged the motor belt tension and had to get more friction there. I knew that loosening the belts reduced drag, so I wanted to find a way to increase friction while reducing tension.

I found my way to CRC belt conditioner from the local auto parts store. The active ingredient is some unspecified hexane isomers. Little research there shows that isomers of hexane are often a component to rubber cement. So it basically melts rubber. End result is it makes the belts tacky (for a time anyway).

I eventually figured out that the main shaft belt needs to be way tight, but with both belts now a bit tackier, I've reduced overall tension a bit while eliminating slip in all but the most extreme cases, so the feel is pretty good. The drawback is a bit of noise - the higher friction belts now make a bit of a hiss as they un-stick themselves from the pulleys.

I'm sure drag could be reduced much further with other mods (I think some of which used to be detailed in this thread) that I haven't tried yet.

So the feel is pretty good even on stock motors, not a huge difference from stock though. Given the depression I felt before I figured out the correct tension (with some help of your posts Kretz) as I thought I just ruined my new wheel, I don't know if I have the stomach for any major experimentation in the near term.

My next "fix" as it were is going to be a low-cost, minimally invasive method to keep the motors cooler. A 25 min session of Asetto Corsa fooling around got them hot enough to noticeably reduce force output. I noticed both left and right fans seem to be exhausting. First the left side one should be flipped I think to bring cool air in from that side. Then I'm going to try to source some drop-in replacement fans. The stock ones seem to be of a bargin-basement type. I'm thinking there are better alternatives out there from the PC overclocking/modding crowd that could do a much better job on a CFM/Amp basis. So I'll see if that helps.

I'll definitely be approaching future mods from a bang-for-the-buck standpoint as far as money and time spent. Not a knock on any of the more hard-core mods by any stretch, its just that I've already got too many hobbies and I could see myself getting carried away if I don't limit myself ;)
 
Haha, I totally made the same mistake on the slippage - not paying close attention and looking at the belts in a slightly dark room. I am curious to hear how your belts hold up and if you get any debris inside your wheel from the rapid belt wear that will probably occur due to the softened rubber. Most of the low-drag stuff RXX was working on was only vaguely hinted at, so there's not much you would have probably gotten out of it even if it was still there. One of the ideas that might help you is flipping the pulleys so the force from tensioning the belt runs closer to the nose of the motor. This was actually first suggested by me early in this thread after RXX mentioned he was contemplating moving the belt to run on the grooves closer to the motor rather than the middle of the pulley (near the bottom of page 2 in February 2013) but got appropriated by RXX as his idea later on. He had some intriguing ideas about active belt tensioning but never showed or described any of it he might have actually tried. Also he had some very good pedal mods but I haven't got CSP like he had so they didn't do me much good.

Another good idea might be to get some better fan-mounted heat sinks to mount right on the motors and ditch the crappy stock one. I've never seen the dual fans run opposite directions in the wheels I've worked on, that's very odd.
 
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I wonder if those guys at that Inside Sim Racing would be interested in trying this mod. It would be interesting to me to get their take on it since they get to try all the different wheels. I wouldn't even care if they didn't make a public video on it.
 
Rxx is being a 5yr old, I Pm'd him a while ago asking about his Brake ABS mod asking a few questions and details, Got 1 short 1 liner response and never replied back to anything even after a few repeated attems, Well untill i called him out on being a sour puss and doing what he did.

his reply "There's good reason for what I did there"


IMO he doesn't belong in this community if he's not willing to share mod stuff like what your doing Eric, WHAT good does it do to Hoard that info and not share it.......thats IMO not what these community's are about. Open forums are for Open discussion of thing'..... if you dont want to share. DONT post in a public forum.
 
Guys, if you want to check your bearing preload/pinch to make sure you aren't running into extra drag, here's what to do:





Set up a dial indicator registering on the steering shaft and then check for backlash by either gently prying the shaft back and forth or rotate the steering shaft until the stop collar hits the end of travel - this will push or pull the shaft depending on which direction on the shaft the stop collar is pushing against. Ideally you'd shoot for zero movement or just a tiny bit maybe .001" or .002" (.05mm). This can be adjusted by adding shims in the aluminum front plate between the bearing and the plate (to make it tighter) or by adding shims between the 4 support rods and the front or back aluminum plates (to make it looser). Some wheels I've worked on had shims already and some didn't. The ones with shims have been between the bearing and the front plate, making the preload tighter. The shims they use are clear plastic, so they're easy to miss.
 
Hooray! I fixed my centering issue, had another look at it today to try darken the lines a bit and try to clean the clear sections on the disc, with no luck was still rapidly going off center. Then I had an idea, to move the sensor itself so that the receiving side was closer to the disk in the hope that it would lessen the distortion from the damaged sections, I managed to get the sensor on an angle so it was reading a clear line all the way around, 360 degrees.

Also will I had it apart a gave it a bit of paint work, I was getting tired of the forza Orange now it's gloss black

IMAG0484_zpsef958947.jpg
 
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Great thread on the Fanatec motor problem. I've just shipped my CSW base to Fanatec for the second warranty issue with failing motors. Their support has been good but the motor issue is very disappointing.

I've been communicating with Eric and will be getting his motor mod when he gets his next batch of parts completed. His cooling design moving air through the inside of the motors I believe is good idea but I wonder if there is way to do it without the need for an external air pump.

I've seen pictures of some versions of this type of motor with openings in the case presumably to let hot air escape. For operating at stock power levels what about a small fan attached to a manifold mounted on the motors that directed air flow to openings in the motor cases. I'm guessing it wouldn't take much air flow to make a significant difference in the operating temperature inside the motors and it wouldn't require external air hoses and a noisy pump.

But for modified higher operating voltage the external pump pushing pressurized air through the motors is a 'cool' solution.

I think I need to find a spare CSW.
 
The problem is that the motors are being operated for too high a percentage of time at or very near stall. Even an open can motor will not help in this situation. The reason the pump works is it positively displaces the heat from inside the can and replaces it with cooler room temperature air. We're talking 30-40 liters of air per minute. All the hot air is forced to exit. An open can with a fan blowing at it won't do nearly as well. Even if you duct the air from the fan to the opening the pressure and volume won't be sufficient to get much airflow. A fan will not do well at all if the airflow is confined to such a small opening. If you tried to do this with something such as a PC cooling fan, the pressure will go up and the fan will just slow down. Any fan with enough power and a highly enough pitched blade to get the airflow necessary will almost certainly be as loud or louder than the air pump. Many of the "open" motors have fans built-in and attached to the motor shaft inside the can, but they can only function when the motor is spinning at a high speed, which the ones in our wheels don't often do. As far as cooling goes, the volume is the important part. There's just no alternative with this much heat. If you read my updated first post you'll see that I feel that even the air pump is insufficient if overvolting.

The only other viable options in my opinion are limiting motor current to reduce the heat in the first place or switching to refrigerated (i.e. peltier) liquid cooling.

The former would take a lot of further experimentation without being able to get into the firmware, and the latter will be more expensive and complex than the pumped air cooling.
 
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Another thing, I also forgot to say if it were so easy to do, I surely wouldn't have bothered with the pump et. al. I tried several iterations of cooling (including a couple different fan setups) before I settled on the one I'm using. The fans invariably slowed to the point airflow was basically nil if they were forced to blow into a small cross-sectional area passage.
 
In addition to the above, if you guys running my Bühler mod don't want to run the pump you may be able to get by without it if you run the stock power supply and cut your FF until the wheel doesn't shut off during the maximum FFB events. I'm not sure if it will be even as strong as stock if you do this though. For some of the guys here I know they don't care about strength and just want reliability though. Side benefit is you will be able to get by much cheaper.
 
Completely agree with almost everything you say. Don't get me wrong, I believe you've created the F1 of mods for the Fanatec motor problem. Just wondering if the trade off being the external pump, is there a way to get enough cooling with an internal solution even though as you say it would not be easy.

My premise is that given that a lot of people have not had problems with the OEM motors that have no air flow through them, would it be enough to get a tiny amount of air flow to keep the motors alive for a lot longer? I think the reason Fanatec's heat sink approach isn't good enough is that the motor case can't absorb the heated inside air fast enough. Seems to me some amount of air flow is essential which is why the external air pump is a great straight forward solution.

Your bigger better motors is definitely the primary solution to the problem and I want them but the elegance of an adequate internal cooling solution intrigues me.
 
Hey Eric How long of Air tubes could you technically put on a pump of your specs and not loose anything ? Having a Spare room/workshop beside my rig could prove beneficial to just stick the pump in the next room.
 
Hey Eric How long of Air tubes could you technically put on a pump of your specs and not loose anything ? Having a Spare room/workshop beside my rig could prove beneficial to just stick the pump in the next room.

Nick if you use 1/4" tubing to make most of the run and only switch to the smaller tubing at the wheel you should be fine. The biggest effect from a medium length run like that will be to even out the impulses from the air pump so the airflow will be a little more smooth rather than a pulsating effect like it is right next to the pump. Neither of which makes any real difference as far as cooling.
 
Completely agree with almost everything you say. Don't get me wrong, I believe you've created the F1 of mods for the Fanatec motor problem. Just wondering if the trade off being the external pump, is there a way to get enough cooling with an internal solution even though as you say it would not be easy.

My premise is that given that a lot of people have not had problems with the OEM motors that have no air flow through them, would it be enough to get a tiny amount of air flow to keep the motors alive for a lot longer? I think the reason Fanatec's heat sink approach isn't good enough is that the motor case can't absorb the heated inside air fast enough. Seems to me some amount of air flow is essential which is why the external air pump is a great straight forward solution.

Your bigger better motors is definitely the primary solution to the problem and I want them but the elegance of an adequate internal cooling solution intrigues me.

I agree with you about the stock motors not passing the heat fast enough, but they are having a lot more problems with the motors than any other manufacturer and they all use the same approach, the Fanatec motors are just driven farther above their ratings. If it was as easy as popping in a fan, or doing something else internal to the wheel, I should think Fanatec would have done it in the first place. I don't think there's ever going to be a sufficient internal solution short of limiting current with the FF setting.
 
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