Fanatec CSW/CSR Elite Modders Thread *UPDATE February 2014*

[eKretz]

That's another good point. Electronic switching is relatively instant compared to mechanical. Logi, you may not be worried about a leak with hydraulics but anyone who has worked with them would be. It's not about being in the weather or bouncing around - the hydraulic motor systems usually work at many thousand pounds per square inch of pressure. (Likely 200+ bar if metric is better for you). Cars don't use anything like this except in some power steering systems - ever had one of those leak? I have on many different cars. The constant application and removal of pressure flexes hoses, connections, etc. Things wear out from this due to fatiguing. When this happens you get a blowout. Hoses can fail, connections can fail, solenoids and valves can fail etc. Are you comfortable saying every item you've ever purchased was defect free? Well what if you purchased a defective hydraulic motor, hose or fitting? They'll warranty your part, but not your carpet, paint, etc. Could make your house smell awful for ever if you don't to out the entire floor, subfloor, etc. I wouldn't have one in my house. And yes hydraulic oil is electrically conductive.


The Senso-Drive wheels would be the best on the market right now IMO, but they don't have anything for PC sims or consoles - only for proprietary software and simulators. Basically they are mostly used in high dollar organizations who have the clout and money to write their own dedicated programs like team F1 simulators etc. As far as I know they are the only ones who use a torque sensor on their wheels.

Last time I talked to Senso-Drive they had a wheel capable of 45N•m. And yes they are VERY expensive. IIRC in the neighborhood of 10-15,000 Euros.

 

[eKretz]

I just checked out the used pair of motors out of a wheel I am modding in which the wheel would shut off due to current draw. One stalled at 2.8A and one at 5.6A. (Guess which one is bad? Actually one is really bad and one is just a little bit out of whack but still would work. Lol). So 8.4A was enough to shut down the stock wheel with stock power supply. The Bühler motors draw very near this amount at stall, so it may be that some stock power supplies will be able to run them and some won't. If you drop FF to 90, it may be that most will be able to run them but at reduced power of course. I have yet to get my wheel back together so I can't test how much weaker they'll be yet.

 

[Blue028]

Good point about blow-off valves. Didn't think of that.

Also the reason I say a Bodnar wheel doesn't cut it is this last video of Niels Heusinkveld. A G25 is 14 times too weak (at 2 Nm) for replicating the forces of the car he is calculating. A bodnar wheel has only half of the needed torque (at 14 Nm).

Here is the video:
-snip-

im not sure but i didnt see any relation to the size of the steering wheel being factored in, obviously the larger diameter wheel the moro turning leverage you have. it seemed to me that that force he calculated would be the force directly at the shaft of the steering wheel

 

[Blue028]

I just checked out the used pair of motors out of a wheel I am modding in which the wheel would shut off due to current draw. One stalled at 2.8A and one at 5.6A. (Guess which one is bad? Actually one is really bad and one is just a little bit out of whack but still would work. Lol). So 8.4A was enough to shut down the stock wheel with stock power supply. The Bühler motors draw very near this amount at stall, so it may be that some stock power supplies will be able to run them and some won't. If you drop FF to 90, it may be that most will be able to run them but at reduced power of course. I have yet to get my wheel back together so I can't test how much weaker they'll be yet.

i am intrested to see how much differecne there will be, at the moment im quiet happy just running mine on the stock power supply, that i havent even bothered to wire up my other one yet

 

[eKretz]

The force he calculated is the holding torque that it would take to hold the wheel stationary while cornering at those parameters. Torque is the same no matter the wheel diameter as it's measured at the centerline of the steering shaft. The force at the periphery of the wheel will vary based on wheel diameter.

 

[eKretz]

i am intrested to see how much differecne there will be, at the moment im quiet happy just running mine on the stock power supply, that i havent even bothered to wire up my other one yet

I'm going to have it back together tonight hopefully. I haven't been feeling too well today but I think I'm starting to feel better, so I'll probably get started shortly. I'll post up the results if so. Do you have any way of checking your stall amperage? I'm curious if your motors are under the 8.4A that shut down this wheel. I'm thinking your power supply is just dropping the voltage to compensate for the excess current draw and just barely keeping up.

 

[ultimate]

Dunno if i should post there
but can CSW handle FFFB at maximum?
Fanatec discourages people to not using all settings at maximum.
I know CSW has strong FFB, i am currently using 100% FF and lower some effect around 100 (DPR, SPR, FOR,,,)
I want to keep CSW reliable as long as possible

 

[eKretz]

Okeydoke. Just got done reassembling and testing with the stock power supply. I can safely say that it won't work on my wheel with the stock supply at FF100. While it will work during lower FFB, if it hits max torque, it shuts off instantly. Steven, check your wheel like this: set SENS to 90° and FF100, then turn your wheel past the soft stop. Mine shuts off immediately. This is equivalent to hitting a max FFB event. I tried racing in F1 2013 also and got shut off several times within a single lap. I then turned down FF to 80 and was able to hit max FFB without shutting down. To check this you have to set SPR to a higher number and crank the wheel. You can't use the 90° SENS method because the soft stops always use full stall current, no matter where you have FF set. So if you run the stock power supply at FF80 and hit the soft stop because your SENS is set lower it will still shut the wheel off. I didn't bother checking the amperage draw, as it's not very important as long as the wheel doesn't shut down.

Now, onto the torque level. Here is a copy/paste from the first post showing the resultant torques without current limiting:

Stock motors @24VDC pulled 8.5 pounds@~5.38"R. So about 3.8 lbs./ft. (5.2 N•m) of torque.

Buhler motors @24VDC pulled 14.5 pounds@~5.38"R. or 6.5lbs./ft. (8.8N•m).

Buhler motors @30VDC pulled 18.25 pounds@~5.38"R. or 8.2lbs./ft. (11.1N•m).

Buhler motors @40VDC pulled 21.25 pounds@~5.38"R. or 9.53lbs./ft. (12.9N•m)

Now then, when running the stock power supply at FF80, guess what? You STILL get more torque than stock! Great news for everybody - those who don't want super powerful wheels can run their stock power supplies and still get decent power. However I still wouldn't advise this unless you are really tight on funds because you will lose out on some linearity on the bottom end with the weaker forces. With PC sims this can be tuned out pretty easily with the minimum force setting, but for consoles it will chop out some of the weakest forces. So anyways, here are the results:

Bühler motors @24VDC with the stock power supply pulled 11lbs.@~5.38"R. or 4.9lbs./ft. (6.6N•m).

While I was reassembling I took a couple more shots of the internal mods as well as a shot showing one of my bearing preload reducing shims peeking out (circled in red). It took .006" shim on my wheel to get the pinch where I wanted it. After this and changing from grease to oil in the bearings and limit screw and deburring the limit screw and nut, I tried the infamous coast test and my wheel coasted about 800°. So not quite as good as RXX's but I also didn't dig too deeply into the belt mods either. I'm not keen on having my belts disintegrate inside the wheel base personally.

Fan mod so the fans are directly hardwired into the power supply. As I run higher voltages so do the fans - so I get a bit better air movement at 36V:



Better heatsink on the drive MOSFETs and also the back side of the PCB behind them:



Another shot of the heatsinks; you can also see my paralleled drive MOSFETs here if you look closely:



And there is a tiny corner of blue shim poking out between the support and endplate if you look closely here:



Now I just need to do some further linearity and Wheelcheck tests so I can add the results to the graphs with the others.

 

[eKretz]

Dunno if i should post there
but can CSW handle FFFB at maximum?
Fanatec discourages people to not using all settings at maximum.
I know CSW has strong FFB, i am currently using 100% FF and lower some effect around 100 (DPR, SPR, FOR,,,)
I want to keep CSW reliable as long as possible

Sure, you can post here. Keep your FF and SPR settings lower if you want to preserve your stock motors longer. It will weaken your wheel but it should help keep the motors alive longer.

 

[ultimate]

thanks Ekrezt
if you dont mind can you take a look to my own settings
i am currently using it on F1 2013 on PS3

SEN: 330
FF:100
SHO: 100
ABS: 100
LIN: off
DEA: off
DRI: off
FOR: 100
SPR: 100
DPR: 100

in game settings
FFB 100
EE 0
WW 100
which settings should i lower or put it off for reliability's purpose?

 

[eKretz]

You can lower both FF and SPR, as well as the in-game FFB level. All of those will help. It's a pretty personal decision really, you need to balance what feels right and good with your longevity concerns.

 

[Blue028]

That was the first thing I tried Eric, turning the wheel past the ffb lock . Nothing, I had a good long session on it today and its still going strong on the stock power supply. I'm wondering wether it has something to do with my power supply being slightly different to suit the higher voltage sockets in my country?

Or maybe I'm just really lucky

 

[ultimate]

You can lower both FF and SPR, as well as the in-game FFB level. All of those will help. It's a pretty personal decision really, you need to balance what feels right and good with your longevity concerns.

i definitely dislike lower FF and SPR, maybe should i increase other setting in order to balance it
i ve heard about dampers create friction which is not good for wheel reliability
is that right?
maybe should i lower FF and SPR but in meantime increase FOR?

 

[bumer]

i definitely dislike lower FF and SPR, maybe should i increase other setting in order to balance it
i ve heard about dampers create friction which is not good for wheel reliability
is that right?

Why do you have damper 100%? I personally don't like it at all and keep it 0, feels a lot better to me.

 

[Mayaman]

This looks like a promotional / sales thread now. Especially with the revisions to the first and other posts. Not that there is anything wrong with that per se, I am just saying...

LOL are you kidding me dude? *slaps forehead*

 

[ultimate]

Do Shock vibration and ABS affect reliability of wheel?

 

[eKretz]

That was the first thing I tried Eric, turning the wheel past the ffb lock . Nothing, I had a good long session on it today and its still going strong on the stock power supply. I'm wondering wether it has something to do with my power supply being slightly different to suit the higher voltage sockets in my country?

Or maybe I'm just really lucky

That may well be it. I don't have any way of testing that theory though, so maybe we'll have some of the other guys who run on similar voltage try it on theirs also. It may be that only 120V guys can't use the stock supply, but I am still at a loss to explain that unless it's just a variance between wheels like on our heat sink/motor locations. Another thing - what is your belt length on the motor belt? Mine is a 584, but I know there were some different sizes. Another thing is you could have a little stretchier belt than I do and were able to pull your motors farther out from center. My motor mount bolts are barely off of the left side of the slots, where are yours?

 

[Jump_Ace]

thanks Ekrezt
if you dont mind can you take a look to my own settings
i am currently using it on F1 2013 on PS3

SEN: 330
FF:100
SHO: 100
ABS: 100
LIN: off
DEA: off
DRI: off
FOR: 100
SPR: 100
DPR: 100

in game settings
FFB 100
EE 0
WW 100
which settings should i lower or put it off for reliability's purpose?

I tried to find a spec sheet that describes each CSR/CSR-E settings, I couldn't find anything on the Fanatec site. I eventually found a site that does and I took out some of the extra verbage, created a pdf and moved it to my Website.


Jerome

 

[ultimate]

Many thanks to you, these are good explanations.

 

[eKretz]

i definitely dislike lower FF and SPR, maybe should i increase other setting in order to balance it
i ve heard about dampers create friction which is not good for wheel reliability
is that right?
maybe should i lower FF and SPR but in meantime increase FOR?

Anything you do to increase the felt power at the wheel will reduce your motors' life. It may last forever at full power, or it may crap out at the reduced settings in 3 months. What I'm trying to say is that these stock motors are not very consistent, so it's hard to give a guideline that will be remotely accurate.

 

[ultimate]

i figured it out, 100 FF from wheel and in-game settings were actually too much
while it feels great it takes me some strength to handle wheel
i tried 2 settings in order to compare it
- first setting: in game, FF:100, WW:100, EE OFF
SEN 330, FF, ABS, SHO and SPR 100, rest OFF
tried it on 3 tracks, Montreal, Interlagos and Brand Hatch
Brand Hatch, fast circuit with long and fast kerbs
higher FF does help me on these type of tracks because it has many fast kerbs

in the opposite, i lowered FF to 70 only from wheel setting and felt immediately the difference
on these tracks, it makes my driving style more twitchy but does help me for slower corners

then i tried these both settings on typical modern F1 circuits such as Austin that has many u-turn and s
on first setting, got stuck by slower corners, needed so much strenghts that i got eventually exhaustive
second setting was much better

i conclude maximum FFB does help on fast corners/kerbs and lower FFB you can turn faster and it helps you for slower corners

now i need to set my pedal's setting lol
by any chance, does anyone have luck to own both CSP V2 and CSR-Elite pedals?
i wonder if both have same stiffness on throttle pedal

 

[ultimate]

i was wrong lol, FFB from wheel setting should be set to 100 and adjusts from in-game settings

 

[eKretz]

No, you can change the FF setting, as long as you have the latest firmware it doesn't clip the FFB like it used to on the original firmware. One thing I've noticed in the F1 games by codemaster - for some reason when you turn the wheel back to center after making a sharp turn, the wheel seems to apply some serious damping to the return to center for some reason. Maybe I need to tweak my wheel weight/environmental settings a bit, haven't played with it too much because I enjoy racing a lot more than playing with the settings, lol.

 

[ultimate]

last F1 game i ve used to drive was F1 2010 with G27
once i have good settings, i will not go inside anymore lol
i notice huge improve of inverting FFB from settings to in-game, proper and smoother FFB feeling
wheel weight doesnt change my feeling though
i am currently set Force and Damper off, only Spring is set to 100, i guess its the resistance for the return to center
not that bad if you put correct value, you drive style becomes more smoother and less twichy
on long kerb, you should fight against it
but if you understeer your going to be out the track
on slower corners, it help you to be smoother and reach the apex with more accuracy

 

[eKretz]

OK here's a nice tidbit for the guys with the wheels that only have one fan if you want to upgrade to two:

This is a blueprint for the bracket you'll need to make to bolt in a 70mm square fan that's 25mm thick. That's what Fanatec has in the 2-fan wheels. You use your stock 3mm screws in the outside 4 holes to bolt the bracket to the side panel, and you'll need to buy (4) 3mm socket head cap screws about 30mm long as well as nuts to screw onto them to fasten the fan to the bracket using the 4 inside holes. You can wire the fan to the Fan 2 socket on your board if it has one. If not, you can wire it in parallel to the original fan (red to red, black to black).
If anyone wants me to, I could probably supply a kit, but I'm not planning on it unless you guys really want one, since this is pretty easy to DIY.

 

[Eglan]

No worries, lol.

Hello ekretz,
Absolutely great work on these CSR and CSW wheelbases. You have these figured out to a T inside and out!!
I am looking at extending the shaft from my CSW wheelbase to the steering wheel (somewhere between 12inches and 36inches). I am nervous about unscrewing any of these bolts, so I need your wisdom. How do I get to the existing shaft on the wheelbase?
I plan to shift the quick release 'male' connector presently at the wheelbase to one end of the new shaft with the other end connected into the wheelbase.
Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

 

[eKretz]

OK, so you need to pull off your steering wheel and remove the 5 screws in a pentagonal pattern to remove the QR adapter, but before you can pull the wires out through the shaft you'll need to get inside the wheelbase and unplug the 12-pin cable from the PCB. To do that, just take off the rear black plastic cover and remove the two screws holding the PCB to the base, then pivot the board up towards the top of the wheel if you don't want to unplug everything else and remove the plug. You may have to peel off some hot glue to get it out. You'll need to bend the plug/wire so that it will go through the center of the steering shaft, then you can just pull it right through using the QR collar (which you should have unscrewed first). From there it's all yours.

All I ask for payment is that you post some pictures of your mod when you're done.

 

[Eglan]

OK, so you need to pull off your steering wheel and remove the 5 screws in a pentagonal pattern to remove the QR adapter, but before you can pull the wires out through the shaft you'll need to get inside the wheelbase and unplug the 12-pin cable from the PCB. To do that, just take off the rear black plastic cover and remove the two screws holding the PCB to the base, then pivot the board up towards the top of the wheel if you don't want to unplug everything else and remove the plug. You may have to peel off some hot glue to get it out. You'll need to bend the plug/wire so that it will go through the center of the steering shaft, then you can just pull it right through using the QR collar (which you should have unscrewed first). From there it's all yours.

All I ask for payment is that you post some pictures of your mod when you're done.

Thanks very much. You make it sound doable:-)
No problem with the payment terms...if I can get it done that is:-)

I assume that I can get an extension for the 12-pin cable and that the shaft has a register (a groove or mark) to show the alignment position of the QR collar onto the shaft to ensure that I reposition properly? Or do I have to then re-calibrate as one does when first setting up the steering wheel?

 

[eKretz]

The cabling will probably be the most time consuming part. You might be able to find an extension or something at Mouser or Digikey, but another option would be to cut the wires one at a time and splice in a longer section in the middle of the connectors, soldering and heat shrinking each connection. If you go this route, make certain that you stagger the cuts/joints so that you don't have a big knot of bulging solder joints all in one place - they may not fit inside your tube like that. The shaft and collar do have an identifying feature - a hole that looks like it was meant to be for a small aligning dowel pin that was never used - at least not in my wheel.

 

[Eglan]

The cabling will probably be the most time consuming part. You might be able to find an extension or something at Mouser or Digikey, but another option would be to cut the wires one at a time and splice in a longer section in the middle of the connectors, soldering and heat shrinking each connection. If you go this route, make certain that you stagger the cuts/joints so that you don't have a big knot of bulging solder joints all in one place - they may not fit inside your tube like that. The shaft and collar do have an identifying feature - a hole that looks like it was meant to be for a small aligning dowel pin that was never used - at least not in my wheel.

Thank you very much, sir. I shall try this as soon as I can find the shaft of adequate diameter as well as the courage...:-)