Fanatec CSW/CSR Elite Modders Thread *UPDATE February 2014*
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- Eric_J2358
I did both of those on my CSR Elite pedals. I moved the fulcrum point one hole on my brake pedal which allowed better modulation but that also made the pedal very weak. I added a spacer in between the pedal rod and the load cell to stiffen it up a bit and also added dual R/C truck shocks to get a bit more spring force and some damping. The gas pedal I swapped the springs from the clutch and the accelerator and I also tightened the adjusting collar a ways. I think I have some photos earlier in this thread or maybe in another dedicated thread.
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- Eric_J2358
One of our guys has been trying out Bühler motors on his stock power supply and says he seems to be having pretty good success with it even at 100FF in his preliminary findings. We'll have to wait until he can test a little more in-depth, but it sounds promising for those who don't want more power and just want the more reliable/bulletproof motors. Hopefully he'll have some more good news to report soon. I haven't got around to testing the stock PS in-depth yet as I have been busy making more parts every time I get some spare time. Keep your fingers crossed!
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- Jump_Ace
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- Eric_J2358
He said he's been at FF100 on the wheel - not sure what he's at in-game. In my initial testing I did a long time ago this would work but when the FFB peaked at a high level the wheel would shut off. Not sure if he just hasn't run into that yet or what. I also really didn't like the feel and it seemed to be clipping the higher FFB signals to me.
I'm going to do some linearity testing hopefully today or tomorrow and I'll also do some comparison tests to see what the max torque is with the stock supply vs. with the 10A supply so people have a better idea what the difference is between the stock motors, Bühler motors with stock supply and Bühler motors with the 10A supply. With the 10A supply they should be roughly not quite twice as strong.
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LogiForce
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Okay, here is a silly thought.
What would the result be if we had two different types of motors in our wheels?
One being a high torque can that is used in say RC Trucks. The other a more high rpm can.
Personally I was thinking a bit along the lines of changing the powerband this way, while keeping a mechanical load balance between the two.
Kinda like a Lancia Delta S4 that is supercharged and turbocharged. Having the torque to pull away in low RPM conditions and than power to achieve great speeds.
Now in relation to a steering wheel it means that it has the motor designed to give you the torque you want to go against the resistance your hands offer, and brake to change direction. Yet once the other motor kicks in the wheel with have the speed to get at the requested wheel position in time. Which is important for drifting/rally and other situations where you have to have the steeringwheel countersteer quickly for the wheels to be in the right location in game. The right location is the direction in which the cars center of steering will be.
So yeah, would different motors be a good thing? If the mechanical difference between the two is smooth. I am thinking this would lower the overal heat production, as the load is mechanically send to the one who can handle it best.
Maybe something like these two as a combination:
Truck Puller 3: http://www.lrp.cc/de/produkte/elektromotoren/brushed/produkt/truck-puller-3-12-v/details/
Big Block 2: http://www.lrp.cc/de/produkte/elektromotoren/brushed/produkt/bigblock-special-2-motor/details/
What would the result be if we had two different types of motors in our wheels?
One being a high torque can that is used in say RC Trucks. The other a more high rpm can.
Personally I was thinking a bit along the lines of changing the powerband this way, while keeping a mechanical load balance between the two.
Kinda like a Lancia Delta S4 that is supercharged and turbocharged. Having the torque to pull away in low RPM conditions and than power to achieve great speeds.
Now in relation to a steering wheel it means that it has the motor designed to give you the torque you want to go against the resistance your hands offer, and brake to change direction. Yet once the other motor kicks in the wheel with have the speed to get at the requested wheel position in time. Which is important for drifting/rally and other situations where you have to have the steeringwheel countersteer quickly for the wheels to be in the right location in game. The right location is the direction in which the cars center of steering will be.
So yeah, would different motors be a good thing? If the mechanical difference between the two is smooth. I am thinking this would lower the overal heat production, as the load is mechanically send to the one who can handle it best.
Maybe something like these two as a combination:
Truck Puller 3: http://www.lrp.cc/de/produkte/elektromotoren/brushed/produkt/truck-puller-3-12-v/details/
Big Block 2: http://www.lrp.cc/de/produkte/elektromotoren/brushed/produkt/bigblock-special-2-motor/details/
- 391
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ok, i have had my buhler motors in and running on the stock power supply for the past couple of days, but havent had much time testing them. just got off a sesion then with them, i was running Assetto corsa in the group a bmw, in game FFB set to 100 and 100 on the wheel also. now with the stock motors this would give you very bad clipping, just turning in would clip the FFB but with the buhlers i found it quite difficult to hit the clip. and to my suprise i was expecting running this high FFB with the stock power supply would make the wheel shut down under heavy load (i had this experience with other motors i used) but it hasnt happened, not once. wich is odd but i am not complaining 
i also drove the new lotus 125 aswel, was quiet fun and again same settings with no issues with the wheel cutting out.
(i aslo always manually adjust the lock ingame and on the wheel so it matches up corectly, i dont know if it makes much difference to the feel but i like having the ffb lock stop instead of turning past the virtuil full lock)
i even tested it very breifly with forza aswell as rfactor anf LFS as previous motors i used would cut the wheel off if it hit full lock but had no probles with the buhlers.
other notes from my experience so far;
the motors feel noticeably stronger than stock when on 100% FFB, and the wheel will spin just as fast if not faster than stock. but when lowering the FF to feel the same as the stock motors the RPM of the wheel will drop.
i will not that i dont have the thermister/temp sensor plugged in, i dont know if that actually makes a difference or not
EDIT: also note that i use a 330mm steering wheel for racing and a 350mm wheel for drifting
i also drove the new lotus 125 aswel, was quiet fun and again same settings with no issues with the wheel cutting out.
(i aslo always manually adjust the lock ingame and on the wheel so it matches up corectly, i dont know if it makes much difference to the feel but i like having the ffb lock stop instead of turning past the virtuil full lock)
i even tested it very breifly with forza aswell as rfactor anf LFS as previous motors i used would cut the wheel off if it hit full lock but had no probles with the buhlers.
other notes from my experience so far;
the motors feel noticeably stronger than stock when on 100% FFB, and the wheel will spin just as fast if not faster than stock. but when lowering the FF to feel the same as the stock motors the RPM of the wheel will drop.
i will not that i dont have the thermister/temp sensor plugged in, i dont know if that actually makes a difference or not
EDIT: also note that i use a 330mm steering wheel for racing and a 350mm wheel for drifting
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- Eric_J2358
That's great news. That will help guys who are tight on funds and guys who only want more reliability but aren't worried too much about more torque and also will make the motors last even longer for them. (Not that they probably won't last forever even with an unlimited amperage). I don't recommend plugging in the temp sensor/thermistor with these motors anyway, the temp curve is set up for the stock motors and the Bühlers can take a lot more heat. Now I just need to get my wheel back together so I can do the torque testing to see exactly how much of a loss there is vs. with the unlimited power supply. The guys who want more strength will still want to go with that most likely. I much prefer it at 36V even myself. I'm amazed that your wheel isn't shutting down like it did to me. I'll try again with the new motors I'm putting in and see if I can duplicate your results.
Dropping the FF setting drops the RPM and torque because it limits the voltage and amperage to the motors. This is what happens when the thermistor senses a certain temperature also. If it isn't necessary that's great news, I'm still surprised that it's not shutting the wheel down, lol. It must be right on the edge.
Dropping the FF setting drops the RPM and torque because it limits the voltage and amperage to the motors. This is what happens when the thermistor senses a certain temperature also. If it isn't necessary that's great news, I'm still surprised that it's not shutting the wheel down, lol. It must be right on the edge.
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That won't work, the motors would just be fighting each other the whole time, and at stall you'd get the same amount of heat if you have the same stall current - more if one was a higher RPM wind probably. You can get all the RPM you want by raising voltage - this also raises the stall current - hence you also get more torque. But more wattage = more heat. (Volts x amps = watts).
LogiForce
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In other words, it can't be done without fancy electronics.
I am really starting to think that these electric motors are absolutely crap for the application. I think a quickly switching/reversing pneumatic system (pneumatic being air driven, hydraulic oil driven. For those who don't know) would be better. Basically rebuilding a powersteering system in small form factor, or using pneumatic reversible motors instead. Especially since we need air for cooling anyway.
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- 2,801
- fatkrakr
I don't think its so much an issue with using electric motors. I think the problem is we cant use motors that are better suited for the job without new firmware being written. If Fanatec was willing to admit the motors aren't up to the task we could then work on getting some proper motors for these wheels. Until then we are stuck with trying to find the best compromise within the firmware limits. Im not so sure Fanatec is willing to admit such, even though the evidence is everywhere, or help with any firmware support. 
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- Eric_J2358
Yup. They should have gone with a bigger single motor like Thrustmaster did and then used the firmware and power supply to run it nearer to its rated power level. Then we might not need any cooling at all. I think maybe they made a cost-based decision on that one.
Using another type of power is an interesting idea but would be very difficult in practice. Brushed DC motors have a lot of power in a very small package - using air or hydraulic motors would take a lot more space to get the same strength. Air motors also aren't very torquey unless they're geared - which makes them awful hard to turn. (Like when you'd be trying to overpower the wheel), so you'd need some sort of mechanism also to allow you to turn the wheel past where the base was holding it. Hydraulic would require some sort of mechanism also to let you turn the wheel - hydraulic fluid is effectively incompressible.
Using another type of power is an interesting idea but would be very difficult in practice. Brushed DC motors have a lot of power in a very small package - using air or hydraulic motors would take a lot more space to get the same strength. Air motors also aren't very torquey unless they're geared - which makes them awful hard to turn. (Like when you'd be trying to overpower the wheel), so you'd need some sort of mechanism also to allow you to turn the wheel past where the base was holding it. Hydraulic would require some sort of mechanism also to let you turn the wheel - hydraulic fluid is effectively incompressible.
LogiForce
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I don't think its so much an issue with using electric motors. I think the problem is we cant use motors that are better suited for the job without new firmware being written. If Fanatec was willing to admit the motors aren't up to the task we could then work on getting some proper motors for these wheels. Until then we are stuck with trying to find the best compromise within the firmware limits. Im not so sure Fanatec is willing to admit such, even though the evidence is everywhere, or help with any firmware support.
The electric motors against their stall torque tend to burn up, plus the fact that even a Leo Bodnar SimSteering wheel doesn't produce enough torque.
Those two facts make me say that electric motors suck for the application, especially since the bigger motor of Leo still doesn't produce enough torque and gets very hot at and over 100+ degrees Celcius.
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Well again, we're arriving at cost effectiveness and feel too. If they wanted to they could use a motor that would rip your arms out our throw you out of your chair, but it would be very expensive and would use a LOT of electricity as well. Just as an example - if a wheel maker used a 500 HP electric motor in his wheel but only ran it with enough electricity to develop 50 HP, it wouldn't really get all that hot even if it sat at full stall all day long. It would also be extremely difficult to turn even with no power applied because it is a huge motor. The bigger the motor, the more power (and thus heat, IE wattage) they can take. However, the closer you get to running a motor at its rated capacity the hotter it will get. Fanatec is just running their motors too far above their rated capacities. If Leo's motors are running over 100°C then he is pushing it also. But this is also dependent on the sim being played and the FFB level used.
LogiForce
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That's another issue with electric motors. They are power hungry. So once you get at decent power/torque outputs, you'd need an extra group in your fuse box at home just to specifically power your wheel.
I think going pneumatic would be less power hungry, produce more torque and speed and generate less heat. The let down is noise of the compressor pump, but since you are already upgrading the wheels to air cooling... the difference between a properly cooled wheel or a pneumatic wheel noise wise is neglegible I would think.
Sorry, but from my point of view the electric motor is not an efficient device for this application. Cost wise it might be nice for low end wheels, but I think that once you go above 500 dollars and for sure above 1000 dollar... you would be better of going pneumatic or maybe even hydraulic (even more torque).
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A pneumatic solution we be extremely noisy. You would need an air compressor to get enough psi to move the wheel fast enough. Then there is the noise from the pneumatic pistons blowing off the unneeded compressed air with each direction change of the wheel.
Hydraulics would be very cool, but also VERY expensive to get into a size comparable to current wheel sizes. At that size I think you would also still have some heat issues to deal with.
LogiForce
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Good point about blow-off valves. Didn't think of that.
Also the reason I say a Bodnar wheel doesn't cut it is this last video of Niels Heusinkveld. A G25 is 14 times too weak (at 2 Nm) for replicating the forces of the car he is calculating. A bodnar wheel has only half of the needed torque (at 14 Nm).
Here is the video:
- 84
- Central Wisconsin
How about the AccuForce wheel by SimExperience? That seems to run quite cool while offering good power and FFB. Is there much known about what components are used in those?
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Both of those options could be great if done right, but again, it's very difficult to beat the power density of an electric motor. That's why they're used pretty much in everything. For a pneumatic system you need compressor (expensive! Going to take a lot of CFM and pressure to work worth a darn) and valving, air motor, etc. None of this is cheap and takes up a lot of space if you want any strength.
Hydraulic is the same - you need a pump capable of pretty high flow and decent pressure, hydraulic motor, solenoid valves, an electric motor to run the hydro pump, etc etc.
I'm not at all saying it couldn't be done and probably work very well, but it won't likely be done because of the cost, inconvenience and complexity. Who wants a loud air compressor as part of their sim rig? The air pump we are using is not anywhere near as loud as an air compressor that you'd need for a strong sim wheel. My little pump is under 55db, a compressor like you'd need for a good Sim wheel would probably be more like 80-90db. Or what if you get a hydraulic leak? Your whole room could be ruined - high pressure fluid goes FAR and FAST if it springs a leak of more than a drip.
Hydraulic is the same - you need a pump capable of pretty high flow and decent pressure, hydraulic motor, solenoid valves, an electric motor to run the hydro pump, etc etc.
I'm not at all saying it couldn't be done and probably work very well, but it won't likely be done because of the cost, inconvenience and complexity. Who wants a loud air compressor as part of their sim rig? The air pump we are using is not anywhere near as loud as an air compressor that you'd need for a strong sim wheel. My little pump is under 55db, a compressor like you'd need for a good Sim wheel would probably be more like 80-90db. Or what if you get a hydraulic leak? Your whole room could be ruined - high pressure fluid goes FAR and FAST if it springs a leak of more than a drip.
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Those are great points - I can speak to the noise of air-compressors, even small ones are quite loud. My small tractor sprung a hydraulic leak last year - what a mess! In a closed space with electronics it would also be quite a fire hazard.
The hydraulic option did make me think of the systems used in low-rider cars suspensions though. Of course, it wouldn't have to be quite that robust.
LogiForce
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I am not worried about a leak of hydraulics. Heck, it's not like the thing is out in the weather or bouncing up and down like the hydraulics in our cars go through every day.
Anyways, others might and they might be scared of the idea that 'when it pops... it splashes'.
So what we need is more something along the lines of this than?
BMW uses this: http://www.sensodrive.de/EN/Produkte/drehmomentgeregelte-Antriebe/Senso-Wheel-SD-17C.php
They have a better one too now: http://www.sensodrive.de/EN/Produkte/drehmomentgeregelte-Antriebe/SD-25B.php
They sell different solutions as well: http://www.sensodrive.de/EN/Produkte/Force-Feedback-Wheels/Force-Feedback-Wheels.php
Anyways, others might and they might be scared of the idea that 'when it pops... it splashes'.
So what we need is more something along the lines of this than?
BMW uses this: http://www.sensodrive.de/EN/Produkte/drehmomentgeregelte-Antriebe/Senso-Wheel-SD-17C.php
They have a better one too now: http://www.sensodrive.de/EN/Produkte/drehmomentgeregelte-Antriebe/SD-25B.php
They sell different solutions as well: http://www.sensodrive.de/EN/Produkte/Force-Feedback-Wheels/Force-Feedback-Wheels.php
- 84
- Central Wisconsin
Very interesting - I wonder how expensive those are.
