FITT - Federation of International Tuners and Test-Drivers

[DolHaus]

I thought id give it a go. See how many headaches it causes me. I have a partner in crime though so its all good. We can share the work and any questions raised.

As long as the idea is basically sound then the headaches will be minimal, mostly its just a case of staying on top of the sign ups and results as they come in. There are plenty of folks around to ask for an opinion if you get stuck

 

[shaunm80]

As long as the idea is basically sound then the headaches will be minimal, mostly its just a case of staying on top of the sign ups and results as they come in. There are plenty of folks around to ask for an opinion if you get stuck

Indeed there are. GTPlanet is a very helpful place for assistance. I can't foresee too many headaches right now so I am fairly confident is should run smoothly. The idea is sound. Its been thrashed out, expanded and brought back together again into a nice, neat package. All going well, it should be enjoyable for all involved.

 

[brian wolf]

I like the idea if a group B challenge but how would leader board be done as each track length and average lap is different.
So if say ten testers have a go and we get all six tracks run. And say we get lucky and three testers use the same track buts it's the longest. Wouldn't that throw the entire average off?

I would average the times for each track and then add together for a total time. Quickest time across the tested tracks wins.

@brian wolf Love the idea of a rally challenge, but having multiple tracks are always a nightmare for testers.

Testers would only have to test 1 track, not all 6. Though because the longest lap is 1:10ish some testers would probably do 2 if they dig the cars. A compulsory tune/track amendment sheet would help with setup change issues.

Maybe use the longer Eiger layout as it has both tarmac and gravel to contend with?

I thought about that one. But its a very long lap and only a tiny bit of tarmac at the end. I think consistant results would be difficult to achieve.

I have some ideas for the Rally challenge. I did one in GT5. https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/f-i-t-t-rally-and-street-tuner-challenge-by-mch.260406/

I tested every rally car in GT5 but have only driven a few in GT6. In GT5 the newer rally cars ruled, but the older ones are soooo cool. We could split this into a new group and an old group. If we continue to get large tuner turnouts, you could limit the tuner to choosing one of the classes.

I`m only really interested in the 4 proper 4x4 Group B cars. But if there is enough interest in the newer cars maybe someone could co-host and run a WRC class? I really wanted any complexity in this challenge to come from lots of different tracks to tune for rather than cars to tune.

Feels like we need a simple challenge next, the current one is a massive strain on the testers and I reckon they could do with a break

I`m with you on that one! I just wanted to see if there was any interest. Its been a year or so since the STi vs Evo challenge and rally hasn`t been mentioned since!

 

[Otaliema]

@brian wolf i presume there would a testing rule that you must all cars on the same track.
I agree on using W trail as K trail is ridiculously hard to be consistent unless you're already good at rally.

I had something else to say but it ran away screaming once I catch it I'll post

 

[DolHaus]

I would average the times for each track and then add together for a total time. Quickest time across the tested tracks wins.


Testers would only have to test 1 track, not all 6. Though because the longest lap is 1:10ish some testers would probably do 2 if they dig the cars. A compulsory tune/track amendment sheet would help with setup change issues.


I thought about that one. But its a very long lap and only a tiny bit of tarmac at the end. I think consistant results would be difficult to achieve.


I`m only really interested in the 4 proper 4x4 Group B cars. But if there is enough interest in the newer cars maybe someone could co-host and run a WRC class? I really wanted any complexity in this challenge to come from lots of different tracks to tune for rather than cars to tune.


I`m with you on that one! I just wanted to see if there was any interest. Its been a year or so since the STi vs Evo challenge and rally hasn`t been mentioned since!

I'm definitely down for a rally challenge, any excuse to get stupid and sideways 👍


I'm trying to formulate some kind of stage based way of doing it like a real rally but it smells of complications
-
A number of different stages (tracks)
Testing open for a week per stage (doesn't necessarily need every tester testing every stage)
Fixed (low) amount of laps to set a time
Tuners retune for next stage during testing period
Spring rates, parts and gearing stay constant but dampers/ARBs and final gear can be changed between stages
Stage victories for drivers and tuners and an overall victor when all are added up

It would be quite a long challenge but it could be fun to be able to tweak based on live feed back

 

[Otaliema]

@DolHaus @brian wolf maybe the two of you should put heads together and plan a stage based challenge.
Just a thought that maybe tuners and drivers are paired up for the duration of the challenge with a handicap to account for various driving skill levels.
Handicap would be established with a "stock tuned car" with a decent driver at the wheel then you get 75% bonus/penalty from your time to the average time.
To keep things closer. Just an idea

 

[brian wolf]

@brian wolf i presume there would a testing rule that you must all cars on the same track.
I agree on using W trail as K trail is ridiculously hard to be consistent unless you're already good at rally.

I had something else to say but it ran away screaming once I catch it I'll post

Absolutely, testers pick a track and test all tunes there.

I'm definitely down for a rally challenge, any excuse to get stupid and sideways 👍


I'm trying to formulate some kind of stage based way of doing it like a real rally but it smells of complications
-
A number of different stages (tracks)
Testing open for a week per stage (doesn't necessarily need every tester testing every stage)
Fixed (low) amount of laps to set a time
Tuners retune for next stage during testing period
Spring rates, parts and gearing stay constant but dampers/ARBs and final gear can be changed between stages
Stage victories for drivers and tuners and an overall victor when all are added up

It would be quite a long challenge but it could be fun to be able to tweak based on live feed back

I thought of that too. But, then I thought of the problems a physics update would cause! And whether it could run alongside another challenge and still get enough testers to make it worthwhile. Many pitfalls methinks!

 

[DolHaus]

Absolutely, testers pick a track and test all tunes there.


I thought of that too. But, then I thought of the problems a physics update would cause! And whether it could run alongside another challenge and still get enough testers to make it worthwhile. Many pitfalls methinks!

Yeah it would be ambitious to say the least, it might just hold together if we could predict 8 weeks into the future but it could equally fall apart at the drop of a hat. Would be fun if we could pull it off but I just don't see it happening, KISS rule wins again

 

[CSLACR]

Just want to throw this out there, the past few shootout have had set specs, or different restrictions in the name of having a relatively equal shootout.
If you are planning a shootout, and want to match a list of cars up that can compete, I have much practice in this area and would gladly help.

 

[fordracer]

Has a Challenge /Shootout ever been tried with stock car vs tuned car, same track, points awarded to biggest improvement?

 

[CSLACR]

What about a tester shootout?

Has a Challenge /Shootout ever been tried with stock car vs tuned car, same track, points awarded to biggest improvement?

No, we beat the idea to death and just never do it!

MUST be a long track for this though. Nurburgring, Ascari, Spa, something long enough that testers can't be the deciding factor so easily.

 

[fordracer]

No, we beat the idea to death and just never do it!

Problems with scoring? Classes? Tracks?

 

[DolHaus]

Has a Challenge /Shootout ever been tried with stock car vs tuned car, same track, points awarded to biggest improvement?

Too difficult to quantify really, time differences could vary massively between drivers based on driving and tuning skill.
eg. A less skilled driver running a poorly tuned car might gain 6 seconds on a lap whereas an alien level driver using the automotive version of perfection might only gain 1 second - Does this mean that the 6 second gain car is better?

 

[fordracer]

Hmmmmmmm. Like it from both aspects. Car Shootout or Tester Shootout.

 

[fordracer]

Too difficult to quantify really, time differences could vary massively between drivers based on driving and tuning skill.
eg. A less skilled driver running a poorly tuned car might gain 6 seconds on a lap whereas an alien level driver using the automotive version of perfection might only gain 1 second - Does this mean that the 6 second gain car is better?

Good Points.

 

[DolHaus]

Its basically the same concept as seasonal time trials (tuning to improve your own lap time while indirectly competing against others)

 

[Otaliema]

What about a tester shootout?



No, we beat the idea to death and just never do it!

MUST be a long track for this though. Nurburgring, Ascari, Spa, something long enough that testers can't be the deciding factor so easily.

and long tracks tend to discourage testers due to time commitment.

Problems with scoring? Classes? Tracks?

I agree with dolhaus on the biggest reasons.

Too difficult to quantify really, time differences could vary massively between drivers based on driving and tuning skill.
eg. A less skilled driver running a poorly tuned car might gain 6 seconds on a lap whereas an alien level driver using the automotive version of perfection might only gain 1 second - Does this mean that the 6 second gain car is better?

Totally agree the only way I could see this working is a DC/consistency challenge where fastest laps is ill relevant for the podium. It would be a requirement that the "stock" tune is only semi consistent and is put as a base of 5 for the car (can't be changed)

 

[OdeFinn]

How about that replica tuning by using "parts" from real life, organiser presents list of available parts what can be used, like range of toe available on front/rear, spring sets(maybe 3 to 5 different sets from different manufacturers or values, can be mixed front and rear, plus cutting spring available let say 15% out, but this have to adapt on ride height too), available ride height from each spring setup, available LSD ramps, possible few different gearbox, possible few different rears(final gear) and you'll see my point, list goes on and stays in real life values.
So then tuners just try to fix good packet from available parts and fine tune them with dampers/arb/toe/cutting spring.
Power parts locked to same for all, weight locked to same for all, ballast allowed only to rise above locked weight/balance.
@Ridox2JZGTE would you be interested presenting part list for some car?

 

[DolHaus]

How about that replica tuning by using "parts" from real life, organiser presents list of available parts what can be used, like range of toe available on front/rear, spring sets(maybe 3 to 5 different sets from different manufacturers or values, can be mixed front and rear, plus cutting spring available let say 15% out, but this have to adapt on ride height too), available ride height from each spring setup, available LSD ramps, possible few different gearbox, possible few different rears(final gear) and you'll see my point, list goes on and stays in real life values.
So then tuners just try to fix good packet from available parts and fine tune them with dampers/arb/toe/cutting spring.
Power parts locked to same for all, weight locked to same for all, ballast allowed only to rise above locked weight/balance.
@Ridox2JZGTE would you be interested presenting some part list for some car?

I briefly thought about this earlier, could be fun to have to use "off the shelf" parts and find the best combination. 👍

 

[CSLACR]

and long tracks tend to discourage testers due to time commitment.

I find it interesting, for 3 years now I hear things are too hard for testers when I suggest them.

If I recall we had about 8-10 testers for the Nurburgring shootout. Some of us just love the Nurburgring so much we don't care.
It is what it is. Proper testing isn't done on a 45 second lap, no matter the driver, and as lightheartedly amazing as it might be to be "done testing" 15 entries in 2 hours, it cannot be done correctly that quickly.

Totally agree the only way I could see this working is a DC/consistency challenge where fastest laps is ill relevant for the podium. It would be a requirement that the "stock" tune is only semi consistent and is put as a base of 5 for the car (can't be changed)

You could just "rank" them. Instead of xxx seconds, use 1st, 2nd, etc for each tester, then every driver has equal influence.
Of course it inevitably favors difficult to drive vehicles.

How about that replica tuning by using "parts" from real life, organiser presents list of available parts what can be used, like range of toe available on front/rear, spring sets(maybe 3 to 5 different sets from different manufacturers or values, can be mixed front and rear, plus cutting spring available let say 15% out, but this have to adapt on ride height too), available ride height from each spring setup, available LSD ramps, possible few different gearbox, possible few different rears(final gear) and you'll see my point, list goes on and stays in real life values.
So then tuners just try to fix good packet from available parts and fine tune them with dampers/arb/toe/cutting spring.
Power parts locked to same for all, weight locked to same for all, ballast allowed only to rise above locked weight/balance.
@Ridox2JZGTE would you be interested presenting part list for some car?

I like the idea, I'm just not sure how we can quantify it. How does my 2002 Honda Civic EX replica compete with your 2000 base model Corvette?

 

[Otaliema]

I find it interesting, for 3 years now I hear things are too hard for testers when I suggest them.

sirry to hear that. I would have said that no matter who suggested it. It has been mulled over in past events and shot down, for one reason or another. I can tell you I hate to love the ring. I would test an event there but if say we get the average 10 entries, that's. Going to be 100 laps with an average lap of 8 minutes for most people, estimated 13:20 track time.....
Wait that's the same as the current Monaco event.
It's the thought of the ring that could discourage testing.
Hmm maybe in a couple shoot outs hold a single car entry event there. And reference back to this current one.

You could just "rank" them. Instead of xxx seconds, use 1st, 2nd, etc for each tester, then every driver has equal influence.
Of course it inevitably favors difficult to drive vehicles.

Basically combine DC and lap time into a rank preference from each tester compared to untuned for the ranking? About what you are suggesting?

 

[CSLACR]

sirry to hear that. I would have said that no matter who suggested it. It has been mulled over in past events and shot down, for one reason or another. I can tell you I hate to love the ring. I would test an event there but if say we get the average 10 entries, that's. Going to be 100 laps with an average lap of 8 minutes for most people, estimated 13:20 track time.....
Wait that's the same as the current Monaco event.
It's the thought of the ring that could discourage testing.
Hmm maybe in a couple shoot outs hold a single car entry event there. And reference back to this current one.


Basically combine DC and lap time into a rank preference from each tester compared to untuned for the ranking? About what you are suggesting?

I already had the tester/Nurburgring discussion, and people sounded against it then, but that didn't stop the shootout from being a success. (albeit with a unique PD update bug on PP)
As long as the driving is fun, some people will find the time, from what I've experienced.


My suggestion is to use the rank number for scoring instead of the result. We normally use the result and ignore the rank.
1. 1:xx.xxx
2. 1:xx.xxx
3. 1:xx.xxx

 

[Otaliema]

I already had the tester/Nurburgring discussion, and people sounded against it then, but that didn't stop the shootout from being a success. (albeit with a unique PD update bug on PP)
As long as the driving is fun, some people will find the time, from what I've experienced.


My suggestion is to use the rank number for scoring instead of the result. We normally use the result and ignore the rank.
1. 1:xx.xxx
2. 1:xx.xxx
3. 1:xx.xxx

Yeah I think a Nur challenge is due for GT6. 👍

So I'm confused on the ranking over result podium sounds the same just different display format

 

[DolHaus]

GT6 hasn't had the same appeal as GT5 and as a result the hardcore testers who don't mind spending 10hrs pounding the Nurburgring are thin on the ground. Most of our testers have to fit it in around family and work/school and therefore can't commit to something that has such a potentially high demand on their limited free time.
I'd love for you to prove me wrong but making comparisons with yesteryear is like going into a petrol station, giving the attendant $20 and expecting to get a full tank and a coffee

 

[fordracer]

I wasn't trying to stir up anyrhing here. I hope you all realize that. Just thought it might be cool if there was a way we could tune/run our favorite cars in a little different competive/fun/intresting way.

 

[fordracer]

What about a tester shootout?



No, we beat the idea to death and just never do it!

MUST be a long track for this though. Nurburgring, Ascari, Spa, something long enough that testers can't be the deciding factor so easily.

Spa! Like running at that track!

 

[Otaliema]

Spa! Like running at that track!

Sarth with LMP cars 👍

 

[fordracer]

Sarth with LMP cars 👍

Sarth.....historic race cars on SH. 👍

 

[OdeFinn]

I like the idea, I'm just not sure how we can quantify it. How does my 2002 Honda Civic EX replica compete with your 2000 base model Corvette?

There will be no such choices, maybe only one car, or two car pack. Short compo, easy for testers and point counting easy, fastest is fastest, smoothest is smoothest(dc).

 

[Otaliema]

There will be no such choices, maybe only one car, or two car pack. Short compo, easy for testers and point counting easy, fastest is fastest, smoothest is smoothest(dc).

Historically the fastest car is also the highest DC in a FITT event on occasion the fastest podium will not match the DC podium (same tuners maybe not same order)
Speaking for GT6 events only I got into 5 too late to be part of FITT back then