For those that object to GTS or GT7 having Std Cars, what is your reason?

[Tornado]

Opinions.

What isn't opinion is that most of the huge list of cars that are perform incorrectly due to laziness in spec checking are Standards.

 

[TS050]

Can't recall, but don't the standard cars actually handle worse than their premium counterpart? I'll have to look into it because I can't remember where I read it.

What isn't opinion is that most of the huge list of cars that are perform incorrectly due to laziness in spec checking are Standards.

My bad, I didn't mean that Standards being worse to drive than their Premium counterparts was an opinion, I meant that saying most VGT's handle like crap was an opinion.

 

[Gazronicus]

Opinions.

That is my opinion. Have tuned the standards to my satisfaction and enjoyed it.Still detest the fantasy cars as most are irrevallent which is also my opinion

 

[TS050]

That is my opinion. Have tuned the standards to my satisfaction and enjoyed it.Still detest the fantasy cars as most are irrevallent which is also my opinion

Hey, I don't have a problem with you having opinions. You probably shouldn't present it as a fact, though.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Because they help what makes GT Car List different from other car lists. With the exception of Prosche's and certain Race Series cars most of the cars are shared across all the racing games, racing games tend to be lacking nowadays in original car roster. These cars that aren't featured in other racing games might not be so interesting to be put into every racing game, they are what GT has and in some cases (I did miss RUFs being in AC thanks to @Imari) it has them exclusively. Gives GT its own unique cars for its roster to try to stand out from the other car lists.

It wouldn't be hard to argue that GT's car list, standards or not, has already been surpassed by Forza, it's only real competitor in terms of size and scope. Going on premium content only I don't think there's much of a battle really, it's Forza hands down IMO.

I've referenced this before but it bears repeating. The GT6 Trophy Stats give you a good indication of how many cars are actually being used in the game. 70% of the player base uses less than 5% of the cars in the game. 80% don't get beyond 100 cars meaning, if every car was chosen equally, each car would only show up in less than 1/12 garages. Given the types of cars use in career mode, it's likely there are many, many standards that don't show up in 1/100 garages.

IMO the giant car list isn't nearly as popular as people think it is.

 

[Tornado]

Plus, whether GT is the only game series to feature certain cars or not, after a while you have to start questioning the value a game actually has added to it for being "The exclusive destination for people who want to drive 10 year old Opel sedans with slushboxes" or "The only place to drive Kei cars so old they have been virtually wiped off the road by Japanese emissions laws".

 

[Samus]

Plus, whether GT is the only game series to feature certain cars or not, after a while you have to start questioning the value a game actually has added to it for being "The exclusive destination for people who want to drive 10 year old Opel sedans with slushboxes" or "The only place to drive Kei cars so old they have been virtually wiped off the road by Japanese emissions laws".

Exactly. At this point only the number itself is a selling point, not what those numbers actually represent.

 

[breyzipp]

It wouldn't be hard to argue that GT's car list, standards or not, has already been surpassed by Forza, it's only real competitor in terms of size and scope. Going on premium content only I don't think there's much of a battle really, it's Forza hands down IMO.

I've referenced this before but it bears repeating. The GT6 Trophy Stats give you a good indication of how many cars are actually being used in the game. 70% of the player base uses less than 5% of the cars in the game. 80% don't get beyond 100 cars meaning, if every car was chosen equally, each car would only show up in less than 1/12 garages. Given the types of cars use in career mode, it's likely there are many, many standards that don't show up in 1/100 garages.

IMO the giant car list isn't nearly as popular as people think it is.

Indeed like I already posted earlier in this thread, GT has already lost the quantity race to Forza. FM6 has nearly 600 high quality cars now and they don't include cheap crap copies like that Nissan GT-R blanket car etc. Those in FM6 are real and unique cars. They even dropped the 2012 Tesla Model S from FM5 for the newer 2015 Tesla Model S P89D (which had AWD and a stronger engine). If this was PD you could be sure both Teslas were in. Turn 10 isn't that lame (they are lame in many other areas though).

And if those ugly PS2 models without interiors make it to the PS4 I'm going to laugh so hard. Hey maybe we can add the Ferrari from OutRun to it as well!!! Lol.

Seriously, dropping all the crappy models and 1K+ cars also gives the devs the opportunity to revamp the handling model completely and do engine/tire sound properly. Those things just go better in a game with 50 cars instead of 1200 cars.

I want to be blown away and feel the immersion from GT Sport! I want it to completely destroy all the competition! But copying PS2 cars is not the way to do that...

 

[Tornado]

They even dropped the 2012 Tesla Model S from FM5 for the newer 2015 Tesla Model S P89D (which had AWD and a stronger engine). If this was PD you could be sure both Teslas were in. Turn 10 isn't that lame (they are lame in many other areas though).

So you mean they dropped a unique car that was actually unique in favor of a newer version instead of keeping both (again, unique) cars?


"Duplicate" cars aren't a problem when the cars being included are cars that are actually different from each other in real life and those differences are modelled properly; because then they aren't actually duplicates. Duplicate cars are a problem when they exist to pad the car count. Purple Skylines and made up Miatas and copy-pasted Lexus models and changing the date on the car name string.

 

[ImaRobot]

Indeed like I already posted earlier in this thread, GT has already lost the quantity race to Forza. FM6 has nearly 600 high quality cars now and they don't include cheap crap copies like that Nissan GT-R blanket car etc. Those in FM6 are real and unique cars. They even dropped the 2012 Tesla Model S from FM5 for the newer 2015 Tesla Model S P89D (which had AWD and a stronger engine). If this was PD you could be sure both Teslas were in. Turn 10 isn't that lame (they are lame in many other areas though).

There is actually two problems within it though. One is the fact that they choose to always go after the most high end version of every vehicle(almost), I wouldn't mind if every once in a while they'd offer the lower trimmed vehicle. The other is what @Tornado touched up on, there was no need to remove the older one because they decided to put the new and improved, higher tier, into the game. I sure do miss the Boss 302.

 

[Lucas]

You might want to remove the RUFs from your list. Assetto Corsa has them.

That's hot.

The one time I tried Assetto Corsa (with a joystick, sadly), it felt amazing compared to Gran Turismo. The sound, the physics, the actual feel of being inside a car instead of feeling like I have an overlay instead.

 

[breyzipp]

So you mean they dropped a unique car that was actually unique in favor of a newer version instead of keeping both (again, unique) cars?

They usually keep just 1 car of the same platform at the initial release of a new title. For example Forza 5 at EOL had the 2012 Dodge Challenger SRT8 392 and the 2012 Dodge Charger SRT8. Forza 6 was released with the 2015 Dodge Challenger SRT Hellcat (the 2012 SRT8 was left out because its on the same platform and the Hellcat is considered the newer version) but the same old 2012 Dodge Charger SRT8 was still in because they didn't have the Hellcat yet. Now recently we got the 2015 Dodge Charger SRT Hellcat in a DLC pack so you can be very sure that for Forza 7 it will be the 2015 Charger Hellcat that is in and the 2012 Charger SRT8 will be dropped.

So I agree the SRT8's and the Hellcats are not the same car but since the platform is the same and we already have near 600 cars I can fully understand why they make a choice to drop one of them. However, I do agree with ImaRobot that most of the time they keep the most high-end version. I'm biased on that myself, part of me wants all the base versions since upgraded versions are supposed to be what we create with the upgrade system in the game right? Wouldn't it be cool if the Hellcat was an "upgrade kit" for the STR8 that costed a certain amount of PI? Kinda like the race upgrades in GT5 but then not as drastic as going from road car to race car as it was there. But part of me also loves to have the EOL versions of series of cars in the game, sometimes those are the most iconic versions of discontinued models.

Another example, if you look at BMW M3's, this is what is in Forza 6 :
1991 BMW M3 (E30)
1997 BMW M3 (E36)
2005 BMW M3 (E46)
2008 BMW M3 (E92)
2009 BMW #92 Rahal Letterman Racing M3 E92 GT2

BMW M3 wikipedia page :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M3

As you can see every generation of M3 is in Forza 6. This is honestly enough for me, I don't think we need like 10+ BMW M3s where facelifts or upgraded versions are all added. For example if you only look at the E36 platform, according to Wikipedia there is already a handful of different versions on that platform :
M3 Euro-Spec (Canadian Edition)
M3 Lightweight
M3 GT
M3 Evolution Imola Individual (M3 GT2)
M3-R
M3 GTR
M3 compact

Surely we don't want all that in the game, the cars are too similar even though some do have significant differences. I fully agree with only having ONE M3 (E36) car in the game and have developer resources spent on other cars, especially cars you don't see in other games yet and feel really unique. I have the highest respect for the Assetto Corsa development team but let's face it, most of those cars from their game can already be driven in other games. But of course, there are always some "must have" cars too, can you imagine a circuit racing game without a Ferrari 458 or 488? (licencing issues aside)

Of course for the E92, we have both the road version as the GT2 race version since even though that is the same platform, a race car and road car shouldn't be seen as being similar.

 

[ImaRobot]

So I agree the SRT8's and the Hellcats are not the same car but since the platform is the same and we already have near 600 cars I can fully understand why they make a choice to drop one of them.

But this is where things start conflicting. They took out a completely different Challanger because we got a different more recent version, yet there's about 3-4 different Raptors in the game. The way they are doing it is not consistent at all.

However, I do agree with ImaRobot that most of the time they keep the most high-end version. I'm biased on that myself, part of me wants all the base versions since upgraded versions are supposed to be what we create with the upgrade system in the game right?

That would depend on if the trim you're trying to replicate is faster or slower than the platform you're using.

Wouldn't it be cool if the Hellcat was an "upgrade kit" for the STR8 that costed a certain amount of PI? Kinda like the race upgrades in GT5 but then not as drastic as going from road car to race car as it was there. But part of me also loves to have the EOL versions of series of cars in the game, sometimes those are the most iconic versions of discontinued models.

Well one way outside of that, that would give you more freedom with the parts involved would be to offer the visual aesthetics that come with the different trim as selectable body kits in the game, as well as offering the engine swap. They could do this for a variety of cars(I'm looking at you RX-7 Spirit A!) It not only would alleviate duplicates in the game, but would offer so much more for customization and individualism.

 

[Tornado]

They usually keep just 1 car of the same platform at the initial release of a new title. For example Forza 5 at EOL had the 2012 Dodge Challenger SRT8 392 and the 2012 Dodge Charger SRT8. Forza 6 was released with the 2015 Dodge Challenger SRT Hellcat (the 2012 SRT8 was left out because its on the same platform and the Hellcat is considered the newer version) but the same old 2012 Dodge Charger SRT8 was still in because they didn't have the Hellcat yet. Now recently we got the 2015 Dodge Charger SRT Hellcat in a DLC pack so you can be very sure that for Forza 7 it will be the 2015 Charger Hellcat that is in and the 2012 Charger SRT8 will be dropped.

Which is pretty damn stupid.

Surely we don't want all that in the game, the cars are too similar even though some do have significant differences

Speak for yourself. So long as the cars are actually different and those differences are modeled, as many cars they can add to the game, the better the game. Yes, PD does some truly stupid stuff to pretend that they have 1200 cars in the game. Garbage like this:

That's a problem, and when PD is that lazy we lose nothing if all but the first car is removed.


But if what you're saying is true, that Turn 10 actually model different versions of the cars and then deliberately dropped all but the very highest performing one the next time a game comes around, that's just as idiotic. I don't care whether two cars are on the same platform or not when one of them has 250 more horsepower than the older one that was also in previous game. And to what end? Because Turn 10 is overreacting to a problem PD hasn't cared to fix for a decade now?

 

[7HO]

That's hot.

The one time I tried Assetto Corsa (with a joystick, sadly), it felt amazing compared to Gran Turismo. The sound, the physics, the actual feel of being inside a car instead of feeling like I have an overlay instead.

You should get out of the house more often. The last time I tried Assetto Corsa (I own it) I was disappointed compared to how good some other sims have got. The sims out there right now are so amazing and they are just getting better. I remember a time when I thought iRacing's thing was good online racing but it was lacking in other areas, now I'm blown away just hotlapping in it and I can't wait for it to get Imola. I'm also looking forward to see how good Automobilista is when it is finished.

BTW you must try Assetto Corsa with a wheel if you want to be really impressed, AC is one of the best when it comes to FFB on commercial wheels.

 

[glassjaw]

So long as the cars are actually different and those differences are modeled, as many cars they can add to the game, the better the game. Yes, PD does some truly stupid stuff to pretend that they have 1200 cars in the game.

Was there even a GS300 Vertex Edition? Vertex is Japan only, right? I love the idea of PD inventing trim levels that don't exist for cars in certain territories. They always say they're just that painstakingly devoted to little details, that the differences between a V-Spec and M-spec R34 are significant enough to include both...but apparently they're not so invested in accuracy to avoid creating entirely fictional configurations and passing them off as real. In that case, quantity evidently trumps quality on the priority list.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I actually agree with the logic of you can easily ignore standards. I hear the counter logic of the hair and the soup but they aren't comparable. Also a piece of hair doesn't mean no Soup, you tarnish it and say the whole soup? Sorry but that doesn't make sense to me, if I see hair in soup, I still enjoy the soup but pull out the hair and ignore it.

Then it appears, fittingly enough given the subject of the thread, you simply have lower standards than other players and/or soup eaters.

I'll admit a lot of other standards are unnecessary (clones in particular). I wouldn't want to punt ALL of the Standard but maybe just throw out the unnecessary standards that only purpose is to fill up the Car Count.

Vaguely-worded statements like this don't solve anything, though: who decides what's deemed unnecessary?

It's been mentioned before, but arguably the most suitable approach is for PD to look at usage stats. It won't represent everyone: there's those that play offline, and the hardcore players that amass multiple times the mileage of the casuals could tip any particular model's popularity in their favour, but it'd at least represent the masses at some level. If only a certain number of Standards can be replaced with Premium counterparts, find the cars that top the usage list, and focus on them. Trim the fat with regards to the others.

We lost a lot of unique cars in the jump from GT2 to GT3, but at least the latter presented itself with nothing but the best-quality content at launch.

It wouldn't be hard to argue that GT's car list, standards or not, has already been surpassed by Forza, it's only real competitor in terms of size and scope. Going on premium content only I don't think there's much of a battle really, it's Forza hands down IMO.

I wouldn't suggest that that's the main reason PD is refocusing on eSports with GT Sport... but it certainly could be one of the reasons, right? Without also resorting to outsourcing, it seems unlikely they could ever match the count of the Forza titles this generation.

It'd be a little ironic to now start crowing about the benefits of quality versus quantity, though. But I really do hope GTS launches without any PS2 carryover content. The game needs to be seen as an example of what the current system is capable of.

IMO the giant car list isn't nearly as popular as people think it is.

It's hard to tell. The friends that like cars and gaming all know of GT – and it's gratuitous number-padding – so it's difficult to get a first-hand idea of how impressive the car list is, and especially when mentioning 2/3 are ported over from the early 2000's.

What sort of makes it clear is opening up the NA Miata pages of the Mazda dealership.

But if what you're saying is true, that Turn 10 actually model different versions of the cars and then deliberately dropped all but the very highest performing one the next time a game comes around, that's just as idiotic. I don't care whether two cars are on the same platform or not when one of them has 250 more horsepower than the older one that was also in previous game. And to what end? Because Turn 10 is overreacting to a problem PD hasn't cared to fix for a decade now?

Yep. It's a little stupid. It does seem like a reaction to the criticism lobbied PD's way, absolutely, but it goes so far the other way that it ends up being a problem of its own. They've had a few exceptions – they actually kept the bog-standard Ferrari 458 with the Speciale, and the Mustang GT alongside the GT350R – but dropping things like the Challenger, or the C7 Stingray, or the (admittedly unloved) California for the new turbo model seems silly, especially with the work completed on them. It's a fairly common complaint over in the official forums.

Of course, judging by the amount of social media whining when each car pack fails to be the exclusive domain of 2015 hypercars (or the S14), maybe T10 is simply responding to the vocal side of their playerbase? The ones that have no appreciation for the breadth and history of a nameplate?

 

[7HO]

The game needs to be seen as an example of what the current system is capable of.

This so much!

Some of the cars I really like are standard cars and some of the more interesting cars are standard cars and no standards could mean no Aussie cars and I would still rather see no standard cars.

What I'd rather see is everything about this game be premium. Premium modelling, premium tracks, premium features and since it is an experiment and they can always fall back on GT7 if it doesn't work out I'd love to see the iRacing model, no purchase price just a subscription that pays for the continued development of the game. I wouldn't even mind if like iRacing they also charged extra for future additional content but if they really wanted to set themselves apart where GT Sport could become something new and better would be to just have it as a all inclusive subscription game with all content included and a subscription price that covered ongoing development with continued new content and features being added. Even though iRacing's model is perfectly logical I think this is the mistake iRacing made that they are now locked into and an all inclusive sub I think is the better model.

On the premium content. The PS4 is already a very capable piece of hardware and easily capable of running a sim now that could compete with anything on PC. The 4.5 will take this even further allowing for higher resolution with more eye candy. So I absolutely think the physics should be premium first and foremost and after that premium features and then process the graphics with whatever is left. Even the PS4 is up to the task to produce an incredible sim if they want to.

Then if they do keep it premium they do not need to start off with a massive amount of content, they just need to start with something that makes people go "wow this is awesome, give me more". Then whatever model they choose, sub or initial purchase plus future purchase for additional content they can start off with something with less cars and focus on adding more as the money comes in and the money will come in.

Again I know there will be people who will complain if they did such a thing and I imagine some would even say they will never get it but just imagine if GTS had physics on par with the best with graphics on par with the best and the best features from every sim and just kept adding more as time went on, who wouldn't get it? It would probably be the only sim I played.

I know people are coming into this with the preconcieved idea of what we have seen in the past from GT and I know it is hard not to. But GTS is said to be a fully featured title in the GT series that is a new direction from the existing series so to me I can't help but dream that GT becomes my dream sim even if PD have given me no reason to believe they are capable or willing to produce such a sim.

 

[Johnnypenso]

.... if it doesn't work out I'd love to see the iRacing model, no purchase price just a subscription that pays for the continued development of the game. I wouldn't even mind if like iRacing they also charged extra for future additional content but if they really wanted to set themselves apart where GT Sport could become something new and better would be to just have it as a all inclusive subscription game with all content included and a subscription price that covered ongoing development with continued new content and features being added. Even though iRacing's model is perfectly logical I think this is the mistake iRacing made that they are now locked into and an all inclusive sub I think is the better model.

You might need this

 

[breyzipp]

A big problem with Turn 10 and the growing amount of cars is also that everything (cars, tunes, paint) is stored in the cloud and that storage space is limited. Currently FM6 has 573 different car models, the garage limit is 600 (it doesn't have the fancy stockyard from GT6) but tunes and paints is limited to 500. it completely sucks and I'm sure this is also one of the reasons they don't want to keep too many car models that are too similar.

I personally still have big problems with the word "limit" and "next gen console" in the same phrase...

 

[Castrol96]

I hope kaz Improves each and every standard car to a semi-premium level for GT7 rather than a low res/poly stockpile.

 

[Samus]

I hope kaz Improves each and every standard car to a semi-premium level for GT7 rather than a low res/poly stockpile.

Not going to happen, it's a huge waste of resources. Thankfully it also doesn't need to happen.

 

[TokoTurismo]

I rather have new cars than have outdated cars that are currently standard to be upgraded to premium, thank you very much.

 

[jubeiiiii246]

I rather just transport all the cars from gt6 to gts don't judge me I like the raybrig NSX from 2000 to me it's fine.
I want Kaz to take out the nice standard cars like the Castrol nsx or the Castrol Supra or the Toyota gt0ne so I would not risk it and take out almost a thosand cars.
I meant to NOT to take out the cats I said

Cars*

 

[SlipZtrEm]

@jubeiiiii246 - There's an Edit button. Please use it instead of quadruple-posting.

 

[T_Exige]

In my opinion, all the cars need to have the same quality.
They just need to filter out the classic ones and remake them: Supra RZ, R390, Cerbera, etc.
A mix of new/old 600 cars would be great.

 

[spikyone]

Was there even a GS300 Vertex Edition? Vertex is Japan only, right? I love the idea of PD inventing trim levels that don't exist for cars in certain territories. They always say they're just that painstakingly devoted to little details, that the differences between a V-Spec and M-spec R34 are significant enough to include both...but apparently they're not so invested in accuracy to avoid creating entirely fictional configurations and passing them off as real. In that case, quantity evidently trumps quality on the priority list.

You're right, it's clearly a case of big numbers = good, and PD are deeply misguided in that. To the point I've bolded in your post, GT6 has eleven minor variations of R34 GT-R that are within 8PP of each other:

Nissan Skyline GT-R (R34) '00 471PP
Nissan Skyline GT-R (R34) '99 468PP
Nissan Skyline GT-R M-Spec (R34) '01 467PP
Nissan Skyline GT-R M-Spec Nur (R34) '01 475PP
Nissan Skyline GT-R (R34) MNP II '99 467PP
Nissan Skyline GT-R (R34) MNP III '00 467PP
Nissan Skyline GT-R V-Spec (R34) '99 468PP
Nissan Skyline GT-R V-Spec II (R34) '00 468PP
Nissan Skyline GT-R V-Spec II N1 (R34) '00 467PP
Nissan Skyline GT-R V-Spec II Nur (R34) '02 472PP
Nissan Skyline GT-R V-Spec N1 (R34) '99 467PP

99.9% of players simply do not care which of those they're using, because they're all basically the same. Keep the '02 car, which is the only premium one, and ditch the rest. No-one will notice, and you will have got rid of ten pointless standard cars.
And while you're at it PD, please make the "Base Model" option for race cars (and livery variations like SuperGT, NASCAR etc) just the same as picking a colour for road cars. They are not different cars!

 

[Lucas]

You're right, it's clearly a case of big numbers = good, and PD are deeply misguided in that. To the point I've bolded in your post, GT6 has eleven minor variations of R34 GT-R that are within 8PP of each other:

Nissan Skyline GT-R (R34) '00 471PP
Nissan Skyline GT-R (R34) '99 468PP
Nissan Skyline GT-R M-Spec (R34) '01 467PP
Nissan Skyline GT-R M-Spec Nur (R34) '01 475PP
Nissan Skyline GT-R (R34) MNP II '99 467PP
Nissan Skyline GT-R (R34) MNP III '00 467PP
Nissan Skyline GT-R V-Spec (R34) '99 468PP
Nissan Skyline GT-R V-Spec II (R34) '00 468PP
Nissan Skyline GT-R V-Spec II N1 (R34) '00 467PP
Nissan Skyline GT-R V-Spec II Nur (R34) '02 472PP
Nissan Skyline GT-R V-Spec N1 (R34) '99 467PP

99.9% of players simply do not care which of those they're using, because they're all basically the same. Keep the '02 car, which is the only premium one, and ditch the rest. No-one will notice, and you will have got rid of ten pointless standard cars.

This is my opinion, but these are the only ones I would keep. Base model, top of the line, top of the line N1, and top of the line Nür. Of course, all of them should be Premium.

 

[spikyone]

This is my opinion, but these are the only ones I would keep. Base model, top of the line, top of the line N1, and top of the line Nür. Of course, all of them should be Premium.

Each to their own, but given how similar those cars are I just don't see the point. You'd set an almost identical lap time in any of them.

There are so many cars that PD could model instead - for example, the GT3 category has been thriving in recent years. We have some of those cars already, but how about completing the GT3 line-up (except Porsche, which is unlikely to happen) with GT3 versions of the Gallardo/Huracan, 458/488, Aston DBRS9, and Bentley Continental? To me, that would be a far better use of PD's time than working out the minute trim difference between the V-Spec II and V-Spec II Nur.

 

[Lucas]

Each to their own, but given how similar those cars are I just don't see the point. You'd set an almost identical lap time in any of them.

I know, it's just that some times it feels cool to say "I'm driving the latest Skyline ever made" or "I'm driving the homologation version" or "I'm driving the first R34 ever made".

But I can't see anyone but an owner of an M-Spec say something like "I'm driving a Skyline with heated seats!".