Formula 1 Aramco Magyar Nagydíj 2020Formula 1

[LeftoverPizza]

F1 these days is as exciting as watching paint dry. The best battles are in the midfield. Curious to see what will happen with the races when the budget ceiling hits.
I've written off this season to become an exciting one for the WDC and WCC. With 2 of the 3 top teams lacking severely, there is nothing to look out for. Merc domination at its best, but it ruins the already boring races even more. Sad, though.

 

[Betty blue]

Technically speaking: I think the high rake philosophy and shorter wheelbase concept has been milked out to the maximum. Improvement in lap times in the upcoming races would be minimum and largely due to the engine improvements. It appears that Mercedes's low rake and longer wheelbase has more scope of development. I'm certainly surprised why other teams didn't pursue such concept at all.

 

[PeterJB]

Technically speaking: I think the high rake philosophy and shorter wheelbase concept has been milked out to the maximum. Improvement in lap times in the upcoming races would be minimum and largely due to the engine improvements. It appears that Mercedes's low rake and longer wheelbase has more scope of development. I'm certainly surprised why other teams didn't pursue such concept at all.

It would be interesting to see if they were any faster if they threw a 1980s Honda turbo in the back of the Mercedes.

 

[andrea]

Horner being Horner lmao

 

[Jimlaad43]

It would be interesting to see if they were any faster if they threw a 1980s Honda turbo in the back of the Mercedes.

No. These are the fastest, smoothest, most fuel efficient and best accelerating engines we've ever seen in F1 with the Hybrids. Weight is about the only thing holding them back. The 80's engines are too raw to hold a candle to the new ones. The early-2000s V10s are probably the only ones close.

 

[PeterJB]

No. These are the fastest, smoothest, most fuel efficient and best accelerating engines we've ever seen in F1 with the Hybrids. Weight is about the only thing holding them back. The 80's engines are too raw to hold a candle to the new ones. The early-2000s V10s are probably the only ones close.

The sound of the V10s alone is more than enough for this experiment to go ahead.

 

[EngieDiesel]

This is concerning. Perez said he was feeling dizzy during his qualifying run. Hopefully it's not anything serious, the minor scare with Norris' chest pains last week was quite enough medical-related drama for this year, thank you.

 

[-Fred-]

It's not Mercedes' fault if the other teams are incapable, and it's certainly not the regulation's fault. They've built a structured team behind the pitwall and created a stable work environment, have a fast and reliable car and arguably had the best driver pairings in the last 10 years, and they've been reaping what they sowed ever since. Ferrari and RedBull have done the equivalent of throwing **** at a wall and seeing what sticks. Multiple management changes, lashing out at engine suppliers, toxic work relations, engineering failures, playing musical chair with your drivers... it all adds up. When you have drivers like Alonso, Raikkonnen and Vettel in succession, the biggest budget in the field and receive more money from the FIA than Williams' entire budget just by showing up, and yet can't mount a proper attack for a world championship... I think it says a lot about work ethic. Last year's Mercedes is still faster everyone else... Stop making excuses and deliver.

 

[Frank McGank]

No. These are the fastest, smoothest, most fuel efficient and best accelerating engines we've ever seen in F1 with the Hybrids. Weight is about the only thing holding them back. The 80's engines are too raw to hold a candle to the new ones. The early-2000s V10s are probably the only ones close.

The 1985-1986 season cars in qualifying trim made 1200-1300bhp. The most powerful car on the grid today is just tickling 1000, and about 200 of that is the hybrid system on full song. In normal race trim it’s probably closer to 850-900, which is a little less than what the V10s were putting down at the end of their reign.
The biggest stumbling block with that little hypothetical is those 80s turbos could only make that much power for 1-2 laps before essentially turning themselves into scrap metal. It wasn’t uncommon for an engine to eat itself alive during a qualy lap, and for drivers to end up with 200 less horsepower by the end of the lap than what they started with just because of things like the turbo and pistons falling apart. Of course, with modern technology and materials and engineering techniques, the likes of Mercedes Honda Renault and Ferrari could easily build an unrestricted 1.5L turbo engine with 1200+ horsepower that could go full race distance. Hell, they could probably make a 3.5L atmos engine that could do that, V10/V12 or otherwise. It’s just a matter of regulations and fuel allowances. Engine designers haven’t been allowed to go balls-out for decades.

 

[Dotini]

I am utterly concerned about the future of this sport if the Mercedes domination keeps going for 3-4 more years...

Every time Mercedes dominates, something bad happens. In '39 it was WWII, in '55 it was LeMans. I am asking them to voluntarily step down as entrants, but remain as engine suppliers for 3 years (only).

 

[Frank McGank]

Every time Mercedes dominates, something bad happens. In '39 it was WWII, in '55 it was LeMans. I am asking them to voluntarily step down as entrants, but remain as engine suppliers for 3 years (only).

I’d like if all of them sans Ferrari stepped down and regulations were put in place to entice smaller engine shops back in to replace them. So the grid would be powered by the likes of Cosworth, Judd, Gibson, Ilmor (who build Merc’s engine anyway) and Mechachrome (who build Renault’s engine anyway). As it should be.

 

[EngieDiesel]

Multiple management changes, lashing out at engine suppliers, toxic work relations, engineering failures, playing musical chair with your drivers... it all adds up.

This brings up something else that I had been thinking of recently. We rarely hear about what's happening with a team's technical staff, except when a top man like Paddy Lowe or Toto Wolff is involved. It's not easy to build a winning team if your guys in fabrication, R&D or wherever else in the shop back home are updating their resumes every 3 months because they're either not happy with the situation they're in or expecting someone else to throw a bag of money at them in an attempt to plug the holes in their own operations.

And given that the skillsets for developing a Formula 1 car are pretty darn specialized, I imagine it's much easier to grab someone else's staff than it is to find someone new who will get up to speed quickly. That kind of turbulence can keep a team held down for quite a while on its own, regardless of how good their driver or engine supplier is.

 

[evldave333]

The Ferrari era was nowhere near as frustrating as Merc because they were actually challenged for titles by Williams and others on some occasions, Mercedes on the other has only been challenged by ONE other team...


ONE.

When the only serious title fight is between the team itself its not fun honestly.

So why do you watch it then are you some kind of masochist? Change channel its easy ;-)

Im savouring every moment of the Mercedes era.

 

[Jimlaad43]

The 1985-1986 season cars in qualifying trim made 1200-1300bhp. The most powerful car on the grid today is just tickling 1000, and about 200 of that is the hybrid system on full song. In normal race trim it’s probably closer to 850-900, which is a little less than what the V10s were putting down at the end of their reign.
The biggest stumbling block with that little hypothetical is those 80s turbos could only make that much power for 1-2 laps before essentially turning themselves into scrap metal. It wasn’t uncommon for an engine to eat itself alive during a qualy lap, and for drivers to end up with 200 less horsepower by the end of the lap than what they started with just because of things like the turbo and pistons falling apart. Of course, with modern technology and materials and engineering techniques, the likes of Mercedes Honda Renault and Ferrari could easily build an unrestricted 1.5L turbo engine with 1200+ horsepower that could go full race distance. Hell, they could probably make a 3.5L atmos engine that could do that, V10/V12 or otherwise. It’s just a matter of regulations and fuel allowances. Engine designers haven’t been allowed to go balls-out for decades.

Outright and peak power is not the be-all-and-end-all of engines. Power delivery, smoothness, fuel economy and driveability all contribute to making a good engine. Yes, a 1200 bhp turbo engine might have better peak power, but think about everything else. Gear Changes are the first thing. Seamless Shift pretty much straight away removes the advantage the turbos had before anyway. But the main thing the turbos hate is lag. Lap time down straights comes from acceleration, not top speed. When KERS was a thing, drivers used all their boost as soon as they had enough traction in the rear tyres to deal with the extra power, rather than the Fast & Furious method of pressing it when near top speed. Yes, hitting 320kph might be cool, but hitting 300kph 200m earlier and keeping that advantage all down the straight is far better for laptime. The Hybrid engines give you that Electric boost at the exit of the corner, rather than having to wait half a second for an inconsistent spool of the turbo. It's the same reason Tesla's can outperform Muscle Cars in a straight line - electric power delivery is so much better for acceleration. As this is Circuit Racing rather than Oval Racing, Acceleration is much more desired than Top Speed.

Remember that 1200hp is the peak power. The rest of the rev range is going to be much smaller, and it has no electric motors to fill in the gaps that the engine and turbo can't deal with.

As stated before, the only thing the old 80's Turbos have over the modern power units is weight. They are a helluva lot lighter, and that's going to be the only aspect that has a chance of reducing the gap between their performance.

 

[edgematic]

maximum trolling

https://www.racefans.net/2020/07/18...-with-small-budgets-can-be-competitive-wolff/

“I am happy for Racing Point because we were hearing in the past years always that the smaller teams on the smaller budgets were not able to compete at the at the front,” said Wolff. “And here we go, somebody with a vision and with an idea of where to prioritise has managed to really make the jump from the midfield into the top teams.

“The Racing Point is a podium contender, if not a race-winning contender going forward. And it proves that with the right leadership, the right decision making process and the right funding, you can actually accelerate your development curve. So [there’s] lessons to be learned and I’m happy to see them there.”

 

[EngieDiesel]

maximum trolling

https://www.racefans.net/2020/07/18...-with-small-budgets-can-be-competitive-wolff/

In other news, the International Space Station reports that the queue of people waiting to throw that back in Toto's face if Racing Point blows it tomorrow is now visible from orbit.

Disclaimer: I have no ill will towards Mercedes or Racing Point

 

[McLaren]

The Ferrari era was nowhere near as frustrating as Merc because they were actually challenged for titles by Williams and others on some occasions, Mercedes on the other has only been challenged by ONE other team...
ONE.
When the only serious title fight is between the team itself its not fun honestly.

According to stats, from 1999 to 2004, Ferrari's margin of victory was 3% over McLaren-Merc., 11% over McLaren-Merc., 43% over McLaren-Merc., 58% over Williams, 9% over Williams, 55% over BAR-Honda. That's 3 out of 6 dominating years Ferrari recorded a higher margin of victory than which Mercedes has yet to accomplish. Out of Mercedes' 6 years, only its first 3 titles were close to 40% dominating margins.

Looking at Ferrari's titles, 2003 was the only year multiple teams challenged Ferrari (Ferrari-158, Williams-144, McLaren-142). Other than that, every year McLaren-Mercedes was the one team to challenge them. Ferrari held a gigantic margin in points over the 3rd place teams.

 

[-Fred-]

The Ferrari era was nowhere near as frustrating

Rubens Barrichello disagrees with you.




It's one thing to "Valterri, it's James..." at the penultimate round when Bottas is clearly not in the championship race anymore, but it's downright insulting to do so in the 6th race of the season like they used to do in the Ferrari era. Politics ensured Schumacher won most of the time, and politics don't belong on the racetrack.

 

[GroupB]

There are so many recaps of Barichello’s career where they sum up it up as “Michael Schumacher’s stooge.”
At least with Valtteri, you always believe he has a chance if he can just put in the drive. With Rubens, you knew he was never going to be allowed to succeed.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Hamilton's lap was over a second faster than Verstappen's last year, and NINE SECONDS faster than Rosberg's in 2014. And just for fun, thirteen seconds faster than HRT in 2010.

The cars are getting too fast. The new regulations can't come soon enough.

 

[mustafur]

It would be more interesting if they put better drivers in the Mercedes to challenge Hamilton, Bottas the guy that could barely beat post head injury Massa(which sounds harsh but Massa lost his peak speed after that) isn't good enough, I have no doubt if they put someone like George Russell in that seat there would be fireworks.

Overall I'm sure the British Hamilton fans a lapping this up but as a form of entertainment it's not really entertaining.

 

[BrainsBush]

(rainy) Race day! Well that makes the outcome more unpredictable. Although Lewis is also a rain master. Hopefully we will some good battles at the front. Midfield is already guaranteed. Enjoy the race!!!

 

[LeGeNd-1]

People say Mercs are dominating, but I see the time difference from 1st to 20th are only around 3 seconds. Just a few years ago where we had Caterham/Marussia/HRT it was probably more like 5-6 seconds. Back in the 80s-90s "glory days" that F1 fan love so much it was up to 10 seconds. Going even older, in the 50s-60s the difference between pole and backmarker was probably measured in days

People only see Merc curbstomping over everyone else, but what they don't see is every other team on the grid also trying their hardest. They're not slow by any means. Hundreds of people working over a year in separate environments, building 10 completely different cars, driven by 20 different people and over a 3-4 mile lap they are all within 2-3 seconds is something remarkable. Even Alfa/Haas now at the level they operate will obliterate ANY F1 car from 2016 backwards.

Mercedes' domination should be celebrated. It's an anomaly against probabilistic rules. To keep improving upon perfection, year after year. To keep being ahead of world class competitors despite having a target on your back for 6 years. It's incredible. I'm still hoping they have a season where they win every single race, just to leave that mark in history forever. This is a team with the right attitude and the right people working together in harmony. Why shouldn't they keep winning? The onus is on the other teams to catch up.

If you want to watch motorsport with lead changes every lap, there's Indy/NASCAR/Rallycross. F1 has always been about pushing technology, and the team that does the best job wins. Even just watching one F1 car going round a track is already amazing for me. The racing is just a bonus

 

[evldave333]

People say Mercs are dominating, but I see the time difference from 1st to 20th are only around 3 seconds. Just a few years ago where we had Caterham/Marussia/HRT it was probably more like 5-6 seconds. Back in the 80s-90s "glory days" that F1 fan love so much it was up to 10 seconds. Going even older, in the 50s-60s the difference between pole and backmarker was probably measured in days

People only see Merc curbstomping over everyone else, but what they don't see is every other team on the grid also trying their hardest. They're not slow by any means. Hundreds of people working over a year in separate environments, building 10 completely different cars, driven by 20 different people and over a 3-4 mile lap they are all within 2-3 seconds is something remarkable. Even Alfa/Haas now at the level they operate will obliterate ANY F1 car from 2016 backwards.

Mercedes' domination should be celebrated. It's an anomaly against probabilistic rules. To keep improving upon perfection, year after year. To keep being ahead of world class competitors despite having a target on your back for 6 years. It's incredible. I'm still hoping they have a season where they win every single race, just to leave that mark in history forever. This is a team with the right attitude and the right people working together in harmony. Why shouldn't they keep winning? The onus is on the other teams to catch up.

If you want to watch motorsport with lead changes every lap, there's Indy/NASCAR/Rallycross. F1 has always been about pushing technology, and the team that does the best job wins. Even just watching one F1 car going round a track is already amazing for me. The racing is just a bonus

I agree we're seeing across the board at Mercedes a synergy that may never be seen again at this level in motorsport. The psychology seems to be what differentiates them the most, less ego than most teams. This may become a template that is used for successful management in all kinds of disciplines. History is unfurling before our eyes you dont have to be a fan of the drivers or team, but they deserve respect. Enjoy your motorsport while it lasts as this is the end of the petroleum era, there are dramatic changes coming...

 

[numbnuts70]

Meanwwhile back on the track, its looking damp.

 

[andrea]

Meanwwhile back on the track, its looking damp.

 

[numbnuts70]

Yep, that's damp for Wales.

 

[evldave333]

I do enjoy some dynamic track conditions always makes for a more interesting race

 

[Frank McGank]

Deleted, double post

 

[Jimlaad43]

Do we have a thread we can dump all this waste of keystrokes Halo discussion into, because it is nothing to do with the Hungarian Grand Prix.



It looks like a thunderstorm has hit, dropped a load of rain on the track and then cleared into light rain. So the track is wet, but hopefully not too wet so we can just start the race as normal.