Forza 4 Nordschleife

[UKMikey]

Poor Sele... I just read a post where he was defending FM in the GT section. That's not what I'd call an FM4 hater. Guess you can't win sometimes, LOL.

Obligatory on-topic... An inaccurate Nordschliefe isn't a game breaker for me. Truth to tell I will probably end up doimg more laps of Laguna Seca.

 

[PzR Slim]

Poor Sele... I just read a post where he was defending FM in the GT section. That's not what I'd call an FM4 hater. Guess you can't win sometimes, LOL.

Obligatory on-topic... An inaccurate Nordschliefe isn't a game breaker for me. Truth to tell I will probably end up doimg more laps of Laguna Seca.

You see that's the thing. A big song and dance is made of the Ring in FM but for people like you who love Seca, the FM version is the better bet. Each game has it's faults in terms of car and track models, which means it's difficult to tar either one in that regard. For some a less then perfect Green Hell is a big deal but an inaccurate Seca is no biggy but then for others it's the other way round. And as has already been mentioned in this thread the GT version of the Ring is not perfect either.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

I am included in that, if Laguna is wrong I am dissapoint. I love that track to death. Along with Road America, and Road Atlanta...

 

[Sele1981]

Just an member told me that I should give the NS in FM3 another try and should join the Carrera GT "event" that you guys started here...

Till then, I was not 100% confident with FM3 physics, they are really not my thing. But anyway, I had fun with it and I already preordered FM4 LCE.

But then, I tried the NS with an Carrera GT and was very very close to cancel my FM4 preorder!

I dont know if T10 gave the cars on the Nordschleife extra grip or whatever? I was shocked! Really, I cant imagine that you can drive a Carrera GT like I did in FM3... That much grip really reminds me on Need for Speed...

I enjoy both games and I cant wait to get FM4 on friday! But yeah, physics wise I prefer GT5. Sorry but it´s more challenging to me. And as I am a real Nordschleife addict, I really cant accept what T10 did in their game...

As I said, the other tracks are accurate.

And in fact, both games have a lot of dissapointments for me. None of them is perfect and F12010 was the real racing game for me last year.

 

[azrael1965]

And in fact, both games have a lot of dissapointments for me. None of them is perfect and F12010 was the real racing game for me last year.

Right now F1 2011 is also the most enjoyable game for me right now. But I will try the Nordschleife in Forza 4 as soon as i get the game. Should be still a lot of fun as the physics seem to have been improved.

 

[Deadpool]

It's been discovered recently on these forums that the track is not too wide in FM but more too narrow in GT.

That couldn't be further from the truth, the only people who might make this claim are those looking at online videos/pictures but have never driven the real thing. But some of us have driven the real thing ( I have) and can attest to GT5's width being spot on while FM's is way too wide and too long. This is a FACT, and until you have driven the real thing, you have no say in the matter.

In particular the elevation changes are not as pronounced or severe as they should be, which makes a big difference when you compare driving the real thing to game versions.

The elevation changes will never be as pronounced in real life. Even when watching videos of the Ring IRL you never understand how great the elevation changes are. It's just one of those things that you have to be there to truly understand (driven the Ring many times IRL).

The lap times are already comparable with real life

Thought I'd leave this little note.

A lot of the supposed inaccuracies are purely down to the default field of view Forza uses. It's very, very wide and is used to try and give a sense of speed.

Default FoV


Adjusted

I noticed very little difference between the change in FOV. But what I did notice, was that the track is still WAY too wide in many areas, particularly corners. This was to make passing easier/possible for online racing. The problem is, it completely ruins the track as the lines you can take are completely different to GT5 and RL.

And for an example of GT5's accuracy. I took a Audi A3 around the Ring IRL and in the game, drove the same lines at roughly the same speeds and my lap times were within ten seconds of each other. Those 10sec can be attributed to some of the really high speed corners where there is no consequence in a game.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Amazing how people that have actually driven around the nearly 13 miles of Green Hell memorized every single spot, width, bump and embankment. I have RACED on Road America numerous times, and I don't have every single detail memorized. Kudos to them!

 

[azrael1965]

http://www.amazon.de/dp/B0017Y0FOY/
Instuction videos like this with guidiance from professionals can help too, I bought this one to prepare me for the real life track.
The GT5 looks quite similar to the track shown in these videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB0FNwRFUdM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmgGAA47DlQ
the Forza one .. not so much

As you see we take the track quite serious in germany, so when the track is 100 cm wider, you know that all the training is worth ****, because the lines are messed up. So if a game company wants to recreate the sensation of driving on the Nordschleife for its customers, they should stick closer to the original. Otherwise it's just a fake. Well i know, some don't even care if it's fake or not. So maybe Turn 10 doesn't need to bother.

 

[Deadpool]

Amazing how people that have actually driven around the nearly 13 miles of Green Hell memorized every single spot, width, bump and embankment. I have RACED on Road America numerous times, and I don't have every single detail memorized. Kudos to them!

I did probably 2-3,000 laps in GT4 before my first trip to the Ring. It took me 3 laps to adjust to the elevation changes and the 4th lap I was doing hot laps near my GT4 times.

Last time I was there they pissed me off though. We sell some Porsches in Germany, and I took out the 993TT to the Ring with my dealer plate. I pull up for the lap "sorry sir..... no dealer plates". Probably the worst case of blue balls I've ever had, because that would have been one hell of a day, love the LTO that car has.

 

[Bogie 19th]

No dealer plates? Do they actually think consumers might be TEST DRIVING cars on the ring?

 

[Deadpool]

No dealer plates? Do they actually think consumers might be TEST DRIVING cars on the ring?

People take rentals cars on the Ring all the time, and they have been starting to crack down on it. I just got unlucky that he took interest in the car which is why he noticed. I tried explaining that it was my business and hence my car but he wasn't listening. 170mph on the Autobahn on my way home helped my mood, turned a 2hr drive into 35min haha.

 

[Luminis]

No dealer plates? Do they actually think consumers might be TEST DRIVING cars on the ring?

That, and there are likely issues with the insurance. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case, knowing German insurrance companies. The Nordschleife is, after all, a public road when not used for a race.

Also, I assume that most people will be more careful with their real cars on a track. And more familiar, too.

Anyways, even Wikipedia states that cars with dealer plates aren't allowed on the 'Ring, so I guess it wasn't just an official who wanted to bully someone.

But I gotta say, it's impressive that some members can adjust to their GT4 pace within a few laps. Considering that there even are speed limits throughout some parts of the track in place for normal laps, that makes it all the more awe inspiring.

Same goes fir the track day, which is where a lot of the VLN teams do some testing and the track is generally crowded - as opposed to hot laps in GT4.

Not doubting anyone, just saying.

 

[HAL20XX]

...Or even better said, when the developers feel the game is what it should be.. living to their mantra.. The Real Driving Simulator.

If PD released GT5 when it was "what it should be" I'd hate to see what they consider an incomplete game.

 

[FyreandIce]

You know, I just noticed the lovely double standards.

It's perfectly fine to say GT's Laguna Seca is accurate due to lap times but to say the same thing about Forza and the Nurburgring isn't ok?

 

[Deadpool]

But I gotta say, it's impressive that some members can adjust to their GT4 pace within a few laps. Considering that there even are speed limits throughout some parts of the track in place for normal laps, that makes it all the more awe inspiring.

The only speed limit is on the front straight where you exit/enter the track on public days. Other than that there are no speed limits.

 

[Deadpool]

You know, I just noticed the lovely double standards.

It's perfectly fine to say GT's Laguna Seca is accurate due to lap times but to say the same thing about Forza and the Nurburgring isn't ok?

I can't say anything about Laguna as I have never driven the real thing, and barely drive it in GT. If it is too long or something is very wrong, then yes the lap times are not an indication of track accuracy. GT's Ring is accurate simply because it is widely considered to be the best and nearly perfect rendition by those who have drivern/raced it. The lap times just naturally fall into place when the car model/physics and track are accurate representations of real life.

 

[FyreandIce]

I can't say anything about Laguna as I have never driven the real thing, and barely drive it in GT. If it is too long or something is very wrong, then yes the lap times are not an indication of track accuracy. GT's Ring is accurate simply because it is widely considered to be the best and nearly perfect rendition by those who have drivern/raced it. The lap times just naturally fall into place when the car model/physics and track are accurate representations of real life.

But you see, the lap times don't fall into place in GT5.

Many standard cars with their recommended tyre are several seconds faster than their real life counterpart.

 

[Deadpool]

But you see, the lap times don't fall into place in GT5.

Many standard cars with their recommended tyre are several seconds faster than their real life counterpart.

There are two problems that you didn't account for. First, the Ring is nearly 13miles long, 5-10 seconds is really not much time at all over the course of a lap when you factor in that you will be taking MUCH bigger risks in a game then you would even consider to do in real life.

For instance, take the GTR. I think some have done low 7:10 laps right? That's about 10-12 seconds faster than the real life car. If someone had a death wish and the skill, I'm sure they could get down to those times, but we have this little thing called preservation of life in us.

Another problem is in the tires. Most of the time, the standard tires are not the equivalent of the street tire it came with. If you downgrade to comfort tires you will find they usually handle more like the street car would on it's stock tires, and the lap time at the Ring will be similar as well.

 

[FyreandIce]

There are two problems that you didn't account for. First, the Ring is nearly 13miles long, 5-10 seconds is really not much time at all over the course of a lap when you factor in that you will be taking MUCH bigger risks in a game then you would even consider to do in real life.

For instance, take the GTR. I think some have done low 7:10 laps right? That's about 10-12 seconds faster than the real life car. If someone had a death wish and the skill, I'm sure they could get down to those times, but we have this little thing called preservation of life in us.

Because the official manufacturers just pull anyone off the street to set their Nurburgring times

Another problem is in the tires. Most of the time, the standard tires are not the equivalent of the street tire it came with. If you downgrade to comfort tires you will find they usually handle more like the street car would on it's stock tires, and the lap time at the Ring will be similar as well.

So you have to put tyres that are worse than the car is meant to have to make it more realistic?

 

[Deadpool]

Because the official manufacturers just pull anyone off the street to set their Nurburgring times

........seriously?

What is it that we have seen with the GT Academy?? We have seen the "ELITE" players of GT5 move on to actual racing. These are the type of people who set these really fast times in GT5. For instance, let's say we take one of the guys who ran a 7:10 in the GTR on GT5. The odds are he has at least some track time, and I'm confident that this person could run a time in the 7:30's easy. For instance, a few magazine drivers recently ran times just under 8min in the damp.

Then you have guys on here who probably don't have the skill to run under 9min at the Ring in a GTR...... but guess what, they probably wont fare much better in GT5. I see plenty of people post awful times at the Ring, you either know it or you don't...... or don't have much driving skill to begin with.

Then you have guys who have the technical skill/knowledge of racing, but they don't have the "balls" to ever drive that hard in real life. This could be seen in Group B rally racing where it became less a matter of skill, and more a case of who had the largest gonads.

Here is a perfect example. Recently there was a guy on one of the sim boards, decent driver, who got to try IIRC the Mclaren simulator and he did pretty well. He actually was faster through a particular section than their pro drivers because he took a different line.

Bottom line, we all know there is a big difference between the top 1% to the top 9% of us. Probably a 10-20sec difference. And it just get's worse as we go on as driver skill drastically disappears.

The average person would have a hard time doing under 9min in a GTR on GT5. And that's being generous.

So you have to put tyres that are worse than the car is meant to have to make it more realistic?

You missed the point. It didn't come with the tires is was supposed to have.

 

[azrael1965]

What is it that we have seen with the GT Academy?? We have seen the "ELITE" players of GT5 move on to actual racing. These are the type of people who set these really fast times in GT5. For instance, let's say we take one of the guys who ran a 7:10 in the GTR on GT5. The odds are he has at least some track time, and I'm confident that this person could run a time in the 7:30's easy. For instance, a few magazine drivers recently ran times just under 8min in the damp. Then you have guys on here who probably don't have the skill to run under 9min at the Ring in a GTR...... but guess what, they probably wont fare much better in GT5. I see plenty of people post awful times at the Ring, you either know it or you don't...... or don't have much driving skill to begin with.

Then you have guys who have the technical skill/knowledge of racing, but they don't have the "balls" to ever drive that hard in real life. This could be seen in Group B rally racing where it became less a matter of skill, and more a case of who had the largest gonads.

Here is a perfect example. Recently there was a guy on one of the sim boards, decent driver, who got to try IIRC the Mclaren simulator and he did pretty well. He actually was faster through a particular section than their pro drivers because he took a different line.

Bottom line, we all know there is a big difference between the top 1% to the top 9% of us. Probably a 10-20sec difference. And it just get's worse as we go on as driver skill drastically disappears.

The average person would have a hard time doing under 9min in a GTR on GT5. And that's being generous.

I don't think anyone except Toshio Suzuki will lap the Gt-R faster than 7:30. He is just so much faster than anyone else because it is just HIS car. Other pro driver managed times from 7:36 to 7:45. So i am sure that noone who is just fast on GT5 will be faster then 8:00 even if extremly talented. The guys who manage to be so quick so in the game, do this because it' still a game afterall. You can pull off stunts and take shortcuts you will never be able to do in real life. The Gt5 version is quite good but still far from perfect. At least it has the correct proportions, the forza doesn't. Right now it shouldn't even be called Nordschleife. Maybe fantasytrack based on Nordschleife would suit it better or 'Nordschleife 10% enlarged'.
We have more then 200 cars every year on the same track at the 24h race and you have to enlarge the track for better online multiplayer experience? That is laughable.

 

[FyreandIce]

........seriously?

What is it that we have seen with the GT Academy?? We have seen the "ELITE" players of GT5 move on to actual racing. These are the type of people who set these really fast times in GT5. For instance, let's say we take one of the guys who ran a 7:10 in the GTR on GT5. The odds are he has at least some track time, and I'm confident that this person could run a time in the 7:30's easy. For instance, a few magazine drivers recently ran times just under 8min in the damp.

Then you have guys on here who probably don't have the skill to run under 9min at the Ring in a GTR...... but guess what, they probably wont fare much better in GT5. I see plenty of people post awful times at the Ring, you either know it or you don't...... or don't have much driving skill to begin with.

Then you have guys who have the technical skill/knowledge of racing, but they don't have the "balls" to ever drive that hard in real life. This could be seen in Group B rally racing where it became less a matter of skill, and more a case of who had the largest gonads.

Here is a perfect example. Recently there was a guy on one of the sim boards, decent driver, who got to try IIRC the Mclaren simulator and he did pretty well. He actually was faster through a particular section than their pro drivers because he took a different line.

Bottom line, we all know there is a big difference between the top 1% to the top 9% of us. Probably a 10-20sec difference. And it just get's worse as we go on as driver skill drastically disappears.

The average person would have a hard time doing under 9min in a GTR on GT5. And that's being generous.



You missed the point. It didn't come with the tires is was supposed to have.

lol, just lol.

Want to know the difference between a professional race car driver and some random bloke off the street is? Lack of fear. A real race car driver doesn't set out to do a hot lap 10% under the cars abilities. They give 10 tenths at all times. Being 10-20 seconds faster in the game means the game is inaccurate. It has nothing to do with the real life driver quivering in fear...

 

[azrael1965]

lol, just lol.

Want to know the difference between a professional race car driver and some random bloke off the street is? Lack of fear. A real race car driver doesn't set out to do a hot lap 10% under the cars abilities. They give 10 tenths at all times. Being 10-20 seconds faster in the game means the game is inaccurate. It has nothing to do with the real life driver quivering in fear...

This is just so wrong. Of course a professionell drivers fear death as well.
It's just that it starts to get risky for them much later.
http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/0,1518,727024,00.html
german interview with the Bugatti test driver Angst=fear in german

 

[FyreandIce]

Because they're totally doing 400km/h around corners

 

[JJ72]

You missed the point. It didn't come with the tires is was supposed to have.

A very popular excuse. 👍

Might just as well say it doesn't come with the specs it was supposed to have.

 

[Deadpool]

lol, just lol.

Want to know the difference between a professional race car driver and some random bloke off the street is? Lack of fear. A real race car driver doesn't set out to do a hot lap 10% under the cars abilities. They give 10 tenths at all times. Being 10-20 seconds faster in the game means the game is inaccurate. It has nothing to do with the real life driver quivering in fear...

I realize you don't know anything about me, so I'll clue you in. I have my FIA C license and my family has been in racing for 30+ years racing 962's, 911's etc etc. Right now we race a 934.5 in a historic series in Europe and it is generally considered to be the fastest in the world.......... so I don't have a clue what I'm talking about.

And no...... they don't go 10/10 at all times. 10/10 is qualifying speed, not race speed, there is a difference. Qualifying speed is where you hang it all out there, race speed you need to be able to run lap after lap while conserving tires etc.

10-20 seconds on the Ring is the equivalent of 1-2 seconds on a normal track. What's that you say..... in F1 or other race series, the qualifying times are 1-2 seconds slower than during the race.

Here's another diddy for you, and it has to do with the Ring. The current lap record is 6:11 set by Stefan Bellof. Want to know what Jochen Mass did with the same car? 6:16. The reason? Everyone said Bellof was out of his mind taking risks nobody else would. Guess what Bellof's fastest lap was in the race. 6:26. 15 seconds slower!!

How can you not understand the simple concept of being able to push harder in a simulation than in real life???!!! Even Hamilton/Vettel and the other F1 drivers post faster times in simulations because they can try and squeeze out the last 1% of time without worrying about crashing. But I guess their setups are not accurate

Back in the 80's in F1 you could have a slower car beat a faster chassis due to the driver's skill/balls, today that doesn't happen because the tracks/cars are so much safer. Go do your research buddy. How about Jackie Stewart who pushed for safety when the drivers finally realized that it was getting insane and feared for their lives.

You could give me a 100% perfect simulation of a track, physics/everything 100% perfect. Guess what....... I will run a faster time at the Ring without question. Why? Because I will try to go through that corner 5mph faster, or the other one 10mph while getting closer to the wall on exit..... I'll see if I can take that other one nearly flat etc. I will essentially leave no room for error and THAT is the difference. In racing you leave room for error when we say 10/10 in racing, that includes room for error, it's a small amount but it's still there. In a simulation you are pushing 12/10.

I don't think anyone except Toshio Suzuki will lap the Gt-R faster than 7:30. He is just so much faster than anyone else because it is just HIS car. Other pro driver managed times from 7:36 to 7:45. So i am sure that noone who is just fast on GT5 will be faster then 8:00 even if extremly talented. The guys who manage to be so quick so in the game, do this because it' still a game afterall. You can pull off stunts and take shortcuts you will never be able to do in real life.

Friend of mine teaches at a Audi track school on the Ring and has run the GTR many times. He said 7:30's are easy and normal for them. I have no doubts other drivers could get under 7:30 and I am 100% positive someone could beat Toshio's time.

I can tell you right now, with a GTR I would have no problem getting under 8min in a GTR. There are a lot of us who are fast on the Ring while taking very clean lines, no shortcuts etc. If you took any of the GT Academy winners to do this challenge, no doubts they would all be under 8min.

 

[Deadpool]

A very popular excuse. 👍

Might just as well say it doesn't come with the specs it was supposed to have.

It's not a excuse it's a FACT. Specs are standardized, tires are not. With tires you have hundreds of different brands/compounds. PD gave us a very narrow window of tires and they don't always have the right tire on the car. I've had some cars with standard tires handle like the real car would on a much sticker tire. Then I downgrade the tire and it responds like the stock tires.

 

[JJ72]

For some car it does and for some cars it don't, if you open that as a kind of reasoning then pretty much everything is out of the window and depends pretty much on a subjective experience.

A guy slower than you would claim the better tire is more realistic because the lap time matches up better for him, then it's down to people arguing which one feels more realistic or throwing out skidpad figures that can differ from test to test.

It's a slippery slope.

Like the top gear track in GT5, every power lap I did was easily 3 or so second quicker than the real time, but then is it the track grip value being too high or all the cars having too good a tire? or a factor of both? When the only thing that can determine the right tire choice comes down to lap time and vague impressions (I am sure you know a lot more about most other people, but a subjective impression is in the end subjective), it is no longer a creditable point to judge the overall track modeling on.

On a side note though, in the early 90's you still hear people talk about commitment corners, brave drivers like Mansell Warwick etc but in this safe day and age it is not that much a factor anymore. Race pace are slower because of mostly tire/fuel conservation and you always leave a safety margin, but the difference between the race pace and a full on lap could be less than 3 tenths over a min, with a capable driver and reliable car.

 

[Deadpool]

For some car it does and for some cars it don't, if you open that as a kind of reasoning then pretty much everything is out of the window and depends pretty much on a subjective experience.

I agree that it's not with every car, but jumping from that to throwing everything else out the window is a really big leap and not really comparable in the same way IMO.

On a side note though, in the early 90's you still hear people talk about commitment corners, brave drivers like Mansell Warwick etc but in this safe day and age it is not that much a factor anymore. Race pace are slower because of mostly tire/fuel conservation and you always leave a safety margin, but the difference between the race pace and a full on lap could be less than 3 tenths over a min, with a capable driver and reliable car.

Commitment corners are virtually gone from F1, the last one was Eau Rouge before being repaved. If fuel/tire consumption wasn't a factor then yes, current F1 drivers could probably be within a second of their qualifying times each lap. BUT the Ring is far different, because 90% of the corners are commitment corners. Which is why a 10+ second margin is to be expected.

 

[azrael1965]

Commitment corners are virtually gone from F1, the last one was Eau Rouge before being repaved. If fuel/tire consumption wasn't a factor then yes, current F1 drivers could probably be within a second of their qualifying times each lap. BUT the Ring is far different, because 90% of the corners are commitment corners. Which is why a 10+ second margin is to be expected.

http://www.motorvision.de/artikel/paganizonda-r-knackt-den-rekord-auf-der-nordschleife,3174.html
Even the driver of the record holding Zonda R admitted that he could be up to 8 seconds faster. So he didn't drive the car on its limit. That would be a awesome time of 6:39 .