Forza 4 vs GT5 physics (read the first post before contributing)

[Shaggy Alonso]

At present I'm literally adverse to touching the brakes at all without abs on 1. Call me a noob, but I've never experienced that in any other racing game, even SuperCar Challenge which was the hardest racing game I've ever played in terms of braking.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

At present I'm literally adverse to touching the brakes at all without abs on 1. Call me a noob, but I've never experienced that in any other racing game, even SuperCar Challenge which was the hardest racing game I've ever played in terms of braking.

If you change the front to 3 and rear to 1 on brake bias, you will find it gets much better. You can work your way up from that. Stock settings do not work well as it is 5 front and rear.

 

[Shaggy Alonso]

Thanks Ali, that sounds helpful. I try not to race with any aids but I've hitherto found the ABS to be a necessary evil

Anything I can do for my steering ratio on the G27 (or at least something to make it seem better?)

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Thanks Ali, that sounds helpful. I try not to race with any aids but I've hitherto found the ABS to be a necessary evil

Anything I can do for my steering ratio on the G27 (or at least something to make it seem better?)

ABS on 1 is usually a must to stay really competitive but tweaking the brake bias makes no ABS more workable.

There is no steering ratio thing for G27. At least it is official wheel now and the buttons work. You can get the RA menu and use that to tweak your brake bias on the fly. Maybe some hot lapping in a TT will get used to the turning. This event requires more turning than usual, maybe if you get up to speed on that, it will help you understand the limits of adhesion better but at a more extreme level due to SRF. http://eu.gran-turismo.com/gb/products/gt5/event/d38079.html

The person who is number 1 is using a G27 with force feedback level on 3 and simulation with no power steering,

 

[Machate-man]

I have a question:

I know that GT5's tyres are more of a G-force multiplier, increasing ~0.4-0.5 G every tyre softer you go. However, you end up with most cars hitting 1.5-2 Gs, despite being stock. This is especially apparent when using racing softs.

In FM4, racing-grade tyres add ~.200 - .500 G to your cornering force, where you'll end up with a final G-force count of around 1.1(street cars like Ford Focus) to ~1.5 or 1.6 (GT1, LMP)

However, those G-force readings are taken from "Benchmark", where the reading can vary on track, especially if there's embankment (negative camber corners); in this case it would increase.


Now, finally for my question:

Which game represents tyre grip better?

Evidence in a handy table:
On Racing Slicks;
FM4 tyres hit 1.1 and 1.5G for street and race cars respectively.

GT5 tyres(Racing soft in this case) hit 1.5 and 2.0G for street and race cars respectively.

I would say that adding slicks to a stock Ford Focus would likely yield around 1G, but race cars would possibly hit more; around 1.8 - 2G would be closer. The race car's grip isn't represented properly IMO.

GT5 has unreal G readings, though. It seems I can't make a decision here

 

[ghd765]

For me, Forza physics just seem a bit too much like NFS, you can drift around just about anything in just about anything

 

[CromaTurboIE]

I do not like the Forza 4, different tire compounds are almost similar
with GT5 different tire feels a lot different! 👍

 

[themartlab]

Just played few races of FM4 with Lexus LF-A tuned, Lotus Elise tuned also and i jus don't like how the car feels. Seems sluggish, yes the graphics and details are beyond GT5 but i really don't like the control.

 

[Scaff]

For me, Forza physics just seem a bit too much like NFS, you can drift around just about anything in just about anything

Care to provide an example so we can discuss it or was this just a throw away comment without substance?

I do not like the Forza 4, different tire compounds are almost similar
with GT5 different tire feels a lot different! 👍

I find the exact opposite, particularly given that GT5s tyre model doesn't had deformation, nor does it account for different widths and tyre pressures.

Just played few races of FM4 with Lexus LF-A tuned, Lotus Elise tuned also and i jus don't like how the car feels. Seems sluggish, yes the graphics and details are beyond GT5 but i really don't like the control.

Feel is a very subjective thing, personally I far prefer FM4's feel over GT5s, with load transfer and tyre grip levels being far better communicated for me.


Scaff

 

[yzfmike]

I wish someone would just make a list of everything, saying what one game has and the other does not. Something like a simple chart. I hate seeing people bicker back and forth over nonsense. I never had an xbox (360) so I am out of the loop a bit.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Well the poll is pretty self explanatory.

 

[Scaff]

I wish someone would just make a list of everything, saying what one game has and the other does not. Something like a simple chart. I hate seeing people bicker back and forth over nonsense. I never had an xbox (360) so I am out of the loop a bit.

Then watch them bicker over the chart

Well the poll is pretty self explanatory.

Same goes for the one over at Forza Planet, guess how that one looks.


Scaff

 

[yzfmike]

Then watch them bicker over the chart


Same goes for the one over at Forza Planet, guess how that one looks.


Scaff

I know, I read Forza planet, and its just lots of bickering. I am surprised its been opened again. I wonder when it will get closed again.

 

[amar212]

Feel is a very subjective thing, personally I far prefer FM4's feel over GT5s, with load transfer and tyre grip levels being far better communicated for me.
Scaff

Hey Scaff, have you had a chance to try Fanatec CSR Elite?

If not, I really honestly wish you that treat. After the "fixit" FM4 patch and introduction of fully-released Simulation physics with proper tire-grip and tire-snap points the feel is really, really another universe.

 

[Scaff]

I know, I read Forza planet, and its just lots of bickering. I am surprised its been opened again. I wonder when it will get closed again.

You must be reading a different Forza Planet to me then, because its certainly not just bickering at all.

In regard to threads being locked, for me if the thread is a worthwhile topic then I will do all to keep it open. Any member who feels they would like to drag a valid thread off topic or simply post flame-bait however will find that rather than the thread being closed (which is often the aim they have) they take a holiday from GT Planet for a few days.

It works amazingly well in re-enforcing the AUP for those under the mistaken belief that its optional.

Hey Scaff, have you had a chance to try Fanatec CSR Elite?

If not, I really honestly wish you that treat. After the "fixit" FM4 patch and introduction of fully-released Simulation physics with proper tire-grip and tire-snap points the feel is really, really another universe.

I've not had the pleasure, but now your making me want to spend money on things my wife would kill me for.

Now I shall have to go and hunt down someone rich and daft to buy me one.


Scaff

 

[sik180sx]

I had to run with gt5 on this one,i have owned all forza's,and only just recently purchased gt5.Sure the tyre model is flawed but so is forza's.

In forza,even though you can adjust tyre pressure,there is minimal difference between handling,it really only affects how quickly the tyres heat up,low pressure heats up quickly,and higher pressures take longer.
Also camber settings are a mystery,because anything over 1 degree of camber and its understeer central,which is just wrong,most racecars run upwards of 3 degrees.

Also whats to say that gt doesn't set optimum tyre pressure automatically for you?I'm not saying it does but whats to say it doesn't

 

[evilserpentman]

I think FM4 is what happens when GT5 and NFS are combined...

Physics are inconsistent, but it has all the non-racing elements that we crave in GT.

GT5 wins on physics, not perfect, but a good resemblance of the real thing, rather than an arcadey interpretation.

 

[TokoTurismo]

For me, my vote is on GT5. Yeah I have both GT5 and FM4, but to be honest GT5's physics just makes me want to try out all the cars right away. I like FM4's physics too but theres something about it that makes me feel uncomfortable the way the cars handle.

 

[sik180sx]

I think FM4 is what happens when GT5 and NFS are combined...

Physics are inconsistent, but it has all the non-racing elements that we crave in GT.

GT5 wins on physics, not perfect, but a good resemblance of the real thing, rather than an arcadey interpretation.

This is spot on,neither are perfect but gt5 wins by a whisker.
It just feels way more natural than forza,not only that forza gets old quick,i made level 150 1 month after release,and had a full garage(500 cars)aswell.

 

[Watt2159]

Firstly, there is no way that they are the same, GT5's physics are veeeery advanced, that doesn't mean I'm saying they're completely realistic, and no I'm not just saying that because this a GT fan site, but its because GT5's physics deal with a wide range of cars, hybrids, race cars, fan cars, F1 cars, NASCAR, LM cars, rally cars, and regular cars, and with each they have their own unique characteristics, such as hybrids with their gears, and regenerative braking, its just more.........complex, which gives it obviously more realism, as each cars handles, drives, and are mechanically, different. However with Forza, it seems like every car is based on a basic idea of what the car is like in real life, so many cars in FM4 may share the same characteristics that they obviously wouldn't have in real life, however thats not saying that FM4 isn't completely realistic cars do actually feel like cars, but they feel a little.......different.

 

[J0SH1]

Haha on the gt5 thread most of the votes are for GT5 and on the Forza thread most of the votes are for Forza. Obviously if you ask people on GTplanet , there going to vote for Gt5. Same goes for Forza.

 

[Spagetti69]

Which physics on GT are you guys saying is realistic?

Online or off?

 

[PzR Slim]

I had to run with gt5 on this one,i have owned all forza's,and only just recently purchased gt5.Sure the tyre model is flawed but so is forza's.

In forza,even though you can adjust tyre pressure,there is minimal difference between handling,it really only affects how quickly the tyres heat up,low pressure heats up quickly,and higher pressures take longer.
Also camber settings are a mystery,because anything over 1 degree of camber and its understeer central,which is just wrong,most racecars run upwards of 3 degrees.

Also whats to say that gt doesn't set optimum tyre pressure automatically for you?I'm not saying it does but whats to say it doesn't

I think FM4 is what happens when GT5 and NFS are combined...

Physics are inconsistent, but it has all the non-racing elements that we crave in GT.

GT5 wins on physics, not perfect, but a good resemblance of the real thing, rather than an arcadey interpretation.

For me, my vote is on GT5. Yeah I have both GT5 and FM4, but to be honest GT5's physics just makes me want to try out all the cars right away. I like FM4's physics too but theres something about it that makes me feel uncomfortable the way the cars handle.

Ok guys I'm going to quote Scaff here, I'm sure he won't mind as he has been looking for this to be answered by those who think GT5 has the better physics for quite some time.

OK, then I will pose a little vehicle dynamics question and once we have an answer we can test it in both.

What do you believe should happen (in the real world) when you launch a low weight, high bhp and torque rear wheel drive car, with old school leaf spring suspension off the line?


Scaff

Now go get in a Shelby Cobra in GT5 and try it.

The best test is if you don't try and correct it, keep the steering straight and the car should of course want to spin.

Oh - here's FM4 and the same test:




Scaff

So there we go, off you go and carry out the same test in GT5 and report back with your results. We might just see that GT5 is not quite as good as you think.

 

[BWX]

Forza Planet Poll
Gran Turismo 5 ---- 35 ----- 25.18%
Forza 4 ------------- 72 ----- 51.80%
They are equal ----- 32 ----- 23.02%

GT Planet Poll
Gran Turismo 5 ---- 481 --- 82.50%
Forza 4 ------------- 65 ---- 11.15%
They are equal ----- 37 ----- 6.35%

More % of people on FP think they are equal than GTP members. 23% / 6.35%

Larger % on Forza Planet think GT5 is more realistic compared to GTP members that think Forza is more realistic. 25% / 11%

More percentage of GT5 members think GT5 is more realistic compared to FP members that think Forza is more real. 82% / 51%

If you averaged it all out, just measuring the percentage of people who think GT5 and Forza are the same, or that GT5's physics are more realistic, GT5 wins even when taking both polls into consideration. Basically more percentage of Forza Planet members admit that GT5's physics are more real than do GT Planet's members admit that Forza's physics are more real.

If you go by what the community thinks as a whole, GT5 physics are thought to be more realistic. If you go by just raw numbers, GT5 wins by a huge amount- 481 to 72.

 

[SkyBreaker]

I would have to go with GT5, but not by a lot. Both have major issue as is.
I don't personally own Forza 4, but I have played it at a friend's house (not sure how similar the physics are to Forza 3, but I did play/own Forza 3 a lot as well).

For me, GT5's physics handles the transition from grip to skid for the tires better than Forza 4 (I'm not talking about tire deformation). This works hand in hand with the inertia/momentum that exists in GT5's cars when going from side to side. For example, if you are at high speeds and end up fishtailing, it's very difficult to correct the loss of control and the car reacts very violently when the car goes from side to side. In Forza 4, it's definitely not violent and it's much too easy to correct oversteering. When you end in a skid in Forza 4, the car just skids in the direction with the car not reacting violently to the tires trying to grip the road, and the car does not whip around like mad when you countersteer. For example, end up going sideways in Forza and you will just continue to slide until you come to a complete stop while in GT5 you are more likely to flip to the other direction as the tires really try to get grip. Just go to any real life drift event and you'll see how fast the cars can turn from clipping point to clipping point. When you drift in Forza, the cars don't turn as quickly as the tires do not react as violently with the road.

But Forza 4 does seem to be superior in its tire physics when under heavy cornering (not when entering a skid), and I assume this is due to the tire deformation (which I believe is absent in GT5's physics?).

Forza 4 does have another problem along with the previous one listed. The car's fluctuations in its suspension is way to pronounced and emphasized when racing. I'm not talking about how bumpy the road is, but how the suspension in Forza 4 acts like jelly when going over imperfections in the road. It's good that the suspensions is sensitive to the bumps, but it is overdone.

GT5 does have flaws as well, and this has do with high powered cars with high amounts of torque. Cars should have a natural tendency to spin out with high torque, and wheel spin is something that is not pronounced enough in GT5 for many of the cars when from a standstill (but this does not apply for ALL the cars, some do spin out easily). Most of the other problems with GT5 I agree with what was already posted, so that sums up my opinion.



And does anyone know how many cycles/sec GT5's physics engine runs at? I know Forza 3 ran at 360 hertz while GT5 Prologue ran at 60 hertz (NOT TALKING ABOUT FRAMERATE).

 

[BWX]

But Forza 4 does seem to be superior in its tire physics when under heavy cornering (not when entering a skid), and I assume this is due to the tire deformation (which I believe is absent in GT5's physics?).

Just because tire deformation isn't graphically shown in GT5, doesn't mean it isn't calculated into the physics model. I don't think anyone can prove it either way.

But that skidding reaction (or lack there of) you described in F4 is exactly the same reason I don't like rFactor's physics on the PC. It has the exact same problem.

 

[PzR Slim]

Forza Planet Poll
Gran Turismo 5 ---- 35 ----- 25.18%
Forza 4 ------------- 72 ----- 51.80%
They are equal ----- 32 ----- 23.02%

GT Planet Poll
Gran Turismo 5 ---- 481 --- 82.50%
Forza 4 ------------- 65 ---- 11.15%
They are equal ----- 37 ----- 6.35%

More % of people on FP think they are equal than GTP members. 23% / 6.35%

Larger % on Forza Planet think GT5 is more realistic compared to GTP members that think Forza is more realistic. 25% / 11%

More percentage of GT5 members think GT5 is more realistic compared to FP members that think Forza is more real. 82% / 51%

If you averaged it all out, just measuring the percentage of people who think GT5 and Forza are the same, or that GT5's physics are more realistic, GT5 wins even when taking both polls into consideration. Basically more percentage of Forza Planet members admit that GT5's physics are more real than do GT Planet's members admit that Forza's physics are more real.

If you go by what the community thinks as a whole, GT5 physics are thought to be more realistic. If you go by just raw numbers, GT5 wins by a huge amount- 481 to 72.

Yes, however, you would be amazed at the number of people posting over at FP that do not even own a copy of FM4

 

[SkyBreaker]

Ok guys I'm going to quote Scaff here, I'm sure he won't mind as he has been looking for this to be answered by those who think GT5 has the better physics for quite some time.




So there we go, off you go and carry out the same test in GT5 and report back with your results. We might just see that GT5 is not quite as good as you think.

Okay, I just hopped on to GT5 with the shelby cobra. I don't have a video, but GT5 definitely did not react with the oversteer that was present in Forza.
In GT5, the car had wheel spin but was still able to maintain a straight line (even if you turned a little bit while the wheels were spinning freely, the car did not start a burnout unless you turned the wheel a significant amount).

 

[evilserpentman]

Ok guys I'm going to quote Scaff here...

I'll agree with that, Forza has put effort into launching; with the drag racing component and all.

However, it does really feel like it polishes tiny pieces of an otherwise dull, dirty rock. It has good parts, but the overall experience is a bit inconsistent, hence my main gripe, they've modelled a lot of unique features to a basic platform.

GT5 is more like a dull gemstone, it has no real standout feature to the physics, but they work, and it makes sense.
Picking up a DS3 and playing GT5 is a lot easier to me than picking up an Xbox controller and playing Forza.

GT5 is intuiative, it is the easy-to-pick-up but difficult-to-master racer, whereas Forza only really has it's big physics features for the really hardcore, and they're most likely not going to be impressed by the platform it's connected to.

Of course, this is all opinion, remember that. Nothing is perfect.

 

[PzR Slim]

Okay, I just hopped on to GT5 with the shelby cobra. I don't have a video, but GT5 definitely did not react with the oversteer that was present in Forza.
In GT5, the car had wheel spin but was still able to maintain a straight line (even if you turned while the wheels were spinning freely, the car did not start doing burnouts).

Thanks for that, I'm sure @Scaff will be over the moon that someone has finally had a go at his test in GT5 👍

That is just one example of where FM4's physics are superior to GT5's. I'm absolutely certain a lot of people's opinion in this thread have no basis in reality. They have just chosen their 'favourite'. There is a huge amount of evidence available, including a lot on GTP that shows just how bad the tyre modelling in GT5 is. For example, completely different cars on the same tyres produce exactly the same cornering G's. Very strange.