Forza 4 vs GT5 physics (read the first post before contributing)

[hennessey86]

So what your saying is people who havent played with a wheel have no business posting in here?

So much for freedom of expressing your thoughts on a forum.

Just because someone uses a controller only doesnt mean they should be excluded from a discussion.

this is a physics discussion and as far as I am concerned if you don't use a wheel your opinion means nothing. I have been sim racing a long time and from my own experience I know that a pad in no way simulates driving. More to the point, this guy has given Forza 4 5/10 in the physics department and you don't think the fact that he played with a pad had anything to do with that.

 

[TokoTurismo]

So what your saying is people who havent played with a wheel have no business posting in here?

So much for freedom of expressing your thoughts on a forum.

Just because someone uses a controller only doesnt mean they should be excluded from a discussion.

+1000 thelvynau. I use a controller in both games, and we're not allowed to post anything if we're using one? Now I have a dislike towards steering "fanboys" who think those who uses controllers for driving games are casual players. Well guess what. RL has better physics then both "video games", and that's that.

 

[thelvynau]

this is a physics discussion and as far as I am concerned if you don't use a wheel your opinion means nothing. I have been sim racing a long time and from my own experience I know that a pad in no way simulates driving.

I do love how people believe in excluding people just because they aren't an elite sim racer for a long time.

Its this kind of exclusion that divides a forum who should be coming together for the love of racing games I would encourage anyone wheel users or not to offer their opinion.

You shouldnt expect them to refrain from posting just because they dont own a plastic toy steering wheel.

 

[ch3ng]

GT5 is, IMO, the most fun driver on the market, and I think their physics are worthy of 10/10 if being rated against all things console. 7/10, considering the pc market. Forza...5/10. I love all aformentioned titles though

i just want to quote you:

" can't report on the forza physics with a wheel. "

That says everything. You can't compare a wheel experience with a Controller experience. You made a mistake there.
Thats like...

"Hey i was a Co-driver in a Ferrari. Guys this Car Drives Great."

No Racing Game has a Perfect physics.
I would say...
1. Real Life
2. Some pc Sims
3. Forza/GT5.

I Respect your opinion. And i think everyone can Post if they want.
Some shouldn't take this Thread to serios

 

[hennessey86]

I do love how people believe in excluding people just because they aren't an elite sim racer for a long time.

Its this kind of exclusion that divides a forum who should be coming together for the love of racing games I would encourage anyone wheel users or not to offer their opinion.

You shouldnt expect them to refrain from posting just because they dont own a plastic toy steering wheel.

I think your missing the point, I don't see myself as an elite sim racer. Yes I have spent 500 plus on a rig, but that is because I want the most realistic experience as possible. You cannot judge a games physics engine with a control pad, how can you judge a driving game with an analogue stick. If control pad users want to comment on physics then they need to by a "plastic toy" as you call them.

 

[C_Raccoon23]

I think your missing the point, I don't see myself as an elite sim racer. Yes I have spent 500 plus on a rig, but that is because I want the most realistic experience as possible. You cannot judge a games physics engine with a control pad, how can you judge a driving game with an analogue stick. If control pad users want to comment on physics then they need to by a "plastic toy" as you call them.

Exactly.

I have a DFGT for GT5 and I use a 360 controller for Forza. So where do I get off saying GT5 has more realistic physics if I haven't even given Forza with a wheel a chance yet and instead I'm playing it with something that doesn't even simulate how a car is used? It just doesn't make sense. And it's the reason why I haven't even voted in the poll.

The most I can do is question people who make really broad and vague statements like, "GT5 is realistic and Forza is arcade" because I am curious on why they think in such a manner.

 

[hennessey86]

Exactly.

I have a DFGT for GT5 and I use a 360 controller for Forza. So where do I get off saying GT5 has more realistic physics if I haven't even given Forza with a wheel a chance yet and instead I'm playing it with something that doesn't even simulate how a car is used? It just doesn't make sense. And it's the reason why I haven't even voted in the poll.

The most I can do is question people who make really broad and vague statements like, "GT5 is realistic and Forza is arcade" because I am curious on why they think in such a manner.

Well said sir, exactly the way I feel. I am lucky enough to own a wheel that works on all three major platforms and you get some GT5 players who like your self own logitech wheels and think they can comment on forzas physics even though they play forza with a pad. We need more level headed people like your self

 

[Scaff]

I'm going to make this quite plain and simple.

As long as people are comparing apples to apples (ie controller to controller or wheel to wheel) then they are free to comment on the physics of the titles in question.

While I do have the ability to use a wheel on both, I generally prefer to use a controller due to the convenience side of things (wife, kids, work, etc.), yet I am perfectly capable of experiencing and discussing the physics of both titles.

I'm going to post a quote on this subject that I feel sums things up well:

I'm sorry, but that's kind of a crock. The type of control buffer FM4 uses exists in practically every console racing game ever (GT1-GT5 all included), and is more or less unavoidable. Any PC game designed to support a gamepad will utilize the same thing. I've played the alternative (Live for Speed allows 1-to-1 joystick control), and unless you're a neurosurgeon you tend to shred the front tires while wobbling all over the track.

The steering buffer changes nothing in the tire model -- maximum grip is exactly the same, maximum cornering speeds are exactly the same. And while controller users can take many corners with the joystick pinned, they can never steer any more than that. With the ability to steer "too far," wheel users get the benefit of rotating in some slow corners (particularly in torque-vectoring AWDs like the GT-R) by stomping the throttle and knowing the front wheels will stay pointed where they want.

I don't know why he would complain that wheel users "have to cope" with extra fidelity. They're rewarded with extra fidelity and precision in exchange for spinning a wheel instead of leaning back on the couch and flicking a stick. That "finesse" and muscle exertion is simply what you sign up for when you buy the wheel. Your Xbox should come packaged with a controller already.

One true advantage wheel users get, IMO, is in pedal control. With longer travel on the throttle and actual resistance on the brake pedal, wheel users can enter corners much more confidently with ABS off and exit them with just the right amount of power. If you're "fighting with the countersteer," you've already made a mistake. Even if a corner is best taken with a dab of oversteer at the end, a wheel user can correct it in one motion. All you can do with a controller is nudge the car towards the balance point with spastic flicks and wiggles of the joystick. In higher classes, that wiggling becomes more and more of a handicap.

I don't feel cheated or disadvantaged by playing with a controller. Each device has its advantages and drawbacks, which is why I don't understand this back-and-forth jealousy and indignation.

Raise an issue if someone makes an apples vs. oranges comparison by all means, but do not dismiss controller users out of hand.


Scaff

 

[cuco33]

Add me to the list of playing both games with pad and wheel (CSR wheel + CSR-Elite pedals, also have DFGT which works only on PS). I am actually a little bit faster with a pad but the immersion with a wheel is so much better and much more fun. I'm like Scaff, I can and do play with a pad because of convenience, especially if I'm cycling through games and don't want to pull out the rig. I think anyone can comment on physics of both games by using pads but they need to understand there's big controller buffers at play and the best way, and most accurate representation of the game's sim aspects, is via a proper wheel. That is when the physics start to really shine.

 

[hennessey86]

I'm going to make this quite plain and simple.

As long as people are comparing apples to apples (ie controller to controller or wheel to wheel) then they are free to comment on the physics of the titles in question.

While I do have the ability to use a wheel on both, I generally prefer to use a controller due to the convenience side of things (wife, kids, work, etc.), yet I am perfectly capable of experiencing and discussing the physics of both titles.

I'm going to post a quote on this subject that I feel sums things up well:




Raise an issue if someone makes an apples vs. oranges comparison by all means, but do not dismiss controller users out of hand.


Scaff

I'm not dismissing controler users, but to give GT5 10/10 and then Forza 5/10 while playing one with a wheel and one with a pad really does say alot

 

[Exorcet]

I'm going to make this quite plain and simple.

As long as people are comparing apples to apples (ie controller to controller or wheel to wheel) then they are free to comment on the physics of the titles in question.

Agreed. The physics don't change just because you are using a controller (well, unless they do. We know about the built in driver assist to controllers, but even then they don't come close to blanketing the physics).

Controller or wheel, GT4 understeered like mad, and GT5 still has a very easy to detect artificial grip multiplier for each tire as well as brakes that work fine with nonsensical bias settings.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

...so I shouldn't comment at all in this thread?

Pad users can still without a doubt comment on the physics engine, because said engine is not suddenly swapped out when the game doesn't recognize a wheel is being used. Do I get the final word in subtlety with my steering, throttle, and brake inputs? Nope. But I can still look into the telemetry options in FM4, and I do still see when my tires are exceeding their grip limits, or watch as my car scrubs off speed from turning too sharply. Yes, I know of the steering buffers for the pad.

I have plenty of experience with a wheel for GT5, but as it's now borked, I have the convenient situation of having to compare the two the way the vast majority of their players will - with the default, came-with-the-system controllers. I completely agree that a good wheel setup transforms the game, and heightens the realism, but I absolutely disagree that those who don't use it can offer absolutely no reviews of either game. That is elitism, and I'm not a fan of it.

Your input device may be worth more than the system/game combo you're using it for, but that doesn't suddenly render anybody else's comments "nothing".

 

[TylerGiese]

i just want to quote you:

" can't report on the forza physics with a wheel. "

That says everything. You can't compare a wheel experience with a Controller experience. You made a mistake there.
Thats like...

"Hey i was a Co-driver in a Ferrari. Guys this Car Drives Great."

No Racing Game has a Perfect physics.
I would say...
1. Real Life
2. Some pc Sims
3. Forza/GT5.

I Respect your opinion. And i think everyone can Post if they want.
Some shouldn't take this Thread to serios

Lol sorry for the post guys. Didn't know people were so passionately objected to a clearly stated opinion I thought I remember reading someone stating this thread would be locked for such retaliation, but do as you wish. I own both games, Ive spent considerable time with both, and don't feel the forza formula is my cup of tea.

To the objective post about my thoughts regarding flaws with gt5 physics, and scoring 10/10.. I stated that with the opinion that there wont be a better console/casual/controller friendly experience than gt5 provides this generation..and I'd be shocked if the algorithm ever became better than PD's effort here. My apology for not being essay strength and my fwiw opinions..thanks anyway!

Sorry but I have to ask.

You say this:

and then give it 10/10

Yet at least two other titles on this generation and two on the last (that I can think off right off the top of my head) will punish you (as they should) for doing that.

That you then give one of them

Does really sit logically for me. How does it add up that FM4's physics are worth half of GT5s when its accurately reflecting an issue you have with GT5s physics?

Scaff

Apologies scaff. I appreciate the logic behind your questions and they are valid. As I stated loosely with my last reply, I'm not looking for serious debate of my opinions. However, to clear up your wonder about forza 5/10..I was basing that number, in my head, against gt's 7/10(against all pc, full wheel based physics). If considering forza against the hardware its made for, I'd give it a 7.5-8/10, not bad at all. In hindsight, I might reserve a 9.5 here for gt5, as anything is possible for the future of console. Nevertheless, now I'm just dirtying my already opinion based response, so I will just leave it alone.

I thoroughly enjoy both games. I've spent many hours with both games. I see many areas where forza is a better game than gt5, but to stick to this threads topic, I was only representing my feelings about physics/fun factor of said physics.

 

[Scaff]

Apologies scaff. I appreciate the logic behind your questions and they are valid. As I stated loosely with my last reply, I'm not looking for serious debate of my opinions. However, to clear up your wonder about forza 5/10..I was basing that number, in my head, against gt's 7/10(against all pc, full wheel based physics). If considering forza against the hardware its made for, I'd give it a 7.5-8/10, not bad at all. In hindsight, I might reserve a 9.5 here for gt5, as anything is possible for the future of console. Nevertheless, now I'm just dirtying my already opinion based response, so I will just leave it alone.

I thoroughly enjoy both games. I've spent many hours with both games. I see many areas where forza is a better game than gt5, but to stick to this threads topic, I was only representing my feelings about physics/fun factor of said physics.

Many thanks for the clarification and never worry about having an opinion, that is after all why we are here at GT Planet.

Personally I would pretty much reverse the scores, on a all platform level 7/10 would be fair for FM4 and a 5/10 for GT5 would do the job for me. GT5 just has too many of the basics either wrong or missing for me to go any higher than that.


Scaff

 

[TylerGiese]

+1000 thelvynau. I use a controller in both games, and we're not allowed to post anything if we're using one? Now I have a dislike towards steering "fanboys" who think those who uses controllers for driving games are casual players. Well guess what. RL has better physics then both "video games", and that's that.

Lol amen, brotha! nothing beats RL! Ive got a few spare moments for this lunch break so why not dip into this one a bit..

I have no problem with joysticks at all. Take away the physicality, and racing physics come down to how well you can connect with what the vehicle should be doing, in union to the directed input of the device (steering mechanism/throttle/components)

Mentally, that all sums up to real life experience with tracks and cars, and how well someone understands the tire physics of the vehicle they're driving. In other words, it all goes back to mental state, and loose opinions of how one guy feels it should respond versus another guy. How so, you ask? Well, we can never really know if that Honda civic, running comfort sorts, are an accurate representation of the toyo proxy's he races with in real life? NO! And this is only one, of thousands of amalgamated possibilities unavailable to algorithm intelligence.

Don't, for one second, think that a "wheel fanboy" has much more, if any more of a clue than anyone else on this forum, when it comes to logic and reasoning with real world simulation. They may have more bits of information to direct their theoretical values I.e. bits in relation to rotational value (900 degrees typically), but all that opens up to is a broader spectrum of hypothetical calculation, therefore giving the user a heightened chance of error. This all goes to say that we understand the algorithm of said game to begin with. If I had to guess, I'd speculate these console games do not take full advantage of the wheel hardware most of us are using. Thus making our wheels only sloppy representations of the hard code, embedded into the physics model.

What's this all add up to? Interpretative opinion of experience, in relation to real life. I could have stated it there and left the rest at the door, but it'd be a shame if the next wheel superior came in and sharted anymore "facts" over these opinions. The only advantage one might argue a wheel user has over a precise controller user in these games, is fun factor..if that's your sort of seats of the pants kind of thing..and for me, it is.

Regards,

Tyler

Add me to the list of playing both games with pad and wheel (CSR wheel + CSR-Elite pedals, also have DFGT which works only on PS). I am actually a little bit faster with a pad but the immersion with a wheel is so much better and much more fun. I'm like Scaff, I can and do play with a pad because of convenience, especially if I'm cycling through games and don't want to pull out the rig. I think anyone can comment on physics of both games by using pads but they need to understand there's big controller buffers at play and the best way, and most accurate representation of the game's sim aspects, is via a proper wheel. That is when the physics start to really shine.

Respectfully stated. However, the only "buffer" a controller is allowing for is corrected in the "advanced" options mode of the controller options on fm4. Dead zone settings 0% and 100% outward. I hate to come off pretentious, but i want to believe that the physics code doesn't change to allow buffers when recognizing different input devices, other than default, adjustable sliders, found in that advanced options tab. I race forza with ZERO buffers, clutch, no driving lines. None of the "buffers". That said, the only buffer to speak of is heel toe downshifting, required for the h-pattern, which is accomplished with much less effort using multiple fingers, than multiple feet/footwork. Take care

Respectfully stated. However, the only "buffer" a controller is allowing for is corrected in the "advanced" options mode of the controller options on fm4. Dead zone settings 0% and 100% outward. I hate to come off pretentious, but i want to believe that the physics code doesn't change to allow buffers when recognizing different input devices, other than default, adjustable sliders, found in that advanced options tab. I race forza with ZERO buffers, clutch, no driving lines. None of the "buffers". That said, the only buffer to speak of is heel toe downshifting, required for the h-pattern, which is accomplished with much less effort using multiple fingers, than multiple feet/footwork. Take care

P.s. I'm jealous of that setup! If I were you, I'd build myself a separate space dedicated for the rig, so I wouldn't have to always be shuffling it around. I used to do that with my setup, but since making a dedicated spot, it inspires so much more use!

I'm not dismissing controler users, but to give GT5 10/10 and then Forza 5/10 while playing one with a wheel and one with a pad really does say alot

See my reply to scaff, for clarification of those misinterpretations. Sorry for the confusion!

 

[Terronium-12]

Funny how you say this:

I'm not dismissing controler users, but to give GT5 10/10 and then Forza 5/10 while playing one with a wheel and one with a pad really does say alot

When you said this earlier:

This is a physics discussion and as far as I am concerned if you don't use a wheel your opinion means nothing. I have been sim racing a long time and from my own experience I know that a pad in no way simulates driving. More to the point, this guy has given Forza 4 5/10 in the physics department and you don't think the fact that he played with a pad had anything to do with that.

Now, that can only be taken one way and that way is unless you use a wheel your opinion is worth naught, which in turn means you're dismissing controller users. I use a wheel and a controller for GT5, yet I can still tell you that I prefer Forza 4 over GT5 even with that additional level of precision.

 

[ParkourVeyron]

@TylerGiese: The multi-quote button.

Use it.

 

[TylerGiese]

@TylerGiese: The multi-quote button.

Use it.

New to the app and don't discuss on the forum often. I will figure it out and make use. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[thelvynau]

Funny how you say this:

When you said this earlier:

Now, that can only be taken one way and that way is unless you use a wheel your opinion is worth naught, which in turn means you're dismissing controller users. I use a wheel and a controller for GT5, yet I can still tell you that I prefer Forza 4 over GT5 even with that additional level of precision.

Exactly I was commenting on how controller users shouldnt be excluded from a discussion.

From what I see from the thread title it says forza vs gt5 physics and I think physics while using a controller is included in that comparison.

 

[Mac K]

Exactly I was commenting on how controller users shouldnt be excluded from a discussion.

From what I see from the thread title it says forza vs gt5 physics and I think physics while using a controller is included in that comparison.

Aye, but isn't this thread about which of the two has the more realistic physics? In order to fully determine that, wouldn't it be recommended that you use a wheel since last time I checked, real cars aren't driven with controllers. Just food for thought, not trying to exclude controllers users. I can't really debate on this though as I've never played Forza, so I can't form an opinion until I do.

 

[thelvynau]

Aye, but isn't this thread about which of the two has the more realistic physics? In order to fully determine that, wouldn't it be recommended that you use a wheel since last time I checked, real cars aren't driven with controllers. Just food for thought, not trying to exclude controllers users. I can't really debate on this though as I've never played Forza, so I can't form an opinion until I do.

Yes to find out fully you would probably need a wheel but why should that exclude comparing physics between controllers?

to compare something like this I feel you would need to compare them with both wheels and controllers as scaff said wheel vs wheel controller vs controller because both games allow the use of both so why not compare both.

Sorry but I dont believe anyone should be excluded from this discussion unless they havent played both of course.

 

[Terronium-12]

You don't need a wheel to determine which of the two feels better to you, that's down to intuition; nothing more and nothing less.

Real cars can't be rewound either, nor do they lose their engine specified output, only for it to be reacquired by way of it being "broken in". Do you see the point being made? It's all moot.

 

[Mac K]

Yes to find out fully you would probably need a wheel but why should that exclude comparing physics between controllers?

to compare something like this I feel you would need to compare them with both wheels and controllers as scaff said wheel vs wheel controller vs controller because both games allow the use of both so why not compare both.

Sorry but I dont believe anyone should be excluded from this discussion unless they havent played both of course.

That's a fair point, but even if you did do a controller vs controller comparison, could you really ultimately say which has the most realistic physics by mashing buttons and turning some sticks? Again, no offense to controller users, but until we start driving and racing real cars with controllers, then I think a wheel vs wheel comparison would yield much more accurate results. Again, just something to think about.

 

[thelvynau]

That's a fair point, but even if you did do a controller vs controller comparison, could you really ultimately say which has the most realistic physics by mashing buttons and turning some sticks? Again, no offense to controller users, but until we start driving and racing real cars with controllers, then I think a wheel vs wheel comparison would yield much more accurate results. Again, just something to think about.

Agreed wheels are more realistic but should the fact someone uses a controller exclude them from discussing? I think not.

 

[Mac K]

You don't need a wheel to determine which of the two feels better to you, that's down to intuition; nothing more and nothing less.

Real cars can't be rewound either, nor do they lose their engine specified output, only for it to be reacquired by way of it being "broken in". Do you see the point being made? It's all moot.

Maybe I'm missing the point, but isn't the whole point of this debate to determine which has the most realistic physics? Not which you prefer? Or is it the general rule of thumb that you have to have played both to determine which you prefer?

 

[thelvynau]

Maybe I'm missing the point, but isn't the whole point of this debate to determine which has the most realistic physics? Not which you prefer? Or is it the general rule of thumb that you have to have played both to determine which you prefer?

Ok how do we determine what input to use? A controller? A wheel sitting on your lap? Or a expensive gaming rig? if its just the gaming rig that allows us to discuss here then not many people would be posting.

 

[Terronium-12]

Maybe I'm missing the point, but isn't the whole point of this debate to determine which has the most realistic physics? Not which you prefer? Or is it the general rule of thumb that you have to have played both to determine which you prefer?

Obviously it'd be best if you played both, otherwise it'd be nothing but hearsay and nonsense.

Which there is already too much of.

 

[Scaff]

@TylerGiese: The multi-quote button.

Use it.

Politeness - please use it

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I think a lot of people seem to be mixing up input devices and the physics themselves. The physics engine is the same regardless of input device - the user's inputs are interpreted differently depending on it - so yes, a controller user is still experiencing the same physics engine as a wheel user.

I can tell you I experience torque steer quite clearly with "just" a controller in FM4. I can also watch a Cobra struggle to launch in a perfectly straight line on a flat surface, something I don't have to worry about in GT5, since no steering correction is ever needed for things like the Route X testing. If anything, a wheel would get in the way of testing these sorts of launch characteristics between the games, to ensure no steering input was used.

If we want to talk about realism, GT5's got issues literally right off the starting line.

 

[Spagetti69]

Luckily most GT races are rolling starts I think.