Forza 4 vs GT5 physics (read the first post before contributing)

[Scaff]

I found one issue with the OP. He used tire racks info and the ratings for the tires, to make his determination. Just because two tires have the same tread wear/rating, does not make them equal, many times you have a different brand which is much better than the other. So it's hard to make a proper analysis from that. Like I said, without getting into the code, it's hard to know exactly what they did, or where they took short cuts.

A valid point, however it doesn't change the results showing identical grades of tyres on wildly different cars have the same lateral g figure.

A 'Vette and a MINI on the same grade of tyre (in game) should not have the same level of grip, it strongly indicates that lateral grip is principally determined by tyre grade and little else, which certainly should not be the case.


Oh I also remembered this video (again not mine):



Which I think makes quite a case for FM4 modelling suspension travel, camber changes, tyre deformation and most certainly not cornering flat and with no suspension activity. Is it perfect, of course its not, but its also nothing like you have made it out to be and in my opinion (and from my own comparisons) does a damn site better job than GT5 does.

One more for luck (and I like this one)




Scaff

 

[Deadpool]

How much time have you spent with FM4? The flat cornering, which was a trait of FM to FM3 is most certainly not in FM4 at all. Take a look at the following:

Would you explain exactly what is not working in regard to the suspension and how they could be described as flat cornering?

If either title has an issue with incorrect suspension movement now its GT5 (not my video):

Amusing thing is your video actually proved me right. Very little chassis movement in the FM4 clip, and a lot in the GT5 clip. That was my point, yes the suspension is moving in FM4 but it's affect on the chassis/body is tiny compared to what it should be.

And I've spent enough time with all of the Forza's to take note of the flat cornering. It was really bad in the past 3, but they did make a dramatic improvement with 4 relative to the others. The cars still float way too much though.

Are you able to supply even a single source to back up the claim that PD have proper tyre modelling, because current all evidence points to the exact opposite.

I said "for all we know" which means I have nothing to back that up but that we also have no 100% confirmation that they didn't. It also wasn't a claim that they had, more of a "do we know they haven't?"

No the countersteer in GT5 is not like a real car, neither are exactly like a real car in that regard at all, however FM4 (and the 4 is important) gets a lot closer.

Scaff

Have you driven on a real track..... because it sounds like you haven't. FM4 counter steer is NOTHING like a real car. You are right though about neither being "exactly" like a real car, but GT5 is miles closer.

I totally disagree in regard to FM4 and highspeed correction, a small degree of yaw you can correct, but once it goes past a small degree your lost even at lower speeds.

Weird, I have no issue at all with any corrections. Kinda a walk in the park actually. I rarely don't save a slide in FM4, and I can't say the same for GT5. Oh and I've been sideways in Eau Rouge in a 73 RS in the rain...... so I know a little something about counter steer.

All testing to date shows zero torque steer from a standing start in GT5, if your able to demonstrate it I would be very interested.

Like I said, it's very small but it's there. It's def not enough by any means, no argument there. But FM4's tq steer is grossly exaggerated.

 

[HighSeasHoMastr]

Oh and I've been sideways in Eau Rouge in a 73 RS in the rain...... so I know a little something about counter steer.

Like I said, it's very small but it's there.

RS replica or real RS?

I think some proof on the second claim is warranted also, since Scarf has repeatedly and thoroughly proven that there is none whatsoever in GT5.

 

[Scaff]

Amusing thing is your video actually proved me right. Very little chassis movement in the FM4 clip, and a lot in the GT5 clip. That was my point, yes the suspension is moving in FM4 but it's affect on the chassis/body is tiny compared to what it should be.

And I've spent enough time with all of the Forza's to take note of the flat cornering. It was really bad in the past 3, but they did make a dramatic improvement with 4 relative to the others. The cars still float way too much though.

We must be looking at very different videos then, in particular the damping on the Jensen in GT5 is way off being massively overdamped, the real car clearly rocks from underdamped springs after the handbrake turn, with the GT5 car settling almost instantly.

I said "for all we know" which means I have nothing to back that up but that we also have no 100% confirmation that they didn't. It also wasn't a claim that they had, more of a "do we know they haven't?"

Based on all the evidence currently available we have nothing pointing towards it at all.

Have you driven on a real track..... because it sounds like you haven't. FM4 counter steer is NOTHING like a real car. You are right though about neither being "exactly" like a real car, but GT5 is miles closer.

Oh I have - quite a bit.

The tyre model in GT5 particularly for road based tyres has almost zero progression from grip to loss, which as well as being an indicator of a basic tyre model also contributes to the overly severe snap countersteer.

Is recovery too easy in FM4, yes it is a little as long as the yaw angle is small. However GT5 allows almost not margin for error in regard to correction even at lower speeds and at smaller yaw rates. A small rate of yaw does not spell a strong chance of control loss even at moderate speeds, yet that can often be the case in GT5. The two titles do head in different directions in this regard, but I can't agree that GT5 is miles closer at all.


Scaff

 

[Deadpool]

A valid point, however it doesn't change the results showing identical grades of tyres on wildly different cars have the same lateral g figure.

A 'Vette and a MINI on the same grade of tyre (in game) should not have the same level of grip, it strongly indicates that lateral grip is principally determined by tyre grade and little else, which certainly should not be the case.

Lateral grip in which regard? Skidpad? This depends on many factors actually. Which Vette? Because a Mini Cooper S pulls nearly .9G on crappy run softs.

Now if both cars are on slicks and they pull the exact same number, probably a issue. But let's say you put both on CS, the Mini should be able to pull a higher G as the Vette would have a problem with the rear tires/power. Many factors to consider here. I just want you to understand that your conclusion may be right, I don't know. I'm only asking questions about how you came to the conclusion.

Which I think makes quite a case for FM4 modelling suspension travel, camber changes, tyre deformation and most certainly not cornering flat and with no suspension activity. Is it perfect, of course its not, but its also nothing like you have made it out to be and in my opinion (and from my own comparisons) does a damn site better job than GT5 does.

What I meant was the suspensions affect on the chassis. In FM4 it's very little, much less than it should be though some cars are a bit better. The corner you posted is also on the very extreme end, for most steady corners I don't find nearly any body movement, same for bumps on a straight.

 

[Terronium-12]

Why not address the "floaty" sensation..... it's there.

One, because referring to it as "floaty" is, to me, absolutely ridiculous. If by that you actually mean you don't feel connected to the road, then how am I to address something that you feel? I'll tell you one thing though: FM4 feels far better than GT5 does.

And with the no apparent movement it's miniscule at best. Take it around the Ring and the chassis movement is barely there. I could post endless videos showing this along with the "floaty" physics engine.

The physics model in F4 just is not realistic at all.

I could also post videos that show the exact opposite of yours, in fact, one has already been posted (one I was originally going to present). And what about the physics model is not realistic at all compared to GT5?

The torque steer is there, it's just very light. F4 is too aggressive though with it's torque steer.

I can tell you right now: no. Try taking the F10, the X1, the F2007, or the 787B, any high-powered, lightweight vehicle and do a full throttle launch and tell me if the vehicle veers off counter to a straight-ahead direction under it's own power. I bet you it won't; in fact, I know they won't.

When did I say impossible to recover? I said "difficult" to recover, which is how it is in the real world at 100mph+. With GT5 I can recover most slides, but I have to be very precise with my counter steer, if I over correct at high speed the car will snap..... just like in real life. With F4, I can easily get cars into slides at high speed and there is no drama at all, way too simple to correct, VERY forgiving. Go take a 911 and get sideways at 100+ and let me know how it turns out for you.

Exactly how much time have you spent with FM4? If you over correct at high speeds in, say, the 599 GT0 you will end up spinning repeatedly. And as I've stated before: both games have lower grip thresholds than in real life.

 

[Deadpool]

RS replica or real RS?

I think some proof on the second claim is warranted also, since Scarf has repeatedly and thoroughly proven that there is none whatsoever in GT5.

RS replica, I would feel a little apprehensive pushing a real one as hard as I was haha.

What proof has he posted that there is none? Whenever I do a standing start with high power I get very minimal tq steer. Maybe most don't notice it because they use controllers, but with a wheel I can feel it.

Again, like I said before, the TQ steer in GT5 is not accurate at all, way way too little if not nearly non existent. FM4 on the other hand grossly exaggerates it. It's a wash IMO as neither of them did it properly.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Yes on both counts. That's another thing, this is another video is a long line of community interactions from T10. They have the weekly blogs going on and have uploaded several videos like that one throughout development of each game. Again, something for PD to take note of.

Heh, that's a drop in the bucket - without going too far off-topic, you should see some of the community interaction they've provided. Game with Devs nights let you actually race against T10 members, there's weekly Photo competitions with in-game prizes, and they even provided us over at ForzaPlanet with some pre-release DLC codes to give away for each month

Why not address the "floaty" sensation..... it's there. And with the no apparent movement it's miniscule at best. Take it around the Ring and the chassis movement is barely there. I could post endless videos showing this along with the "floaty" physics engine.

Scaff's video shows plenty of movement, both longitudinally and laterally, of the Cobra's suspension.

I've always found, particularly in old cars, GT5 exaggerates the lateral movement of the suspension, under braking. Otherwise though, I have little qualms with that aspect of the game.

The torque steer is there, it's just very light. F4 is too aggressive though with it's torque steer.

Do me a favour. Go launch a car at SSRX, with full throttle. No aids. Preferably the acceleration test, since it's shorter. Restart, and do it again. And one more time. Are all of your ghosts in an identical, perfectly straight line?

Ah.

When did I say impossible to recover? I said "difficult" to recover, which is how it is in the real world at 100mph+. With GT5 I can recover most slides, but I have to be very precise with my counter steer, if I over correct at high speed the car will snap..... just like in real life. With F4, I can easily get cars into slides at high speed and there is no drama at all, way too simple to correct, VERY forgiving. Go take a 911 and get sideways at 100+ and let me know how it turns out for you.

Yet I'm the opposite - despite me now playing far more FM4 on a regular basis than GT5 these days, I loaded up the latter two days ago to wrap up the Time Trial and Drift Trial Seasonals. I had no problems at all golding the DT, but more pertinently, had absolutely no problems holding the car at any angle I chose. I still can't consistently do that in FM4 (unless I buy some drifter's tune off the SF ).

The other interesting side of that is that exceeding the rear tires' grip while sliding seems to have less of an impact on your lap times in GT5.

Have you driven on a real track..... because it sounds like you haven't. FM4 counter steer is NOTHING like a real car. You are right though about neither being "exactly" like a real car, but GT5 is miles closer.

Oh no.

(NINJA-EDIT) Curses, you all talk too fast!

 

[Deadpool]

One, because referring to it as "floaty" is, to me, absolutely ridiculous. If by that you actually mean you don't feel connected to the road, then how am I to address something that you feel? I'll tell you one thing though: FM4 feels far better than GT5 does.

I guess we will agree to disagree.

I could also post videos that show the exact opposite of yours, in fact, one has already been posted (one I was originally going to present). And what about the physics model is not realistic at all compared to GT5?

I've already said how it's not realistic. The fact that it's way way way too simple to save a slide. It's too arcadish.

I can tell you right now: no. Try taking the F10, the X1, the F2007, or the 787B, any high-powered, lightweight vehicle and do a full throttle launch and tell me if the vehicle veers off counter to a straight-ahead direction under it's own power. I bet you it won't; in fact, I know they won't.

I already said, you can barely feel it in the wheel and that it's not accurate. BUT FM4's is not realistic either. How do you explain that eh. Give me a 787B in real life and launch it...... your not going to find this ridiculous tq steer that you have in FM4, it's going to grip and go due to it's massive/soft tires.

Exactly how much time have you spent with FM4? If you over correct at high speeds in, say, the 599 GT0 you will end up spinning repeatedly. And as I've stated before: both games have lower grip thresholds than in real life.

I've played it on and off, same with GT5. It's more of when I can find the time to sit down and play. It's much easier to over correct in GT5 than FM4.

Scaff's video shows plenty of movement, both longitudinally and laterally, of the Cobra's suspension.

I've always found, particularly in old cars, GT5 exaggerates the lateral movement of the suspension, under braking. Otherwise though, I have little qualms with that aspect of the game.

Disagree, found the Cobra video to be almost no movement relative to what it should be.

Do me a favour. Go launch a car at SSRX, with full throttle. No aids. Preferably the acceleration test, since it's shorter. Restart, and do it again. And one more time. Are all of your ghosts in an identical, perfectly straight line?

Ah.

I already stated it was minimal and can barely be felt in the wheel let alone seen. But it's amusing how ALL of you are ignoring the part where FM4 exaggerates tq steer, it's completely ridiculous how much it has.

Yet I'm the opposite - despite me now playing far more FM4 on a regular basis than GT5 these days, I loaded up the latter two days ago to wrap up the Time Trial and Drift Trial Seasonals. I had no problems at all golding the DT, but more pertinently, had absolutely no problems holding the car at any angle I chose. I still can't consistently do that in FM4 (unless I buy some drifter's tune off the SF ).

The other interesting side of that is that exceeding the rear tires' grip while sliding seems to have less of an impact on your lap times in GT5.

I'm the exact opposite.

Oh no.

(NINJA-EDIT) Curses, you all talk too fast!

??

 

[Terronium-12]

I've already said how it's not realistic. The fact that it's way way way too simple to save a slide. It's too arcadish.

And there's that throwaway vernacular again: "arcadish". Is it also "arcadish" how easy it is to hold a slide in GT5? Is it also "arcadish" that bumps don't seem to unsettle the car at all in GT5, at least in my playings?

I already said, you can barely feel it in the wheel and that it's not accurate. BUT FM4's is not realistic either. How do you explain that eh. Give me a 787B in real life and launch it...... your not going to find this ridiculous tq steer that you have in FM4, it's going to grip and go due to it's massive/soft tires.

On cold tires? No, it's either going to swerve until there's enough grip, or it's just going to spin. I'm also unsure what's so ridiculous about it.

I've played it on and off, same with GT5. It's more of when I can find the time to sit down and play. It's much easier to over correct in GT5 than FM4.

Didn't you say the exact opposite earlier on?

Also, stop double posting.

 

[Samus]

In any very high powered RWD car if you take your hands off the wheel and plant the throttle to the floor it's not going to go in a straight line, it's more than likely going to spin. In GT5 that doesn't happen, you can do a full throttle start with no hands on the wheel and it'll drive off straight and true, every time.

 

[Spagetti69]

To the Guy harping on about Forzas suspension having nothing to do with the Chassis.

Try stiffening ARBs and springs and hit a kerb in both titles.

Forza you may well end up rolling the car.
Gt you may also. Unless your online of course where the suspension calculations are overruled by the hand of Kaz and co.

Adding Floaty to my Grippy and slippy vocabulary too.

 

[BMWM52012]

I think its amazing to look at both games and think how far the industry has come. We are to the point where we are now criticizing games for small differences from reality. We've come from arcade games like pole position to this. I would have to say, for the average non-rich person. Both are probably some of the closest simulations you can get to driving real supercars and racecars.

 

[Samus]

To the Guy harping on about Forzas suspension having nothing to do with the Chassis.

Try stiffening ARBs and springs and hit a kerb in both titles.

Forza you may well end up rolling the car.
Gt you may also. Unless your online of course where the suspension calculations are overruled by the hand of Kaz and co.

Adding Floaty to my Grippy and slippy vocabulary too.

This is something overlooked by many when talking about GT5 and physics. There are two physics models in the game, one for offline and one for online. They obviously can't both be correct so which is 'better'? Some say the online physics are but then you have the issue you mention, not being able to roll a car online.

 

[Scaff]

Lateral grip in which regard? Skidpad? This depends on many factors actually. Which Vette? Because a Mini Cooper S pulls nearly .9G on crappy run softs.

On a 300 ft pan a Cooper pulls between 0.84 and 0.85 not close to 0.9g.

However for comparison lets take an '05 Cooper S and an '04 Z06 (C5), under what conditions would you expect them to be pulling the same lat-g if they had identical rubber fitted?

Now if both cars are on slicks and they pull the exact same number, probably a issue. But let's say you put both on CS, the Mini should be able to pull a higher G as the Vette would have a problem with the rear tires/power. Many factors to consider here. I just want you to understand that your conclusion may be right, I don't know. I'm only asking questions about how you came to the conclusion.

The Vette still has a lower CoG and better weight distribution and a result most likely a better PMI, its also running significantly wider rubber. The Cooper S is a fine car, but its not even the best in its own class let alone being a match for a modern vette on just about any corner.

What I meant was the suspensions affect on the chassis. In FM4 it's very little, much less than it should be though some cars are a bit better. The corner you posted is also on the very extreme end, for most steady corners I don't find nearly any body movement, same for bumps on a straight.

I totally disagree and am yet to see GT5 do any better at all, the Jensen clip clearly shows the very issue you are describing with GT5.

I already said, you can barely feel it in the wheel and that it's not accurate. BUT FM4's is not realistic either. How do you explain that eh. Give me a 787B in real life and launch it...... your not going to find this ridiculous tq steer that you have in FM4, it's going to grip and go due to it's massive/soft tires.

What you feel in GT5 is rumble and its not a product of torque steer being modelled.

Switch to a controller to remove any influence rumble may have, don't touch the steering and do a full throttle launch. Let me know how much any RWD car in GT5 steps out when you do.

I've played it on and off, same with GT5. It's more of when I can find the time to sit down and play. It's much easier to over correct in GT5 than FM4.

Change that it it too easy to overcorrect in GT5 and I would agree.

Disagree, found the Cobra video to be almost no movement relative to what it should be.

Having passengered in both an original and a continuation I would disagree with that, if any version of the Cobra bears no resemblance to the real car its GT5's.

I already stated it was minimal and can barely be felt in the wheel let alone seen. But it's amusing how ALL of you are ignoring the part where FM4 exaggerates tq steer, it's completely ridiculous how much it has.

Not ignored, simply disagree.



Scaff

 

[cuco33]

"Floaty physics" is something that isn't there in FM4. To a degree this magical carpet ride was there in previous Forza games as it felt a bit sterile in the drive but for some reason FM4 is still getting dubbed this 'hovering' aspect, particularly from GT fans who have not played FM4 much, if at all. You only need to drive on Nurburgring GP with any car to see that it's not there (outside of actually playing the Forza games and seeing how FM4 doesn't have it). On certain straights of NurbGP track the car bogs up and down due to the bumpiness of the track and it has enough tight corners to really 'feel' the car's weight shift about.

 

[Deadpool]

"Floaty physics" is something that isn't there in FM4. To a degree this magical carpet ride was there in previous Forza games as it felt a bit sterile in the drive but for some reason FM4 is still getting dubbed this 'hovering' aspect, particularly from GT fans who have not played FM4 much, if at all. You only need to drive on Nurburgring GP with any car to see that it's not there (outside of actually playing the Forza games and seeing how FM4 doesn't have it). On certain straights of NurbGP track the car bogs up and down due to the bumpiness of the track and it has enough tight corners to really 'feel' the car's weight shift about.

The "floaty" is still there. And I'm not the only one who feels it. The cars simply do not sit/stick to the road as they should.

 

[Deadpool]

On a 300 ft pan a Cooper pulls between 0.84 and 0.85 not close to 0.9g.

However for comparison lets take an '05 Cooper S and an '04 Z06 (C5), under what conditions would you expect them to be pulling the same lat-g if they had identical rubber fitted?

They have pulled .87+ actually. And this is on run flats. Put the Cooper on better rubber and it will pull close to .95+. For the comparison, I would think putting both cars on low grip tires would benefit the cooper as it won't be struggling to apply it's power like the vette. With sticky rubber the Vette of course will pull higher numbers.

The Vette still has a lower CoG and better weight distribution and a result most likely a better PMI, its also running significantly wider rubber. The Cooper S is a fine car, but its not even the best in its own class let alone being a match for a modern vette on just about any corner.

The COG is not that different between the two, and the Mini is extremely nimble. The mini is also 400lbs lighter than the Vette. All things to consider.

What you feel in GT5 is rumble and its not a product of torque steer being modelled.

This very well could be it. But even if it weren't, it's safe to say we both agree that the TQ steer is not realistic in GT5

Change that it it too easy to overcorrect in GT5 and I would agree.

At times it can be a little too easy to overcorrect, I would agree here. But I'll take that over F4's non existent overcorrection.

Having passengered in both an original and a continuation I would disagree with that, if any version of the Cobra bears no resemblance to the real car its GT5's.

Disagree

Not ignored, simply disagree.

Do you have any first hand experience to go by?

I've got seat time in some extremely powerful cars. Z06's, GT3 RS, GT2RS, F430's and have a 900hp 934.5. Guess what, none of them have the ridiculous TQ steer that F4 has, not even close. The traction off the line in F4 is pathetically unrealistic.

While the lack of TQ steer in GT5 is unrealistic, the grip is much closer to real life than F4.

 

[HighSeasHoMastr]

.....and have a 900hp 934.5.

What year? And what chassis number is it? And who built the engine for you?

I would do unspeakable things for pics too. The 934.5 is one of my top 5 favorite cars of all time. Please let me see yours 👍

 

[Spagetti69]

Hey I just made a jagermeister livery for one of those.
Would love to see your pics. Nice one.
Look forward to it.

 

[Deadpool]

Hey I just made a jagermeister livery for one of those.
Would love to see your pics. Nice one.
Look forward to it.

What year? And what chassis number is it? And who built the engine for you?

I would do unspeakable things for pics too. The 934.5 is one of my top 5 favorite cars of all time. Please let me see yours 👍

It's a 76 934.5, it was built by our shop/partner Willi Kauhsen. I can't remember the chassis number though. And Porsche considers it to be the fastest 934.5 in the world right now. We've been banned from numerous historic series due to being "too fast" as we were beating 935's haha. It's dialed in.

Decided it would be easier just to post a link to my thread over on nasioc, rather than flood this thread with pictures. Unless you want me to lol.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2218811&highlight=porsche+934+5

 

[Scaff]

They have pulled .87+ actually. And this is on run flats. Put the Cooper on better rubber and it will pull close to .95+. For the comparison, I would think putting both cars on low grip tires would benefit the cooper as it won't be struggling to apply it's power like the vette. With sticky rubber the Vette of course will pull higher numbers.

That's not however the point I was discussing, how do you think the lat-g figures for both would compare if they were on identical compounds.

The COG is not that different between the two, and the Mini is extremely nimble. The mini is also 400lbs lighter than the Vette. All things to consider.

So the MINI despite being over 10% taller that the Z06, having a transverse FWD wet sumped engine (all of which as you know mean a higher engine location) 63/37 weight distribution is going to have a COG that's 'not that different' to a Z06.

Sorry but unless Chevy seriously messed up the engine and drive-train location of the Z06 I'm not convinced by that at all.

This very well could be it. But even if it weren't, it's safe to say we both agree that the TQ steer is not realistic in GT5

Not quite, TQ steer is not realistic in GT5 because (off the line) its not present.

At times it can be a little too easy to overcorrect, I would agree here. But I'll take that over F4's non existent overcorrection.

So now FM4 has non existent overcorrection?

Do you have any first hand experience to go by?
I've got seat time in some extremely powerful cars. Z06's, GT3 RS, GT2RS, F430's and have a 900hp 934.5. Guess what, none of them have the ridiculous TQ steer that F4 has, not even close. The traction off the line in F4 is pathetically unrealistic.

Last thing first, FM4s traction off the line is not 100% realistic, but if you are comparing it to GT5 then its a lot closer to real. GT5 doesn't model any form of torque steer off the line and the most effective method of launching is still to just floor the throttle. Tyres don't hook-up in an even close to realistic manner. GT5 does a lot right,launching off the line most certainly is not one of them.

Now cars, Snap on the GT3 RS and GT2RS, add in a Radical SR3, all manner of Caterhams, Tigers and a Dutton, throw in a 500bhp RX-7, R33 and R34 (stock and modified) Clio V6 Trophy series car.

Not a complete list, but yes I do know what a powerful RWD car (and FWD) feels like, and off the line FM4 is not perfect, but its certainly a lot more accurate that GT5 is.

While the lack of TQ steer in GT5 is unrealistic, the grip is much closer to real life than F4.

In what way, could you define some examples so that others could actually give them a go.

It's a 76 934.5, it was built by our shop/partner Willi Kauhsen. I can't remember the chassis number though. And Porsche considers it to be the fastest 934.5 in the world right now. We've been banned from numerous historic series due to being "too fast" as we were beating 935's haha. It's dialed in.

Decided it would be easier just to post a link to my thread over on nasioc, rather than flood this thread with pictures. Unless you want me to lol.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2218811&highlight=porsche+934+5

The sites currently down, so you may want to start a new thread (in the Automotive sub-forums) and link to that.

Scaff

 

[WhiteLight92]

I've played both and I prefer e feel of GT5. The cars feel way too heavy in Forza for example, I have an 800Kg lotus Elise in both games, with identical specs, and they both feel completely different. I'm not saying either is better than the other, one would expect the Forza would be a better game simply because it came out a lot later than GT5, but I really do prefer GT5

 

[thelvynau]

I still think the original thought on torque steer is correct non existant in gt5 but very apparent in forza 4.

 

[Spagetti69]

I've played both and I prefer e feel of GT5. The cars feel way too heavy in Forza for example, I have an 800Kg lotus Elise in both games, with identical specs, and they both feel completely different. I'm not saying either is better than the other, one would expect the Forza would be a better game simply because it came out a lot later than GT5, but I really do prefer GT5

Interesting you say it feels too heavy. Some have said recently it feels floaty, therefor suggesting too light.

I wonder who's right.

Nice car too dead pool.

 

[Deadpool]

That's not however the point I was discussing, how do you think the lat-g figures for both would compare if they were on identical compounds.

I already commented on that. Good/sticky rubber def the vette. Poor rubber, might be close. This is highly speculative though.

So the MINI despite being over 10% taller that the Z06, having a transverse FWD wet sumped engine (all of which as you know mean a higher engine location) 63/37 weight distribution is going to have a COG that's 'not that different' to a Z06.

Sorry but unless Chevy seriously messed up the engine and drive-train location of the Z06 I'm not convinced by that at all.

Got any facts to go with it? I haven't seen the COG for both, so I'm only assuming they are close based on experience with both cars. Remember, 400lbs is huge.

Not quite, TQ steer is not realistic in GT5 because (off the line) its not present.

Now you're splitting hairs.

So now FM4 has non existent overcorrection?

Now? I've been staring that from the start.

Last thing first, FM4s traction off the line is not 100% realistic, but if you are comparing it to GT5 then its a lot closer to real. GT5 doesn't model any form of torque steer off the line and the most effective method of launching is still to just floor the throttle. Tyres don't hook-up in an even close to realistic manner. GT5 does a lot right,launching off the line most certainly is not one of them.

Flooring the throttle is not the most effective for the start in GT5. it's slower (wheelspin) and causes excess tire wear.

I don't think either F4 or GT5 do launching right. One is simplified but with the relative grip being close (GT5) the other has TQ steer but the wheelspin is outlandish.

Now cars, Snap on the GT3 RS and GT2RS, add in a Radical SR3, all manner of Caterhams, Tigers and a Dutton, throw in a 500bhp RX-7, R33 and R34 (stock and modified) Clio V6 Trophy series car.

Not a complete list, but yes I do know what a powerful RWD car (and FWD) feels like, and off the line FM4 is not perfect, but its certainly a lot more accurate that GT5 is.

Completely disagree here.

In what way, could you define some examples so that others could actually give them a go.

I already said this was in regards to off the line traction, but it also applies to grip in all regards actually.

There is too much grip, but at the same time when you lose grip it's too easy to control.

The sites currently down, so you may want to start a new thread (in the Automotive sub-forums) and link to that.

Hmmm wasn't down for others or myself.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I already commented on that. Good/sticky rubber def the vette. Poor rubber, might be close. This is highly speculative though.

Got any facts to go with it? I haven't seen the COG for both, so I'm only assuming they are close based on experience with both cars. Remember, 400lbs is huge.

I'm sure you'll agree that matching both cars on CM, or CS, or SH tires, in GT5, should not always result in the same lateral G figures. Which is the point that's being made here.

Now you're splitting hairs.

I wouldn't call the complete lack of torque steer off the line in GT a small issue, so this is a bit more than splitting hairs, IMO. Then again, we all have different priorities, I suppose.

Now? I've been staring that from the start.

The amount of times I've spun a race car in FM4 due to over-correcting makes me question this. Or a particularly finnicky road car, usually highly-strung MR cars. Lower-end road cars? Not so much. Which adds up, to me.

Flooring the throttle is not the most effective for the start in GT5. it's slower (wheelspin) and causes excess tire wear.

True, it isn't (the Drag Racing section sees to this), but it's still mighty disheartening that whether I floor the throttle in a 1000hp Viper, or roll on to the throttle deep in 3rd gear, the car will always point arrow-straight.

I don't think either F4 or GT5 do launching right. One is simplified but with the relative grip being close (GT5) the other has TQ steer but the wheelspin is outlandish.

Here's a post where I did some accelerative testing between the two games. What's interesting is how close the two games are, stock, when it comes to RWD, but how completely off the mark GT is with FWD. This isn't a new thing to the series, either. Chalk up the slower NSX-R 1/4 mile times to the fact that in real life, the R is rumoured to be developing well more than the 290hp Honda quoted at the time.

Completely disagree here.

Again, personal priorities. While I'll agree some cars feel like they exaggerate their wayward aspects off the line in FM4, it's certainly preferable to me than GT's "always straight, no matter what" approach. One is at least making an attempt to appear realistic (this is only in regards to off-the-line starts).

I already said this was in regards to off the line traction, but it also applies to grip in all regards actually.

There is too much grip, but at the same time when you lose grip it's too easy to control.

Here's my thoughts on that too, with a run around Tsukuba in the NSX-R in both games. It's curious that you say FM4 has too much grip; it seems opinions are split on this, as roughly half of those who prefer GT5 say the opposite.

 

[Scaff]

I already commented on that. Good/sticky rubber def the vette. Poor rubber, might be close. This is highly speculative though.

Yet in GT5 regardless of the compound they have the same lat-g. which is the point being made.

Got any facts to go with it? I haven't seen the COG for both, so I'm only assuming they are close based on experience with both cars. Remember, 400lbs is huge.

Yes the dimensions of both cars and the method by which COG is determined, unless that 400lbs in all mounted in the roof then the COG in the Vette is going to be lower and given that the weight distribution of the two its totally different its certainly going to be more central.

Now you're splitting hairs.

No I'm stating an observable and repeatable fact, GT5 does not model torque steer off the line.

Now? I've been staring that from the start.

So its impossible to loose a car through overcorrection in FM4?

Flooring the throttle is not the most effective for the start in GT5. it's slower (wheelspin) and causes excess tire wear.

I don't think either F4 or GT5 do launching right. One is simplified but with the relative grip being close (GT5) the other has TQ steer but the wheelspin is outlandish.

Now that is odd because if I had to label one as having odd wheelspin it would be GT5, the tyres just don't want to hook up at all.

I already said this was in regards to off the line traction, but it also applies to grip in all regards actually.

There is too much grip, but at the same time when you lose grip it's too easy to control.

Once again odd because the tests I've carried out puts FM4 tyres in roughly the right grip levels when calculated against lat-g, cornering speeds and corner radius. With the right tyres (which are not always stock) the same can be said for GT5.

The difference between the two for me doesn't lie in the grip levels themselves which are not wildly different for stock cars once you work out the right tyre in GT5, but rather in the manner in which grip transitions.

In GT5 its still very much like a switch (as it was in GT4), FM4 has a transition from grip to loss that is both progressive and well communicated. This leads to the sudden loss of grip in GT5 and the overly harsh overcorrection issues (as grip transition is not well communicated) and the claims some make in regard to FM4 not having issues with overcorrection, which it does its simply being communicated and as such doesn't just happen as it does in GT5.


The more you post on this the less it sounds like FM4 you are talking about and more like FM2 or 3, how much time have you spent with FM4?

Hmmm wasn't down for others or myself.

It was down for maintenance when I tried to access at 10 am UK time.


Scaff

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

It's a 76 934.5, it was built by our shop/partner Willi Kauhsen. I can't remember the chassis number though. And Porsche considers it to be the fastest 934.5 in the world right now. We've been banned from numerous historic series due to being "too fast" as we were beating 935's haha. It's dialed in.

Decided it would be easier just to post a link to my thread over on nasioc, rather than flood this thread with pictures. Unless you want me to lol.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2218811&highlight=porsche+934+5

Saw the car, awesome ... simply amazing man.

 

[amar212]