Forza 4 vs GT5 physics (read the first post before contributing)

[Zuel]

This is such a unrealistic poll

I agree

 

[sdkflu]

The Gran Turismo 5 (spec 2.0+) is a exellent simulator when playing without ABS in the brakes ... without ABS the physics is in another level, especially with the Comfort tires for road legal cars, and Sport tires for track use only and race cars... with active ABS, during the deceleration the dirty work of stability is done by the computer software instead of the driver, and with this situation loses most of its feel of driving, ride always without ABS (with 900 wheel controller) and the proper tires, and you will have a exellent amazing simulator 👍 .

 

[Exorcet]

I still can't find the major difference between ABS on/off. I also don't think it's of much consolation that ABS on makes the game less of a sim. ABS is a real thing, it should behave like the real thing.

In any case, ABS off doesn't add weight transfer, or realistic tires, so two of the biggest problems remain.

 

[sdkflu]

I'm almost more than 45 years old, and having driving to many years several cars with ABS in race circuit (track days) and this ABS function in GT5 has nothing to do with reality ABS, special as only abs without ESP (stability control) working together, but like as a total package stability control which is not a some real esp from particular car, but a general one esp created by PD to work with the game on all cars from a small FWD with 70 hp with street tires, to a 1960 Corvette and to a Formula ONE RWD with 900 hp with prototype race tires, so is a fantastic perfect abs combination with a perfect world ESP, to control with software the car stability in the brakes...
tires is not perfect, but is good if user choice the proper tire for each car category...

i have spent alot of time with simulator pc GT LEGENDS of Sinbin, is my favorite PC sim, where is an excellent simulator, together with LFS, download Tsukuba for GT legends, and drives the Shelby Cobra 65 class, and drive then in Tsukuba in GT5, and then conducted about a similar car, Shelby Cobra in GT5 with comfort medium tires without abs (3 front - 0 rear setting) ... has 95% the same driving and feeling behavior and even similar lap times..

and last word, there not perfect simulator out there...
but the GT5 after spec 2.0+ is not bad, special with all electronics off, abs off, and drive road cars with comfort tires, and most of race cars with sport tires, who is like aproduction race tires performances, full racing slick tires is a prototype tires performances for a limited race cars, like formula one, Group.C, Lemans prototypes and similar machines

sorry for my bad english...

 

[nangu]

I'm almost more than 45 years old, and having driving to many years several cars with ABS in race circuit (track days) and this ABS function in GT5 has nothing to do with reality ABS, special as only abs without ESP (stability control) working together, but like as a total package stability control which is not a some real esp from particular car, but a general one esp created by PD to work with the game on all cars from a small FWD with 70 hp with street tires, to a 1960 Corvette and to a Formula ONE RWD with 900 hp with prototype race tires, so is a fantastic perfect abs combination with a perfect world ESP, to control with software the car stability in the brakes...
tires is not perfect, but is good if user choice the proper tire for each car category...

i have spent alot of time with simulator pc GT LEGENDS of Sinbin, is my favorite PC sim, where is an excellent simulator, together with LFS, download Tsukuba for GT legends, and drives the Shelby Cobra 65 class, and drive then in Tsukuba in GT5, and then conducted about a similar car, Shelby Cobra in GT5 with comfort medium tires without abs (3 front - 0 rear setting) ... has 95% the same driving and feeling behavior and even similar lap times..

and last word, there not perfect simulator out there...
but the GT5 after spec 2.0+ is not bad, special with all electronics off, abs off, and drive road cars with comfort tires, and most of race cars with sport tires, who is like aproduction race tires performances, full racing slick tires is a prototype tires performances for a limited race cars, like formula one, Group.C, Lemans prototypes and similar machines

sorry for my bad english...

I totally agree with you. I'm 43, and played every PC sim since the first GP series from Geoff Crammond. GT5 is not perfect by any means, but without any assist, a proper brake bias and tyre combination you get a very good "package" which feels very close to the real thing by comparing it to my own car on a track.

I have to try Forza myself, so I can't argue about which physics engine is better or wich "feels" more realistic, but reading a lot of opinions on this thread seems like GT5 is trash, which IMO is a very good simulator by comparing the feel I get from it to my real car on a racetrack. May be Forza is better, but GT5 is a good sim if we talk about feeling, even better than rFactor (version 1) for PC, which can have a superior physics engine but lacks to translate that physics to the steering wheel, so the enjoyment is very constrained and you never feels it's right.

As I said before, you can have a physics engine and tyre model which is the best of the world, but if you can't translate it properly to what the player feels, it's a waste.

GT5 can have an average on these two aspects, but the whole package is modeled right so you can feel it the right way. But, to get that feel, you have to turn off the driving aids and trial/error the brake bias/wheel settings and use the low grip tyres. Where GT5 is very wrong is on simulating real world electronic aids. ABS, is ABS only, not ABS + ESP + stability control + weight transfer control, as modelled in the game. I can drive my car with ABS on and ESP off if I want, but on GT5 it's impossible.

 

[Scaff]

As I said before, you can have a physics engine and tyre model which is the best of the world, but if you can't translate it properly to what the player feels, it's a waste.

And you can have great feedback which is pointless if the tyres don't behave in a realistic manner, grip to slip transition is wrong and self aligning torque isn't modeled correctly.

GT5 can have an average on these two aspects, but the whole package is modeled right so you can feel it the right way.

I disagree. GT5 feels fine right up until you get to the degree of slip that sees traction decrease and at that point its feel is not 'right' at all, nor does the model allow you to correct accurately from that point on.

Which on something aiming to be a sim is a bit of an issue, as that's the exact point at which your aiming for when driving on the limit.

 

[Exorcet]

The rest of the game can let down the physics, I agree. When I first tried Shift, the controls were so bad that I couldn't really tell how the car was behaving.

However, you can't really circumvent the physics engine. Good physics are needed for a realistic sim, including the feeling department.

GT5 is OK, but the tire and suspension models are a big let down. The way that weight transfer is constrained is pretty apparent and I find it hard to get over. It would be one thing if it was there, but not quite right, which is more like the case in Forza, but in GT it can feel as if it's completely disabled at times.

If by good simulation you mean fun to race and drive realistically, I do agree. GT5 was one of the games I played the most. However I think that for the generation of sims that it is a part of, it is noticeably behind. Nothing in the settings really rectifies this.

 

[nangu]

The rest of the game can let down the physics, I agree. When I first tried Shift, the controls were so bad that I couldn't really tell how the car was behaving.

However, you can't really circumvent the physics engine. Good physics are needed for a realistic sim, including the feeling department.

GT5 is OK, but the tire and suspension models are a big let down. The way that weight transfer is constrained is pretty apparent and I find it hard to get over. It would be one thing if it was there, but not quite right, which is more like the case in Forza, but in GT it can feel as if it's completely disabled at times.

If by good simulation you mean fun to race and drive realistically, I do agree. GT5 was one of the games I played the most. However I think that for the generation of sims that it is a part of, it is noticeably behind. Nothing in the settings really rectifies this.

There is no sim on PC or consoles which can reproduce the feeling you get on your butt on a real car. All translates to the feel you get on the FF wheel and, as I said, I feel it better modelled in GT than rFactor, being that rFactor has better physics, so physics engine or tyre model per se are not the only factors. Thats why I speak in terms of a whole "package" when comparing sims. I don't think GT5 is noticeably behind, sorry.

Scaff: May be you are right about grip and slip because I can only compare to my real car on track, and I can say GT is pretty accurate on those two aspects when driving the same car as mine in the game, but as I don't have access to drive a more powered and sensible car IRL I can't discuss what you say with a valid argument. I only can say that the feeling of my real car is simulated very close on the game, even the grip/slip situation.

I think the "package" is not brilliant at all, but it's right and very fun to drive. On GT5 I can feel the grip/loss of grip situation in order to correct, but again, in rFactor example, a lot of times it's a "grip/sudden no grip" situation feel on the controller. It's out of discussion rFactor has better physics, but if I can't feel them it's a game breaker situation for me, even I can say it's not accurate at all to represent what a car does on a track. I don't know if I explain myself well, my english is limited.

After all, GT5 is a game which aims at trying to simulate how a car behaves when driven on a track, and IMO in some aspects of driving does it better than PC hardcore sims. As I said, there is no piece of software which can simulate with real accuracy what you feel on the seat, and I think GT5 does it right despite not having the very best and accurate physics engine.

For me, gray exists, and it's fun. It's not a white or black situation, as many on this thread seems to present it.

If I want top notch accurate driving experience, I just drive the real thing, or try to work hard to buy Red Bull or Ferrari simulators 💡, because there is no sim which can reproduce it, even iRacing. Speaking on iRacing, is out of discussion it's the more realistic PC sim out there, with the better physics engine and tire model, but sometimes you feel like driving on ice. May be it's me which feels the other way, I don't know, but it's what I feel,

To sum up, I don't say at all GT5 is THE sim, but is very far to the trash some seems to present it in terms of realism, and with a proper setup and settings is a very rewarding game in terms of driving physics, compared against a car which I drive on track.

Cheers.

 

[PepeMickey]

To those that say that GT5 is broken in the ABS/braking department, you need to try it on and off with a proper brake bias before you say anything about it. I'm not saying it's perfect but please make sure real testing is done before you make any assumptions.

Game experience and play-time isn't enough to make a decision, you have to test both games with similar gear and doing specific tests.

 

[Lock2Lock]

To those that say that GT5 is broken in the ABS/braking department, you need to try it on and off with a proper brake bias before you say anything about it. I'm not saying it's perfect but please make sure real testing is done before you make any assumptions.

Game experience and play-time isn't enough to make a decision, you have to test both games with similar gear and doing specific tests.

Do you mean that GT5 has realistic ABS feeling with a better brake bias?

I guess Mr I like to make ignorant assumptions still is ignoring me. His fault not mine.

 

[Wolfe]

@nangu: Your comments remind me of a post I wrote last December:

I recently played GT5 again for the first time in over a year, and I think I understand why some people think it offers a better experience and feels more natural. It's the way the cars "wobble" and bounce and bite into the corners, much moreso than FM4. I could hardly make a successful lap because the physics are just so awful and I'm not used to them anymore. But it is more "lively" than FM4.

I have to say that FM4 is not terribly communicative compared to other titles. It's rather "flat" and "mute", which is one of the complaints I always had about the game.

 

[Dusty1990]

To those that say that GT5 is broken in the ABS/braking department, you need to try it on and off with a proper brake bias before you say anything about it. I'm not saying it's perfect but please make sure real testing is done before you make any assumptions.

Game experience and play-time isn't enough to make a decision, you have to test both games with similar gear and doing specific tests.

This thread is about comparing GT5 with Forza, Forza does no ABS better, far more feel, faster. I've given up trying to run without it, like so many using the 1 click method.

 

[Scaff]

@jimipitbull

If you post off-topic flame bait again you will be taking a holiday from GT Planet and get an infraction.

This is now the second time I have had to clear up posts of this nature from you, do not make me do it again.

 

[Lock2Lock]

@ Scaff

Did you ever read my PM I sent you a few days ago. I have a few things I would like for you to help me test, if you don't mind. I have been testing out the hidden tires on GT5. I would appreciate (with your knowledge of the tire physics) it if you wouldn't mind doing so.

Let me know thanks.

 

[another_jakhole]

Since the use of a steering wheel is a big factor in this...
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=15859760&postcount=1

 

[Scaff]

@ Scaff

Did you ever read my PM I sent you a few days ago. I have a few things I would like for you to help me test, if you don't mind. I have been testing out the hidden tires on GT5. I would appreciate (with your knowledge of the tire physics) it if you wouldn't mind doing so.

Let me know thanks.

I did and the answer is a DFGT for GT5, don't currently have my MS wheel as my little brother 'borrowed' it and has now taken it to Uni with him.

 

[Lock2Lock]

I did and the answer is a DFGT for GT5, don't currently have my MS wheel as my little brother 'borrowed' it and has now taken it to Uni with him.

Oh ok. I never got your message (don't know why).
Well basically I was wondering if I sent you some of the hidden tires maybe you could test them out. I do not know if you are familiar with them or not. Here are the descriptions for the Comfort Hard tires.

.

They honestly feel really different from the normal Comfort Hard class tires. I have a thread in the drifting forum explaining what i have found so far, you might want to check it out (which you might be able to further explain them).

If i can add you on PSN and send you the tires (which there are these tires for each set of hard/medium/soft tires). I could also let you know either by PM or e-mail how to obtain these tires so you can add as many as you like to your save data.

I figured with your knowledge of the tire physics on GT5 you could test these more thoroughly than I can.

 

[H3avyM3tal]

Like all of us know - a digital presentation of a moving car can never be 100% accurate because it lacks the real feeling of driving the car and feeling the effects on our bodies.

However, if there is one thing that I can say is that GT5 offers a more convincing presentaion. It is hard to explain, having driven only my vits (shame on me), but in GT5 I can anticipate things better than in Forza.

Maybe it will sound absurd, but there is a certain feeling to driving cars in GT5 with a wheel, that is not present in other sims. I call it 'soul' for lack of a better word, but there is something about the way PD does the whole driving simulation.

Today, to be more realistic, a sim needs more accurate engine to crunch out numbers based on advanced equations and such. The more info it can produce the better - I just think that the wall sims face is that no matter how accurate they get, they always improve.

This means that it always gets more realistic, but until it does - it feels just clinic. Ironic, I know - but what I get from GT5 is a system which represents realism in a more natural way, and so the clinical feeling GT has always had is more visual than physical for me.

That give me the impression that driving in GT feels much more natural than in every other console or pc sim. Natural also means that I can predict things better, and in GT5 I was caught off guard and surprised much much less than in every other title.

I hope this helps you think a little differently on the subject, even if it's vague.

 

[Scaff]

Like all of us know - a digital presentation of a moving car can never be 100% accurate because it lacks the real feeling of driving the car and feeling the effects on our bodies.

However, if there is one thing that I can say is that GT5 offers a more convincing presentaion. It is hard to explain, having driven only my vits (shame on me), but in GT5 I can anticipate things better than in Forza.

Maybe it will sound absurd, but there is a certain feeling to driving cars in GT5 with a wheel, that is not present in other sims. I call it 'soul' for lack of a better word, but there is something about the way PD does the whole driving simulation.

Today, to be more realistic, a sim needs more accurate engine to crunch out numbers based on advanced equations and such. The more info it can produce the better - I just think that the wall sims face is that no matter how accurate they get, they always improve.

This means that it always gets more realistic, but until it does - it feels just clinic. Ironic, I know - but what I get from GT5 is a system which represents realism in a more natural way.

That give me the impression that driving in GT feels much more natural than in every other console or pc sim. Natural also means that I can predict things better, and in GT5 I was caught off guard and surprised much much less than in every other title.

I hope this helps you think a little differently on the subject, even if it's vague.

Well written, but I totally disagree GT5 is the one that for me feels utterly clinical, mainly due to the lack of progression in the tyre model. Something that I don't either natural or close to how tyres behave.

 

[H3avyM3tal]

The clinical feeling I get form GT is visual, not physical. I should have added that after the 'Ironic, I know' part. I'll just add it.

 

[Tornado]

If it's driving feel with a wheel in relation to on-screen actions you're referring to, you should dig up a copy of Need for Speed Porsche Unleashed on the PC. The sim credentials it sold itself on when new are pretty weak nowadays, but the force feedback representation is still one of the best, period.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Like all of us know - a digital presentation of a moving car can never be 100% accurate because it lacks the real feeling of driving the car and feeling the effects on our bodies.

However, if there is one thing that I can say is that GT5 offers a more convincing presentaion. It is hard to explain, having driven only my vits (shame on me), but in GT5 I can anticipate things better than in Forza.

Maybe it will sound absurd, but there is a certain feeling to driving cars in GT5 with a wheel, that is not present in other sims. I call it 'soul' for lack of a better word, but there is something about the way PD does the whole driving simulation.

Today, to be more realistic, a sim needs more accurate engine to crunch out numbers based on advanced equations and such. The more info it can produce the better - I just think that the wall sims face is that no matter how accurate they get, they always improve.

This means that it always gets more realistic, but until it does - it feels just clinic. Ironic, I know - but what I get from GT5 is a system which represents realism in a more natural way, and so the clinical feeling GT has always had is more visual than physical for me.

That give me the impression that driving in GT feels much more natural than in every other console or pc sim. Natural also means that I can predict things better, and in GT5 I was caught off guard and surprised much much less than in every other title.

I hope this helps you think a little differently on the subject, even if it's vague.

The natural feel is what I like about GT5 too, it is only sim I feel really at one with car. There is still a lot of room for improvement but hopefully they keep that subtle feeling you get that makes all the difference.

I was playing GT5 yesterday (X2010 and F2007) and one thing that really annoys me is the back-torque limiter. Hopefully GT6 does not have it. Will find out soon I guess .

 

[McLaren]

This means that it always gets more realistic, but until it does - it feels just clinic. Ironic, I know - but what I get from GT5 is a system which represents realism in a more natural way, and so the clinical feeling GT has always had is more visual than physical for me.

That give me the impression that driving in GT feels much more natural than in every other console or pc sim. Natural also means that I can predict things better, and in GT5 I was caught off guard and surprised much much less than in every other title.

I hope this helps you think a little differently on the subject, even if it's vague.

You lost me at this.

How is driving in GT a more natural feeling than any other console sim when the tire model completely nukes how certain cars in the game are supposed to actually feel when you drive them?

If driving in GT is supposedly as you claim, then the natural feeling you get from driving an Elise is not how GT5 presents the car as a vehicle on ice skates during 1 challenge. Or how is that when you floor a Shelby Cobra in the game, it creates wheelspin in a very controlled, straight line manner? If GT creates a much more natural driving feeling than any other sim, then the game would recreate how the car would naturally feel if you drove it in that situation; all over the place. But, it doesn't as Scaff has shown repeatedly.

 

[Lock2Lock]

You lost me at this.

How is driving in GT a more natural feeling than any other console sim when the tire model completely nukes how certain cars in the game are supposed to actually feel when you drive them?

If driving in GT is supposedly as you claim, then the natural feeling you get from driving an Elise is not how GT5 presents the car as a vehicle on ice skates during 1 challenge. Or how is that when you floor a Shelby Cobra in the game, it creates wheelspin in a very controlled, straight line manner? If GT creates a much more natural driving feeling than any other sim, then the game would recreate how the car would naturally feel if you drove it in that situation; all over the place. But, it doesn't as Scaff has shown repeatedly.

I do agree.


When Scaff has time to test the hidden tires on was telling him about. I am hoping he will see what I am seeing in the hidden tires.
Get on the ball Scaff hahaha just kidding.

But on the note of the Shelby Cobra I think something is set up wrong on GT5. The differential doesn't seem right. Shouldn't that car have a open differential? It doesn't feel like a open differential in GT5.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Since the use of a steering wheel is a big factor in this...
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=15859760&postcount=1

A four year old post about a wheel just as old?

A steering wheel is a big factor only in the user's interactions with the physics engine. It has an effect on the steering (versus a pad) - as both games have buffers in place for pad drivers - but the basic formulas and calculations of a physics engine should not be affected by our feedback. Only our inputs.

But on the note of the Shelby Cobra I think something is set up wrong on GT5. The differential doesn't seem right. Shouldn't that car have a open differential? It doesn't feel like a open differential in GT5.

Something is definitely set up wrong in GT5. The tire model.

 

[Scaff]

The natural feel is what I like about GT5 too, it is only sim I feel really at one with car.

And your benchmark for this is?

I do agree.

When Scaff has time to test the hidden tires on was telling him about. I am hoping he will see what I am seeing in the hidden tires.
Get on the ball Scaff hahaha just kidding.

Between work and this place set to explode later today I would not expect too see anything this side of the weekend.

But on the note of the Shelby Cobra I think something is set up wrong on GT5. The differential doesn't seem right. Shouldn't that car have a open differential? It doesn't feel like a open differential in GT5.

If it was just this car your could point the finger at party off its modeling, but the simple fact is that every car does it. It is not possible to get torque steer off the line in any car in GT5.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

And your benchmark for this is?

I am just going my what is most communicative for me. GT5 communicates the balance of the car and limit of adhesion the best for me. Steering feel wise, the most realistic one I have used is on a Cruden Simulator. I haven't had much time using a T500RS in GT5 but it feels more realistic than my G27 and more in direction of the one I used in the Cruden Simulator.

 

[Scaff]

I am just going my what is most communicative for me. GT5 communicates the balance of the car and limit of adhesion the best for me. Steering feel wise, the most realistic one I have used is on a Cruden Simulator. I haven't had much time using a T500RS in GT5 but it feels more realistic than my G27 and more in direction of the one I used in the Cruden Simulator.

So just to be clear, you are stating which one is closer to reality (natural feel) based only on sims?

Do you not see the issue with that?

 

[Saidur_Ali]

So just to be clear, you are stating which one is closer to reality (natural feel) based only on sims?

Do you not see the issue with that?

Not really, it is unlikely to get physical feeling of being in a car anytime soon in a cheap home simulator so most communicative is best for me and natural feel does not have to mean reality. Car to car is usually quite different too in real life. Sure more experience of driving cars on the limit will help judge better but you can get a rough idea already on how it should feel.

 

[Scaff]

Not really, it is unlikely to get physical feeling of being in a car anytime soon in a cheap home simulator so most communicative is best for me and natural feel does not have to mean reality. Car to car is usually quite different too in real life. Sure more experience of driving cars on the limit will help judge better but you can get a rough idea already on how it should feel.

How can you get even a rough idea of how it should feel without reality as a benchmark?

Now while it is true that feedback in reality does vary greatly from car to car (a point I have made repeatedly) somethings are always present, such as steering going light once the slip threshold is passed as self-aligning torque reduces. GT5 doesn't model this well at all (to the point of being almost non-existent), while FM4 does, yet I've seen this labeled as FM4 being wrong. The reason, because people don't use reality as a benchmark.

The reality of your statement is that you prefer how GT5 feels, but that doesn't make it right or more accurate.