Forza 4 vs GT5 physics (read the first post before contributing)

[Saidur_Ali]

How can you get even a rough idea of how it should feel without reality as a benchmark?

Now while it is true that feedback in reality does vary greatly from car to car (a point I have made repeatedly) somethings are always present, such as steering going light once the slip threshold is passed as self-aligning torque reduces. GT5 doesn't model this well at all (to the point of being almost non-existent), while FM4 does, yet I've seen this labeled as FM4 being wrong. The reason, because people don't use reality as a benchmark.

The reality of your statement is that you prefer how GT5 feels, but that doesn't make it right or more accurate.

There is enough theory about it to have a rough idea. That is why I think Cruden Simulator has most realistic steering I felt, not how my G27 feels on GT5.

T500RS might represent this feedback better, it feels quite a bit different than the G27 in GT5. Need more hands on time really with wheel as I never had time with it to be confident to push to limit with it. Like I said before though, there is still a lot of room from improvement in GT regarding FFB.

I haven't said otherwise, I would prefer more FFB through wheel as that communicates more about car is doing to me with hardware I got, senses that you would only get to understand if you had FFB pedal set and accurate motion simulator. Assetto Corsa for example will offer both the "fake" and also "pure" FFB, maybe GT6 could also do that so people who prefer less feedback, but more realistic steering only feedback, they can use that option. I would more often than not go for the option that gives as much feedback as possible of what car is doing.

 

[Scaff]

There is enough theory about it to have a rough idea. That is why I think Cruden Simulator has most realistic steering I felt, not how my G27 feels on GT5.

T500RS might represent this feedback better, it feels quite a bit different than the G27 in GT5. Need more hands on time really with wheel as I never had time with it to be confident to push to limit with it. Like I said before though, there is still a lot of room from improvement in GT regarding FFB.

I haven't said otherwise, I would prefer more FFB through wheel as that communicates more about car is doing to me with hardware I got, senses that you would only get to understand if you had FFB pedal set and accurate motion simulator. Assetto Corsa for example will offer both the "fake" and also "pure" FFB, maybe GT6 could also do that so people who prefer less feedback, but more realistic steering only feedback, they can use that option. I would more often than not go for the option that gives as much feedback as possible of what car is doing.

Absolutely none of which addresses the point that you have no frame of reference as to the feedback being right or not.

As such this....

The reality of your statement is that you prefer how GT5 feels, but that doesn't make it right or more accurate.

...still stands.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Absolutely none of which addresses the point that you have no frame of reference as to the feedback being right or not.

As such this....

The reality of your statement is that you prefer how GT5 feels, but that doesn't make it right or more accurate.

...still stands.

And your point is? I was just saying that I prefer how GT5 feels.

 

[Scaff]

And your point is? I was just saying that I prefer how GT5 feels.

You and the post you were replying to both stated that GT5 feels the most 'natural' so either you have a very odd definition of that word or you are stating (with using reality as a frame of reference) that GT5 is closer to reality.

After all if I were to say that Forza had the more 'natural' lighting (which it doesn't) and then tried to claim I did't actually mean it looked more realistic, I'm sure you would take issue (and quite rightly).

Yet that's what the two of you have just done.

 

[H3avyM3tal]

Scaff, you don't need to be scientifically advanced to feel more natural. It's video games, and digital magic can produce many smoke and mirrors to give a sense of something.

I don't have any experience aside my vitz (as I mentioned before), so I can't say anything against your remarks. What I can do is point out that this is not reality. From a mathematical pov, maybe Forza does have something on GT. But as far as I can tell it can go the other way around in some aspects.

What I am saying, I guess, is that GT does a better job in the 'magic' department to simulate driving (this is my opinion, based on my very limited experience and comments from around here and the web).

Sorry if I can't explain myself better, but I never found a mathematically correct sim to actually portray driving as it really should be (this goes for GT and Forza, and iRacing). Until I get to drive an mx5 or an elise, I will find GT more natual and correct on consoles.

While I trust your input and experience, conditions are hard to come by for this comparison (same car and settings, same wheel [with 100% comaptibility], same track, same weather conditions and so on).

 

[Dusty1990]

Always amazes me how irate some people get about a video game...

If people put as much energy into playing the game as they do arguing about it they'd be a lot better/happier :-/

 

[Scaff]

Scaff, you don't need to be scientifically advanced to feel more natural. It's video games, and digital magic can produce many smoke and mirrors to give a sense of something.

I don't have any experience aside my vitz (as I mentioned before), so I can't say anything against your remarks. What I can do is point out that this is not reality. From a mathematical pov, maybe Forza does have something on GT. But as far as I can tell it can go the other way around in some aspects.

What I am saying, I guess, is that GT does a better job in the 'magic' department to simulate driving (this is my opinion, based on my very limited experience and comments from around here and the web).

Sorry if I can't explain myself better, but I never found a mathematically correct sim to actually portray driving as it really should be (this goes for GT and Forza, and iRacing). Until I get to drive an mx5 or an elise, I will find GT more natual and correct on consoles.

While I trust your input and experience, conditions are hard to come by for this comparison (same car and settings, same wheel [with 100% comaptibility], same track, same weather conditions and so on).

I'm basing my view on quite a bit of real world experience (that does include numerous generations of MX5 and Elise) and in my opinion GT is neither natural or correct on console.

None of which still gets away from the feedback in GT5 not being correct in certain areas (one example of which I mentioned above). So regardless of if this feels more natural to you, the issue remains that its wrong and as such its 'feel' is not correct or natural in that regard. This is not 'magic' vehicle dynamics and how its fed back to the driver is either right or its not, feel free to prefer one or the other, but that doesn't make it right. How it compares to the only benchmark that counts (reality) is what matters, and in this regard FM4 does it better than GT5. Now both have issues, but right now FM4 is closer than GT5 to what should happen and how tat should then be communicated to the driver. As my example above explains, when a car starts to understeer heavily, the steering should go light, that is its natural feedback. How you can then describe the one that fails to do this as natural is beyond me, as a driver its what you expect to happen and react to accordingly, if you don't get it then its not natural is it?


On a more general noteI did however find it quite interesting that the areas of physics issues in GT5 that I have always focused on as having issues, and have routinely been told I am wrong about by certain members, are exactly the ones that PD has re-written for GT6. Its good to note that the side by side comparisons that they put in the presentation has much more fluid body movements, much more akin to what we see in FM4 (5:40 to 9:09 for the physics stuff). I just hope they get it right quicker than T10 did (who needed three goes to get it OK with real tyre data), but anything has to be better than the grip multipliers and none existent transitions we get now.

 

[H3avyM3tal]

I can't possibly say you are mistaken 👍 Besides the steering not going light while understeering, what would you suggest checking to better understand the issues?

 

[RPM Bibblefish]

Why is it when anyone describes why they believe GT5's physics engine does a better job than FM4's we get the same old rhetoric "Feel" or "Magic" and my personal favourite "More soul in the FFB"

Fact is you "think" GT5 does it better because GT5 is all you know so anything else is wrong by default.

 

[Lock2Lock]

Why is it when anyone describes why they believe GT5's physics engine does a better job than FM4's we get the same old rhetoric "Feel" or "Magic" and my personal favourite "More soul in the FFB"

Fact is you "think" GT5 does it better because GT5 is all you know so anything else is wrong by default.

I have owned both systems and games. Both with wheels. I didn’t get a realistic feeling in FM4 through the wheel. Not saying all cars are perfect just saying it didn't feel right on Forza. GT5 is far from perfect, far as a better feeling through the wheel GT5 has it over Forza. Just my opinion.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

You and the post you were replying to both stated that GT5 feels the most 'natural' so either you have a very odd definition of that word or you are stating (with using reality as a frame of reference) that GT5 is closer to reality.

After all if I were to say that Forza had the more 'natural' lighting (which it doesn't) and then tried to claim I did't actually mean it looked more realistic, I'm sure you would take issue (and quite rightly).

Yet that's what the two of you have just done.

It feels the most natural out the ones I tried simply because it gets across feedback you miss a lot in other simulation games, if you can separate what it is telling you then it feel more natural than just using a 2D screen, no FFB pedals, no motion but just basic steering feel which doesn't really replicate specific car but a generic steering input feel and also a big change in realism can be made given how good your FFB wheel is. What wheel have you tried with GT5 for example? Maybe it will start feeling more real to you if you used a T500RS.

GT5 FFB has a mix of realism and also effects that are "fake" which give much more information that you are missing out on due to limited setup most people have. It is quite amazing to see like successful top real world drivers such as Sebastien Loeb and Sebastian Vettel so good at the game and take to it so quickly.

Real life has these problems too regarding feel, if you can't get that steering feedback you require / used to (Especially steering systems that give a lot of feedback), it won't feel natural to you as a driver and you will be having to rely on other feedback more and adapt as best as you can.

 

[H3avyM3tal]

Why is it when anyone describes why they believe GT5's physics engine does a better job than FM4's we get the same old rhetoric "Feel" or "Magic" and my personal favourite "More soul in the FFB"

Fact is you "think" GT5 does it better because GT5 is all you know so anything else is wrong by default.

Please don't presume to tell me why I think what I "think". Maybe I was making a poor choice of words, but that is how I can compare the mathematics to the sensory (atm).

I realize that the subject of this thread is not the same thing as 'the overall experience'. The physics engine may be more accurate, but that is the only subject of discussion here - which I was deviating from.

 

[Scaff]

I can't possibly say you are mistaken 👍 Besides the steering not going light while understeering, what would you suggest checking to better understand the issues?

The transition from grip to loss of grip and how the steering load is impacted is a critical factor and one of the most important in correct steering feel.

This is taken from an earlier post of mine in here:

Self Aligning Torque (steering resistance) builds are load is placed on the tyre and then shortly before the limit of grip is reached it drops off dramatically. What FM4 models (not perfectly by any means) is exactly what is supposed to happen.

Its discussed at length in this thread https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=260294

Its how load on the steering changes as lateral force on the tyre load builds, this rise and fall of SAT (self aligning torque) is how the transition from grip to loss of grip is communicated to a driver (in reality) and while neither title does it 100% right, FM4 is a lot better at doing it than GT5.

In addition we then have the issue of how suspension feedback is communicated to the driver, something I have once again commented on in the past:

I find it totally the other way around. GT5 throws in a lot of feedback via the wheel that shouldn't be felt via the wheel (primary ride should not be coming through the wheel in anything like the way it should). The issue is that primary ride is mainly what we feel through the car in general in reality and devs have two routes to provide us with that info, via the wheel (as GT5 does) or via onscreen movement of the car (which FM4 does). Neither are ideal, however I personally prefer the route FM4 takes as it ensures that only feedback that should be via the wheel is what you get, making reading he grip levels of the tyres much easier.

The net result of which is that GT5's feedback is 'more exciting', but its certainly not natural, as you should not get heavy primary ride feedback via the steering, in the real world you certainly don't, you get very few frequencies from primary back through the steering. Its secondary ride (rumble strips) that you should get back through the steering (both do this). In a basic form anything that moves a damper slowly should not be felt through the steering, anything that moves a damper quickly can get through to the steering.

I have owned both systems and games. Both with wheels. I didn’t get a realistic feeling in FM4 through the wheel. Not saying all cars are perfect just saying it didn't feel right on Forza. GT5 is far from perfect, far as a better feeling through the wheel GT5 has it over Forza. Just my opinion.

I disagree for the reasons outlined above.

It feels the most natural out the ones I tried simply because it gets across feedback you miss a lot in other simulation games, if you can separate what it is telling you then it feel more natural than just using a 2D screen, no FFB pedals, no motion but just basic steering feel which doesn't really replicate specific car but a generic steering input feel and also a big change in realism can be made given how good your FFB wheel is. What wheel have you tried with GT5 for example? Maybe it will start feeling more real to you if you used a T500RS.

And you are using what as your benchmark?

Not the first time I've asked the question and not the first time you have avoided the question. I'm also curious to know if you are still going to try and cherry pick SAT?

GT5 FFB has a mix of realism and also effects that are "fake" which give much more information that you are missing out on due to limited setup most people have.

Yes I know, I was the one that pointed that out, I do however find it odd that you quite happily admit that parts of its feedback should not be there, yet its more natural and real!

It is quite amazing to see like successful top real world drivers such as Sebastien Loeb and Sebastian Vettel so good at the game and take to it so quickly.

Would you like me to provide a list of drivers linked to other titles? As that would be about as much use.

Real life has these problems too regarding feel, if you can't get that steering feedback you require / used to (Especially steering systems that give a lot of feedback), it won't feel natural to you as a driver and you will be having to rely on other feedback more and adapt as best as you can.

I'm at a loss to understand why you keep telling me things I already know and have discussed?

It also doesn't validate your point at all, quite the opposite. What you are talking about here (and quite clearly don't understand fully) is primary and secondary ride feedback, which has nothing at all to do with GT5 not modeling SAT correctly via the steering. The first is almost certainly a design choice, realism takes a hit for feedback (FM4 choises to show it visually rather than via feedback - from a Steering FFB point of view that is more accurate but it removes an element of immersion). Now to me its not a great surprise that the SAT is not feedback correctly as that should be driven by the tyre and suspension model, which PD themselves stated quite clearly are to be totally overhauled for GT6.

In fact Jordan himself sums up how I feel about the differences between GT5 and FM4 in this regard when he explains the differences between GT6 and GT5:

With traction control disabled and ABS set to 1 (I didn’t notice SRF was “on”…ugh, sorry!), it felt difficult to be “quick” around the track. However, the car was also easier to control, as if I had a better sense of the level of grip available at each wheel and exactly what the car was doing. It felt good.

When I play an older Gran Turismo game, I notice a kind of “numbness” or “dullness” in the handling characteristics of the cars, after having become accustomed to GT5. Now, I think I will feel the same way about GT5 the next time I play it.

Source - https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turismo-6-gameplay-footage-and-hands-on-impressions/

All of which bodes well for GT6 and highlights the shortcomings I find with GT5's physics engine and the feedback that you then get from it.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

And you are using what as your benchmark?

Not the first time I've asked the question and not the first time you have avoided the question. I'm also curious to know if you are still going to try and cherry pick SAT?

Real-world factors.

Yes I know, I was the one that pointed that out, I do however find it odd that you quite happily admit that parts of its feedback should not be there, yet its more natural and real!

I already said why it is better, sims with less feedback are going to be less natural for simple reason as you miss out on a huge amount of feedback you would get in real life.

Would you like me to provide a list of drivers linked to other titles? As that would be about as much use.

So do you have a list of drivers that are as rapid as the top drivers in that game with steering wheel?

I'm at a loss to understand why you keep telling me things I already know and have discussed?

It also doesn't validate your point at all, quite the opposite. What you are talking about here (and quite clearly don't understand fully) is primary and secondary ride feedback, which has nothing at all to do with GT5 not modeling SAT correctly via the steering. The first is almost certainly a design choice, realism takes a hit for feedback (FM4 choises to show it visually rather than via feedback - from a Steering FFB point of view that is more accurate but it removes an element of immersion). Now to me its not a great surprise that the SAT is not feedback correctly as that should be driven by the tyre and suspension model, which PD themselves stated quite clearly are to be totally overhauled for GT6.

So why keep telling me same things again then?

GT5 has very good visual feedback too. FM4 FFB from what I heard is quite poor all around and not very realistic. Tiff has a lot of experience driving and he thinks it is the opposite of what should happen regarding oversteer.

SAT should be much better on T500RS, have you used that wheel? Still though the other feedback will remain too to add a bit of real and fake FFB in to give a winning formula that many people seem to like.

In fact Jordan himself sums up how I feel about the differences between GT5 and FM4 in this regard when he explains the differences between GT6 and GT5:

Source - https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turismo-6-gameplay-footage-and-hands-on-impressions/

All of which bodes well for GT6 and highlights the shortcomings I find with GT5's physics engine and the feedback that you then get from it.

Still no torque steer though at the moment and FFB is delivered in similar manner so maybe you might not like it.

 

[Scaff]

Real-world factors.

How wonderfully vague. Which ones and what is your experience of them?

I already said why it is better, sims with less feedback are going to be less natural for simple reason as you miss out on a huge amount of feedback you would get in real life.

Not if that feedback shouldn't be there in the first place (primary ride) or is wrong (SAT), both real world factors that are not correctly implemented in GT5s FFB (and one is a product of the physics model). So given that you are using real world factors as your benchmark please explain exactly why I should feel primary ride via the steering in the real world and why (please use the SAT graph) SAT stays the same when the slip angle limit is reached. GT5 does both of these things and I would like you to use real world factors to explain why that should be the case (after all I have repeatedly explained why it shouldn't - so counter with something other than your opinion - its time to back it up with substance).

So do you have a list of drivers that are as rapid as the top drivers in that game with steering wheel?

Which has what to do with anything?

So why keep telling me same things again then?

GT5 has very good visual feedback too. FM4 FFB from what I heard is quite poor all around and not very realistic. Tiff has a lot of experience driving and he thinks it is the opposite of what should happen regarding oversteer.

I keep telling you because you keep ignoring what I am saying, as for GT5's visual feedback, well PD themselves have shown the shortcomings in it. The visual side of bodyroll and low frequency damper movement have always been an issue with GT5, an area that PD are now addressing.

As for the Tiff review, you seem to be forgetting that was driven with all the FM driving aids switched on! Oh and SAT reduction is felt during understeer not oversteer, but of course your 'real world factors' should have made you aware of that, so its odd you got them mixed up (or are you just grabbing at straws now).

SAT should be much better on T500RS, have you used that wheel? Still though the other feedback will remain too to add a bit of real and fake FFB in to give a winning formula that many people seem to like.

How can SAT be better magically due to a wheel when PD haven't modeled it correctly due to the issues that exist with the current tyre model (and yes I have tried a T500RS, and the Fanatec range,etc).

Once again you are equating what GT5 does as being real simply because you like it. People liking stuff doesn't make it natural or real, and that will not change regardless of the number of times you say it.

Still no torque steer though at the moment and FFB is delivered in similar manner so maybe you might not like it.

Really, so you've driven GT6?

When did that happen exactly?

Jordan quite clearly says that the feedback of grip transition is clearly better than in GT5, no doubt due to the new tyre and suspension model, but what would he know, he only drove GT6, your interpretation from watching the video is of course much more accurate and valid.

 

[H3avyM3tal]

Not if that feedback shouldn't be there in the first place.

I do agree with Ali's words on this - while it isn't how it is in reality, it feels more natural because we make the adjustments in our brain. Or maybe he meant something else...

You also make the adjustments yourself if you KNOW what is missing because of tech limitations and your knowledge of cars. However, because you will never have the true physical feedback you get from driving a car in GT and in Forza, you are left with two interpretations.

One takes a mathematically correct way, and the other uses different mathematical tricks. It is true that there is only one way to make something like this correct in the mathematical aspect, and if that is the question of this thread is - then yes. Forza is more accurate as it depicts what it can without resorting to other ways to show what it can't in a TRUE way.

That is what I meant with vague words like magic and soul, and I hope that is clearer now.

 

[Scaff]

I do agree with Ali's words on this - while it isn't how it is in reality, it feels more natural because we make the adjustments in our brain. Or maybe he meant something else...

You also make the adjustments yourself if you KNOW what is missing because of tech limitations and your knowledge of cars. However, because you will never have the true physical feedback you get from driving a car in GT and in Forza, you are left with two interpretations.

One takes a mathematically correct way, and the other uses different mathematical tricks. It is true that there is only one way to make something like this correct in the mathematical aspect, and if that is the question of this thread is - then yes. Forza is more accurate as it depicts what it can without resorting to other ways to show what it can't in a TRUE way.

That is what I meant with vague words like magic and soul, and I hope that is clearer now.

As I have repeatedly said with regard to primary ride, neither method of doing it is ideal and as such I can see why you prefer the GT5 way of doing it, but I can't agree that its natural, but I do acknowledge that you agree its incorrect in relation to reality.

However with regard to SAT, nothing your brain can do will 'make' what GT5 does right, SAT should reduce (and noticeably - this is not something you will miss on a real car), that GT5 doesn't model it is wrong plain and simple.

 

[killjoy2022]

I think GT5 has the better physics, Forza 4 just seems more grippy and less of a struggle than GT5.

 

[Scaff]

I think GT5 has the better physics, Forza 4 just seems more grippy and less of a struggle than GT5.

Difficult =/= Better

I think (and am able to use examples and tests to support) that FM4 overall does a better job of recreating the physics of vehicle dynamics. GT5 misses too many basics to put it ahead of FM4, maybe GT6 will have fixed those, it will be interesting to see, but right now the basic tyre and suspension model that we have is quite a way behind FM4's.

 

[HBK]

If I may, I for one would be quite interested in listening (well, reading) your opinion about the weak points of FM4 physics, Scaff.

I don't remember having read your opinion on the subject.

I myself feels the main issue about FM4 physics is in regard to the suspension model. It feels like the car suspension can absorb pretty much anything the track throws at it. Like some kind of "magic" super-suspension.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

How wonderfully vague. Which ones and what is your experience of them?

I think it really doesn't matter, I must have said about it a few times already and if I have much more experience, I don't think it will really matter considering how easily you dismiss Tiff's comments.

Not if that feedback shouldn't be there in the first place (primary ride) or is wrong (SAT), both real world factors that are not correctly implemented in GT5s FFB (and one is a product of the physics model). So given that you are using real world factors as your benchmark please explain exactly why I should feel primary ride via the steering in the real world and why (please use the SAT graph) SAT stays the same when the slip angle limit is reached. GT5 does both of these things and I would like you to use real world factors to explain why that should be the case (after all I have repeatedly explained why it shouldn't - so counter with something other than your opinion - its time to back it up with substance).

So steering feel going light with T500RS when understeering full lock is wrong going by SAT? I have already mentioned why it is better, Kaz explains intention of FFB: “let users truly feel the emotions experienced by drivers on real racing circuits.” I think it does a very good job at that and that is why many might prefer it than games that have less feedback. The FFB wheels for these games seem to be designed to be able to have extra effects, the one on Cruden Simulator is more like how it would be on a real car and seems to have that SAT thing nailed. Also as it has motion feedback, it is more suiting to have such steering feel but even on the low end scale, you are talking over £100K to get one of them setups.

Which has what to do with anything?

Well you were talking about providing a list of drivers which would be as of much use. If GT5 is so different to what happens in real life, it should have been very difficult for them to drive so well quickly with most likely a few hours on it. The feedback that Sebastian Vettel provides for example about X2010 is also what I think of the car when I drove it for the first time. He also attended that Red Bull Gridsters and beat Red Bull’s professional racing gamer at that event with the X2010 with CSR Elite and being only allowed a few laps at it live. The gamers at that event didn’t really have anything but bad to say regarding Forza 4 from what I remember.

I keep telling you because you keep ignoring what I am saying, as for GT5's visual feedback, well PD themselves have shown the shortcomings in it. The visual side of bodyroll and low frequency damper movement have always been an issue with GT5, an area that PD are now addressing.

As for the Tiff review, you seem to be forgetting that was driven with all the FM driving aids switched on! Oh and SAT reduction is felt during understeer not oversteer, but of course your 'real world factors' should have made you aware of that, so its odd you got them mixed up (or are you just grabbing at straws now).

You seem to be doing that. Visual feedback while driving is good in GT5. There are a lot of things that can be improved in GT games and that will be done so for many decades yet (Well as long as franchise is still going).

So ABS and TCS transforms Forza steering feedback to very poor then? Most cars have TCS and ABS now too so it is a big problem to have if it is down to them driving aids. He also said that GT5 is best for realism out of games he tried.

Maybe you are grabbing at straws now when I didn’t mention SAT regarding oversteer although it is quite a common habit of yours to trying to assign an opinion one does not hold.

How can SAT be better magically due to a wheel when PD haven't modeled it correctly due to the issues that exist with the current tyre model (and yes I have tried a T500RS, and the Fanatec range,etc).

Once again you are equating what GT5 does as being real simply because you like it. People liking stuff doesn't make it natural or real, and that will not change regardless of the number of times you say it.

So did you do an understeer test with T500RS and feel it go lighter? Sure it is not spot on, but it is much better at it than my G27 is. Best wheel for that kind of effect was the one on Cruden Simulator I used.

Really, so you've driven GT6?

When did that happen exactly?

Jordan quite clearly says that the feedback of grip transition is clearly better than in GT5, no doubt due to the new tyre and suspension model, but what would he know, he only drove GT6, your interpretation from watching the video is of course much more accurate and valid.

Yes, a few GT6 demo builds yesterday.

Again trying to assign my opinion as meaning something else I see.

I do agree with Ali's words on this - while it isn't how it is in reality, it feels more natural because we make the adjustments in our brain. Or maybe he meant something else...

Yes this is what I meant.

 

[another_jakhole]

Since the use of a steering wheel is a big factor in this...
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=15859760&postcount=1

A four year old post about a wheel just as old?

A steering wheel is a big factor only in the user's interactions with the physics engine. It has an effect on the steering (versus a pad) - as both games have buffers in place for pad drivers - but the basic formulas and calculations of a physics engine should not be affected by our feedback. Only our inputs.

A four year old post or not, the 360 is still the same though.


I believe it's worth noting. It's not a be-all end-all post.

POST ON FORZA FORUMS FROM GUY WHO WORKS ON THE WHEELS:
MS is using a special USB and input protocol (XID) but more important they decided to use a completely different method of generating FF effects.

On the PC or PS3 FF effects are created in the console and the console only sends out Force commands to the motor (left, right and how strong). This consumes some CPU power.

Therefore MS decided to put a lot of pre-defined FF commands into the IC of the wheel and the console sends something like ("play FF effect #24" = "shaking while driving over rough surface").

This allows the game developer to use more CPU power for graphics and other stuff. And actually the very first FF controllers on PC were using this method as well.

So far the the theory. As programming such commands is difficult for the game developers there is a tendency that many game developers go back using the same force effects as on the PC as a simple Force effect is also just a command (e.g. "play FF effect #1" = "move wheel to left").

But FF is relatively new to the 360 so I am sure that Turn10 will implement it on Forza3 even better than on Forza 2.

MS is charging reasonable royalties but the investment into developing new electronics is huge and also tricky. And there is absolutely no way to make an existing wheel work. Period.

The co-operation with MS is really great and they support us a lot so we will be able to show you a working sample of our wheel with mass production electronics around Christmas."
http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/fo...d.aspx#2145277

Although everything above is somewhat connected to compatibility of current Logitech's lineup to X360, the most important piece of information remains this 2 sentences:

Quote:
"The Xbox 360 features controller and force feedback architectures (XID, device-based force feedback playback) that are significantly different from the way our wheels work on PC, PS2, or PS3 (HID, host-based force feedback playback). It is not possible to enable Xbox 360 functionality with a software or firmware update."
and this:
Quote:
MS is using a special USB and input protocol (XID) but more important they decided to use a completely different method of generating FF effects. On the PC or PS3 FF effects are created in the console and the console only sends out Force commands to the motor (left, right and how strong). This consumes some CPU power. Therefore MS decided to put a lot of pre-defined FF commands into the IC of the wheel and the console sends something like ("play FF effect #24" = "shaking while driving over rough surface").
So, does it mean that any "new" X360 wheel is in fact going to be more-less the same as current MSS Force Feedback wheel in terms of overall feedback technology?

And in the end, does it mean that new Fanatec 911 Turbo - despite it's more than welcomed build/support/cosmetic features such as overall build quality (leather, metal..), clutch pedal and various features support - can't actually offer any real improvement in the most important field - force feedback effect?

Once more I have to stress I'm not discussing COMPATIBILITY ISSUES here - this thread is only related to force feedback effect implementation as we know it from other platforms on X360 and upcoming 911 Tubo S wheel.

I know answer will not come until some with real expertise do not actually try the new wheel with Forza 3 (someone who can really judge the predictable improvement) but hardware/software limitations mentioned above makes me feel skeptical.

Should I be skeptical? All further insights and opinions are more than welcomed.

 

[RPM Bibblefish]

Please don't presume to tell me why I think what I "think". Maybe I was making a poor choice of words, but that is how I can compare the mathematics to the sensory (atm).

I realize that the subject of this thread is not the same thing as 'the overall experience'. The physics engine may be more accurate, but that is the only subject of discussion here - which I was deviating from.

All i'm saying is it seems as though it's impossible for anyone to qauntify their remarks with anything based in reality about how GT5 has a better physics engine than FM4

It's always the same thing and you've done it again yourself with this little snipet 'the mathematics to the sensory' .......What exactly does that mean?

 

[H3avyM3tal]

All i'm saying is it seems as though it's impossible for anyone to qauntify their remarks with anything based in reality about how GT5 has a better physics engine than FM4

It's always the same thing and you've done it again yourself with this little snipet 'the mathematics to the sensory' .......What exactly does that mean?

It means that none of us here have access to the mathematics going on in either game, yet we use visual ques and physical feedback to say which is more realistic. If there was a 100% right answer on this matter, this thread would have died after a couple of pages.

It is still a very limited piece of software that we can address with a fraction of the processes going on when driving a real car.

 

[Scaff]

I think it really doesn't matter, I must have said about it a few times already and if I have much more experience, I don't think it will really matter considering how easily you dismiss Tiff's comments.

So steering feel going light with T500RS when understeering full lock is wrong going by SAT? I have already mentioned why it is better, Kaz explains intention of FFB: “let users truly feel the emotions experienced by drivers on real racing circuits.” I think it does a very good job at that and that is why many might prefer it than games that have less feedback. The FFB wheels for these games seem to be designed to be able to have extra effects, the one on Cruden Simulator is more like how it would be on a real car and seems to have that SAT thing nailed. Also as it has motion feedback, it is more suiting to have such steering feel but even on the low end scale, you are talking over £100K to get one of them setups.

So basically your unable to answer the questions I asked and I didn't say "steering feel going light with T500RS when understeering full lock is wrong going by SAT" at all.

Oh and you think its does a very good job of “let users truly feel the emotions experienced by drivers on real racing circuits.” but have no frame of personal reference on which to base what you think (apart from vague real world factors that you are not able to explain).

Well you were talking about providing a list of drivers which would be as of much use. If GT5 is so different to what happens in real life, it should have been very difficult for them to drive so well quickly with most likely a few hours on it. The feedback that Sebastian Vettel provides for example about X2010 is also what I think of the car when I drove it for the first time. He also attended that Red Bull Gridsters and beat Red Bull’s professional racing gamer at that event with the X2010 with CSR Elite and being only allowed a few laps at it live.

People who are paid by Sony and PD to talk about how good a product is, I'm sure they had no opportunity to try it out before hand at all.

Its about as unbiased as asking any driver who is promoting a game how good it is.

The gamers at that event didn’t really have anything but bad to say regarding Forza 4 from what I remember.

Citation required please.

You seem to be doing that. Visual feedback while driving is good in GT5. There are a lot of things that can be improved in GT games and that will be done so for many decades yet (Well as long as franchise is still going).

Then please provide an example, a video of a Jensen from GT5 and a real one, show us example how good the suspension modeling is in comparison to the real deal.

So ABS and TCS transforms Forza steering feedback to very poor then? Most cars have TCS and ABS now too so it is a big problem to have if it is down to them driving aids. He also said that GT5 is best for realism out of games he tried.

I makes a rather big difference as to how the car behaves on both GT and FM.

Maybe you are grabbing at straws now when I didn’t mention SAT regarding oversteer although it is quite a common habit of yours to trying to assign an opinion one does not hold.

So why the hell did yo mention it then?

So did you do an understeer test with T500RS and feel it go lighter? Sure it is not spot on, but it is much better at it than my G27 is. Best wheel for that kind of effect was the one on Cruden Simulator I used.

No wheels I have tried with GT5 has shown SAT modelled correctly.

Yes, a few GT6 demo builds yesterday.

Again trying to assign my opinion as meaning something else I see.

So you were at Silverstone yesterday then?

Edited to add - now I have seen the videos - congrats you were at Silverstone by the looks of things. In which case if we still have no torque steer off the line, then yes I am rather disappointed, it was however I believe an early build and I hope something that gets resolved as for it to still be absent would indicate that issues still remain. If you also feel that FFB is delivered in a similar manner that however would seem to be a view you differ from Jordan on.

 

[MrWednesday]

It means that none of us here have access to the mathematics going on in either game, yet we use visual ques and physical feedback to say which is more realistic. If there was a 100% right answer on this matter, this thread would have died after a couple of pages.

Is the issue the lack of a 100% right answer, or is the issue the limited real-life performance driving experience for most of the people commenting? How many of the people who say they prefer GT5 for "realism" reasons have driven a car at the limit on a track?

 

[Exorcet]

I myself feels the main issue about FM4 physics is in regard to the suspension model. It feels like the car suspension can absorb pretty much anything the track throws at it. Like some kind of "magic" super-suspension.

Suspension reactions are definitely damped somewhat, both in terms of car movement and in terms of sensitivity to changes in spring rates, etc. When I first started tuning in FM4, I was overjoyed to find it much less sterile than GT, but once I got used to I saw that Turn 10 wanted to protect the inexperienced from making their car undriveable.

Another thing I've noticed is that it seems difficult to get brake lock up from constant pedal pressure on high downforce cars lacking ABS. Because of the huge downforce, the pressure where the wheels lock up is much higher at speed than it is when driving slow. When braking from max speed, you will lock up your tires if you don't compensate for this, but in Forza, I find it difficult to do.

Somewhat related to physics, but not quite, the ABS in Forza is ridiculous. It operates at a very low frequency and doesn't mind going over the limit very much at all. It might be for the sake of game balance, but this is a sim, so I don't see a place for gimped ABS.

 

[Scaff]

Suspension reactions are definitely damped somewhat, both in terms of car movement and in terms of sensitivity to changes in spring rates, etc. When I first started tuning in FM4, I was overjoyed to find it much less sterile than GT, but once I got used to I saw that Turn 10 wanted to protect the inexperienced from making their car undriveable.

Another thing I've noticed is that it seems difficult to get brake lock up from constant pedal pressure on high downforce cars lacking ABS. Because of the huge downforce, the pressure where the wheels lock up is much higher at speed than it is when driving slow. When braking from max speed, you will lock up your tires if you don't compensate for this, but in Forza, I find it difficult to do.

Somewhat related to physics, but not quite, the ABS in Forza is ridiculous. It operates at a very low frequency and doesn't mind going over the limit very much at all. It might be for the sake of game balance, but this is a sim, so I don't see a place for gimped ABS.

Both titles have issues with tuning being dumbed down to keep tunes sane, GT to a slightly greater degree than Forza, as the later will let a car hit the bump stops and has a slightly wider adjustment range.

ABS on both is 'odd' with the difference between on and off being most pronounced in GT, in which off totally changes the cars behaviour for the better, but then locks the tyres up a bit too quickly.

 

[thelvynau]

Both titles have issues with tuning being dumbed down to keep tunes sane, GT to a slightly greater degree than Forza, as the later will let a car hit the bump stops and has a slightly wider adjustment range.

ABS on both is 'odd' with the difference between on and off being most pronounced in GT, in which off totally changes the cars behaviour for the better, but then locks the tyres up a bit too quickly.

I bet you cant wait to test out the improvements in gt6.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I bet you cant wait to test out the improvements in gt6.

we'll have to see if it is even fixed, none of us have forgotten how Gt5 performs and I hope Kaz and crew realize that as GT6 was being built.