Forza 4 VS GT5 (read the first post before you contribute)

[omgitsbees]

I'm gonna add a legitimately big positive to Gran Turismo 5 here; One of the things I really like is how diverse the track selection is in GT5. Forza 4 has some real good tracks, but GT5's mix of real world, fictional and city tracks hits all of the right marks for me. I wish all of those tracks were in Forza instead, along with the FM4 ones that GT5 doesn't have. That would make it the perfect racing sim for me.

If Turn-10 does track DLC then it won't be an issue anymore, but for now, GT5 still wins hands down in the track selection.

 

[cuco33]

Oh man, I'm with you on this one 👍


lol, didn't notice that

Edit : The "tires not influencing PP" kinda makes sense in GT5's logic. Not that this logic isn't flawed mind you. But still, GT5 seems to treat tires more like some kind of "option" or "assist" than some real "car upgrade". Yeah I know, sounds weird, but that's how I understand it from how it's organized in the interface.

In my opinion, tires shouldn't be looked at as an 'assist' but rather an upgrade in every way a race exhaust, a lightweight mod, or a suspension upgrade is. Maybe they didn't incorporate PP adjustment for tires since it became too complex for the PP system? Tires are massive in my book. I upgrade all the cars I drive and I do romp on my cars (when no one is around of course, I don't put others at risk). The last set of tires I put on my Audi (Continental DWS) have allowed me to comfortably take a specific turn 6mph faster than the tires I had on before (Kuhmo Ecstas). Better tire compound, better tread, etc. It really was a night and day difference to me and these aren't even summer performance tires but rather ultra high performance all seasons (because I live in the north east where our winters can be quite rough... I did the mistake a few years ago driving on summer performance tires in the snow, NOT FUN!!! and I curbed 2 rims as a result. lol)

I'm gonna add a legitimately big positive to Gran Turismo 5 here; One of the things I really like is how diverse the track selection is in GT5. Forza 4 has some real good tracks, but GT5's mix of real world, fictional and city tracks hits all of the right marks for me. I wish all of those tracks were in Forza instead, along with the FM4 ones that GT5 doesn't have. That would make it the perfect racing sim for me.

If Turn-10 does track DLC then it won't be an issue anymore, but for now, GT5 still wins hands down in the track selection.

For me it's a mix. I like tracks in both games. I like the legacy fictional tracks in GT5 a little better as they are tracks I grew accustomed to over the years but they are like 'standards' where they don't look as good as a Rome or London circuit. I don't like Rome nor London btw even though they look great. I really like Toscana, but it could be because I lived in Italy for 9 months and had the pleasure to drive through scenic roads with those types of backdrops. I also like the fictional tracks in Forza. I just prefer real tracks though and I think Forza 4 has more of them. I love Sebring, Road Atlanta, Laguna Seca, La Sarthe (went to 24hrs of LeMans in 2007), etc... Without a doubt, Nurburgring's Nordschleife looks better in GT5 even with 2D trees and all but Forza's version is still good in my book. There's just something about GT's legacy fictional tracks that I like a lot, but it could be nostalgia or something. One mod I saw in GTR2 (have not tried it yet) was one of the GT fictional tracks. One of these days I'll try it out

 

[omgitsbees]

For the real world tracks in both games, I like the 'ring and Indy in GT5 better, but overall, FM4 has better looking real world tracks. I especially love La Sarthe in FM4, it is a beautiful track in this game, and it's my favorite race track overall. I love American circuits the most though, and FM4 fills that perfectly. Road Atlanta and Sebring are fantastic road courses.

It really helps GT5 though that it has Spa and there is the rumor that Bathurst is being added in DLC.

 

[t.o.]

I know this might be crazy talk to some of you but for me Infineon is my new "Ring". As much as I like the Ring I LOVE Infineon by far and away the best track IMO. And the funny thing is I'm not even talking about graphics or anything. Just the track is fantastic. Infineon is track crack for me.

 

[Fezz_ST]

I Agree, I loved Infineon in GT4, nice flowing track and a great midfield section

 

[omgitsbees]

I know this might be crazy talk to some of you but for me Infineon is my new "Ring". As much as I like the Ring I LOVE Infineon by far and away the best track IMO. And the funny thing is I'm not even talking about graphics or anything. Just the track is fantastic. Infineon is track crack for me.

All of the rolling hills makes it really enjoyable.

 

[Vaxxtx]

To be honest, I would give up all the tracks in both games just to have Shift2's tracks in FM4. I have said it before, and Ill say it again, no game has even come close to the tracks in S2. Even the fantasy tracks are believeable, and real world like.

On another note, the fantasy tracks in GT5 are horrible imo. Way over the top for my taste. I dont have the warm fuzzy feeling for the old tracks like some folks do in the GT series.

 

[cuco33]

I have a love/hate relationship with Cape Ring. There's sections I like, and I know it gives a more fictional feel to it like the big spiral. Then there's sections I hate like the massive Mario Kart style bunny hop. How many times did I lose it over that hump... wow... The closest thing to a hop in Forza 4 is the new Alps track full on once section there's a small dip that I went airborn for a split second. Certainly not like Cape Ring's launch status.

 

[Terronium-12]

Cape Ring is such an immense disappointment in the game. How many times was it used in A and B-spec? Thrice?

Route 7 isn't even used once. What's the point of introducing tracks that aren't integrated into the game properly? Now, that's not to say Forza is any different, because, quite frankly, it isn't. Forza 3 barely used the Viejo Full Circuit in any variation other than reverse, and I don't think 4 has used it at all... Or at least I've yet to cross it's path.

 

[Luminis]

The usage of both Fujimi Kaido and the 'Ring is super poor in Forza's career mode Not even the super lap events from FM3 are there.

 

[cuco33]

So far playing WT mode in FM4 I have only come across the 'ring twice and it was only sections, not even the full track. Haven't looked at the events list for the full 'ring but at least in rivals mode the full track is there. I just suck at it with fast cars in almost every racing game out there. I always try to race on it with the line on but on "normal sized" tracks one of the things I do right away is remove the driving line, unless I'm having big problems tuning a car for that track (mainly to see where the game tells me to start braking.

 

[driftking18594]

My biggest gripe is the annoyingly hard spec events. You're meant to be in the same cars, and yet, they seem to get magical speed boosts from nowhere! At least give us varying degrees of AI difficulty, T10!

 

[HBK]

Cape Ring is such an immense disappointment in the game. How many times was it used in A and B-spec? Thrice?

Route 7 isn't even used once. What's the point of introducing tracks that aren't integrated into the game properly? Now, that's not to say Forza is any different, because, quite frankly, it isn't. Forza 3 barely used the Viejo Full Circuit in any variation other than reverse, and I don't think 4 has used it at all... Or at least I've yet to cross it's path.

All FM3 tracks were featured in FM3's event list, with the exception of DLC tracks, "of course" (which is somewhat understandable). And all FM4 tracks are featured in FM4's event list, with the exception of the long versions of Fumiji Kaido (full, and half ribbons), which are featured in World Tour mode, and again with the exception of DLC tracks. Oh and with the exception of drag strips, but these aren't really "tracks".

Granted, some tracks are poorly featured, like P2P ribbons or full versions of the "long circuits" (namely, Fumiji Kaido, the Nurburgring, and the original Rally di Positano). But all are featured one way or another, and rather often I might add (even if it mostly has to do with the event list being so huge).

Edit : The main gripe I have with Forzas tracks is that some of them are limited to specific types of events. No standard races on P2P ribbons. No two laps races on long tracks. Ovals are strictly kept under specific oval events. Et caetera.

 

[Luminis]

Edit : The "tires not influencing PP" kinda makes sense in GT5's logic. Not that this logic isn't flawed mind you. But still, GT5 seems to treat tires more like some kind of "option" or "assist" than some real "car upgrade". Yeah I know, sounds weird, but that's how I understand it from how it's organized in the interface.

I overlooked this bit before, but I think this is spot on.

The tyres in GT5 always struck me as a DIY fix for any problems related to the cars' grip. PD never had to bother with assuring that the cars pull realistic Gs. Instead, they gave players the option to adjust it themselves. That's a huge plus with a big tyre selection as GT5's.

If it wasn't for the PI system, this would be a decent idea for T10, too. Someone's complaining about their Veyron having too much grip? Tell them to put it on those wallmart-esque comfort hard tyres, problem solved. Too bad that this isn't going to happen in FM4

 

[somebodysb2]

I despise how you can't create custom races offline. I loved getting in my 908 in GT5 for some Laguna 6 hour action. I mean..2 laps? really T10? Or maybe its just that I haven't reached a high enough level for endurance races..

 

[Northstar]

I despise how you can't create custom races offline. I loved getting in my 908 in GT5 for some Laguna 6 hour action. I mean..2 laps? really T10? Or maybe its just that I haven't reached a high enough level for endurance races..

If you have gold, you can do a private race with a full A.I. field, than set it to whatever race you want.

 

[Scaff]

I overlooked this bit before, but I think this is spot on.

The tyres in GT5 always struck me as a DIY fix for any problems related to the cars' grip. PD never had to bother with assuring that the cars pull realistic Gs. Instead, they gave players the option to adjust it themselves. That's a huge plus with a big tyre selection as GT5's.

If it wasn't for the PI system, this would be a decent idea for T10, too. Someone's complaining about their Veyron having too much grip? Tell them to put it on those wallmart-esque comfort hard tyres, problem solved. Too bad that this isn't going to happen in FM4

I hope that it never happens in FM and wish it never had in GT, the manner in which tyre grip levels are managed in GT is just unrealistic. Stick the same 'grade' of tyres on any car and you get the same level of grip (huge amounts of testing over at GT Planet has shown this repeatedly), that totally flies in the face of everything even close to logical about tyres and also strongly indicates that GT doesn't actually take the contact patch size of the tyre into account at all.

I can't stand the fact that you can stick the same tyre grade on a Nissan GT-R and a Ford Ka and the end rest is you get the same level of grip.


Scaff

 

[Killer46]

It's things like that, that make me believe GT5s physics engine is on par with PSone games. Seriously.

In the short times I've played it, it felt more like a hard Arcade game than a complex physics based game.

 

[HBK]

I hope that it never happens in FM and wish it never had in GT, the manner in which tyre grip levels are managed in GT is just unrealistic. Stick the same 'grade' of tyres on any car and you get the same level of grip (huge amounts of testing over at GT Planet has shown this repeatedly), that totally flies in the face of everything even close to logical about tyres and also strongly indicates that GT doesn't actually take the contact patch size of the tyre into account at all.

wow

I mean.

WOW

This actually explains a lot of stuff.

 

[Imari]

I hope that it never happens in FM and wish it never had in GT, the manner in which tyre grip levels are managed in GT is just unrealistic. Stick the same 'grade' of tyres on any car and you get the same level of grip (huge amounts of testing over at GT Planet has shown this repeatedly), that totally flies in the face of everything even close to logical about tyres and also strongly indicates that GT doesn't actually take the contact patch size of the tyre into account at all.

I can't stand the fact that you can stick the same tyre grade on a Nissan GT-R and a Ford Ka and the end rest is you get the same level of grip.


Scaff

What irritates me more is that as a consequence of that, cars with unequal width tyres do not have that modelled. RUFs are a nightmare to drive in GT5 simply because the game does not model them as having the massive rear tyres that they do in RL. It pretends that the tyres are the same width front and rear, and as a result the handling is...interesting.

You can force the game to "model" the car properly and put one grade higher tyres on the rear, and the car behaves much more like you would expect a rear engined car to. But should that really be necessary?

This carries over to a lot of cars to a greater or lesser extent, and means that the driving experience of those cars is in no way related to reality. Almost all supercars have fatter tyres on the rear, for example. The Super GT cars. The F1 cars.

GT5 provides a great driving experience, but it's more in spite of it's physics model than because of it.

 

[imported_JJ72]

wont say no for an option to downgrade tires in Forza, just for **** and giggles

Fm4's beauty is nothing is botched in the physics engine, everything has an impact, just increase in rim diameter can change handling, forcefeedback and laptime. People who subscribe to the stereotypical GT5 fanboy knowledge on physics model dunno what they are missing, sadly.

 

[imported_SuperCobraJet]

I hope that it never happens in FM and wish it never had in GT, the manner in which tyre grip levels are managed in GT is just unrealistic. Stick the same 'grade' of tyres on any car and you get the same level of grip (huge amounts of testing over at GT Planet has shown this repeatedly), that totally flies in the face of everything even close to logical about tyres and also strongly indicates that GT doesn't actually take the contact patch size of the tyre into account at all.

I can't stand the fact that you can stick the same tyre grade on a Nissan GT-R and a Ford Ka and the end rest is you get the same level of grip.


Scaff

While GT5's tire models are certainly not what I would call great, your example isn't exactly correct either.

The lighter the car, the smaller the contact patch has to be, to get the same grip levels as a heavier car with a bigger tire.

It's things like that, that make me believe GT5s physics engine is on par with PSone games. Seriously.

In the short times I've played it, it felt more like a hard Arcade game than a complex physics based game.

This was my initial impression as well.

Its better than arcade, but I still think even with its understeer characteristics, GT4's physics are more realistic.

 

[Imari]

While GT5's tire models are certainly not what I would call great, your example isn't exactly correct either.

The lighter the car, the smaller the contact patch has to be, to get the same grip levels as a heavier car with a bigger tire.

You're right, but the example seems OK to me. In RL, maybe it turns out by chance that despite the changes in suspension geometry and everything else, the tyre width and weight differences match up in such a way that a GTR and a Ka pull the same numbers on a skidpad on the same tyres. Unlikely, but possible.

What's not possible is that every car in GT5 has these things match up so that they pull the same skidpad numbers. It's just not. Something like a GTR is designed (in terms of the tyres) to maximise grip. Something like a Ka is designed to minimise rolling resistance. A few coincidences could be expected, and maybe that's one of them. A thousand cars with the same grip level on comfort soft is not.

GT5 doesn't have a tyre model in the sense that they're trying to replicate how a real tyre behaves. GT5 has a number for lateral grip that is apparently completely independent of the physical properties of the car the tyre is attached to.

 

[I'm Motarded]

wow

This actually explains a lot of stuff.

Yeah, for me too. One thing being why tyre pressure adjustment is out. Maybe 1/2 of tyre pressure is contact patch related (the other half being heat cycle) if contact patch isn't being simulated there isn't much point in adjusting tyre pressure.

It's things like that, that make me believe GT5s physics engine is on par with PSone games. Seriously.

I personally wouldn't go that far. but I've always wondered about the standard cars. I mean if PD didn't bother to update the graphics, did they bother to update the suspension modeling? I do doubt this very much. And if they didn't it means all 800 would have had to have been spot on in the previous games. Again something I doubt

 

[PzR Slim]

I know this might be crazy talk to some of you but for me Infineon is my new "Ring". As much as I like the Ring I LOVE Infineon by far and away the best track IMO. And the funny thing is I'm not even talking about graphics or anything. Just the track is fantastic. Infineon is track crack for me.

Me too. I absolutely loved it from the minute I raced it.

 

[Scaff]

While GT5's tire models are certainly not what I would call great, your example isn't exactly correct either.

The lighter the car, the smaller the contact patch has to be, to get the same grip levels as a heavier car with a bigger tire.

For a base static frictional co-eff yes (and even then its unlikely to result in the same level of available grip) , thrown in lateral-g and a whole load of other factors get thrown in such as the width of the contact patch and sidewall ratio (which will result in the degree of lateral and longitudinal deformation of the tyre that occurs), hell if we are talking real world here then even the depth of the treadblocks will play a factor.

However even if you were to throw the exact same tyre compound on a GT-R and a Ka and then corrected for weight, wheelbase, etc to ensure the same static frictional co-eff you still would not get identical lateral g on a skidpan, and that's what happens in a lot of cases in GT5.

for any specific tire type, the '02 Mini Cooper has the same amount of lateral grip as the '09 Corvette ZR1!

From the linked thread on GT Planet.

Now a Cooper S should be 0.85g and the ZR1 1.07g which would mean CM are "real" for the Cooper S and SM are 'Real' for the ZR1, now that alone I could accept. That is until you put SM on a Cooper S and now get the same lateral grip level as a ZR-1, because that's just bloody silly.


Scaff

 

[BlueSky]

I know this might be crazy talk to some of you but for me Infineon is my new "Ring". As much as I like the Ring I LOVE Infineon by far and away the best track IMO. And the funny thing is I'm not even talking about graphics or anything. Just the track is fantastic. Infineon is track crack for me.

I agree with this completely! Infineon grew on me to become my favorite track as well. The elevation changes, etc... it's just fantastic! My favorite section of track in Infineon Long is from turn 7 through 11. I love ripping through that portion of the track! It's my "go to" track for testing and tuning.

 

[cuco33]

I think the perfect game would be a mixture of the two. Have the tire physics incorporate size and width (and rim weight of course) AND have more variations in tires and tire compounds. Also, a must for me would be that any PP/PI rating would have to take the tire size and compound into effect, something FM4 does and GT5 does not. More options would allow us to fine tune things and hone in on more accurate configuration compared to real life.

 

[ShylockHolmes]

If it wasn't for smoke and mirrors GT5 would have no physiscs at all

 

[Spagetti69]

GT5's smoke doesn't show in the mirrors though?