Forza 4 VS GT5 (read the first post before you contribute)

[Fezz_ST]

GT5's smoke doesn't show in the mirrors though?

 

[Luminis]

I hope that it never happens in FM and wish it never had in GT, the manner in which tyre grip levels are managed in GT is just unrealistic. Stick the same 'grade' of tyres on any car and you get the same level of grip (huge amounts of testing over at GT Planet has shown this repeatedly), that totally flies in the face of everything even close to logical about tyres and also strongly indicates that GT doesn't actually take the contact patch size of the tyre into account at all.

I can't stand the fact that you can stick the same tyre grade on a Nissan GT-R and a Ford Ka and the end rest is you get the same level of grip.


Scaff

It might have come across wrong; I didn't mean to say that Forza should do exactly that. I still want the game to take the car's contact patch into account, of course, as well as all the other things.

I just want to have as many tyre choices, so that there would be more possibilities to get the grip closer to the level of the actual car, if it happens to be off for the car's respective standard tyre choice.

That would shut a lot of people up, at the very least

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I personally wouldn't go that far. but I've always wondered about the standard cars. I mean if PD didn't bother to update the graphics, did they bother to update the suspension modeling? I do doubt this very much. And if they didn't it means all 800 would have had to have been spot on in the previous games. Again something I doubt

This actually came up prior to GT5's release, but I've never gotten around to testing it thoroughly. It's safe to assume the new physics engine in GT5 has far more variables in it than GT4, or even Prologue. Cars built for the new game (Premiums) would take advantage of this larger amount of values, hypothetically making the physics of the specific car more accurate. However, carry-over models like, say, the E46 M3, were created when the physics engine took care of less variables. Did PD do some research and plug all those holes with real values? Did they fudge them? Do Standards even run on the exact same physics engine as Premiums, or on a scaled-down one? It's hard to find a decisive answer without actually being a part of PD's team.

 

[omgitsbees]

The new GT5 patch claims to improve the racing sound effects. It will be interesting to see how big of a difference it is. We might have to come back here next week and discuss the sound debate again.

 

[Terronium-12]

I doubt that.

Don't get me wrong, actually, no, that's exactly what I mean - I doubt that.

 

[omgitsbees]

I doubt that.

Don't get me wrong, actually, no, that's exactly what I mean - I doubt that.

Hahah, fair enough. That's kinda been my reaction to this as well. There is no way it'll match Forza 4, that's for sure.

 

[Wolfe]

It's safe to assume the new physics engine in GT5 has far more variables in it than GT4, or even Prologue. Cars built for the new game (Premiums) would take advantage of this larger amount of values, hypothetically making the physics of the specific car more accurate. However, carry-over models like, say, the E46 M3, were created when the physics engine took care of less variables. Did PD do some research and plug all those holes with real values? Did they fudge them? Do Standards even run on the exact same physics engine as Premiums, or on a scaled-down one? It's hard to find a decisive answer without actually being a part of PD's team.

When I rented GT5 I could feel that the Standards were lifeless compared to the Premiums, with more generic handling manners. I drove a TVR (Standard) and it understeered worse than a stock BMW 135i (Premium IIRC). It didn't surprise me, for exactly the things you mention.

 

[Luminis]

The new GT5 patch claims to improve the racing sound effects. It will be interesting to see how big of a difference it is. We might have to come back here next week and discuss the sound debate again.

Meh. Looking at how things went to so far, they'll probably add more bass to the vacuum cleaners across the board and replace the 'boonk' collision sound with a 'tooonk' collision sound...

When I rented GT5 I could feel that the Standards were lifeless compared to the Premiums, with more generic handling manners. I drove a TVR (Standard) and it understeered worse than a stock BMW 135i (Premium IIRC). It didn't surprise me, for exactly the things you mention.

It really isn't suprising... I mean, I avoided the standard cars like the plaggue, so I have no first hand experience there, or at least not much. However, it does seem very possible that PD just filled the missing variables for the new pphysics engine on the fly.

Not that T10 didn't do so for some cars... But, given the attention that the standard cars seemed to have received from PD, I could imagine that they just used a random number generator for that.

 

[newbielives]

Hey Scaff I could be wrong but I remember reading that you were/are a racing instructor?
Would you teach someone to drive on GT5 or Forza4 before heading out to the track in real life?

I hope that it never happens in FM and wish it never had in GT, the manner in which tyre grip levels are managed in GT is just unrealistic. Stick the same 'grade' of tyres on any car and you get the same level of grip (huge amounts of testing over at GT Planet has shown this repeatedly), that totally flies in the face of everything even close to logical about tyres and also strongly indicates that GT doesn't actually take the contact patch size of the tyre into account at all.

I can't stand the fact that you can stick the same tyre grade on a Nissan GT-R and a Ford Ka and the end rest is you get the same level of grip.


Scaff

 

[Scaff]

Hey Scaff I could be wrong but I think remember reading that you were/are a racing instructor?
Would you teach someone to drive on GT5 or Forza4 before heading out to the track in real life?

I've worked in training in the motor industry for around 18 years and while I now work on the team management side of things (for an automotive DMS supplier) I used to deliver a lot of training on the dynamics of car behaviour and train dealer staff and customers on driving techniques.

I've used GT3 in the past to illustrate the basics of how cars behave prioir to taking people on track, and would certainly (in the same position) use GT5 or FM4. However in all cases it would be with massive warnings about the differences that exists,.



Scaff

 

[imported_SuperCobraJet]

For a base static frictional co-eff yes (and even then its unlikely to result in the same level of available grip) , thrown in lateral-g and a whole load of other factors get thrown in such as the width of the contact patch and sidewall ratio (which will result in the degree of lateral and longitudinal deformation of the tyre that occurs), hell if we are talking real world here then even the depth of the treadblocks will play a factor.

However even if you were to throw the exact same tyre compound on a GT-R and a Ka and then corrected for weight, wheelbase, etc to ensure the same static frictional co-eff you still would not get identical lateral g on a skidpan, and that's what happens in a lot of cases in GT5.



From the linked thread on GT Planet.

Now a Cooper S should be 0.85g and the ZR1 1.07g which would mean CM are "real" for the Cooper S and SM are 'Real' for the ZR1, now that alone I could accept. That is until you put SM on a Cooper S and now get the same lateral grip level as a ZR-1, because that's just bloody silly.


Scaff

Your basic point is well taken.
I don't disagree, PD is using a "one size fits all", grip model and it is not very realistic.

As far as identical, this would rarely be the case, particularly with stock suspensions.

As you point out, variance in grip from car to car is a complex combination of many factors.

Once a given tire is on a given car, grip is an equation of track conditions, tire pressure, and suspension and downforce settings.

FM4 does a much better job of accounting for these factors, and they are practically non-exsistant in GT5.

 

[HBK]

However in all cases it would be with massive warnings about the differences that exists.

I think some of us wouldn't mind if you developed that point

 

[artboy76]

I think some of us wouldn't mind if you developed that point

Do you really need it spelling out?

 

[Vaxxtx]

I think some of us wouldn't mind if you developed that point

I can help I bet.

Difference number 1:

Hitting a wall at 110mph in Forza 4 ruins your paintjob, engine, and body work. You have to limp to the pits.

Hitting a wall at 110mph in GT5 produces so much heat it melts your front bumper, but you can keep going.

Hitting a wall at 110mph in real life actually hurts your body. You may or may not live.

 

[UKMikey]

In real life, washing a car doesn't noticeably improve its aerodynamics.

 

[Spagetti69]

In real life, washing a car doesn't noticeably improve its aerodynamics.

Dons Jeremy Clarkson's style voice.

"Unless washing off two mating elephants with a sponge"

 

[omgitsbees]

Looking at Polyphony Digital's pathetic attempt at DLC, makes me very thankful for Turn-10. Two months of waiting and the best PD could do is another GTR, and two new unique cars? Really? I wish I could be a fly on the wall at the PD office to see exactly what goes on over there. Those guys must work like 4 hours a day at most.

 

[rocketcaron]

Polyphony need to take care of these IMO:

1-Engine and tires sound patch. Tires is fairly straightforward I guess. For engine sounds they need to concentrate on the ones they really messed up, american V8's being the obvious example here.

2-Tons of premium cars available for download. Have people vote for models and give it to them!

3-Clutch and shifter action fixed. No more On/Off switch clutch please.

4-Tire physics reworked. The Real Driving Simulator need tire pressure ajustment.


I don't know how much work this represent but this game definitely is behind the competition in these department. That would save the game from becoming obsolete and keep up with FM4. Again just my 2 cents.

 

[buickgnx88]

Speaking of wheels, I really wish you could not only paint the stock wheels (why neither game allows this, I don't know (unless it's something to do with the texture applied to the wheels, similar to how chrome wheels can't be painted)) but also use the stock wheels from other vehicles (like in GT4).

 

[imported_JJ72]

just pop over GTP and that reminded me how devoted their fanbase are, when they seem happy to pay $4 for 4 cars, which two are minor alternations and two being FWD hatches. If it is forza it will be condemned to oblivion.

While people are still saying physics is superior when the tire grip, tire wear, reverse suspension tuning, instant on/off clutch issues are still staring at their faces.

I am thankful the forza community isn't as fanatec.

 

[Terronium-12]

just pop over GTP and that reminded me how devoted their fanbase are, when they seem happy to pay $4 for 4 cars, which two are minor alternations and two being FWD hatches. If it is forza it will be condemned to oblivion.

While people are still saying physics is superior when the tire grip, tire wear, reverse suspension tuning, instant on/off clutch issues are still staring at their faces.

I am thankful the forza community isn't as fanatec.

Say what now?

 

[imported_JJ72]

I think I spell that right, didn't I?

 

[Vaxxtx]

just pop over GTP and that reminded me how devoted their fanbase are, when they seem happy to pay $4 for 4 cars, which two are minor alternations and two being FWD hatches. If it is forza it will be condemned to oblivion.

While people are still saying physics is superior when the tire grip, tire wear, reverse suspension tuning, instant on/off clutch issues are still staring at their faces.

I am thankful the forza community isn't as fanatec.

I think I spell that right, didn't I?

Fanatic. Fanatec is the wheel. But close enough.

But yeah I was reading about the new DLC for GT5 and its pathetic. The update looks good, but the DLC is laughable. And yes, people are actually thanking PD for the blessing of the DLC. Yes, I also believe Forza fans would be utterly pissed about getting 4 cars (especially one of which a GTR with already tons in the game) as a DLC for 4 bucks.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I actually loaded up GT5 today for the first time in months for actual online racing, with a few of the chat room regulars. And you know what? It was fun! With stock cars, usually shuffle races. The physics still feel simpler to me now after playing Forza (turn-in feels too quick, and the cars lack a sense of weight), but it's still very enjoyable. It feels very clinical, however - I like the general sense of driver motion in FM4, or how the view ever so subtly zooms out when you're hitting high speeds, and vignettes a bit. GT's wind noise is nice, too, though, and I like that drafting isn't "turned on" at 100mph like FM4.

The new DLC announcement has brought with it some of the more... defensive players. Comments like this:

Why are people bringing up Forza DLC? You're comparing apples and oranges. Or more accurately that's like comparing a ROLEX watch to a ROLECKS watch. Does Forza have to program physics into each car that are accurate in any way to real life? No, physics wise Forza may as well be Cruisin' USA. All they are doing is making some models and recording some sounds. Meanwhile each new car in GT5 has to be programmed with physics so that it reacts to inputs as the real life car would on any given corner.

The man-hours that go into each GT5 car, I'd be glad to bet every penny I have, is at least 15-20 times more than man-hours that go into any car for Forza.

Make it pretty clear that a large group of people who prefer GT over FM still haven't even tried the latter. Which is sad, really, because both games are good in their own different ways, but I find it's much easier to compare the two here, as the vast majority of us have played both games, something which is seeming increasingly rare.

 

[Terronium-12]

I think I spell that right, didn't I?

As vax said, close enough. You only missed the "I".

I actually loaded up GT5 today for the first time in months for actual online racing, with a few of the chat room regulars. And you know what? It was fun! With stock cars, usually shuffle races. The physics still feel simpler to me now after playing Forza (turn-in feels too quick, and the cars lack a sense of weight), but it's still very enjoyable. It feels very clinical, however - I like the general sense of driver motion in FM4, or how the view ever so subtly zooms out when you're hitting high speeds, and vignettes a bit. GT's wind noise is nice, too, though, and I like that drafting isn't "turned on" at 100mph like FM4.

The new DLC announcement has brought with it some of the more... defensive players. Comments like this:



Make it pretty clear that a large group of people who prefer GT over FM still haven't even tried the latter. Which is sad, really, because both games are good in their own different ways, but I find it's much easier to compare the two here, as the vast majority of us have played both games, something which is seeming increasingly rare.

Before today, I've never even heard of "ROLECKS", but yeah I've been dealing with that all day yesterday from people who haven't a clue what they're even talking about.

 

[Wolfe]

That GTP quote hurts my brain.

I think some of us might be mistaken -- perhaps GT5 won't hinder the series' future success at all. I guess PD only has to worry about getting GT6 out the door before global warming melts the polar icecaps and submerges their Tokyo office...that'll be a tough deadline for them to meet.

 

[artboy76]

Any driving game that cant even allow you to change your tire pressures is fundamentally flawed. Kaz races IRL he would know the importance of tire pressures, it can be after all the mods and tuning...the one deciding factor on a win or a loss....yet its not there in GT5!!!!

 

[JoeMaPampang]

Meh. Looking at how things went to so far, they'll probably add more bass to the vacuum cleaners across the board and replace the 'boonk' collision sound with a 'tooonk' collision sound...

Lolz

 

[somebodysb2]

T10 needs work on incorporating the driver animations with the car model, ie: shifter animations actually shifting the gear, not doing a weird hand movement and glitching through the knob.

 

[PzR Slim]

T10 needs work on incorporating the driver animations with the car model, ie: shifter animations actually shifting the gear, not doing a weird hand movement and glitching through the knob.

I'm sure that right at the top of their list of priorities for the next game...