Forza 5/6 vs GT6 (See First Post Before Posting)

[masonite]

There is a 60mph straight just off of a roundabout not so far from here, If I gun it down there in 2nd gear my car (FWD) torque steers quite heavily squirming about because the surface is bad (not losing grip or wheelspinning but it's not an even surface), but on the way back down from the other side I can floor it up to 60 without a hint of torque steer because the surface is very good at that end. The surface makes a massive difference.

I've said before that I have a lot of issues with the GT6 physics despite it being a very big leap over GT5, but you cannot deny the existance of torque steer when it happens on many different tracks simply because it does not happen on the most clinically flat surface in the game.

Reading over the thread and I've worded this in a way that doesn't come accross as I intended with text, typing outloud so to speak. "In many cars you will not experience torque steer on a perfectly flat surface" is what I was trying to say.

Steering requires grip, so road surface should have an effect, I agree - but the flattest surface in the game should see FWD cars prone to torque steer in real life exhibit torque steer in the game - it's caused by the force of the motor acting on the steering & suspension - regardless of road quality it should happen. It's not simply a case of one wheel having more grip than the other, it's a tugging at the wheel. The car moving left or right under wheelspin due to tyre grip is a different effect.

You're right, it's not technically torque steer. But, regardless of what the correct terminology is for a RWD car, it's still a flaw in the game's tire model.

Any of the examples I listed should not shoot directly forward if you attempt to go WOT from a dead stop, but they did in GT5 & it appears, they still do in GT6.

Yes, its a flaw, the result of creating an artificial physics model. If the model detects a slight differential in the coefficient of grip between left and right tyres even for a moment, it will be exaggerated over time. Every tyre model in every game is flawed. So is the suspension - I'd expect to see axle tramp in the mustang going WOT from a dead stop. Whether it impacts the realism of the game to a point where it's unplayable is a more important question, and needs to be asked of every game.

 

[Bigbazz]

And for your viewing pleasure, proof that it does.



You're using a gamepad, you need a wheel set to simulation mode. The game has built in aids applied when simulation mode is not used as is clearly stated in the options menu for it.

 

[ReverenceSatans]

3 minutes and 35 seconds in and not one replay shows the steering wheel on launch.

Not even going to bother watching the rest...

 

[Tornado]

And the proof in that video is...?

I already gave that example with the VW Scirocco R but it was ignored, Reverence is only interested in rear wheel drive torque steer.

You mean this:

torque steer can be easily noticed in the VW Scirocco R (though it's hard to feel through the wheel in some cars due to the GT6 weight transfer based FFB).

Torque steer isn't a measurement of force feedback response. It's the physical movement of the car laterally as throttle is applied. If it was there you would experience it even if you were playing with the steering wheel AC unplugged; or a SixAxis with no rumble.

 

[masonite]

O
A canned FFB effect is nothing special and not what this subject is about.



The way GT6 "simulates" cambers and undulations in the road is by make the cars turn down torwards them. This is why the cars spin out on these surfaces. Torque steer has nothing to do with it, it is just oversteer.

If torque steer is not what this subject is about then the term torque steer shouldn't be used. And, as mentioned above, FFB =/= torque steer


All cars turn in the direction of negative camber and away from positive camber in the road surface. Drive a macadamised road IRL and the effect is the same. It's got nothing to do with GT's version of what happens, it's what happens in real life.

 

[ReverenceSatans]

If torque steer is not what this subject is about then the term torque steer shouldn't be used.


All cars turn in the direction of negative camber and away from positive camber in the road surface. Drive a macadamised road IRL and the effect is the same. It's got nothing to do with GT's version of what happens, it's what happens in real life.

The power of torque steer can overcome slight cambers in a road surface. It doesn't ALWAYS follow it. But yes, while normally cruising a car does indeed follow a roads camber.

And torque steer covers more than just front wheel driven cars and steering wheel feedback...

 

[Bigbazz]

And the proof in that video is...?




You mean this:

Torque steer isn't a measurement of force feedback response. It's the physical movement of the car laterally as throttle is applied. If it was there you would experience it even if you were playing with the steering wheel AC unplugged; or a SixAxis with no rumble.

You feel torque steer in a FF car as the wheel gets lighter and the car moves around at the front, you can feel it through the tyres and through the wheel very easily in a FF car sometimes having to fight the wheel, less so in a powersteering car.


The proof in the video is that you can see the car torque steer on the launch, you can see the slight correction made. The difference with simulation mode is extremely important as the game autocorrects the car when it is not set on.

 

[ReverenceSatans]

The proof in the video is that you can see the car torque steer on the launch, you can see the slight correction made. The difference with simulation mode is extremely important as the game autocorrects the car when it is not set on.

There is no proof of anything since there is no cockpit view on launch

 

[Tornado]

What you "feel" is irrelevant if the car itself doesn't actually deviate from a straight path on hard acceleration.

The proof in the video is that you can see the car torque steer on the launch, you can see the slight correction made. The difference with simulation mode is extremely important as the game autocorrects the car when it is not set on.

I saw similar videos of "slight corrections" when people tried to prove GT5 had torque steer.

 

[Bigbazz]

What you "feel" is irrelevant if the car itself doesn't actually deviate from a straight path on hard acceleration. Does it?




I saw similar videos of "slight corrections" when people tried to prove GT5 had torque steer.

It does deviate from a straight path, which is what I've said all along, why would I make up and argue something that I know not to be true? The video above shows it pretty clear to me, having simulation steering mode on is the most important factor of all given the fact that the game actively corrects the car when it is not on.

 

[Tornado]

It does deviate from a straight path, which is what I've said all along, why would I make up and argue something that I know not to be true?

You would hardly be the first to do so. Again, people claimed GT5 had torque steer and outright faked videos to prove it did. Your video doesn't really prove anything because it simply shows a car moving left and right on launch. I can do myself that in GT5 and make a car look like it has torque steer; and I can show you a post where someone tried to do exactly that.

 

[Bigbazz]

You would hardly be the first to do so. Again, people claimed GT5 had torque steer and outright faked videos to prove it did. Your video doesn't really prove anything because it simply shows a car moving left and right on launch. I can do myself that in GT5 and make a car look like it has torque steer; and I can show you a post where someone tried to do exactly that.

Look, this all stems back to a casual thread about torque steer in the GT6 forum. I had been doing a lot of running in the Red Bull trying to create a top time in the car, only Saidur is to my knowledge faster... Anyway with that I made a LOT of runs in the car and every single time I had to correct the car out of a slide from torque steer on the launch, every single time.

Also, whilst racing the Scirocco (FWD) I noticed it torque steered a lot and even gave the FFB indication and feeling through the wheel to some extent. So when saw the thread I thought to myself "well yeah I've had torque steer". Then you had Reverence show up arguing that it's not there, despite many users claiming it was in to some degree. Then I'm in the Forza thread and eventually the discussion comes towards torque steer again and reverence shows up (he's been getting his feathers ruffled at people over this subject a lot) claiming that I'm lying and that it's all false.


The issue I see now is that he is a gamepad user, I don't know if simulation mode is available to him but without it on the game has additional driving aids on, there is a clear description in the settings. Don't get me wrong tho, the Corvette Stingray concept I tested at Route X did not torque steer one bit, but on other tracks I've noticed it quite a lot, a lot of people have noticed it quite a lot.

 

[TokoTurismo]

No, that just means GT6 is a complete & utter failure of a game as well.

(Using an argument someone attempted some time back about FM5's metacritic score meant it flopped.)

 

[Fezz_ST]

And for your viewing pleasure, proof that it does.



You're using a gamepad, you need a wheel set to simulation mode. The game has built in aids applied when simulation mode is not used as is clearly stated in the options menu for it.

Tell you what, get a Shelby Cobra 427 and go to Laguna Seca, put it in interior view and launch it from the start position in first and don't touch the steering, record it and I will do exactly the same in FM5 and we will settle this once and for all

 

[ReverenceSatans]

Why would you use Laguna?

 

[VXR]

I played my copy of GT6 last night, took out a Shelby 350 and a Range Rover Evoque. Why if it's an accurate simulation did the Shelby feel no more difficult to drive than the Evoque? Absolute bunkum.

 

[Fezz_ST]

Why would you use Laguna?

Because its the only way I can drive one lol

 

[I'm Motarded]

Why would you use Laguna?

Because both games have it? I doubt he could be bothered to list all the tracks the games have in common.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

So regarding X2010 video, I was turning left at the start, if I don't it will go more to the right than it shows on video. It is default replay style. Only when doing it live can you see onboards. I wonder why anyone will think I want to go right and left on start of lap where I'm trying to go my fastest. People who are doubting it, have you played much of Goodwood challenges, happens with most of the powerful FR cars. Anyway here are videos of X2010 that show the movement towards the right. If you doubt their credibility, then try yourself, if still in doubt then I don't know what to say.




Also here are two videos I just made using DS3 no steering input on launch. It is in arcade mode so anyone with game can test if you don't believe me.

 

[ImaRobot]

Does anyone have a video of a torque steer test on SSRX? Searching youtube, I only found GT5 vids.

I dont see how testing on Goodwood would provide accurate results, it seems rather bumpy and uneven.

 

[Imari]

So regarding X2010 video, I was turning left at the start, if I don't it will go more to the right than it shows on video. It is default replay style. Only when doing it live can you see onboards. I wonder why anyone will think I want to go right and left on start of lap where I'm trying to go my fastest. People who are doubting it, have you played much of Goodwood challenges, happens with most of the powerful FR cars. Anyway here are videos of X2010 that show the movement towards the right. If you doubt their credibility, then try yourself, if still in doubt then I don't know what to say.




Also here are two videos I just made using DS3 no steering input on launch. It is in arcade mode so anyone with game can test if you don't believe me.

I can't test it, I don't have a copy of GT6, before you ask.

But that start line at Goodwood doesn't look flat, it looks like there's a crown on the road. Looking at the painted start line (which is presumably straight) from the car cam you can see it.

Any car will pull to one side on a crowned road unless it's perfectly centred. Chances are that the car isn't perfectly centred on the road. Hence why SSRX is a better test. Because it's not real and it's designed to be a high speed circuit there's really good chance that PD just made it perfectly flat.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I can't test it, I don't have a copy of GT6, before you ask.

But that start line at Goodwood doesn't look flat, it looks like there's a crown on the road. Looking at the painted start line (which is presumably straight) from the car cam you can see it.

Any car will pull to one side on a crowned road unless it's perfectly centred. Chances are that the car isn't perfectly centred on the road. Hence why SSRX is a better test. Because it's not real and it's designed to be a high speed circuit there's really good chance that PD just made it perfectly flat.

So do you have torque steer videos of real life on perfectly flat surface and conditions. I think that is a problem when comparing like for like and even then GT problem might not be so much the tyre model but not having imperfections in other parts it is trying to simulate and also potentially slight movement in suspension caused by say engine and other parts. In SSRX it launches straight, I did video on Laguna Seca too so it is not just Goodwood.

 

[Akira AC]

I did it myself, even swapped the tyre type to see if there was any change but:



It has no torque steer.


I wonder what would had happened if he would have been right? since most people don't even bothered to play both games.

So do you have torque steer videos of real life on perfectly flat surface and conditions. I think that is a problem when comparing like for like and even then GT problem might not be so much the tyre model but not having imperfections in other parts it is trying to simulate and also potentially slight movement in suspension caused by say engine and other parts. In SSRX it launches straight, I did video on Laguna Seca too so it is not just Goodwood.

It doesn't apply, there is even torque steer on cars while idle in test tracks and flat surfaces (TG test track has to be flat due to it's airfield nature), so it's no a valid point, it has to steer even on even and flat surfaces.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I did it myself, even swapped the tyre type to see if there was any change but:



It has no torque steer.


I wonder what would had happened if he would have been right? since most people don't even bothered to play both games.



It doesn't apply, there is even torque steer on cars while idle in test tracks and flat surfaces (TG test track has to be flat due to it's airfield nature), so it's no a valid point, it has to steer even on even and flat surfaces.

Surfaces in real world that are used will have imperfections generally and different levels of grip. It is also unlikely you will get all four tyres on car in perfect / identical condition in construction. I think however though main problem is maybe other parts of simulation as it will only take a small amount of uneven movement in suspension caused by engine and things linked to it, for one wheel to get more traction than other.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

How often does a car ( FWD, RWD and AWD ) has torque steer when launching on a flat purpose built drag strip IRL ? I have Sendai drag event video from around 10 years ago, even modified GTRs, WRXs and RX7s on Nittos had torque steer, but not always, some launched perfectly. There's an RB26 AE86 sedan with over 700HP - on Nittos, one launch had a slight torque steer, but the last run was perfect - straight like an arrow going for 9 secs. I don't think games could simulate everything - the occurrences in real life alone have some randomness

 

[shawtyoner]

Ok, so I did my own testing and these were the results. Below are 2 vids, one FF and one FR at 2 different locations. Both showed signs of torque steer. The Alfa spun to the right, and the Focus pulled to the left. I don't know if it matters what tracks you are on or what, but TS was present for me in both instances. I generally use a wheel but for this quickie I used a controller. Simulation steering, aids off, comfort soft tires.




Sorry for crappy vids. Let me know if you want me to try any other combo.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

It will be interesting to see how much improvement PD make next-gen too. I imagine Cell CPU is being used a lot for graphical effects. Also it being in-order probably does not help them. Hopefully out-of-order CPU in PS4 helps allow more dynamic things in physics to happen. Maybe that is why you don't really see PC sims come to these now last generation of consoles as well as costs. PD seem to do a lot of data capture and correlation from reality to their game. I would imagine people working on the physics engine are more knowledgable than most on here about vehicle dynamics. Physics improvement from GT5 is a big step up from GT6 so I remain hopeful in series to shine soon and be back to its best. GT6 feels like quite a bit of their effort is not showing as it is not in the game as I imagine the new sound and AI engine, a lot of effort may have gone into that. Game as a driving / racing challenge seems they did not even bother.

 

[Imari]

So do you have torque steer videos of real life on perfectly flat surface and conditions. I think that is a problem when comparing like for like and even then GT problem might not be so much the tyre model but not having imperfections in other parts it is trying to simulate and also potentially slight movement in suspension caused by say engine and other parts. In SSRX it launches straight, I did video on Laguna Seca too so it is not just Goodwood.

Hell, if my dad still had his Alfa 164 QV I'd take a video of that. Stomp the throttle and you got a huge pull through the steering. It was a well known problem with the earlier models. Some people got it to greater or lesser degrees, and models with bigger engines tended to get it worse (I know, duh ), and Alfa explicitly made suspension changes to minimise it.

Top Gear did a bit on it with one of the hot Astras. Watch from about 7:00.



Top Gear track is about as flat as you're realistically going to get on a piece of tarmac.

The problem with all the other videos on Youtube is that you can't really see the road, everyone just focusses on the wheel. Then again, you get stuff like this:



To get that much deflection from road surface you'd need potholes or something, and you'd see the camera jumping around and the guy screaming in pain.


Not all cars do it in real life. But the ones that do are generally pretty obvious, and it's even more obvious when you've got your hands on the wheel.

RWD cars can do a similar thing, but again it's not all of them. It's down to suspension geometries and a bunch of other stuff. It's not road surface. A car that does it would do the same on the smoothest surface in the world.

That's why SSRX is good. Because we don't have seat of the pants feel to tell us when road surface is interfering with results like we do in real life, we use a known flat track. Anything that launches straight on SSRX does not have torque steer.

It's possible that it's just the cars that have been tried so far that haven't done it, but I suspect people will have tried the obvious cheap hatchbacks and powerful but primitively sprung muscle cars. Some of those *should* give you a result on SSRX, and if none of them do I'd be very suspicious of any results from other tracks. It's too easy for some slightly off traction calculations to do with bumps to spoil the whole thing.

 

[Zer0]

Ok, so I did my own testing and these were the results. Below are 2 vids, one FF and one FR at 2 different locations. Both showed signs of torque steer. The Alfa spun to the right, and the Focus pulled to the left. I don't know if it matters what tracks you are on or what, but TS was present for me in both instances. I generally use a wheel but for this quickie I used a controller. Simulation steering, aids off, comfort soft tires.

Sorry for crappy vids. Let me know if you want me to try any other combo.

Aside of SSRX, there is another track that does not show the torque steer behaviour? until the next week I can't test for myself.

Would be interesting to know what are the exceptions to draw conclusions. What is clear is that nothing of that was possible in GT5 but it's in GT6 and performs realistically when it kicks. I would not be surprised that the effect would end being more acurate in GT6 given the differences between cars, and tracks surfaces than in Forza.

 

[HAL20XX]

I would not be surprised that the effect would end being more acurate in GT6 given the differences between cars, and tracks surfaces than in Forza.

These baseless statements are my favorite! What differences would those be?