Forza 5/6 vs GT6 (See First Post Before Posting)

[Saidur_Ali]

Are you serious ? All modern cars have TCS/STM. Disabling it doesn't make it more realistic. I am sure McLaren tells their owners to use some sort of TCS/STM when driving the cars on a track. If you can't handle an McLaren P1, maybe you should try a Honda Civic or a Mazda Miata.

Forza 5 looks amazing on Xbox One. You are talking out of your arse. YT bad compression is making Forza 5 looks worse than it is. I played on an 55" THX Certified and calibrated panasonic mid-end plasma. The game looks like a next-gen game.

The aids in games generally aren't realistic implementations of what the car implements, just some generic driving aid most of the time. If I get chance to play FM5 in some form another time I will try and see telemetry to understand better why it handles like that.

Article I linked to must be also talking a load of rubbish then I take it.

 

[Bigbazz]

In defense of Saidur, he's one of the most skilled sim racing drivers around, got to the GT Academy finals, topping leaderboards in Ferrari Virtual Academy, one of the fastest in Assetto Corsa. When he sais "I cant drive it", that probably means he can't drive it to his own standards based on what he would expect from a real life comparison.

Regarding the graphics of Forza, I downloaded the high quality video from their site and It does look beautiful to me. Not as technically impressive as a PC game perhaps but a great job none the less, perhaps when you have it in your hands and playing it then opinions could change.

 

[BoneSawTX]

The aids in games generally aren't realistic implementations of what the car implements, just some generic driving aid most of the time. If I get chance to play FM5 in some form another time I will try and see telemetry to understand better why it handles like that.

Article I linked to must be also talking a load of rubbish then I take it.

Coming from me, being a person that has been playing GT since day one on the PS1 and recently switching to FM. You are on crack if you think the graphics of FM5 are bad. You're either just flat out lying about playing the game and seeing it in person or are so in love with Kaz you can't admit another game could possibly look and play better.

As for physics a direct comparison between the 2000 SS Camaro in GT vs The Forza 2002 SS vs my 2001 Z/28 which is just a different badge and hood from being an SS acts almost identical to the one in FM5. It steps out just the same and body roll were predictable for me because it does exactly what it was supposed to. GT it just slides around like a dead fish on ice, FM it actually jumped out back caught and hooked like I've done more than i cared to with mine.

 

[Symtex]

Coming from me, being a person that has been playing GT since day one on the PS1 and recently switching to FM. You are on crack if you think the graphics of FM5 are bad. You're either just flat out lying about playing the game and seeing it in person or are so in love with Kaz you can't admit another game could possibly look and play better.

As for physics a direct comparison between the 2000 SS Camaro in GT vs The Forza 2002 SS vs my 2001 Z/28 which is just a different badge and hood from being an SS acts almost identical to the one in FM5. It steps out just the same and body roll were predictable for me because it does exactly what it was supposed to. GT it just slides around like a dead fish on ice, FM it actually jumped out back caught and hooked like I've done more than i cared to with mine.

Same thing with my Mustang vs the FM5 Mustang. It reacts and body roll exactly the same. I notice that FM5 really punish you from locking the wheel while braking. You really have to adjust the deadzone on the trigger and gently press to tail brake and press 80-85% of the way to really break harder without locking.. It works wonders before attacking the corkscrew on Laguna Seca.

I don't pretend to be a great sim racer and I don't have a wheel yet for Xbox One. I am just playing with the controller and its all about throttle and break control. That should be very familiar to anyone who ever race on a track.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

In defense of Saidur, he's one of the most skilled sim racing drivers around, got to the GT Academy finals, topping leaderboards in Ferrari Virtual Academy, one of the fastest in Assetto Corsa. When he sais "I cant drive it", that probably means he can't drive it to his own standards based on what he would expect from a real life comparison.

Regarding the graphics of Forza, I downloaded the high quality video from their site and It does look beautiful to me. Not as technically impressive as a PC game perhaps but a great job none the less, perhaps when you have it in your hands and playing it then opinions could change.

Thanks, just so you know what I have said from before, here is link to post. One would imagine going at slow speed with small amounts of throttle progressively built up will be easy in such a fast car as P1, instead it drove like an undrivable mess of a car. IIRC you can't stand aliasing, FM5 suffers from it quite a bit, Digital Foundry thing I linked to before is quite informative if you want impressions of how it looks.

Coming from me, being a person that has been playing GT since day one on the PS1 and recently switching to FM. You are on crack if you think the graphics of FM5 are bad. You're either just flat out lying about playing the game and seeing it in person or are so in love with Kaz you can't admit another game could possibly look and play better.

As for physics a direct comparison between the 2000 SS Camaro in GT vs The Forza 2002 SS vs my 2001 Z/28 which is just a different badge and hood from being an SS acts almost identical to the one in FM5. It steps out just the same and body roll were predictable for me because it does exactly what it was supposed to. GT it just slides around like a dead fish on ice, FM it actually jumped out back caught and hooked like I've done more than i cared to with mine.

I just have said about aliasing and texture quality of road that are not very good in-game from my post from a long time before, something I've seen mentioned about in the analysis by Eurogamer Digital Foundry too. Feel free to pick apart their article why it is wrong, I have discussed mostly Forza and mentioned before about name of game affecting some people's objectionality, if I mention issues about Forza which seem quite existent to me and for others but on here most of the time, everything is fine, it is me talking rubbish.

I just find the driving model, feeling of clunkiness and awkward movement, when braking, turning in and also countersteering.

Watching videos of it also give me the impression of it, here is couple I just saw:

 

[UKMikey]

If I'm reading the article correctly it says that the game is a graphical leap over the previous generation, just not as big as they expected. Crowds and trees come in for criticism along with the lack of anisotropic filtering on road surfaces.

Doesn't sound very damning to me and I agree with the article that future games should look even better as programmers get to grips with the console's new capabilities.

 

[Symtex]

I will capture some 1080p footage today.

 

[Scaff]

You miss the point every time, the post was specifically regarding the X2011, it's not my fault if you generalise it.

Given that you have revised the 'point' I would have ask which one is it now that I have missed.

I also did not open the door to generalisation, you did in the point I originally replied to:

"............... it's always more of an issue with long geared cars with high torque."

You might want take your own advice on the AUP, taking the thread off topic to further your own issues.

A post regarding how torque steer functions in reality in regard to gearing is not off topic in a discussion about gearing, torque steer and how GT6 implements it.

Your problem mate is that you focus too much attention on single words, like "Religion". You completely missed the context of the post and focussed on a single detail, you got your feathers ruffled over it.

I'm not your 'mate' and as such I would advise not continuing with the condensing tone.

You always do it, with every person you argue with here on these forums. Your replies to some people leave me thinking if you just don't have the ability to understand any meaning behind a post, or to understand what people are implying. You waste so much time banging on about details that are not relevant to the meaning of the conversation.

Read the post, try to understand the meaning, perspective or point of view of the poster and then reply, don't dissect small details and scrutinise single lines of text just for the sake of it, its meaningless and pointless. If you possess the intelligence to understand the meaning of a post then why is it necessary to grill a poster about something that just isn't important?

Presentation of the information wasn't unclear. Scaff is the only person who found it unclear because he's entered late into a discussion about a game that he does not own. The discussion was aimed at people who do own it and to be quite frank it was a pretty simple example, no discussion needed. When I then tried to make the information more clear to him he goes on about it not being in my original post... Well no ****, that is why I'm posting it.

Scaff is more interested in dissecting posts so he can nitpick faults with people and their posts, rather than focussing on the topic at hand, he's probably more than capable of understanding the meaning without further explanation but chooses not to so that he can attempt to put himself above the poster by picking apart posts.

What happens then is you get 3 pages of meaninglessly nitpicking in offtopic drivel..

So once again rather than actually answer the perfectly reasonable questions I have asked you simply continue with the personal digs and condescending attitude.

Its an approach I have already asked you politely to stop, that you have continued to do so leaves little choice but to move it to a warning (please see your in-box).

Moving forward you have two choices, you can either continue the discussion in line with the AUP or you can continue to ignore it and face the resulting consequences. The choice rests entirely with you.

 

[Bigbazz]

If you did not want me to reply and intend to delete my replies then why not reply to me in private with the above post? What purpose does it serve being in the public if public discussion is not part of your intention?

 

[Scaff]

If you did not want me to reply and intend to delete my replies then why not reply to me in private with the above post? What purpose does it serve being in the public if public discussion is not part of your intention?

You were clearly given two options in regard to the way this would move forward, as such if you continue in this vein then I will take it that you have chosen the latter.

If you are not happy with the moderation action then discuss it (via PM) with a member of the admin team.

 

[Symtex]

as promised. 2 laps with a Ferrari 512TR in 1080p. Looks on how the hood in bouncing as the car body roll.

 

[McLaren]

GT6's metascore matches FM5's now! Scored 81! Looks like both games now made a tie this gen, so both sides can now be friends, pretty please?
http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-3/gran-turismo-6

No, that just means GT6 is a complete & utter failure of a game as well.

(Using an argument someone attempted some time back about FM5's metacritic score meant it flopped.)

 

[ReverenceSatans]

The discussion was aimed at people who do own it and to be quite frank it was a pretty simple example,

A completely false and incorrect "example".

 

[Bigbazz]

A completely false and incorrect "example".

You said that it's false because Goodwood is on uneven surface, because that is what is causing the torquesteer in the Red Bull and other cars there. But uneven surface is one of the most common causes of torquesteer in a real car. You mention that it does not simulate torquesteer on a perfectly flat surface, but on a perfectly flat surface you would not experience torque steer in many cars.

One of the missing factors in GT6 is the simulation of tyre deformation, something that is also missing in most simulations. I believe only NetKar Pro and Rfactor 2 simulate this properly. So if you're in the situation of being in a car with equal tyre pressures left/right, even suspension geometry and a perfectly flat/even surface, with no allignment issues or unbalances from left/right on the car, and along with that your tyre model does not simulate deformation for inconsistancies in the tyre structure to be the cause then there will be no torque steer.

If however in this situation there was torque steer considering the above factors then it would be a "canned" effect. GT6 does create torque steer on many circuits and in many situations but you are right I tested it and it does not work at Route X, but considering the facts then that should not be surprising.

 

[ReverenceSatans]

You said that it's false because Goodwood is on uneven surface, because that is what is causing the torquesteer in the Red Bull and other cars there.

The car doesn't even slide under acceleration. That is why your example is completely false and incorrect.

But uneven surface is one of the most common causes of torquesteer in a real car.

No, it isn't...

You mention that it does not simulate torquesteer on a perfectly flat surface, but on a perfectly flat surface you would not experience torque steer in many cars.

Any high powered rear wheel drive car would get torque steer on a flat and level surface. Not a single car out of 1200 does in GT6.

One of the missing factors in GT6 is the simulation of tyre deformation, something that is also missing in most simulations. I believe only NetKar Pro and Rfactor 2 simulate this properly. So if you're in the situation of being in a car with equal tyre pressures left/right, even suspension geometry and a perfectly flat/even surface, with no allignment issues or unbalances from left/right on the car, and along with that your tyre model does not simulate deformation for inconsistancies in the tyre structure to be the cause then there will be no torque steer.

First of Forza has simulated tyre deformation since FM2 (became visual in FM3) and that is why the oft quote "unconnected" feeling comes from. It's because people don't know how much cars move around on their own tyres.

And no, tyre deformation is not the main cause of torque steer, hell, even A cause of it...

 

[Bigbazz]

The car doesn't even slide under acceleration. That is why your example is completely false and incorrect.



No, it isn't...



Any high powered rear wheel drive car would get torque steer on a flat and level surface. Not a single car out of 1200 does in GT6.

The rear of the car steps out on the launch causing you to need to correct it by steering into it, the Red Bull will do this every single time at Goodwood. Uneven surfaces are one of the most common causes of torque steer, this is common knowledge, even your driving instructor will tell you this when you're learning to drive.

I think the issue here is more your lack of understanding of the topic. Go do some research on the subject, take it a bit further than Wikipedia too.

And no, tyre deformation is not the main cause of torque steer, hell, even A cause of it...

Where did I say tyre deformation was the main cause of torque steer? Did you even read the post? Bah, I can't be bothered with you anymore.

 

[Tornado]

I could fake torque steer in GT5 by getting on bumpy tracks and leaving the wheel straight until outside forces spun the car. That still wasn't torque steer either, because on a flat track it would still do this:

I think the issue here is more your lack of understanding of the topic. Go do some research on the subject, take it a bit further than Wikipedia too.

If you're under the assumption that "on a perfectly flat surface you would not experience torque steer in many cars" I think you should take your own advice.

 

[Bigbazz]

I could fake torque steer in GT5 by getting on bumpy tracks and leaving the wheel straight until outside forces spun the car. That still wasn't torque steer either, because on a flat track it would still do this:





If you're under the assumption that "on a perfectly flat surface you would not experience torque steer in many cars" I think you should take your own advice.

My own car does not torque steer on surfaces that are quite a bit from "perfectly flat".

Root causes for torque steer are:[1]

• Incorrect sidewall ply design allowing deformation of the tire sidewall.[2]
• Asymmetric driveshaft angles due to any combination of
  • Unequal driveshaft length or diameter
  • Transient movement of the engine
  • Tolerances in engine mounts
  • Body roll
  • Single wheel bump
• Different driveshaft torques left to right (due to wheel bearing or differential problems)
• Suspension geometry tolerances
• Unequal traction forces due to road surface (µ-Split) in combination with kingpin offset

 

[McLaren]

Why are you still using the Redbull as your example is my question. Is it because it's such a grossly overpowered & highly sensitive vehicle that even attempting to half throttle it will cause it to careen in different directions quickly?

Even something like the Boss 302 should demonstrate torque steer easily without this continued desire to stick to using an uneven surfaced track & a fantasy car as an example.

 

[Tornado]

My own car does not torque steer on surfaces that are quite a bit from "perfectly flat".

Good for you? How is that related to the (false) statement that "on a perfectly flat surface you would not experience torque steer in many cars"?



I do like the "take it a bit further than Wikipedia too" crack that you followed up with a copy paste from Wikipedia, though.

 

[Bigbazz]

Good for you? How is that related to the (false) statement that "on a perfectly flat surface you would not experience torque steer in many cars"?



I do like the "take it a bit further than Wikipedia too" crack that you followed up with a copy paste from Wikipedia, though.

The Wikipedia copy/paste was a starting point for Reverence, not intended to be pointed at you.

Why are you still using the Redbull as your example is my question. Is it because it's such a grossly overpowered & highly sensitive vehicle that even attempting to half throttle it will cause it to careen in different directions quickly?

Even something like the Boss 302 should demonstrate torque steer easily without this continued desire to stick to using an uneven surfaced track & a fantasy car as an example.

It used because it's an easy to access example with a very obvious result. I explained in my post above why an uneven surface is important. In the real world we rarely if ever have a pefectly even surface, uneven surfaces are one of the main causes of torquesteer and in a simulation like GT6 where everything is without imperfections (suspension geometry, alignment etc) then there would be none of the requirements to create torque steer.

If you have a simulation that is capable of producing torque steer but you have none of the factors that create it (such as unequal forces) then you will not get torque steer. An uneven surface is something that will cause that inbalance/unequal force and that is why we see it on many of the tracks but not the Route X.

 

[Tornado]

An easy to access example with a very obvious result would be any FWD car with unequal length half shafts and a decent amount of torque.

 

[Bigbazz]

An easy to access example with a very obvious result would be any FWD car with unequal length half shafts and a decent amount of torque.

I already gave that example with the VW Scirocco R but it was ignored, Reverence is only interested in rear wheel drive torque steer.

 

[masonite]

An easy to access example with a very obvious result would be any FWD car with unequal length half shafts and a decent amount of torque.

^This. Why would any torque steer comparison begin with any car other than a high torque FWD car?! They're the ones that display it most prominently, if any comparison is to be made it should be with them.

 

[Bigbazz]

^This. Why would any torque steer comparison begin with any car other than a high torque FWD car?! They're the ones that display it most prominently, if any comparison is to be made it should be with them.

As I said to Tornado, I already made that point a good while back but it was ignored in favour of the discussion over rear wheel drive cars.

 

[McLaren]

It used because it's an easy to access example with a very obvious result.

No, it's an extreme example of torque steer because it uses exaggerated variables to produce it.

Take the Boss 302 or any of the AMGs to Route X & floor the car without touching the steering. The amount of torque produced by these cars should naturally cause them to go either left or right as 1 of the tires experiences an unequal amount of traction to the other. In GT5, the rear tires always acted as if both tires had an equal amount of traction causing the car to just go directly forward even with the wheels spinning wildly.

 

[masonite]

And I'd argue that in a RWD car you're not seeing torque steer, you're seeing the game create an extremely low co-efficient of grip for the rear tyres, combined with the track gradient to cause minute changes in the cars attitude. These are then magnified as the car's speed slowly increases and the attitude of the car's angle changes, whilst the co-efficient of grip remains low on the rear tyres.

On a FWD car exhibiting torque steer the track gradient should little difference to torque steer - if it's extreme, it may negate the effect or exaggerate it (in a similar way that me applying a small force of x to the steering wheel can be negated by gradient) but it doesn't actually affect the torque steer being applied to the steering wheels of the car. It's an external factor to the causes of torque steer.

No, it's an extreme example of torque steer because it uses exaggerated variables to produce it.

Take the Boss 302 or any of the AMGs to Route X & floor the car without touching the steering. The amount of torque produced by these cars should naturally cause them to go either left or right as 1 of the tires experiences an unequal amount of traction to the other. In GT5, the rear tires always acted as if both tires had an equal amount of traction causing the car to just go directly forward even with the wheels spinning wildly.

As you state in your post, it's not the torque that causes the car to steer left or right in that case,, but the minute differences in grip. The torque from the engine isn't applying any force on the steered wheels of the car, as they're not being driven.

 

[Bigbazz]

As you state in your post, it's not the torque that causes the car to steer left or right in that case,, but the minute differences in grip. The torque from the engine isn't applying any force on the steering wheels of the car, as they're not being driven.

The issue is this, in GT6 the car models/data input for them have no imperfections, meaning the car is totally balanced left and right, and the tyre model does not simulate deformation (something that is very relevant in old tall sidewall tyres). So you have a situation where the cars are perfectly balanced in game where there will always be minor tolerences in the real world.

The simulation results in the car going perfectly straight because factors are missing from the simulation (imperfections/unequal forces/tolerences in chassis, suspension, tyres etc). But the uneven surface introduces these factors (which are not car specific as in the real world) and causes what we commonly know as torque steer.

There is a 60mph straight just off of a roundabout not so far from here, If I gun it down there in 2nd gear my car (FWD) torque steers quite heavily squirming about because the surface is bad (not losing grip or wheelspinning but it's not an even surface), but on the way back down from the other side I can floor it up to 60 without a hint of torque steer because the surface is very good at that end. The surface makes a massive difference.

I've said before that I have a lot of issues with the GT6 physics despite it being a very big leap over GT5, but you cannot deny the existance of torque steer when it happens on many different tracks simply because it does not happen on the most clinically flat surface in the game.

Good for you? How is that related to the (false) statement that "on a perfectly flat surface you would not experience torque steer in many cars"?.

Reading over the thread and I've worded this in a way that doesn't come accross as I intended with text, typing outloud so to speak. "In many cars you will not experience torque steer on a perfectly flat surface" is what I was trying to say.

 

[McLaren]

As you state in your post, it's not the torque that causes the car to steer left or right in that case,, but the minute differences in grip. The torque from the engine isn't applying any force on the steering wheels of the car, as they're not being driven.

You're right, it's not technically torque steer. But, regardless of what the correct terminology is for a RWD car, it's still a flaw in the game's tire model.

Any of the examples I listed should not shoot directly forward if you attempt to go WOT from a dead stop, but they did in GT5 & it appears, they still do in GT6. I shouldn't have to read that a car as extreme as the Redbull can prove it's there when any of the Mustangs in the game will do or that an uneven road surface plays a significant role. All that does is increase the effect because a car breaking the rear lose as the rear tires fight for grip from a dead stop can happen on perfectly even surfaces.

That's why I told him to go to Route X & try it. If the game truly simulates this, the car should break lose without the road surface adding any influence since it's flat.

 

[ReverenceSatans]

My own car does not torque steer on surfaces that are quite a bit from "perfectly flat".

One of 5 points is un even surface but according to you it's the main one?

lol...

And unfortunately for you, I am uploading a clip of your BS claim of the red bull car getting torque steer on good wood.

3rd gear, no TC, 100% throttle, steering doesn't need to be touched.

For your viewing pleasure

^This. Why would any torque steer comparison begin with any car other than a high torque FWD car?! They're the ones that display it most prominently, if any comparison is to be made it should be with them.

A canned FFB effect is nothing special and not what this subject is about.

And I'd argue that in a RWD car you're not seeing torque steer, you're seeing the game create an extremely low co-efficient of grip for the rear tyres, combined with the track gradient to cause minute changes in the cars attitude. These are then magnified as the car's speed slowly increases and the attitude of the car's angle changes, whilst the co-efficient of grip remains low on the rear tyres.

The way GT6 "simulates" cambers and undulations in the road is by make the cars turn down torwards them. This is why the cars spin out on these surfaces. Torque steer has nothing to do with it, it is just oversteer.